The LINUX TABLET IS THE FUTURE - and it always will be
The year of the Linux tablet is, like the year of the Linux desktop, destined never to arrive. That doesn't mean we won't see Linux on a tablet, but you'll see Linux on a tablet the way you see it on the desktop - clinging to a tiny percentage of the market. There is of course Android, which does use a Linux kernel somewhere …
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"The writer seems to have an odd view of linux as basically just Gnome + Unity."
Graham, the author does not have a fucking clue about anything Linux, much as he keeps insisting. I wonder how come his articles are even accepted by the Reg in the first place. Just have a look at the other stuff he wrote. It's just embarrassing.
> Asus Transformer?
Marvellous machine. Mine is still going strong after nearly two years. I think. I've written an entire novel on it. I'm considering replacing it with a padphone or one of those fancy slender models Asus do, at which point I'll likely start experimenting with some version of Linux + KDE just to see how well it works.
Asus Transformer
I've got an Asus Transformer and it's an absolutely stunning machine. Android runs wonderfully on this form factor. I've completely replaced my laptop with this device. And in those rare instances when I need "a desktop" -- I simply use the Jump Desktop client to remote-control the desktop on my DESK.
And yes, the Android stack has a Linux kernel in it. Linux is alive, well, and WINNING.
Re: Same userspace?
Does Linux sound like userspace to you? Does the word Linux sound kind of similar to GNU? It's a very interesting language you speak if it does, which is not what the rest of us are speaking. Linux is a kernel. So to say Android is not Linux is correct. It is incorrect, however, to say that there are no tablets running Linux. In fact, according to what I read in this article, it seems like the majority of tablets run Linux.
It's a wonder to me how it possible to twist everything and double speak till the exact opposite expression is made from "facts". Oh well, I suppose I should follow politics more and then I'd understand this blabber.
Re: Same userspace?
No, to me GNU sounds like stinking pile of hippy garbage...
Long live the BSDs!
CentOS - Re: re "I don't want a gnome tablet"
"At work I'm now on Ubuntu 12.04 but with XFCE , which is okay , but in my opinion not as nice as Ubuntu 10.04 and gnome. At home I've left Ubuntu 10.04 with gnome on my desktop."
CentOS 6 / Scientific Linux 6 / Springdale Linux 6 (formerly PUIAS Linux) are RHEL clones with updates until well after I retire. Rougly similar kernel and applications to Ubuntu 10.04 with incremental updates. Grab a live CD and try it on your hardware. I'm leaving CentOS 6.3 on my recycled thinkpad until it dies, while I continue to ride the Ubuntu rollercoaster on my home desktop (well, it keeps me alert, dodging the low branches).
Back on the nut roast bagels...
To the World
Windows is the ability to run Windows applications, and Linux is the ability to run Linux applications.
I realize Android devices typically run on ARM hardware, not x86, but I can't see a way on my Android tablet to build, say, FontForge from source. In fact, I can't find GCC on it anywhere.
The OS = the platform, not so much the UI. The applications it lets you run. What bits of code it uses matters not, except to tech aficionados. Android may be a moral victory for Linux, but it's not a market share victory that encourages people to develop for Linux.
Re: re "I don't want a gnome tablet"
@Karl H
I gave up with Ubuntu at 11.04, switched to Mint which is how a lean modern Debian based Linux distro should be put together!
Re: re "I don't want a gnome tablet"
I've been for Gnome all the way....until now. I've surprised myself by how upset I am over Gnome 3 - as @Karl H says "Oh why did they break it so badly ?"
Looks like as toss-up between an XFCE or similar or KDE...... Still sticking with the mighty Debian Testing though :-)).
PS Re:Userspace tools - Even if the C lib & shell is different, its probably got the same tools though, or they can be built....
Funny to read the Windows users "expert opinions" on Linux
KDE/Plasma is a much better contender
Really, if your idea of Linux as a touch OS is a variant of Ubuntu or Red Hat using Gnome or Unity, then it's no wonder you'd think it's a hopeless quest. One of the things the KDE team did right a few years ago when transitioning to KDE4 was to rebuild from the ground up so that the environment could be easily redesigned to suit many and varied paradigms without needing further redesign of the underlying system. Plasma is a fantastic touch interface, more modern and arguably better than iOS, Android or Metro.
As usual with any attempt to get Linux into the mainstream, it's not the quality or usability which will be the problem but the inertia and vested interests of device manufacturers and consumers.
Re: KDE/Plasma is a much better contender
Couldn't agree more about KDE. Everyone moaned about the changes when KDE4 first came along but now you can see why those engineering decisions were made all that time ago. The challenge for the KDE team is to release a finished stable version of the touch interface without their usual monthly tinkering where features are pulled or added by complete surprise.
