Forget fluorescents, plastic lighting strips coming out next year
The blinking, buzzing fluorescent lighting tubes that have blighted office buildings for over 70 years could be on their way out, now that US scientists think they've cracked a system to replace them with glowing plastic. "People often complain that fluorescent lights bother their eyes, and the hum from the fluorescent tubes …
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Fit for purpose?
"I reckon about 1 in 10 or so don't make it through the first couple of weeks"
Then you take them back to the shop and get a refund.
What's the problem? Don't have consumer protection legislation where you live?
They will run directly on AC - on a 50% duty cycle and with a 50/60hz flicker that will make you slowly insane. Rectifying and smoothing out the power is one of the complications in LED lighting.
I have to say I haven't been impressed with LED bulbs much. I love superbright LEDs for electronics projects, but I find the light engines in the bulb replacements just aren't bright enough, and the prices are kind of stupid for what you get. There's still work to do on them before they'll replace CF.
@Pet Peeve
They don't. LEDs need low voltage (about 3.5V for a single white LED) at a regulated current (300mA for a 1W LED). Just rectifying your AC mains with no additional electronics will require a voltage drop of mains-voltage*sqrt(2) (so 325V in Europe, 155V in the US) at whatever current the LED draws. This would require either a HEFTY resistor, OR a step-down converter, and those run at >100kHz, so that the coil or transformer they employ can be kept small.
Re: Fit for purpose?
@John Hughes
What's the problem? Like most people, I don't buy light bulbs one at a time as their predecessors fail: I buy a batch of them so I have a replacement ready when I need it. Call me feckless, but I put the spare bulbs in a cupboard and don't bother to cross-reference them with the proof of purchase, since it's usually a supermarket receipt with fifty other items on it. When a CFC fails early, I'm usually aware that it's only recently been installed, but I lack the documentation, and, to be honest, the time and motivation, to return it to the shop.
I did once try invoking the manufacturer's guarantee printed on the box. Unsurprisingly, the process was so complicated and tedious that I gave up.
Re: Fit for purpose?
Osram insists they have "no questions asked return/replace" policy on CFL type. At least at this area of world.
@ Kubla Cant
If you can't be bothered then you really ask for everything you get. How tricky is it to keep a receipt? Also you're not doing yourself any favours buying armfuls at the supermarket. Boxes of bulbs are doubtless treated as gently as boxes of beans. The supermarket has no interest in the quality of the bulbs because it will happily refund/exchange almost anything and return it to the supplier. They must love people like you! Keep up the moaning, they would say.
Always nice to see an oscilloscope
It must be *real* science if there is a scope with a couple of traces in shot.
Re: Always nice to see an oscilloscope
No, for real science, it has to be Lissajous figures. Also, the guys have turned the scope towards the camera. Real engineers wouldn't do that - fail on 2 counts!
Re: Plastic lighting strips
Light emitting plastic paint, almost read that way and got excited.
Why one data point is not evidence.
While recycling them could be an issue the design should last much longer than conventional lighting systems. The team says one of their units has been in operation for over a decade with no sign of dying as yet.
http://www.centennialbulb.org/
Re: Why one data point is not evidence.
Heard of that bulb. The reason it lasts so long is that it was designed for a much higher voltage. It's actually UNDERburning, so it's probably only barely wearing out. 130V incandescents (a fad trend before CFLs won center stage) had a similar idea, and while I got a few of them on the cheap, I don't think they lasted as long as they advertised. Still, they did last somewhat longer.
Re: Why one data point is not evidence.
"The team says one of their units has been in operation for over a decade with no sign of dying as yet."
I'd like that statement qualified. How long does it stay on in a given day? If that strip had been operating CONTINUOUSLY, always on, for a decade, THEN I'll be impressed.
Re: Why one data point is not evidence.
Actually, I'd be more impressed if they were switching it on and off frequently - it would demonstrate that the thermal stresses and electrical surges involved were having little or no effect.
Re: Why one data point is not evidence.
"Actually, I'd be more impressed if they were switching it on and off frequently - it would demonstrate that the thermal stresses and electrical surges involved were having little or no effect."
Good point. The other issue is at that lamps are switched on at random phase in the mains cycle and cold incandescents have have a start resistance 1/10 to 1/12 that of their on resistance (Allegro microsystems data sheet). IE inrush current 10x to 12x normal at full potential difference across the terminals.
I've long suspected that bulb mfg took advantage of this fact to ensure their life tests showed bulbs could last their 1000s of hours while ensuring an acceptable (to them) number of failures to keep the cash coming in.
Re: Why one data point is not evidence.
Neither is the so-called "Centennial Light". One can achieve a similar effect with any contemporary incandescent light by running it at a small fraction of its rated voltage so that the filament barely glows.
Re: Why one data point is not evidence.
