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back to article Dyson alleges spy stole 'leccy motor secrets for Bosch

British vacuum cleaner magnate Dyson has started High Court proceedings against German industrial giant Bosch, claiming its rival swiped its designs for a new generation of electric motor. Mark Taylor, Dyson's R&D chief, said: “Bosch’s VP for engineering employed a Dyson engineer and benefited from our confidential know-how and …

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Re: I can't say

Oh dear I can feel the late night call of a Kerby sales pitch

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Re: I can't say

Ah yes Kirbys. As faithfull to Murray Spangler's original pillow case and fan design as you can get. Love the way all the dirt has to go through the fan and that lovely grinding noise you get when if you happen to suck up a coin. Not to mention the dusting you have to do after you've finished vacuuming because ninety percent of what you've sucked up has been blown back into the room.

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Re: I can't say

Is that the cleaner that weighs 50kg ?

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Re: I can't say

Kirby: 1930s design, 1940s build quality, 1960s pressure marketing

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MJI
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Re: I can't say

Our vacuum cleaner is not that new and works well (Dyson)

The CR01 or 02 is about 10 years old, and limps along.

The Fridge Freezer (Bosch) is about 14 years old but the door handles have gone brittle.

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Re: I can't say

So a dyson comes with a 5 year guarantee and costs £200, for a £1000 kirby you could have 25 years of vacuuming.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I can't say

@Hardcastle.. and take a look at their website... the landing page displays..

Hello world!

Posted on: August 27th, 2012 by kirby

Welcome to WordPress. This is your first post. Edit or delete it, then start blogging!

Posted in Uncategorized | 1 Comment »

Hello World WTF.. did they sack their webmaster or something :s

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Re: I can't say

"Is that the cleaner that weighs 50kg ?"

That's the one! Never said it was portable, a breeze to maintain, or looks good; just that it sucks up dirt well!!

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Re: I can't say

My experience is the exact opposite.

I have owned a Dyson cleaner for about 6 years. It works flawlessly and I haven't had to replace anything.

I had a Bosch fridge on which the controller board failed a few months after purchase - the board was replaced under warranty. I later discovered that the defrost feature did not work. A friend had a similar Bosch fridge which had exactly the same faults, although in his case, the defrost heater element started a fire inside the fridge.

I had a Bosch washer/dryer which had a motor failure (under warranty), a pump failure (not under warranty) but the coup de grace was a controller board failure.

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Anonymous Coward

Will Apple be next in line?

Rounded corners can, after all, be construed as a derivation of the sphere. And as everyone knows, this is owned by Dyson.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Will Apple be next in line?

this story is about industrial espionage not patents but don't stop the jokes coming - they're hilarious

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Will Apple be next in line?

> Rounded corners can, after all, be construed as a derivation of the sphere. And as everyone knows, this is owned by Dyson.

Uh....that's a different Dyson. Freeman rather than James.

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MJI
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Re: Will Apple be next in line?

I think he means the ballbarrow not the other chap!

Or if he does, learn you Dysons, James is the engineer, and Freeman is Gordons dad.

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Is it just me

or are there some Bosch staff on here?

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MJI
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Re: Is it just me

Don't think so.

I am disappointed at the espionage.

Had products from both happy with both except for the washing machine near EOL and disintegrating fridge freezer plastics

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Bah!

Motors that spin so fast they melt the components they drive (like the carpet beater). Plastic components that are barely fit-for-purpose and fail (like the coupling that connects the wand to the flexible hose). Components that are designed to look good first and perform as they can a distant second (like the chest-expander hose that requires serious effort to use and collapses violently with potentially dangerous effects if a hard vacuum forms in the tube).

And the clear dirt container on my DC25 was sandblasted into opaqueness by real dirt in less than a week. I dunno what that woman on the TV ads is cleaning with hers but I speculate it is a chip-fab clean room or the lab where Attenborough's scientists insert DNA into frog cells to make dinosaurs.

No loss of suction, but if you live in a real house the carpet beater will clog so fast in use the suction is immaterial. No path for the dirt means no cleaning power and I spend more time removing and unclogging that one component than actually cleaning in any given session. Clean the curtains and expect to get body-checked by the vacuum cleaner as it charges across the room for a hug or dives down the stairs in an impressive kamikaze attack.

I also think things should just work Mr Dyson.

As for those f-tarded hand dryers which leave so little room between the plates that one's once-clean hands inevitably come into contact with the not-clean inner surface of the device: you can keep the overpriced things.

And the "annoying beat effect" you speak of with respect to ordinary electric fans while pushing yours on TV? Is it detectable with anything less than NASA-supplied audio equipment? No-one I've ever asked has so much as an inkling of what the hell you are wittering about, but we just use our ears and skins when it comes to electric fans.

