Windows 8: Is Microsoft's new OS too odd to handle?
The big question. You are happily trundling along with Windows 7 and everything is fine. Should you upgrade to Windows 8, at Microsoft's tempting price of £24.99, or $39.99, for a downloadable copy? There is always the safe option of leaving well alone, but tell that to anyone who regretted installing Windows Vista and had to …
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Re: Windows 8? No thank you.
To me, that link really sums up all the guff hype surrounding Windows 8/Metro/Surface WindowsWankFest launch.
expect the howls of dismay from users trying Windows 8 for the first time to quieten eventually
I don't know, lots of techy people who pride themselves on being smarter than average PC users still can't figure out the Ribbon. I'm sure the same people will deliberately not learn how to use W8 so they can complain about it for the next 5 years.
Re: Ribbon
Yes it still makes no sense what so ever to me.
File Edit FTW
Re: expect the howls of dismay from users trying Windows 8 for the first time to quieten eventually
They won't have to wait 5 years. Within nine months, that fuck-ugly abortion of an interface will look about a 'hip' and 'groovy' as one of Jimmy Saville's old shirts, and Microsoft will be struggling to rush a new de-Metroised Windows 9 out to market.
Re: expect the howls of dismay from users trying Windows 8 for the first time to quieten eventually
The Ribbon isn't really *that* different from a Toolbar. If your "techy people" honestly can't manage to use it I think maybe they need to pick up a copy of "Computing for Dummies" and stop considering themselves smarter than the average PC user (or hamster for that matter).
Re: expect techies to neuter the Win8 experience
The techies will quickly apply every available hack and revert Win8 back to something they like. In effect they won't be using Win8 as MS reimagined it and won't need to complain.
MS will make their usual mistake of assuming folk are still using the bad features and must love them to not complain.
Re: expect techies to neuter the Win8 experience
"MS will make their usual mistake of assuming folk are still using the bad features and must love them to not complain."
Yes. Running the Enterprise 90 day trial (third time I've run 8, so vague impressions are coalescing into firm opinions). This is the first time I've run with 'Classic Shell', the installation of which made me think 'Windows 8 - any colour you like as long as it's black' (to paraphrase). Next I thought - might have occured earlier but so automatic after all these years it barely registers on consciousness - that the forcing Metro on PC users is a bit like the way MS still have all those fucking awful sounds and animation/fade/slide effects enabled by default, which I disable as about the first thing I do after any Windows install. And while plenty of non-geek users apparently don't even realize you can turn that shit off, there are actually some who don't mind it!
But at least you have the option to turn that shit off. The sounds annoy me - like people using mobile phones on trains annoy me (particularly in the Quiet Zone coaches); while the visuals are like a far off echo of the nausea I recall from too long playing Wolf 3D.
I think Henry Ford had some justification for Ford's lack of choice, given how new his industry was at the time. Microsoft, oth, for not providing the choice of a Start Menu instead of the Start Screen - imho - can go swivel.
Re: The Ribbon isn't really *that* different from a Toolbar.
Which shows the problem. Any toolbar is instantly removed on my system. Unless it's a creativity program, in which case it might be well laid out with a line of icons. If you mean a "menu bar", I'm fine with those, but they have text, not icons. I NEVER mix the two. It makes navigation a horror.
Re: expect the howls of dismay from users trying Windows 8 for the first time to quieten eventually
We use MS Orifice 2010 at work. My problem is *predicting* which part of the ribbon a certain feature will be found in. I can't seem to grok it at all. Lines are in 'basic shapes', making a table have equal column widths across a page gets me every time. And I find the maths formula editor a real pain. I just use the portable version of Open Orifice (actually LiverOrifice) on a usb stick.
MS Orifice 2003? No big issues. Works on Wine as well.
Talking of which, another glass....
Re: expect the howls of dismay from users trying Windows 8 for the first time to quieten eventually
....and Microsoft will be struggling to rush a new de-Metroised Windows 9 out to market.
& probably claiming all manner of 'new' features with it!
Re:the ribbon
Why should I go to the effort? I have been able to use MS Word since it first appeared in Windows, I use it occasionally, like once or twice a week.
Where is File Save, File Saveas, something I am used to on lots of programs?
I have much more important things to do with my time than waste it on learning a tool I only need to use very occasionally, and one I knew how to use before they messed it up.
If I am going to sit there learning, I would rather learn something usefull, like improving my C knowleage. Now what is more useful to me, learning ribbon and what each pretty little picture does,or XML and JSON.
On my new work PC (Win7 64bit) I wanted to look at newsgroups, but I could not make head nor tail of the Win 7 Outlook Express replacement, so I took the easy route and downloaded Thunderbird. Most ribbon infected programs have non ribbon infected shareware or freeware alternatives
They want people to use their "App Store" so they can get in on the profit like Apple has... and No. Sorry. Just No. I want nothing to do with their abortion of a UI, and I definitely don't want anything to do with their App Store.
The "closed garden" approach that Apple made popular is something I wish would just die a horrible death.
Windows 8 task manager?
Well they've finally improved it... it's now almost half as good as the freeware Process Explorer utility from sysinternals.com. (which has been owned by MS for years) Why this excellent utility wasn't included with XP on up is a mystery to me.
Re: Windows 8 task manager?
Well, everyone wants a pretty task manager, don't they? Personally, I always want to be visually dazzled and inspired while forcing my unresponsive applications to shut down. I hope it comes in that special shade of purple - you know, the colour of someone's vomit after drinking red wine - that we are seeing in all the pictures.
Re: Windows 8 task manager?
