back to article Bringing Iron Man to life: Exoskeletons, armour and jet packs

Radiation that gives you super-strength instead of disfiguring or killing you, spider bites that empower you to fight crime instead of threatening your life with a potentially fatal allergic reaction: when it comes to superheroes we need to suspend a decent amount of disbelief. But what about Marvel's The Avengers, the United …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.

Page:

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      " a self contained generator shouldn't add that much weight"

      A low powered generator might not, but then wouldn't deliver much benefit. For cargo loaders that might not matter - a walking forklift if you like, but (sadly) the idea of bouncing around the jungle at speed in a performance exoskeleton with some endurance seems a pipe dream using any currently feasible power source.

      Think of the performance you get out of a forklift - that's not exactly heart stopping, using engines in the range 30-150 hp. Now think of the size and weight of a small car engine (similar size and wieght to a forklift), add in the fuel tank and transmission (genny and motors). Not looking good for Colonel Quaritch in my view.

      1. fridaynightsmoke
        Boffin

        Forklift performance

        The poor acceleration of forklifts is due mainly to their enourmous weight- a '2.5t' forklift will weigh approximately 4 tonnes unladen. They do usually use small car engines, tuned for increased torque at low revs.

        The slow acceleration is also largely by design; you don't want >4 tonnes of iron with forks sticking out of the front doing any appreciable speed in your average warehouse, surrounded by meatbags and goods of varying fragility and monetary value. On the open road the rear-wheel steering also makes forklifts very unstable at speed (well, >10mph).

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Not really true. A forklift truck requires a heck of a lot of weight to act as counter to balance the load that would otherwise be way past its centre of balance, and the engine/transmission quite happily performs that function.

        Keeping the load max low and in towards the centre of balance (such as an unpowered human would) reduces the overall weight requirement down. Additionally, there are many high performance power to weight ratio generators available that wouldn't be cost effective in a commercial forklift. Gas turbine generators are small and pack a punch and would likely work well in such a device. There will be other design constraints a commercial forklift will have to adhere to which a Mil-Spec loader/ex-skeleton wouldn't have to worry too much about.

        1. Dave 126 Silver badge

          If the object is to allow a soldier to cover large distances quickly, then those designs that take their inspiration from kangaroos is the way to go, much like the 'Blade-runner' amputee athletes. The kinetic energy is stored in the spring (as it is in the tendons of kangaroos), and released again, so is a very energy efficient way of travelling, though not suitable for all terrains and hardly stealthy.

          I believe the Soviets experimented with a power-assisted version (with combustion-powered cylinders) that allowed soldiers to take strides ten yards long.

          If you want to your soldier to carry heavy equipment/supplies into hostile territory, then why burden the soldier with it and a HULC system? It's better to have a robotic mule carry the gear independently. Or, as was done in Burma in WW2, a real mule can be parachuted in.

          (A local farmer did this, and the next day Japan surrendered... nothing to do with an A-bomb at all, just the threat of Jasper on a donkey. Later on, when posted as a guard in the gardens of the Imperial Palace, the Emperor, under house arrest, politely approached him for a light... "You can fuck off" he responded)

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Whilst accepting that (and previous AC's) point, if you've got a loader then you'd need some counterbalancing for loads, so the performance point stands, and even if you overcome that and don't need the counterweight, the performance of a small family saloon weighing a tonne is nothing to get Quaritch into a sweat is it?

          "Gas turbine generators are small and pack a punch and would likely work well in such a device. "

          Not very fuel efficient, on varying loads though, which is why they've never had much use in ground transport. For the hypothesised exoskeleton from Avatar we'd be talking about something of the order of two to four tonnes weight to start with, and that implies (for a bit of spring in its step) around 800kW. A turbine gen set of that scale weights in at around six or seven tonnes, although you could reduce that if there's no silencing, enclosure, sled, and perhaps use a smaller set and run it more agressively (offsetting the life and service implications). And it'd use around a quarter of a tonne of fuel per hour, so for three hours endurance you'd have 0.75 tonnes of fuel. Say you over-rate a smaller turbine, and optimistically get a 6-700kW generating set at four tonnes, 0.75 tonnes of fuel, and the exo skeleton itself at three tonnes, throw in some weapons or load, and we're talking about a ten tonne vehicle with a p/w ratio of around 50hp/tonne.

