Up your wormhole: Star Trek Deep Space 9 turns 20
I’ve always been strangely fascinated by Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Now celebrating its 20th anniversary - amazing how time flies, even when you’re not an agent of the Federation Department of Temporal Investigations - it’s the densest and most mythology-rich of all the Star Trek TV shows. Often ambitious and audacious, it won …
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Re: More than a B5 Ripoff
I was sick and tired of the constant DS9 / B5 comparison arguments back in the 90's - and I see nothing has changed.
Give it a rest for the love of the Prophets - they were both excellent shows.
Re: More than a B5 Ripoff
Don't forget the "The graphics for Babylon 5 were done on an Amiga!!!!!!" frothing-mouthed tedium.
Re: More than a B5 Ripoff@Phoenix50
Agreed - I always thought the comparisons between them were a bit pointless in that while similar (ignoring whether one was a ripoff of the other, as each side used that argument,) the universes they were set in were different. Trek was a universe where humanity had learned from its mistakes - granted DS9 was more 'dirty' than the other series - whereas B5's basis was pretty much that we hadn't learned.
Re: More than a B5 Ripoff
And not forgetting Bill Mumy and Pat Tallman were also in both B5 and DS9.
Re: More than a B5 Ripoff
Oh man, all those guys have died? I feel sad now.
Re: More than a B5 Ripoff
>Don't forget the "The graphics for Babylon 5 were done on an Amiga!!!!!!" frothing-mouthed tedium
I never realised that TNG's Wes Crusher (Wil Wheaton) worked for the makers of Video Toaster.
I had cause to remember another Video Toaster project, SeaQuest DSV the other day- I went to the cinema and ASUS have an advertisment in which Megan Fox talks to a dolphin (IT angle?!). Maybe it was on heroin like its fellow cetacean in Gibson's "Johnny Mnemonic"
Re: More than a B5 Ripoff
Vorlons....Definatley Vorlons....
Dont trust the noxious gas breathing, encounter suited buggers....
Re: More than a B5 Ripoff
mmmmm.... Pat Tallman ...... mmmmm
Re: More than a B5 Ripoff
One thing DS9 was not was "politically neutral". The station was embroiled in more political and politico-religious themes than all other ST TV series combined. A shaky alliance between the Federation and Bajor; Bajor nearly joining the Federation - and then not; the Circle; Kira's continual fights with the Provisional Government; the attempt at a religious takeover of the Bajoran Government; Bajor's temporary alliance with the Dominion, a terrorist bombing of a school on the station, assassinations - attempted and successful ; and even Kira's acceptance of a Starfleet commission as a Commander all have complex political overtones. With JMS' ideas about a station being "politically neutral", that's the whole difference right there. Most good science-fiction is political commentary in disguise - sometimes not so disguised; two TOS situations that stand out are the somewhat ridiculous episode "The Omega Glory", and Kirk's conversation with Scotty in "A Private Little War":
"Spock, ask Scotty how long it would take him to reproduce a hundred flintlocks."
"A hundred what?"
"A hundred ... serpents. Serpents for the Garden of Eden."
Re: More than a B5 Ripoff
And don't forget a suicide.... the scene where a Vedek throws herself off he promenade and hangs herself is the single most shocking thing I'd ever seen in any Star Trek series - a clear sign that this was a show willing to take Gene's vision to the absolute limits, and then some.
Mixed feelings
I didn't like some of the actors, notably Cisco - the way he spoke just pissed me off.
Same goes for the one with the wierd nose, she was shite.
I think the entire show would have been better if they just killed that planet of moaners with the noses.
Basically the entire show was shite - although I did watch all the seasons...
Loved the Ferengi and Odo all the same.
I'll have to downvote you,
if only because of the memory of Major Kira running round in her grubby vest, like an female, alien, John McClane...
...ooh, cold shower, please.
Since Deep Space Nine took "inspiration" from ideas punted to it my Mr Straczynski
No wonder it is more "Mythology rich" than other Star Trek series.
Though Pat Tallman should sue for what they turned Lyta into. From Psi Corp telepath and agent, into a cocktail waitress
best trek by far. But the last season was pretty poor.
I loved the episodes that used the characters without make up. The one where sisko was a jobbing sci fi short story writer was inspired.
except for the bit when Sisko went crazy
THEY'RE IN MY HEAD!!!!! THEY'RE IN MY HEAD!!!!
(and the last season was only poor because the plot over-reached the budget. They couldn't afford enough Cardassians and outdoor shots, so the thing in the Cardassian government offices and the resistance seemed very claustrophic. Legate Damar was superb, though.)
I enjoyed the show. Especially the Ferengi Quark, Rom, Nog were fun to watch, Odo brilliant, I only wish we had more episodes with Quark and Odo trying to out do each other.
An DS9 did great at combining light hearted episodes and serious and fairly dark episodes.
Elim Garak was a brilliant character.
Julian Bashire was annoying a lot of the time.
An yes it did rip of Babylon 5 a little but I think it also had a lot of things that Babylon 5 didn't.
I seriously need to rewatch both series.
If your going for a full house id Recomend adding Andromeda to the list, just went through it on netflix, only reason i signed up for the trial.