Just a thought: Have you paid anyone a royalty for the cyclone separator idea you nicked from other industries?

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Re: Bah!

"or dives down the stairs"

Your instruction manual would have said to place the vacuum at the BOTTOM of the stairs and use the extending hose to reach the top. This method works perfectly and prevents damage to you and your vacuum. RTFM

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Happy

Re: Bah!

Seen our Henry do the stair-dive - and lay on its back, wheels in the air still happily sucking away.

(Many spare parts from skips as contract cleaners chuck out good stuff.)

Smiley - 'cos that's what the front of the Henry looks like

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Re: Bah!

Tve got a hennretta, awesome vacum cleaner. There is a very good reason why the vast majority of hotels use them.

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Re: Bah!

My instruction manual SAYS nothing because it is just a cartoon - presumably the numpties they expect to buy these things have no brain capacity left over for reading after filling their heads with Dyson Love.

The machine is dangerous and not fit for purpose in the real world. Do yourself a favour and buy a Hoover. Or an Electrolux. Or pretty much anything but these overpriced yuppie toys.

Were I to do as you suggest (as indeed I have) I would discover the "18 foot" long hose (per the box blurb) that came with my DC 25 is in fact only capable of about 14 feet of extension and only them if I brace myself against the pull of the internal spring that makes the hose pretty but less-than-functional.

This will eventually result in the two tiny plastic tabs which attach the hose to the pretty clicky thing that goes into the attachments to fail as they simply cannot stand such strain for long. The only way to not have this happen is to not pull the hose out too far. experiment shows that the actual useful no-danger length of the hose is about three and a half feet. When it does, you get the pleasure of forking over for a new hose because Dyson doesn't make the components separately available. I "repaired" mine with a piece of aluminum and duct tape, because without the hose the vacuum cleaner is useless for real house cleaning.

Should the stretched hose form the aforementioned hard vacuum by maybe sucking up a curtain while one is attempting to pull the hose out to a decent length, the cleaner will attempt to climb the stairs for a hug. Actual verified and repeatable case here. Of course, the vacuum isn't a light affair and when this happens, if one isn't actually properly prepared with both feet anchored and one's body leaning away from it one can be pulled abruptly down the stairs.

You clearly don't own one of these useless machines, or if you do you never use the bloody thing. I don't blame you for that. I wish I didn't have to use mine.

And as a rival vacuum cleaner firm is saying in the press of late: Why make a bagless cleaner if you only have to empty the dirt into a bag anyway? Far less messy to toss a bag, they say, and having used the Dyson now for a couple of years I have to agree. Emptying the canister is a major pain unless all that is in there is popcorn or (clean) cat-litter like on the adverts. Get some hair wound round the central drum and enjoy the process to the full as you dismantle the entire thing to get the filth out (and all over the place in the process).

RTFM? STFU.

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Nev
Gimp

Re: Bah!

" There is a very good reason why the vast majority of hotels use them."

The hotels whore them out to guests?

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Re: Bah!

Henrys are great machines that will go on forever but like any suction-only cleaner they're utter shite at cleaning carpet due to the lack of a brush/beater bar. Yes I know you can get a power head as an option but I've never seen one in the wild.

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Re: Bah!

"You clearly don't own one of these useless machines, or if you do you never use the bloody thing"

No, I have an older model, used weekly for around 10 years. The hose on mine reaches the top of the stairs in every house I've lived in (5 in the life of the vacuum so far) and works perfectly. I can only assume you have a faulty vacuum (in which case Dyson will sort it) or you're using it incorrectly, perhaps pictures were not straightforward enough for you?

I've also never had the hose collapse, although I'll confess I don't have curtains at the top of the stairs but below the top floor (you have an unusual house?!)

As for emptying, I find this incredibly easy and mess free. Put the cylinder in the bin then pull the trigger and the dirt falls into the bin. The reason bags were removed is down to loss of suction, and the mess caused when they rip or accidentally get squeezed after removal and squirt the dirt all over your house.

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MJI
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Re: Bah!

Ours is fine too, just needs a new foam filter base

So far I have had to strip and clean the cyclone once in all the time we had it, why we got it is funny.

My wife wanted a Dyson we had a DC02 (I think, now in garage, power head worn out, but fine for car), her mum bought a purple newer model, but it gave her back ache as the metal pipe was too short. So she bought something else and my wife grabbed the Dyson.

My wife then extended the metal pipe and it was fine.

We still use it.

3 Dyson products, support can be good, but as before the washing machine is on borrowed time.

I am disappointed with Bosch, they are good enough to do this them selves, why espionage?

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Re: Bah!

"Your instruction manual would have said to place the vacuum at the BOTTOM of the stairs and use the extending hose to reach the top."

My dyson has that on a sticker too.

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Happy

Re: Henry

Best Vac. I've ever bought.