          I do want one, I just can't see it happening anytime soon.

          1. Ignazio
            Pint

            Of course

            Now put this ten ton thingy on two feet and have it walk offroad. I'll be there with a chair and popcorn to watch it make its own version of quicksand...

            I'd say there is a name for a similar vehicle, however: they're slightly bigger and called tanks. What they share is the lack of subtlety, and lacking stealth if you are smaller than a tank and the enemy has any kind of artillery - does not sound like a great tactical advantage.

            1. Suricou Raven

              Re: Of course

              Avatar is a poor point to consider, as those suits weren't made for combat. The 'marines' weren't government, they were a private security force, equipped to fight off the very hostile animal life rather than wage war. Their suits were industrial in purpose, for servicing and loading mineing equipment. Their 'bomber' was an orbital transport shuttle with a couple of bundles of mineing explosive rigged to drop out the loading bay.

          2. annodomini2
            Boffin

            @AC 16:05

            You wouldn't need anything like that kind of power. 150-200KW would be more than adequate.

            Gas turbine is probably overkill and not the most practical solution, as has been stated for various reasons. Rotary engine may be more practical.

            The other benefit being a legged lifting device is that it can be lighter as the COG can be shifted as it's moving, compensating for the load. The lifting capacity would be limited by this capability.

            It would take more energy to walk rather than roll.

            You can implement regeneration with Hydraulics (most plausible actuation mechanism), reducing energy requirements.

            I think you'd be looking at 2-3 tonnes, but the range and longevity of operation would probably be reduced over a conventional forklift. As a result you'd have greatly increased fuel consumption.

          3. Psyx
            Pint

            "Not very fuel efficient"

            The military don't really give a crap, given that the Abrams uses 10 gallons of fuel just to start!

            Plus, Gas turbines can run on anything and are reliable.

  1. SirDigalot

    As much as I like our superheros

    I would love to be like stark or brucey (either of them to be honest) I think the future of warfare is more big honking robots, just because they are big and roboty and kick arse.

    Although I have the suspicion future superheroes are going to be more geeky and nerdy, we seem to be getting away from the "I have big rippling muscles" to I am an super genius with personality issues, and not allowed near razorblades or alcohol.

    Oh and apparently they are all socially inept too, I think watchmen is actually closer to reality...

    though I still want javis, that would be cool.

    1. Thorne

      Re: As much as I like our superheros

      The future of warfare isn't big honking robots. It's small cheap disposable robots.

      You have a mech warrior sized robot verses a swarm of cat sized robots. The small robots hide / bury themselves. When the big robot comes alone they attack and climb it. Get to a knee / hip joint and detonate. Crawl to weapon ports and blow them too.

      A squad of human soldiers come into their area and they hunt them like velociraptors on crack. Gut them and vanish again.

      Take the robots to the Nth degree and you have the nano swarm that eats the big robot and builds a second swarm out of it's corpse.

  2. dotdavid
    Thumb Up

    I think even exoskeletons that you needed to frequently recharge would still be useful. Thinking of elderly relatives that have trouble getting around, for example. Inductive charging while in bed or in a chair and it would be pretty lifechanging I think.

    1. SirDigalot

      I can see the law suits/reg headlines now

      Granny Cooked In Hot Bed shocker!

      Rise of the machines - again!

      I think there would be more lawsuits about cancer and stuff even though they have one foot in the grave and the other on a bar of soap...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Seem to recall the Japanese have some sort of powered "granny" lifter.

  3. P_0

    I am beginning to feel like exoskeletons will be redundent before they are available. Be it the Iron man suit, or the lifting exoskeletons from Aliens, or the ridiculous battle exoskeletons from Avatar, I don't see the point of putting a human inside them at all. (I'm not criticizing the films for what they are - enjoyable, just extrapolating them into the real world).