KDE is a great desktop interface, I'd love to see a good stable version on a tablet.
Re: KDE/Plasma is a much better contender
Likewise. I saw a demo of Plasma on the n900 some time back and it looked rather spiffy, albeit a little slow as it wasn't particularly optimised. It did all the necessaries though.
Given a little time it could easily contend with Android for the mobile space.
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It's the interface...
I see a lot of arguments over which OS is best, but they are almost all really about the GUI. Where does MS get dinged most when changing Windows versions? The GUI. What makes Linux tablets unlikely? The GUI. What makes Apple fanbois weak in the knees? No comment. Most folks don't care about what's under the hood (present company excluded), but they do care that they can get in a do what they want to do without having to fight with their systems or they have to re-learn how to open and close a document with every new version of their OS.
Re: It's the interface...
spot on the button. Linux is an operating system. X windows is the GI and the GUI is down to whatever bloated load of wombat turds you prefer.
There is no point in loading a mouse,keyboard, big screen GUI onto a fondleslab. Android IS the Linux GUI for fondleslabs. It seems, from a safe distance, to work.
End of matter.
Linux is already the choice for servers. Desktop users of the more trivial sort are abandoning desktop machines for their I-Bling anyway. So there is likley to be no mass market for machines with mice and keyboards.
Those will become professional; workstations. And when they do Apple and Microsoft will probably abandon them to LInux anyway.
Re: It's the interface...
Android is a bit more than just a GUI. It's a whole stack of software that basically uses Linux as a hypervisor to run each app in its own VM. Not quite the same as selecting "Android" from the drop-down list of KDE, Gnome, XFCE and whatever other X window managers you have installed.
Would be nice to see an official Dalvik for Linux though, made as easy as clicking an "androidclient" icon in the package manager, with Google apps support, and maybe with some kind of copy/paste and file support through to the host OS. Maybe have a go at showing Microsoft how you do "everything at once".
And this is the problem,
Tablet interfaces don't work on PCs, and PC interfaces don't work on tablets.
This is the fundemental problem with windows 8, it tries to have both and instead of being the best of both worlds it's ended up feeling second rate on both platforms.
Luckily this is so self evident that the current blip of the windows 8 interface won't last long, it will soon evolve into one interface to tablets and a second for PCs
Re: And this is the problem,
I don't know what version of windows 8 you tried but I find the metro interface great, an dthe desktop too, I have no problem using both and before you wet yourself with the deslusion that I don't use it for real work, I do.
Re: And this is the problem,
I agree eventually it will evolve and very possibly seperate thats what windows 8 is all about, major change to an aging system. The problem is the trolls and dinosaurs can't seem to deal with any kind of change so instead of embracing it they need to rant and rave about how its not this, it doesnt do that etc.
Windows 8 Pro is great, I use the apps in metro for my news consumption, game scores for sports etc etc and I work everything else that I do business and consumer use the same way I always have done with Win7 and earlier while getting more stability than I had in Win7/Vista/XP.
It's a win win people, if you don't want to give it a chance fine but don't knock it just because you think it sucks!!!
Re: And this is the problem,
Same here. I don't use the Metro side much, but it has novelty value.
However, the desktop still works just as fine for me as it did in 3.1/95/98SE/NT/2000/XP/Vista and 7.
I haven't had any issues at all. Neither has anyone else that I've rolled it out to.
Re: And this is the problem,
This is a very suspicious comment. Why would RISC OS be using anything other than RISC OS, hmmm?
I call shenanigans.
"Pair a Linux tablet with a hardware keyboard and mouse and you'd have a great little three-piece laptop replacement"
Or do the same with the Windows 8 one you've got (which would appear to be Microsoft's intention, certainly when the Pro ones arrive) and you'll have that too, surely?
Either you want a tablet or you want a laptop OR you want a SMALL laptop with consequences (the evolution of the netbook).
I would have a small laptop with consequences personally, but I'll wait for the Surface Pro. Although the Lenovo Yoga does look interesting.
Now, Santa, where's my folding screen?
Home use, bluetooth KB and mouse.
'Mobile' use, use as is.
But my problem with my tablet is that it can't stand up like a laptop. Trying to use it to talk to my mate on Skype yesterday - had to use a judicious arrangement of books to prop it at a decent angle, so video worked. (Could've held it, but I wanted a smoke, and drink my coffee.)
I think the neatest must be this laptop: Dell XPS 12 Convertible Touch Ultrabook, Windows 8, but it's freakingly expensive at $1,200, base price, $1,700!! Laptop and fondleslab, in one, tho'.