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Re: Bah!

I've got a Dyson upright - no idea of the number.

It doesn't get used much because neither I nor my partner can lift the thing. Once we've unravelled the peculiar hose/handle/switch (why the hell doesn't it turn off when you stand it up again? and why do you have to stand on the FRONT to pivot the handle?)), the suction is so powerful it keeps trying to suck the hose back into its body.

You can't beat tne Hoover Constellation (the round ones) - had one for years, never gave any problem.

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MJI
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Re: Borrowed time

Just had a letter from Dyson today, no more support from mid December, no spares from end of December and an offer of £50 off at Comet if you pay more than £450.

OK El Reg, can we have washing machine reviews please?

Oh and the M-I-L has offered to pay - again.

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World beating

I trust that's world beating as it sweeps as it cleans. God I'm getting old.

I've got one of the Dyson fans (or air multipliers as they wankily like to call them). I dunno about the hi-techtitude of the brushless motors but they sound like Concorde starting up on a cold morning.

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Re: World beating

Hoover did, in those days, beat as it sweeps as it cleans.

Old. You and me both.

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Re: World beating

Ahh, the old hoover senior..

A rotating brush bar was fitted to most 70's vacuum cleaners, then they seemed to dissapear, only to reappear years later and be touted as an "add on". Only expensive vacuum cleaners have a rotating brush these days. It's a con to sell you something "new" that had been around for 20 years.....

Like poor quality digitally compressed TV. Analouge was a far better picture than the shit we get to today (unless you have HD and its associated costs)..

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MJI
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Unhappy

Re: World beating

At first digital was much better, then they started slashing the bit rate.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: HD TV

I receive 4 HD channels which cost me nothing more than the TV license I am required to pay for anyway.

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Vic
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Re: World beating

> At first digital was much better

No it wasn't. Digital TV has passed through a lossy compressor; the "gold standard" of that is to get it indistinguishable from the uncompressed analogue feed.

> then they started slashing the bit rate.

That makes it worse, sure.

Vic.

[Who has built quite a few digital TV systems around the world...]

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MJI
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Re: World beating

If digital is worse why was digital TV better at picture than analogue.

I did the head to head quite a few years ago. TV was widescreen and IDTV.

BBC1 on 1 was clear, detailed, looked like a DVD.

BBC1 on 91 was noisy, not widescreen, even with edge enhancement lowered it looked poorer.

Definately not as good now as when it was first introduced, when they still used bit rates at DVD level.

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Vic
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Re: World beating

> If digital is worse why was digital TV better at picture than analogue.

It wasn't.

> BBC1 on 91 was noisy

Then you had a poor signal. Analogue TV will always degrade with signal loss, whereas digital can cover it.

But if you sort the signal out, the analogue picture quality is better because it is the same souirce, but uncompressed, whereas the digital signal has been through a lossy compressor.

Vic.

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MJI
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Re: World beating

Same aerial same transmitter.

Analogue was not as great as people thought, what is broadcast is NOT what is transferred around in the studios,

Digital definately looked better, much better colour, resolution was similar.

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Anonymous Coward

A New Generation of Electric Motor?

Sounds more impressive than A Minor Enhancement of Electric Motor.

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I can say

Dyson customer service has been a model to note in my experience. Recently my venerable DC03 gave up the ghost after 15 years of sucking, i think i replaced the filters 4 or 5 times in that entire period. I called the Dyson helpline, they were very apologetic, but given the age of the machine, they could no longer provide any support. Instead they offered me £100.00 (yes One Hundred pounds) off any new machine on the website. Once i had picked myself up off the floor i chose a new model and paid over the phone. New machine arrived 2 days later and they took the old one away too, not bad. New machine ( a DC39 with a ball thing) sucks like a god, but will probably not be around in 15 years time.

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MJI
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Re: I can say

Well we would get our washing machine checked but how long before the drum bearing fails and it is scrap.

Never needed support for the vacuums, I just strip and clean occasionally and they keep going.

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well i thought all the german spies were caught during the war. question is why have they waited so long and why have they gone after cyclone technology? the second question is how could cyclone technology be allowed to fall into the wrong hands? freeman dyson has a lot to answer for he should never have allowed cyclone technology to be advertised on tv. i always thought watching those adverts: shhhhhhhhhh. now looks what happens. Meanwhile the politicians are worried about nuclear technology in iran but noone is focusing on the real threat of cyclone technology in germany.

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MJI
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Cyclones

A common concept, been used for Diesel loco air filters, JD saw it on wood saws.

James Dyson is VERY good at thinking of new uses for established ideas. The cyclone vacuum cleaner is so obvious once you see one, but he produced one first.