    For example, in Aliens they used exoskeletons for moving heavy loads around the cargo bay. Since they already have well-functioning AI (Aliens not Alien), why didn't they have a strong robot to do the lifting? Maybe costs? Maybe humans just want to do some hard work and don't want to rely too much on AI.

    Anyway, the bigger problem as I see it, is Iron Man. AFAIC he doesn't need to be inside the suit at all. Why not sit in a room with a good wireless connection to an empty suit (or just a robot) and control it from the safety of the room? Bringing this line of thinking into the real word, why put people inside super-strong suits for either combat or heavy-lifting, when we are approaching the technology to do both with robots? If you can make a suit carrying a gun that can be controlled by a man-inside's "brain waves", then why not take the man out of the suit in the first place, and remote control it with the same brain waves?

    1. Lee Colclough

      He does...

      ... In the book The Armor[sic] Trap, a remote controlled suit is tested and used in the opening chapter.

      So there!

    2. Roby

      I totally agree. Wars of the future will be fought by drones, either with their own AI or controlled remotely. There's no point in putting a human life in danger when a skilled operator can be safely in a bunker or nearby hidden armoured vehicle.

      1. Psyx
        Stop

        "There's no point in putting a human life in danger when a skilled operator can be safely in a bunker or nearby hidden armoured vehicle."

        One could argue that the point of putting a human life in danger is the prevention of trivialisation of warfare.

        When one side has literally nothing to lose, it has no reason not to wage warfare.

        1. P_0

          One could argue that the point of putting a human life in danger is the prevention of trivialisation of warfare.

          When one side has literally nothing to lose, it has no reason not to wage warfare.

          True. But it's already happening anyway. That's why militaries all over the world are spending billions on UAV/UCAVs. You could say that is trivializing war. Then again, a pilot flying thousands of feet above his target, with little chance of being shot down, while he drops bombs, could also be trivializing war. Or a medieval knight in inpenetrable armour riding around a battlefield stabbing poorly armed, untrained peasants willy-nilly is kind of trivializing war. I guess where I am going is the comical/tragic future of war could be humans sitting around in armchairs, letting drones and robots do the fighting for them. In which case, why have the war in meatspace at all? Put it in cyberspace, if that is possible. Of course one side would blame all their defeats on lag.

          I've often thought it would be ironic if, in the future when our troops are running around in mech suits, the enemy launched a surprise attack on the mech suit factory, causing the troops to have to fight to defend the factory without wearing their protective mech suits. Surely one of the soldiers would see the futile irony of being slaughtered to defend the factory that makes the suits to prevent them from being slaughtered.

          Or it could be that one mech suit is valued at much more than one human life, in which case giving one to a soldier would be pointless, or at least he should be the one to guard the suit. Anyway, just random thoughts.

          1. Psyx

            "True. But it's already happening anyway. That's why militaries all over the world are spending billions on UAV/UCAVs. You could say that is trivializing war."

            And that's partly why they are doing it. But not every military is going down that path: Only the 'civilised' ones who worry about a free press reporting bodycounts and want to operate without public backlash. It's not a positive trend. If every drone strike directly resulted in a dead US soldier, they wouldn't be happening.

            "Or a medieval knight in inpenetrable armour riding around a battlefield stabbing poorly armed, untrained peasants willy-nilly is kind of trivializing war."

            Not really, because someone still has to go and formally murder someone in person. There are still 'friendly' casualties (physical and psychological) and people still come back and say "Y'know what: That was fecking horrible, and we shouldn't do it."

            "I guess where I am going is the comical/tragic future of war could be humans sitting around in armchairs, letting drones and robots do the fighting for them."

            It won't. They will never fully supplant infantry. For two reasons. Firstly that any army entirely dependant on an electromagnetic link is going to find that Achilles heel exploited and the transmissions jammed at some point.

            The second is that only infantry can take and hold ground. End of story, really. Nothing else can fill that niche.

            " In which case, why have the war in meatspace at all?"

            Because that's where the prizes are. Warfare is fought for very physical reasons. It all comes down to patches of dirt.

        2. Ignazio
          Devil

          Will someone...

          ... think of the bills?

    3. Dave 126 Silver badge

      > why didn't they have a strong robot to do the lifting?