+1
Did the same myself, but it took me 5 months to get through all the seasons. Great show - apart from the season they were stuck in a void or whatever it was (The water starved system of planets). That season was shite enough. Loved the rest though.
The series was decent in season 1. But then in season 2 they lost two major characters- and added a title sequence which totally sucked...
Re: Lexa Doig
Lexa is hot, but there's far more to watch the show for than her.
Frankly, I re-watch it on a fairly regular basis because Kevin Sorbo managed to keep it more in line with Roddenberry's vision of Trek: aiming for the high ground even when it's stuck in gritty, muddy reality.
A bit Meh
Some good episodes, but mostly meh, but then i was in the B5 camp all the way, b5 was the last thing i watched with my sci fi loving parents regularly while at home, before Uni\drink\girls etc.
Re: A bit Meh
Ah, yes I too watched B5 with my Dad. :-)
Up Vote for you, sir!
I miss it, what on earth happened to Star Trek? It was designed to paint a better future and help people through dark depressing times!
Whatever you do don't read the 24th century Star Trek relaunch books. It's some of the most depressing, dark sci-fi I've ever read. It makes Iain M. Banks' Culture books read like comedy gold.
Yeah, Star Trek never fully uses their tech for hedonism like the citizens of the Culture... using the transporter to exchange gasses in your lungs whilst you bath in a zero-G sphere of oil, for example. Although both Star Trek and Bank's feature tech-enhanced extreme sports (orbital sky-diving and lava-flow rafting, for example).
A habitat's AI's appeal to a party guest "Please tell the ambassador that he is talking into a broach" (Look to Windward) seems a gentle dig at TNG's communicator.
Exactly. DS9 fans don't wish to hear it but DS9 started the death knell of Star Trek. Check the Neilsen ratings if you don't wish to believe - DS9's dark tone did not sit well with classic Star Trek viewers (like myself, for example) and we left in droves. B&B, and their [new ST] fan supporters always gave it some type of spin to avoid the reality - blaming the crowded airwaves, excessive sci-go competition, etc., but the fact is that classic ST fans didn't want a dystopian future on their screens.
I got very into B5 at that time. Great storytelling and even better acting from Katsulas and Jurasik. Avery Brooks'
...constant
...staccato
...delivery
turn so freaking annoying that after a while I simply couldn't stand watching. scene where he appeared. Brooks had two modes of acting - staccato or angry - and both got too annoying to watch.
Although I must say, the DS9 episode "Duet" is probably one of the very best dramas ever broadcast on SD television.
@Snake
I actually like Brooks and some of the episodes in the series. I'd say the truth of the matter is it started going downhill with season 1 of Next Gen, but managed to recover after they booted Roddenberry far enough upstairs that he didn't really affect the show. But they over corrected in DS9, jumped the shark in Voyager, and went Rod Serling with Enterprise. Enterprise was probably the most disappointing because Bakula is a good actor and I loved him in Quantum Leap. But even a great actor can only do so much to save a show where none of the writers or producers actually care about the original on which it is based.
Klingons
Time for a new Trek series based on Klingons...
Lots of fighting, battles and a lot less of Holo-Suite / Holodeck stories.
Oh dear DS9
Always considered DS9 as Star Trek meets Little House on the Prairie.
Far too much considering the thoughts of others and Voyager continued the politically correct business.
There where some decent episodes and plot lines but not quite enough.
Babylon 5 managed to have the plots which attracted me.
Re: Oh dear DS9
"Always considered DS9 as Star Trek meets Little House on the Prairie."
Yup, DS9 was a cross between a panto and Eastenders. Every time i caught it on its origional run it was an utter soapy snoozefest. It was like all the shit episodes of TNG (Worfs son troubles, Troi`s mothers romances etc) bought together in a boring soap opera, with a few spaceships and a neon Queen Vic thrown in.
Take away the spaceships and the stupid looking aliens and it could be a whimsical drama set in the Cotswalds or any generic soap type thing.
Voyager was much better, more action, less soap (although still too much).
Babylon 5 might have been the best thing ever, but I couldnt get past the wooden acting and sub-par special effects.
Firefly,Serenity,Lexx,Andromeda and all the other low budget American scifi miniseries are also pretty crap.
The Battlestar reboot was ok, although the space battles looked more like a game cutscene than proper footage (compare the solidness of the models in the 70`s version to the rendered ones in the reboot). Also, having human looking cylons is a budget saving cop out.
Re: Oh dear DS9
"Firefly,Serenity,Lexx,Andromeda and all the other low budget American scifi miniseries are also pretty crap."
Firefly was all kinds of awesome. Serenity was a film not a mini-series. Heretic! :-p
Penrith Motorway Services... IN SPACE!
Was there an episode about running out of Ginster's pasties and the diesel being ridiculously expensive, or was that an actual visit to a services?
Re: Penrith Motorway Services... IN SPACE!
I'd have thought that Forton Services was a closer visual match.
DS9 was really good and I enjoyed it but I say B5 is way better.