But, I'm convinced this is the evolution path. tHere's no doubt others out there I'm not aware of....
http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-12-l221x/pd
Re: Home use, bluetooth KB and mouse.
Or you could buy a microsoft surface with a built in kick stand :)
Skype might crash a few times or drain your battery too much but hey you would have not needed the books!!
Android
Am I the only one around who is actually happy with Android on tablets?
Re: Android
Apparently not - Android holds almost 50% of the tablet market and growing. As far as I can tell, Android is the best Linux UI for touch, just as bash is probably the best command line interface. The desktop is a tougher call - Ubuntu's Unity seems to have the biggest user base at 20 million machines (and I use it on a couple of my machines), but we have so many additional choices in KDE, Gnome, Cinnamon, Mate, and several others that I'm not sure you can claim a consensus "best" yet. Time will tell. Maybe.
Re: Android
My only two gripes about Android are the way it manages multitasking and the way Android-based systems are so locked down. I like to get a command-line interface to play with because I'm a tinkerer, but rooting and installing a terminal emulator gives me a lot of options in that regard. The multitasking issue is more fundamental. A few times, to begin with, I lost quite a lot of writing on my Asus transformer because I switched away from the app without saving and came back later to find it had been dumped from active memory and lost all my work.
Frustrating.
Other than the enforced "save all the time" regime, which is good practice anyway, I have almost no complaints. Now if only I could get jellybean on my phone...
Re: Android
"Am I the only one around who is actually happy with Android on tablets?" Nope, very happy with Android on a Nexus tablet. But also more than very happy with even old Windows Tablet Edition on my old hp TC1100, which can do more than any tablet. And for all the fanboys out there feeling smug, the author seems to have skipped over the fact that using an iPad has exactly the same frustrations as using a Win8 tablet. I'm typing this on an iPad and it is immensely frustrating compared to a Linux or Windows laptop or PC. Tablets are still great as consumption devices, crap for actual productive tasks.
Re: Android
If "Linux" using the term loosely here had less fragmentation maybe it could actually compete better in the desktop space with the likes of MSFT and Apple no? Just an observation.
Re: Android
Of course not.
Apple play games in this area, they cherrypick the £60 Supermarket tablets, the ones without Google Play store, and come with resistive touchscreens, and pretend this is the typical Android tablet experience.
The idiots that pay £400 upwards for their tablets are all to happy to believe this is the real story, when we all know it's not.
Even the most inbred Apple owners are usually impressed when I show them a jellybean powered Nexus7, and then I break the news that me and missus have 1 each, for the price they paid. They then go on to talk about having heard at a Apple conference that all Android apps are just "big smartphone apps", which again is utter bullshit and I show them the apps I use, and very few of them fit into that category. I then break the news to them that that too is a double edged sword, and they where they buy separate copies of their apps for iPhone and iPad, this is rarely the case on Android, where the single APK has both smartphone and tablet layouts included that share the same business logic. Infact Swiftkey is the only example that breaks that rule of thumb on Android.
Apple owners believe any old shit to make it seem like their overpriced tablet is worth it.
Re: Android
Linux is not "fragmented". It is adapted to multiple environments and capable of running the same tools and applications on the vast majority of them. Those environments where you can't run, say, Konqueror are probably not suited for desktop browsing in the first place.
To pick a random example, I could run abiword on my old n900, my desktop computer and, with a bit of tinkering, my router. Okay, a lot of tinkering, and it's probably not much fun running a word processor and all the other bits necessary to make that happen on a router, over a vnc session. It would be a dog.
But that's sort of the point. Linux doesn't fragment. You wouldn't want to have the exact same user experience across divergent devices. By the logic you're employing, Apple is fragmented because it has completely different user interfaces on iOS and OSX and can't run the same applications. It's a laughably stupid argument, yes? So why are you making the exact same laughably stupid argument about Linux?
Merry boxingmas.
Re: Android
> If "Linux" using the term loosely here had less fragmentation maybe it could actually compete better in the desktop space with the likes of MSFT and Apple no?
No.
Linux is a technology, not a product (I think you allude to that by your "loosely" comment). Technologies don't hold market share, products do. The ONLY for-profit corporation making a serious play for the desktop to my knowledge is Canonical, with about 20 million active installations of Ubuntu (based on unique IP accesses to their update servers) as of 2011, along with a range of related products such as the Ubuntu Software Center, UbuntuOne media store, cloud services, and enterprise offerings.
In contrast, Linux was FAR more "fragmented" in mobile a couple of years back, with Bada (a Samsung product), WebOS (championed by Palm and then HP), Maemo/Meego (Nokia's former future), and Android (an odd little OS from Google). Yet Android has quickly captured a majority of the mobile market, even without the ability to run Bada, WebOS or Meego apps (eek! fragmentation!!!).
