North Korea's satellite a dud, say US astroboffins
North Korea may have successfully launched a satellite into orbit, as reported last week, but it might as well have deployed a pile of scrap metal, US-based astroboffins say. "It's clear that the rocket part of this mission worked very well for the North Koreans," Harvard astronomer John McDowell told The New York Times. "They …
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Re: "is thought to house a camera"
Actually caught most in mid air as the canister parachuted down.
Re: the eighties called
Yes the eighties called, but they called collect from North Korea.
It's worth pointing out, we are talking about the giant black blob above South Korea on every satellite photo of the region. It's really quite amazing how underdeveloped it is, Pyongyang is one of the only blobs of light. Korea is also one of the few places where you can clearly see the border a political border on a satellite photo (the Korean Demilitarized Zone shows up as a line of light).
Still, I bet the night sky is beautiful there.
http://www.sciencephoto.com/media/108308/enlarge
Out of Control?
Following the satellite's orbit here:
http://www.n2yo.com/satellite/?s=39026
Can't see the wobble. More US propaganda?
Re: Out of Control?
You wouldn't see it wobble in a satellite track. If it's tumbling end over end it's not moving from side to side, is it?
Re: Out of Control?
I wouldn't have thought its course would deviate unless it was spraying something to give it thrust.
North Korea peeing in the orbital pool?
Take that, first world!! Our oscillating washing machine will clean the skies of your multi-billion dollar satellites!!
Re: North Korea peeing in the orbital pool?
Funny, but I thought someone would have gone with the 'Why hello Hans Blix... ' from the use of the puppet image used in Team America, World Police. (F - Yeah!).
They could have made a joke that its really a coffin for Matt Daemon or Alex Baldwin... Or something along those lines...
"Some experts believe that by launching a rocket now, North Korea's young new leader and sexiest man alive, Kim Jong-Un, hopes to gain a new bargaining chip for future negotiations."
Leave them alone. No more aid, no more nothing. Anything you give them they use to get the next handout. Let them starve, when the people get hungry enough, maybe THEY will do something about THEIR government. The fact is, we give them food and NK sells it for money. The people never see the food anyway. Cutting of all aid will mean the upper class might feel the squeeze.
"Let them starve...,
"Let them starve..., when the people get hungry enough, maybe THEY will do something about THEIR government."
They didn't. Vast numbers of them starved in the nineties and there was no revolution. It is an enduring myth that a starving population will revolt.
"Let them starve..."
I love tough-guy comments by swinging Anonymous dicks advocating the deaths of millions of people by slow starvation with a thoughtless throw-away comment before stuffing their face with industrialised carbs and sugars they had no part in producing. Food is easy if you don't have to actually grow it - and it is nothing until it is taken away.
What a superstar!
Has the failure of all previous economic sanctions efforts from u-boat blockades to Food-for-Oil programs not educated you that they will never result in "regime change"? They are a collective punishment that actually forces a society to be MORE reliant on a central authority.
And you are seriously advocating the deaths of millions of North Korean citizens in order to, some how in some way, set those same citizens FREE? Well, the ones who didn't starve to death first under your little final solution.
I don't know whether you are the re-incarnation of Air Marshal Arthur Harris or General Curtis LeMay, but you seem to have the same lets-bomb-them-into-submission mindset.
Re: "Let them starve...,
And that is something that the North Korean people will need to deal with; not a hard concept to grasp. If they want to do nothing, that is THEIR choice. The rest of the world should do the same. When the people show they are willing to oppose their governemnt, we should do the same. You can't help those that won't help themselves first.
Re: "Let them starve..."
What a tool you are superstar.
"I don't know whether you are the re-incarnation of Air Marshal Arthur Harris or General Curtis LeMay, but you seem to have the same lets-bomb-them-into-submission mindset."