Neither is the so-called "Centennial Light".
Yes.
That.
Was.
My.
Point.
More "efficient" but...
How long will they last and at what cost?
Another truism is that while incandescent lights are not that efficient in the production of light, they have a side effect of this "inefficiency", that they DO produce heat. While some installations of lights do not need the heat, there are instances where is is necessary. One town in the northern climes here in the USA decided to replace its stoplights with "efficient" led versions. Then came winter and the blowing snow clogged up the shadow tubes used to make the lights more visible to the motorists. Without the heat that was produced from the lights being on, the snow didn't melt causing a blockage. OOOPs not so good.
Another example of using different tools to achieve results: One city here in the SF bay area turned on its lawn sprinklers in the middle of the day for watering during a drought. The common wisdom at the time was that it was more efficient to water at an early morning hour (better absorption, less evaporation, etc.). Nobody noticed the side effect of watering around noon: It kept people from sleeping on the grass in the middle of the day.
Me: I want my 100 watt lights back so my office doesn't need to be heated and I can see better!
Re: More "efficient" but...
Considering that GE is easily getting around the "ban" of the 100W by using a slightly lower watt halogen bulb, I'm not sure you'll have a problem with either the heat or the lumen output. The "ban" is really just a requirement that a bulb put out a certain amount of light per watt. Since the bog-standard bulb, unchanged for the most part since tungsten was discovered to be a prime filament in 1910, can't keep up with that at the 100W level, it is being phased out. That's all there is to it.
Re: More "efficient" but...
"Considering that GE is easily getting around the "ban" of the 100W by using a slightly lower watt halogen bulb"
Yeah, I wrote about that below. In short, it's not as bright as a 100 watt bulb, and the light is utterly unbearable. Normally halogens look great, so I'm not even sure how they managed it, but the things are absolute trash. I was excited as hell when I saw them, but saying those bulbs 'easily get around' the regulations is like saying that a kick to the crotch would easily get around a ban on massages, because both impart energy to your body.
Re: More "efficient" but...
And in summer you'll turn up the air conditioning? Or will you swap bulbs with the season?
Yes incandescent bulbs are inefficient at producing light, did you stop to consider they are also inefficient at producing heat? You're not saving on your overall energy bill by having an 100W bulb in the room, that's just a load of nonsense.
Re: More "efficient" but...
"And in summer you'll turn up the air conditioning?"
No, I'll open the windows - I don't use AC. So in my case, at least, hot bulbs don't cost much.
Now, if you live in San Juan, incandescent would probably be a bad choice when it comes to your aircon bill...
Re: More "efficient" but...
There's another "out" in the United States. It turns out the ban on 100W incandescent bulbs didn't include specialty bulbs, such as "rough service lamps". Larry Birnbaum, an American entrepreneur, bought up manufacturing equipment as GE and Sylvania were getting out of the incandescent business and is now shipping honest-to-goodness 100W incandescent bulbs for people who want them or need them. Rough service lamps differ from standard lamps in that they have a couple of extra filament supports, making them very slightly more expensive to manufacture. See newcandescent.com.
As an aside, Larry Birnbaum's surname is apropos: "Lichtbirne", literally "light pear", is the German word for "light bulb". Birnbaum means "pear tree". This "pear" tree is bearing a rich crop of light bulbs.
Re: More "efficient" but...
"Rough service lamps differ from standard lamps in that they have a couple of extra filament supports, making them very slightly more expensive to manufacture."
Yes, I noticed one of them recently - they may be very slightly more expensive to manufacture, but this one cost $6.00 instead of the 4-for-$1.50 of normal bulbs...
It was also, of course, a sickly-yellow-light version - though at this point 'soft yellow' may end up a better compromise than 'every other color dimmer than before'.
Re: More "efficient" but...
> And in summer you'll turn up the air conditioning?
Erm, in summer you're not likely to have the lights on at all.
I agree with Herby this argument about saving money on your electricity is crap. Sure you save money on your electricity using CFLs but unless you learn to live with a colder house, you spend more money on your heating - so the net effect is that you still pollute the air just as much as you always did. The cafe we own rises 2'C over an hour when we switch the room lighting on.
What I would like to know - if they are intending to sell lightning that will last at least 10 years then either -
a) it will either cost far too much for the average person to be able to replace their existing lighting with this.
or
b) it will have to have a built in flaw that makes it fail well before it's rated lifetime.
Note we have a Philips CFL in our bathroom that is now about 18 years old, every few months it goes through a period where it flickers a lot and we think it will fail, but then it recovers and continues working just fine. No sign of it dying just yet. It weighs about the same as balloon half filled with water (is that an official el-reg measurement yet?)