I never could really get into the swing of things. The 'suspension of disbelief' never worked for me. I could sort of go for the 'we have a big fleet of spaceships but we're going to build one that's apable of going a bit farther out' premise of the regular Start Trek series (although some of the plotlines did contribute to a possible receding hairline and some grey hairs), but oh well, it kinda worked.
But anyone who has an inkling on what happens if the military take over a former enemy base couldn't buy this one.
There would've envoys, negotiators, a general officer trying to placate the civilians, a couple of hard-ass colonels, at least one company of nail-hard ODST's or Rangers (or SAS), a couple of companies of something like marines, battle hardened non-coms and a steady trickle of new recruites.
There would've been the ripping out of anything that smelt remotely like enemy hardware, the reinforcement of perimeters, patrols, heavy hardware coming in, and so on.
It was all just a bit softly softly for me. After a few seasons of enemy incursions they got 1 (ONE!) battle capable vessel.
Nope, I just never bought into this one.
I think you're approaching things from the wrong angle here, Starfleet isn't meant to be comparable to a modern military/navy, it's more of an exploration/diplomatic service with ships capable of defending themselves - this is also why the Defiant stands out, it was purely meant for military use (against the Borg), so no space/power wastage on room for scientists/civillian support/etc.
I agree with you
Especially on the suspension of disbelief thing...
In the pilot, ds9 is a backwater posting for a burt out captain. It was a way of avoiding the embarrassment of firing him. It's overseeing the recovery of a relatively primitive ( I can't recall it ever being made clear if Bajor was actually warp capable on their own) civilisation after a brutal occupation. It wasn't exactly a military outpost to start with, it was essentially a refinery... The station was a wreck and had relatively little value, but it doesn't seem to improve very quickly once it's moved to the wormhole.
Finding the wormhole turned it into a pivotal strategic military and political asset, but it was never treated as such, it was left with the burnout captain (he gets better) and supplied very little aid and support. It should definitely have had some better defences right off the bat, at least with a couple of real starships permanently stationed there, although it did finally get properly upgraded when the dominion became a threat, able to defend itself against an entire fleet.
Re: Especially on the suspension of disbelief thing...
Even in original Trek, you had to have not a suspension of disbelief but an eager suppression of it.
- Would no scientists ever return to portal through time that would show you the history of the Universe?
- Would anyone not copy the archives from "The World is Hollow and I have Touched the Sky"? Or the planet for the acknowledged schlock episode "Spock's Brain"
Granted Next Gen was even worse, but original Trek was bad enough on that front to begin with.
And yet I love the show.
Far Beyond The Stars
"Far Beyond The Stars" was my favourite episode. Instead of getting the characters to be someone else in the holodeck which is the usual ruse, they had them as 1950's Science Fiction writers, and a great plot line of Benny Russel (aka Sisko) creating the idea of DS9.
Too much woo-woo
I really thought all that pseudo-religious crap about the guardians and the destiny of Sisko was uneccessary.
ST was supposed to be Science Fiction, not magic.
Terry Farrell - Dutch?
...like James T Kirk, she's from Iowa...
Re: Terry Farrell - Dutch?
I think they confused her with Nicole de Boer, the 2nd Trill
Re: Terry Farrell - Dutch?
Ah, the Canadian non-Dutch one... *cough*
Wot no Ron Moore?
How could you write a DS9 retrospective without a mention of Ron Moore?
DS9's first and second seasons were pretty dull and often by-the-numbers TNG-era Trek under Bermann, but when Ron Moore took over as showrunner on season three it transformed into something dark and exciting, but often fun, and so inventive. The characters became three-dimensional people you could care about, he took Worf to a new level, and the final season space battles were stunningly choreographed.
Moore went on to create possibly the best TV sci-fi ever with the BSG reboot, and if you look back at DS9 it's like a trial run for some of the themes he explored so well in BSG.
B5 had great spaceship designs, some promising themes and great characters like Londo and G-kar, but it was often pompous, JMS couldn't write dialogue for love nor money ("Get the hell out of my galaxy" has to be one of the worst lines ever televised), and it never delivered on the promise of the first two seasons. He might blame Paramount for nicking the premise, but DS9 delivered the goods under Moore's leadership.
Re: Wot no Ron Moore?
BSG was crap, more like "Eastenders in space". Even the Muppets did that one better.
Re: Wot no Ron Moore?
Star Wreck: In the Pirkinning is a pretty good parody of the B5 and Star Trek universes. They do mercilessly take the mickey out of Sheridan's overly pompous speeches, plus several other piss-takes.. for example, the simply stupid design of the Excalibur (from Crusade and Babylon 5: A Call to Arms) and it attempts to answer the crucial question of who's ships would win in a firefight..
Loved DS9, its actually the only StarTrek TV series I can still watch without cringing constantly at how perfect the Federation are. I loved the other Treks too back in the day (except the Original *cue scathing attacks*) . Also much enjoyed B5, never really thought of them as that similar. Thought DS9 got better with age where B5 for me peaked and then was on life support for the last couple of series. Also love Blakes 7, the original Dr Whos, FireFly and more recently Battlestar and A Town called Eureka
Basically - Up the SciFi!!!
We need more of it.
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