Who said anything about bombing, I simply said leave them alone and do nothing for them. Either the North Korean people want a change or they do not. By them not doing anything, the obviously do not want a change. So by doing nothing, you are doing exactly what they want, nothing. Is that concept that hard to grasp? Also by doing nothing, the upper class also no longer gets a free ride on the backs of all the aid that is given to them. By North Korea getting nothing at all and all the sanctions still in place, where exactly will they be finding the funds to live large? North Korea is allies with China, let China foot the bill. If the Chinese do nothing for them, that tells you something right there. By giving no aid, North Korea will either sink or swim; it is time to find out. The current method doesn't work at all and actually only benefits the upper class anyway. So by giving aid to, what is really being accomplished?
Re: "Let them starve...,
Hey coward, simple reading comprehension will inform you that I said you had the whole bomb-them-into-submission mindset to a tee. If you knew who Harris and LeMay were, you would have understood why I compared you to them. I won't make that mistake again.
Collective punishment, whether by strategic bombing campaigns, economic sanctions or blockades, or simply shoving the helpless up against a wall and putting a bullet in their heads, ALWAYS FAIL. A keen observer of history and diplomatic niceties like you would know this, surely?
Why? Because you are initiating a hostile action against a population. That just brings a society closer together. We are social animals, and when threatened we naturally band together to deal with danger. History has shown that it may be logical not to, but social dynamics over-rides such logic and means that we do. That is why collective punishments fail.
In case I haven't been explicit in why I refer to this, YOU have been advocating a collective punishment (starvation) as a means to coerce regime change in NK. It is both ignorant of why it will fail in general, and why it will fail in NK in particular.
It may be that not providing NK with food is a passive action, but do you think the NK elite will help you getting the distinction to the average Comrade Kim?
No, the starving millions will be told that they are dying because America wants them dead. And how will they know America doesn't? Seeing as the elite controls all media, and all public discourse, and 60 years of indoctrination means that they also control PRIVATE THOUGHTS to an unparalleled degree.
NK is one giant cult compound, and when threatened with outside intervention (even when it is supposed to be to their benefit), cults tend to explode with suicidal violence.
You have made the mistake (because your argument is incredibly shallow and ill-conceived) of thinking that NK is a rational society of normal people living normal lives. NK is an incredibly irrational society of indoctrinated people behaving abnormally. For 60 years an entire population has lived with NO CHOICE but obedience to a cult figure. They probably no longer even know there is a choice. Choices are easy when you make them every day, but what if you have spent your entire life without the ability to make important life choices? How easy is it then?
You are right, they will have a choice. They will choose death. When confronted with a threat from the outside, and with all discourse controlled by the ruling elite, North Koreans will choose to slowly die by the millions. Many estimates say they have already starved to death by the millions, and the stories from NK defectors of families dying are truly horrific. But don't worry, all this suffering will be hidden away from your view. You will never have to watch the results of such a policy.
As you are a coward, I don't know what country you live in, but I'm going to assume that just like mine it doesn't let the mentally ill commit suicide without attempting to help them. We don't just keep walking when they CHOOSE to stand on the train tracks.
NK has a population of about 25m. You seem to be OK with potentially tens of millions of mentally ill people committing suicide. I'm glad that most people are not.
If my reply seems a bit heated and my attitude to you rude and snotty, it is because I find your callous disregard for suffering humans abhorrent.
Re: "Let them starve...,
The snag is that providing aid (and specifically, providing more aid when NK threaten those around them) is accepting the demands of a protection racket that keeps the regime in power. As NK stipulate what aid they will accept and distribute it themselves, they are free to starve their people as much as they like and tell them that whatever they have comes from their leader and the rest of the world is responsible for all their woes.
Here's an idea...
what if it's a chimera- designed to take other satellites out. Then North Korea can just say 'whoops- sorry, the satellite entered an unstable orbit and accidentally took out a spook spy cam'.
Re: Here's an idea...
You nasty, cynical suspicious person. I was thinking exactly the same thing.
Re: Here's an idea...
That *might* work once but if it is repeated then it would be an act of war. Future launches of North Korea would also be blown out of the sky before reaching space. "ooops, sorry, looks like we were test firing a rocket and your rocket came into its path."
This seems a bit mixed up...