Any new CFL (and by new I mean anytime in the last 6 years) - has not even managed to last a year. And don't get me started on the new Halogen based lightbulbs - they don't even manage to last the same length of time as a bog standard 60w lightbulb - and these lightbulbs are running through a dimmer with soft start at a max of 90% of 240v.
So there - that's my thoughts.
Halogens don't like dimmers
If you are running a halogen at anything other than full tilt boogie, you are shortening its life.
The whole idea of the halogen is that the envelope has to get HOT. The tungsten evaporates from the filament, and reacts with the halogen gas filling the bulb to form a tungsten halide. If the envelope is hot, the halide won't deposit on it, and the interior of the bulb will reach an equilibrium wherein just as fast as the tungsten evaporates from the filament, it will be redeposited by the tungsten halide decomposing from the heat of the filament.
If the envelope is not hot enough, that tungsten halide will deposit out on the envelope, the interior won't reach equilibrium, and eventually enough tungsten will evaporate from part of the filament to make it break.
unless you learn to live with a colder house, you spend more money on your heating
Only if you have electric heat. If you have gas heat, gas costs less just about any place I know of, and only in the winter.
If you have your windows open that heat just flies out the window. If you have Air Conditioning that you pay twice in the summer as you have to pay to pump that unwanted heat out of your house.
I replaced most of the large number (25+, stupid downlights) of 40W incandescent bulbs in my house with CFLs when I moved in 7 years ago. Some of the original Philips bulbs are still going, but cheap supermarket bulbs can fail quickly.
The best thing is that I don't have the hassle of constantly replacing bulbs, I would average only 4-6 a year, and will be less once the last of the crappy ones fail. If I used incandescents, it could be 15-20 a year. I also live in a climate where I don't want the waste heat from 6x40w bulbs in summer, and have more cost effective heating options in winter.
Re: Halogens don't like dimmers
Thanks for the info. I had wired up a halogen with a diode in one leg and was surprised that it burned out after a few months when I had expected it to basically last forever. It's a trick I've done with incandescents, but I see now why it didn't work in this case.
I like using dimmers (or diodes) for prolonging the life of incandescents, but one trick that gives spectacular life expectancy is to use a bulb rated for 220v on a 120v system like we have here. I have one "always on" light like that and I don't expect to have to replace it in my lifetime. The draw is around 1/4 it's rating, and the light output is very low, but quite adequate for it's intended purpose.
Re: Halogens don't like dimmers
My halogens in my bathroom are on a dimmer and have lasted for years now, can't remember last time I changed a bulb, but it was close to when I installed them and a flaky transformer blew.
One thing halogens DO like is soft-start, my kitchen halogens, that are on a normal switch, blow frequently.
I'm slowly replacing them with LEDs as they go.
Re: Halogens don't like dimmers
The utilities companies don't like it if you take DC out of the mains. One bulb obviously isn't enough to cause problems, but If enough folks did it, the utility company's transformers would saturate. Of course, I'm sure you always used two bulbs with the diodes feeding each one alternately. Whatever, triacs are cheap.
Re: unless you learn to live with a colder house, you spend more money on your heating
I suggest you pop onto the internet and do yourself some research and then come back to us.....
MAINS gas has even less coverage than ultrafast broadband / cable.
We for instance in the Scottish Borders not only cannot access MAINS gas, but we have been informed we will never be able to access MAINS gas. That's fine though the government isn't interested in stopping fuel poverty - they just want to make sure we can watch BBC iPlayer with less buffering while we freeze to death because we cannot afford the prices that Calor charge for LPG.
Also bear in mind that fluorescents don't like being switched off and on regularly, by doing so you are shortening their life.
So they are best used where you switch on a leave on for a long time, eg. living room or outdoors.
Re: unless you learn to live with a colder house, you spend more money on your heating
@Andrew Jones. Have you looked at an air sourced heat pump? You can fit it into your current heating system. Their COP is more than 3.5 (3.5kW heat output for 1kW electrical power) when the outside temperature is more than 7C. On days when it's very cold, which I guess you get a few of in the Borders, it's probably best to use oil fired or maybe a wood burner or whatever, but for a lot of the year it's certainly more efficient than burning the electricity in light bulbs!
Sorry, but that theory has been comprehensively debunked EXCEPT for one town in Canada, I think, where their electricity all comes from cheap and clean hydropower but their home heating is all from oil or something equally carbon-heavy. In that case they are indeed better off burning the electricity.
For the UK energy mix (and the relative cost per kWh of electricity and gas here) you'd want the CH to take the load rather than your light bulbs.
Re: Halogens don't like dimmers
Well that's odd. We have about 30 of the things in our house and they're all on dimmers, and they're mainly turned down to low light settings, and the only ones we've ever had to replace in 7 years are the ones in the one room which has its lights up to full more of the time.