Compare that to Steam, Firefox, LibreOffice, Chrome, Netflix - they all run on most Linux-based desktop products, though some are only "officially" supported on Ubuntu and only Ubuntu is seriously working commercial deals with vendors and developers as far as I can tell.
I have no idea whether Canonical will continue to gain desktop market share, but if they don't, clearly fragmentation won't be the cause.
Re: Android
But is "Linux" trying to compete? Which organization similar to Apple or Windows is pushing Linux? Maybe Canonical but I haven't seen the ads, shows, Balmer-style antics. .
I'd say most Linux users don't care if others use it or not. They choose a distro' then a version then a GUI then change the whole system to suit their particular needs. That's why individuals use Linux.
Re: Android
RESISTIVE touchscreens??? HUH??? I've just used one, a very big one in Oulu City (They've several of these black monoliths mainly for tourist and visitor use) and it was about as responsive as my missus on a Friday night!
Terrible. OK, it's -10C at the moment but they were just as bad in the summer at +20.
Herre's one, and it's a great idea seemingly thwarted by old tech.
http://www.ubioulu.fi/sites/default/files/images/tn_kesa_valve.jpg
Re: Android
Bash is buggy rubbish spread only because it was default on Lînux. Its Posix mode is not complete, its array implementation bizarre. Still, it's a very good stimulus to use Perl more, while using ksh/posix sh for things best done in shell (and awk for real work. :) )
Actually, most Linux rewrites of utilities are sad: they took the UNIX philosopy of doing one thing simply and well, binned it and added a thousand options with two or three forms per option, plus spurious colours, just to save the effort of using a pipe or filter. The result is that nobody knows all the options and all tend to type some magic spell of options that seem to work, regardless of the utility of the output.
Bah! Give me a real UNIX, system V or BSD, any day, written and reviewed by software engineers and not by home hackers and self-taught, would-be geniuses. If you had had to work with the software of some people, as I have, who claimed to have had their "fixes" for "bugs" in the filing system or some utility "accepted", you would run a thousand kilometres to avoid "Linux".
Re: Android
Happily still doing all I need to do on the move with my ASUS TF-101.
Just today I went looking for an app from a particular company website expecting to only find the Apple version, nope there they were both app-store versions of the app for Apple and Android. Things are simply getting better every day!
Re: Android
The best command line interface is tcsh not bash. Bash is better for scripting.
Re: Android
Should have bought an N900 or an N9 while you could. Developer mode user-accessible SWITCH that auto installs a terminal and SDK "remote debugging", and true multitasking were all your apps are working in the background. Battery life does not suffer unduly and it's a true Linux (Debian-based, smallbox shell, glibc).
The big problem...
The Unix philosophy is based on text. However text entry is hard on those devices.
However there is no equivalent of the Unix philosophy for touch/pen based interfaces. Therefore touch/pen based interfaces are usually severely limited and unsuitable for anything except for document viewing and perhaps a bit of painting.
What we need is someting like GRAIL which allows for complex input via pen interfaces. Back then you essentially drew a data flow path.
Re: The big problem...
Yeh maybe in 1975, but things have moved on since then.
Re: The big problem...
No, the unix philosophy is one program, one task. Text is the interface. You just made the same mistake as the author, confusing the GUI with the OS.
Re: The big problem...
That should be UI, not GUI... oh well. Silly fingers. :D
Re: The big problem...
Yeah you just keep believeing that crap FUD that Apple/MS marketing depts spew out and you'll miss out on the great things that the world of FOSS has to offer.
Ah well that's your loss!
Re: The big problem...
Well but the Unix philosophy also means that you enter your data and your programs the same way, as text. And that you can easily edit both.
The Unix philosophy also means that you separate the UI from the actual program, even to a point where many tools don't even have their own UI and leave that task to text editors.
What we do have in mobile devices is just a primitive mess. You cannot program them properly on the device itself. You need to load the software from "the side" just like on many pre-unix machines you couldn't load your software via the terminal.
There's a Chinese outfit called SmartQ that have been producing a linux tablet since around 2009:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SmartQ_5
...it wasn't especially practical; but that was at least as much down to the resistive screen. I still use mine to read books on.
Nokia Internet Tablets
Like many things at Nokia, painfully ahead of their time and killed just when the times had caught up to them.
Re: Nokia Internet Tablets
Just read there may be a new Nokia Tablet coming to CES2013
Re: Nokia Internet Tablets
Not sure if serious. The rumoured new Nokia Tablet runs WindowsRT, the N770 to N900 (and the N9) ran Debian with different UI toolkits (Hildon, GTK and Qt).
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