... but that's OK. Various other media outlets got it wrong. The orbit is fine. In fact they pretty much nailed it if they are doing earth observation. That's pretty hard to do as things go and represents a fairly significant technical accomplishment. The satellite is tumbling. That may not mean the end of the mission. They might be using a stabilization technique that takes a long time. Such techniques have limits of course...
There is no real extra risk of collision. Many (most?) science satellites in low earth orbit have no method of propulsion and none would be expected for a first crack at a space vehicle. Low earth orbit is littered with junk. One more object will not change things at all. SOP is to track as many objects as possible and then move any valuable satellites out of the way if there is a conflict. There is nothing like air traffic control for low earth orbit.
Re: This seems a bit mixed up...
Had a look at the orbital parameters of the bird earlier. It's perigee (lowest point in it's orbit) is 505 km (about 300 miles). That means it has a fair orbital life before it will reenter the atmosphere, probably about 10 years give or take 2. As was mentioned, it'll be tracked and any conflicts will be handled by moving the affected satellite out of the way if possible. The biggest worry is that the Korean satellite will fall to pieces before it's orbit decays. Then it becomes a much more difficult object to predict as there could be debris that can't be tracked properly and as the pieces bump against each other here could be slight changes in orbits to account for, not much of a change but the error will build up over time. I think the biggest worry for me would be any propellant tanks rupturing, that could have the effect of shredding the satellite and we would be looking at a cloud of debris that would spread out further the longer it stays in orbit.
Hope this helps.
Not rad-hard perhaps?
I wonder if NK was not able to get rad-hard chips and tried to shield standard off the shelf ones. Building a rocket is a lot easier than building a chip fab, even one using 20 year old technology. Unless their sort-of friends in the form of China and Russia decided to give them rad hard chips, they might have had to find another solution via the black market.
Perhaps they thought they had acquired some on the black market, but the US secretly fed them ones that wouldn't survive in space after all, much like when they sabotaged the software the Soviets stole and used in that Siberian NG pipeline explosion during the Cold War 30 years ago. Given the NK don't have the resources to build/launch rockets very often, something like that sets them back another year or two as they have to figure out what went wrong and build another one.
Just a theory.
Re: Not rad-hard perhaps?
I saw a couple of rad-hardened Sandia Labs 808x clones on eBay a couple of months ago. Out of my price range unfortunately, as they went for a couple of hundred dollars each. NK should look at making an eBay account.
Also, rad-hardened Soviet 808x clones (unlicenced ones, this time) also pop up on eBay. Really, eBay is an cartoony super-villain's best friend.
Icon: Muahaha!
Can the 'mercans not just shoot it down with their fricken great laser thingy?
@Trever Marron
Unfortunately not, sharks cannot look up.
...Had the satellite been deployed successfully, however, any nighttime photos it took would have revealed what more advanced countries have long known: that North Korea remains a backward, poverty-stricken nation, where such basic technologies as electric lighting are reserved for an elite few...
Or, alternatively, that North Korea is a guiding beacon in the environmental community, and does not waste any energy or emit any light pollution...
Which is where we'll be in 20 years if the greens have their way...
Putting a satellite into a stable orbit is not "a pretty hard thing to do" if you have a working rocket. Putting it into the exact orbit you want is challenging.
They pretty much said "watch this" then "nailed it". ("We _meant_ for that to happen.")
I doubt that the satellite is slowly trying to stabilize itself. Satellites that are expected to have long operational lives have flywheels (momentum/reaction wheels) to conserve maneuvering fuel. They attempt to use coils working against the earth's (weak) magnetic field if the wheels build up too much speed, falling back to conventional attitude jets. But all of this is complicated and difficult to get working, so short-lived satellites use only attitude jets. Even the smallest jets should be able to stabilize the satellite in minutes.
Re: Working as intended?
In space, no-one can hear you tick.
Creepy.
Nice sssssatellite you've got there, would be a ssssssshame if anything happened to it.
Satellite is to search for friends
...as the chap who had the idea was quite ronery.
It is a technological triumph
even if we are being pursuaded to think that it is a joke. They have had to get many things right to put it up there; even if not everything appears to have worked properly.
Heaping derision is the way that our politicians try to keep us thinking negative thoughts about NK. It is all politics. I am not saying that NK is the best of nations or that it could find better ways of spending money; but the black & white view is simplistic.