Are you sure halogen lights aren't hot when turned low on a dimmer? I mean it's still an incandescent lightbulb after all, so it must get hot if it's going to emit any light at all.
Even funnier fact
If you will arrive at the same location 1 hour later, it is better that you don't turn fluorescents off since the startup takes considerable amount of power.
Like laptop shutdown vs sleep.
Re: Halogens don't like dimmers?
Rubbish! Tungsten Halogens on dimmers are absolutely fine.
They're only warm enough for the tungsten to evaporate once they're already hot enough for the halogen cycle to run. These are a pretty big part of my day job, we'd notice this!
Domestic ones are even better as the actual halogen capsule is tiny, protected inside the outer envelope so stays clean and loses less heat to the environment.
Also - run them at 90% and you increase the lifetime by around 30% with a small drop in brightness, equally, run them at 110% and the lifetime drops by about 30-50% (with a bit of a brightness boost).
Overvolting is pretty common in the UK - many lamps sold in the UK and Europe are 230V (or even 220V). In the UK, your actual mains voltage is usually 240V, sometimes (eg most of Central London) as high as 250V.
- This is also why a lot of CFLs and LED lamps are awful. They're just not designed for the mains voltage we actually have.
Flashing may kill them, but that's thermal shock snapping the supports or filament, not evaporation.
So dimmer switches can be better - soft start, can run them at the actual rated (RMS) voltage, and the option to run at 90%.
That said - GU10s are fragile as heck. Choose MR16 if you can, they last considerably longer. Low voltage halogen is also more efficacious than mains voltage of the same wattage, which is nice!
Re: Even funnier fact
I talk about old school real thing not the compact type. I have also read it in a science magazine. You can even hear the startup struggle in not so quality types.
Inverter air conditioners also exist and they save considerable amount of energy for same reason.
Do These Interface With Tin Foil Hats?
Here on the Wet Coast of Canada we have a critical mass of Letters to the Editor types who are convinced that their health is being irreparably damaged by a) cel tower radiation b) flouridation c ) smart electricity meter radiation d) WIFI radiation e) something else, not sure just what, but we're POSITIVE it's giving us headaches.
As Donald Sutherland put it. "You gotta quit with them negative waves!"
Now they'll be going on and on about these new light bulbs.
Re: Do These Interface With Tin Foil Hats?
Yes but he killed that cat
hum from the fluorescent tubes?
So either the researcher hasn't noticed the electronic high-frequency ballasts (standard in T5 fluorescents) that have been available at retail for a decade or he's a bat. They're more efficient, and don't produce sound a human can hear.
The choice of fluorescent colour-temperatures available has increased as well. Complaints about 'light X' bothering people's eyes is very subjective. I suspect that some of it is due to poor installation design. A bright light at the edge of my field of view bothers me. I was in a theatre recently which had LED lights high above the stage, angled slightly towards the audience - very annoying.
Any research team announcing a radical new way of doing something will always compare it to the worst features of the old way, even when incremental improvements have eliminated them.
Yes, I'll take the shades.
Re: hum from the fluorescent tubes?
Ooooh... Were we going??
electronic high-frequency ballasts
Canadian offices have mostly moved to T8 with Electronic ballasts (that can drive 5 single bulb fixtures). They have low voltage control so they can be turned off remotely at night, and as Allan said no hum, and no flicker (except when the bulb is about to die).
Re: hum from the fluorescent tubes?
It's really easy to retrofit electronic ballasts to existing fitting. I did it because our supply in the sticks isn't that stiff, and the lights would take an age to click on on cold winter days when the neighbours had their convection oven going. Go on eBay and search for electronic ballasts. They work great, the light comes on within 0.5 seconds, the tubes last longer, they're silent, the tube efficacy is better (more lumens) with the high frequency, there's no flicker, and they use about 20% less power.
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/NLPIP/PDF/VIEW/SREB2.pdf
Another EL panel
A new process, a new color temperature. In other words, just more of the same, and if you were not using EL panels or strings before, you won't be using EL now.
Point source lights are easier to install, and are designed to connect to mains voltage. Call me when EL has solved those problems.
Rand Paul
Kentucky's junior Senator, Rand Paul is not only opposed to more efficient light bulbs, he does not like low flow toilets. Being from KY, he thinks we need to burn more coal, and pollute more water.
He is busy this month with his newest stooge, Rep. Massie, legalizing "Industrial" Hemp.
Yeah, we need some of that Industrial Strength Hemp, if we smoke enough of it, we will become wacky enough to agree with him.
Re: Rand Paul
Your comments about "industrial" hemp show that your level of education rivals the Senator's.
The hemp plants used for such industrial purposes have no significant (i.e., too miniscule for "recreational" use) amount of THC. It's a rather incredible and useful plant, that grows well in soil that is too poor for anything else.
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