      "Humans are cheaper" is a possible answer in sympathy with the distopian tone of the film. Aliens might have a few plot holes (Why does Burke want Ripley to come along, when she is opposed to his aim of bringing back 'samples'?) but they are very easy to over look compared to those in Prometheus (that movie is little BUT plot holes. A shame, because the bits with David studying Peter O'Toole's Lawrence of Arabia ("a man serving two masters") are superb... the DVD release needs an 'anti-directors cut')

      Guilty pleasure: Starship Troopers 3, with battle-suits. It revives the tongue-in-cheek attitude of the first film, and the ropey special effects are a hoot. Exploding heads, nudity, far-right Christianity replacing fascism... a kiss set against the backdrop of a planet exploding... what's not to like?!

    4. Matt Bryant Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: P_0

      "..... with a good wireless connection...." And there's why - just imagine the problems of trying to fight a fast moving combat in Afghanistan, as Iron Man does in the first movie, with the lag of a link back to the States. Shooting slow moving cars with seeking missiles from a drone is one thing, having to respond quickly to new threats is quite different. That's even if you have a satellite in position you can use to get line of sight, otherwise your suit speeds off too far and you will lose control of it. And what if the enemy jams your link?

      1. P_0

        Re: P_0

        "..... with a good wireless connection...." And there's why - just imagine the problems of trying to fight a fast moving combat in Afghanistan, as Iron Man does in the first movie, with the lag of a link back to the States. Shooting slow moving cars with seeking missiles from a drone is one thing, having to respond quickly to new threats is quite different. That's even if you have a satellite in position you can use to get line of sight, otherwise your suit speeds off too far and you will lose control of it. And what if the enemy jams your link?

        It's a fair point, but if we are in the movie, where Stark pretty much bends the laws of physics anyway, a stable, fast, secure connection is believable. Or as believable as everything else.

        In reality, yeah a fast, stable, secure connection is much more difficult to make. I would say the drone would have to be given a certain amount of AI to avoid danger, repel attacks.

        Oh, and if the enemy jams your link, you lose a suit, not a life.

        1. Matt Bryant Silver badge
          Happy

          Re: Re: P_0

          "......Oh, and if the enemy jams your link, you lose a suit, not a life." Yes, but if the suit/drone/fighter-jet has a human pilot then neither the suit or pilot are lost, the pilot simply completes the mission and flies the craft home.

  4. Tomislav

    Sending e-mails?

    "Perhaps one day we’ll all be thinking emails directly to one another - hopefully with hilarious results."

    Lets just hope the autocorrect technology keeps up with this one. :D

    1. Johan Bastiaansen
      Angel

      Re: Sending e-mails?

      Autocorrection can bite you in the arse. Don't get me started.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    batteries won't be an issue

    I belive a Garfield solution to how to operate a full-size food-stuffed fridge when on the outing with Jon was simple - take the cord, 300 miles of.

    1. Dave 126 Silver badge

      Re: batteries won't be an issue

      >I belive a Garfield solution to how to operate a full-size food-stuffed fridge when on the outing with Jon was simple - take the cord, 300 miles of.

      Added advantage: enemies need physical access to the cable if they want to jam/overide communications with the device.

    2. Psyx
      Thumb Up

      Re: batteries won't be an issue

      I thought it was a Microwave?

      Garfield Goes Camping or similar, right?

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    interesting

    Would have liked to have seen an update on deep sea suits.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Olaf Zipser

    Is building a suit or capsule or something with which he hopes to emulate Felix Baumgartner. It will use rockets to boost him up into space whereupon he will then return in his suit that will have built in heat shielding. His proposals can be listened to here, provide you can pickup on podcasts.

    http://llnw.libsyn.com/p/7/c/6/7c6fea0583b10a49/sr174_06_27_12.mp3?s=1357587320&e=1357596063&c_id=4655567&h=e8dca8aa394bb1699e91d90bc0456f36

  8. rav

    Captain America is a juicer...

    Captain America didn't go to the gym. He just got shot up with more steriods than Lance Armstrong.

Page:

This topic is closed for new posts.