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Up your's Bosch

11 years ago I had a Bosch fridge-freezer which failed expensively (uneconomical to repair) just outside warranty. As I'd heard of several similar failures, I decided to investigate the problem myself, and came to the same conclusion as their service engineer - that the controller PCB had failed.

However on closer inspection and with little more than schoolboy maths it was obvious that the PCB copper area that they'd allowed for sinking heat from the voltage regulator was insufficient. This had led to catastrophic failure of the processor - along with it's embedded program.

An email to the European CEO with the calculations and explanation got a new fridge-freezer delivered by Bosch themselves a few days later.

In case you're wondering, I did check the new fridge-freezer's controller PCB and they'd redesigned it, so obviously they'd known all along.

Company's can be bastards - or they can be fair. Bosch only did the right thing only when pushed, so I've steered clear of them (where possible) since. I know they make some good stuff but they've lost my custom.

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Happy

I used to think dyson was a prick...

He sold overpriced bright plastic tat, was far too patent happy and often succumbed to not-invented-here syndrome (basically the steve jobs of domestic appliances)

Then I brought one for my mother.

They are simply objectively better machines, the amount of thought put into the ergonomics of every little feature is palpable, they are bag-less and have washable filters, they clean better and pretty much anything you could conceivably break is user replaceable. The guy is trying to sell you not only a vac for life, but the best vac he can possibly build. You could use the thing every day for a year and still find some new ingenious little feature that makes you stop and marvel at how much effort has gone into the device.

I've tended towards thinking that the people who complain loudly that theirs exploded after 2 weeks when they tried to suck up a single mote of dust (of which there seem to be no shortage) are the engineering equivalent of people who stick there PC out on the kerb the first time windows fails to boot, having spent the last 6 months installing every dodgy browser toolbar and search assistant they could get their hands on.

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Re: I used to think dyson was a prick...

What he said, except I never thought he was a prick, just someone who worked and worked at an idea until he got it to work.

The only thing wrong with my ball Dyson is that I got the small one designed for flats, rather than the big one for houses. So the lead and hose is a a bit short.

By Christ, it's a good vacuum cleaner though. 5 years old, still running well.

Now nicked my parents big ball one (too heavy for the AP's), and that's even better!

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Re - I used to think dyson was a prick...

I still do. I always get the heaves when I see all that garish plastic and complicated shapes. As for innovation, the cyclone priciple was known about for donkey's years prior to it's use in the household vacuum cleaner.. Woodworking factories always had a huge one outside to separate wood dust and shavings from the vacuum pipes from the machines, and it's cousin, the hydrocyclone was used to great effect at removing metal and abrasive dust from the coolant flows on grinding machines. For myself, I'm still using a Hoover vacuum cleaner that was possibly manufactured before the war. And it still beats as it sweeps as it cleans

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Re: Re - I used to think dyson was a prick...

"As for innovation, the cyclone priciple was known about for donkey's years prior to it's use in the household vacuum cleaner.. "

Ah yes, the traditional application of that age-old Hindsight Obviousness Principle: it was used in markets C through F for "donkey's years", so its use in market A must have been "obvious" and the fact that nobody else appears to have actually done so, despite said claims for "obviousness" is utterly irrelevant.

There's a big difference between knowing a particular set of technologies might work in a different market, given substantial R&D to work out the kinks, and actually putting your damned money where your mouth is, taking the gamble, doing that expensive R&D work, then designing, marketing and selling the new product.

Dyson didn't just buy in some off-the-shelf components and nail them into a box. A lot of design and research has gone into their products. (Yes, their marketing gets hyperbolic, but then, so does Ford's. And you wouldn't believe the industrial quantities of bullshit the likes of Beiersdorf get away with. They make even Apple's marketing look humble by comparison.)

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MJI
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Re: Re - I used to think dyson was a prick...

But unlike you he made the connection and worked for a long time to make it work.

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Re: Nobody else hassactually done so...

Evidently there were no cyclone vacuum cleaners before James Dyson brought one out. He then immediately had imitators to deal with using patents, which he did successfully as far as I know. That's what patents are for. He'd invented the deceptively simple ball wheelbarrow and apparently got shafted by American manufacturers, so he reasonably has a grim determination to not have that happen again, unless I'm thinking of somebody else. The television advert actually explains how all of the bits are patented so that no one else can legally make a vacuum cleaner just like those. Although some of those patents must be expired or expiring?

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Joke

Obviously insignificant

Why is this even an issue?! I mean a bespoke piece of machinery, developed over 15 years after 100 million is invested into it is hardly a cause for a patent dispute.

If, on the other hand, we were dealing with a slide-to-unlock hose unplugging mechanism "on a mobile device"(cos it's got wheels, natch), then I'd fully understand vast amounts of money being spent to ban everyone else who used anything that seemed even remotely similar, despite how brain-numbingly obvious such a system is.

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