But to say that the only purpose is to bomb the USA (so we should be afraid) while the USA has its own ICBMs is complete hypocrisy, such technology has multiple uses. In a similar way we are told that the only reason that Iran has a nuclear programme is to make bombs - ignoring other purposes.
Re: It is a technological triumph
All true - maybe they're not happy with DHL, and so they're leading the way in same-day courier services, and the ICBMs are simply a part of that.
Re: It is a technological triumph
It's only a 'triumph' if you excuse the idiocy that made NK a starving wasteland of misery rather than a successful prosperous nation.
It's a bit like if you nailed your hands together and then learned to play the trombone, and then wondered why we weren't all applauding you for your brilliance.
Re: It is a technological triumph
Prior art:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_mail
Re: It is a technological triumph
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RocketMail
Is the satellite simply saying:
"Hey, I am out that country, I do not have to listen to them any more. Hey, look what I can do! I can tumble! Doesn't seem to achieve much, but maybe I'll find out what it's for later"
If the US don't like it,
then why don't they do what they usually do the countries with dictatorships?
Send in the troupes to overthrow their government in the name of peace and democracy.
Oh right, they don't have any oil, that's why.....
Re: If the US don't like it,
>then why don't they do what they usually do the countries with dictatorships?
Fund their military to kill any commie guerillas who want their land back?
Sell them weapons to fight the aformentioned commies
Lend them "voting advisors" to kill any upitty nuns who complain
Arrange for them to ship their drugs into the USA without any police getting in the way and for the money to be delivered safely to Switzerland
Unfortunately NK's only mind-expanding export is kimchi - and even Hollywood starlets won't inhale that.
We may be at war with Oceana
...... But the chocolate ration is up
I'm not a fan of American foreign policy but North Korea really is a wacky place. I don't understand why we provide them with food aid, whilst they pursue ballistics and nuclear research. If we stopped providing aid and the country eventually fell apart is this scenario really scarier than the present regime? Surely China would step in anyway?
As far as Iran goes I entirely understand their perception that they need nuclear weapons, most of their borders are with countries either under direct occupation by the US, with a US presence or under the influence of the US. The US have also armed their mortal enemies in the region and Syria is no longer a powerful ally to them. However at least they can feed their own people and afford a space programme at the same time!
Running TRIAL version of WIN8
Oops ... we forgot to get that TRIAL version ACTIVATED ... crap ... now it won't talk back ...
Ah, I see
Instead of the drum revolving, the drum stays still and the whole machine revolves. You can only do this in space. Safely. The "payload" is 5 kgs of Kim Jong-Un's dirty socks, which should be fairly clean by now. If somebody remembered to put the powder in. It must be up to the spin cycle by now, so expect to see it increase the speed of the revolutions. This is what they meant by "People's Glorious Revolution". In Space no-one can hear you clean. Thanks God it's friday. It's only tuesday, Crap.
If Obama had not grounded the Shuttle...
... we could go and pick up North Korea's garbage. Bring it home for a laugh.
If for no other reason that would be useful to P.O. "the sexiest man alive."
Re: If Obama had not grounded the Shuttle...
Er - no, shuttles could not be launched into polar orbits like the one the Korean satellite is in.
BTW, the shuttle grounding started with GWB, Obamha just followed through with it.
In my head I'm hearing...
At last, after two thousand years of research, the illudium Q-36 explosive space modulator. At last...
Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!
Scoff all you want, even the US had trouble in the beginning
The West should never under estimate what is happening out in the Far East. Only 50 years ago, South Korea had no toilet paper and look where they are now.
North Korea has obviously got the rocket bit right, and the satellite is in orbit which is good enough to throw an atomic weapon at the USA.
Re: Scoff all you want, even the US had trouble in the beginning
Well the goddam' gooks should do what we had to.
Just go to Germany and pinch a few Nazi scientists
A dud? Perhaps not.
They've got us all looking up while they sneak ashore.
"All war is deception." Sun Tzu
Country that tumbles its satellites, have very fluffy future.
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