"special shade of purple - you know, the colour of someone's vomit after drinking red wine "
I knew I'd seen that colour before.
Re: Windows task manager?
The pretty essential utility that show you which part of the OS is slowing the system to a crawl this time.
Re: Windows 8 task manager?
Looks just like a Linux Process manager to me. I'd only just tried Linux this year and was like "Wow, this looks so much nicer than windows".
Granted, I find Windows 7 task manager/resource manager quite helpful and better than most the older windows versions.
Who moved my cheese?
Been running the full version for a couple of weeks now, and it's not half as bad as everyone seems to think. Metro apps are content driven so aren't particularly useful, the app store is near empty, and metro apps on low dpi screens don't use clear type, so they look a bit rubbish to be honest, but...
It's faster than win7, and you really don't have to use the metro side of things if you don't want to. Just pin everything to your task bar. You'll be surprised how few apps you actually use.
The excitement over shutting down the computer - win7: mouse bottom left, click, up a bit, click, right a bit click, vs. windows 8: mouse right, up, click, down, click, down click, or..... press the off button.
And then the where's my start button gone? it's on your keyboard....
Cue the haters...
Re: Who moved my cheese?
I've been pressing the Off button to shut down my machine since XP SP2, and possibly longer.
It's even the default functionality under Windows 7 - Vista was the one with the broken default (Sleep!)
My keyboard doesn't have a Start button. It's got a "Windows Logo" button that looks just like the Windows Logo used in the Windows 7 menu that it opens.
So clearly, the Windows 8 version of the keyboard should have a blank, unlabelled key to open the Start Screen.
And GET YOUR ****ING HANDS OFF MY CHEESE. It's pretty clear that you've never actually read that book, as the key point it makes is that change for the sake of change is stupid, as all change causes a loss of productivity in the short term. Change has to have clear reasons, and offer clear benefits to all users or it will create resentment, be passively fought, and even actively sabotaged.
Re: Who moved my cheese?
It's not 'who moved my cheese?'
It's 'who moved my cheese from the cupboard to the bathroom?'
Microsoft took a perfectly good OS (windows 8) and stuck a stupid, poorly thought out metro interface on it. I swear it's designed to get you to run your mouse over as many tiles as possible. Why is 'all apps' hidden with a right click?
No, people aren't pissed that their cheese is moved, it's that it's moved to stupid, complicated, hidden places. The shutdown menu as you pointed out, Why? Is Start > Shutdown just too much.
Windows 8 is like two operating systems at one. Power users can use their keyboard to get stuff done quickly if they know the magic (I do, but hell, now it now just like using Linux). For the rest of the world that will never learn the shortcuts Windows is dolled up like a fancy whore that has fancy makeup and flashy bits you have to go thru to get to what you wanted to do in the first place.
Re: Who moved my cheese?
"Cue the haters"
Yes. Well, the way my ex put it, was that I don't suffer fools gladly.
Re: Who moved my cheese?
"Just pin everything to your task bar. You'll be surprised how few apps you actually use."
Upvoted for this quote alone. As a penguin in the privacy of my own home, the Ubuntu Unity launcher has made me realise that, yes, 95% of what I do is only 7 apps or so (albeit one of those is terminal). I've defined a consistent set of keyboard shortcuts across Debian Squeeze; Ubuntu 12.10; and Ubuntu 12.04 with mad-scientist IceWM window manager (much under-rated). Just fine, thanks.
Re: Who moved my cheese?
"Just pin everything to your task bar. You'll be surprised how few apps you actually use."
Bullshit. I used this particular machine to test that unmitigated abortion, Mac OS X 10.8 (which will _never_ hit a production machine under my control. Never.) I reformatted it when the test was over, as that was the easiest way to get rid of the stink. That was about three weeks ago. I just got back to the main office after a week in Orlando (long story, but no, I was not making a pilgrimage to the Mouse) which means that I've only used it about two weeks since the complete reformat. Apple has, under the Apple menu, a list of recently used applications. The current list includes:
MS Word
MS Excel
MS Powerpoint
Activity Monitor
Acrobat
Photoshop
Dreamweaver
FireWorks
InDesign
Carbon Copy Cloner
DVD Player
DiskWarrior
Network Utility
Sophos Anti Virus
Terminal
TextWrangler
Pages
Safari
Firefox
Opera
Console
VLC
Little Snitch
And that's just the stuff I've used _recently_. One reason why i detest OS X 10.7 and later is that Apple is trying to enforce the use of their idiotic application manager, and even that, bad as it is, is far better than The Interface Formerly Known As Metro. And you can kill it. You can't kill TIFKAM.
Re: Who moved my cheese?
Oh, awesome, you're quoting that awful little children's book management throws on people's desks when they're about to be fired. Please, tell us more about your years of UI design (when you haven't been working for Human Resources).
Re: Who moved my cheese?
That lot is about 8 or 9 applications in Ubuntu, along with the desktop itself and the terminal. Whatever.
Classic Shell anyone?
I'm surprised that in an article about the "oddness" of Windows 8, no mention was made of things that could make the transition from Windows 7 easier, with Classic Shell - see http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/ - being the most obvious one. I suspect Windows 8+Classic Shell+booting straight into desktop mode could actually be a decently similar experience for ex-Windows 7 users...unless you're running Windows RT, in which case you're royally stuffed.
Re: Classic Shell anyone?
It's mostly because they're crap. And pointless. After a brief period of getting used to the change, they just seem as clunky as the Start menu does. It's the same argument as was heard when Program Manager/File Manager were replaced by Explorer and the Start Menu, yet you don't see everyone clamouring for their return.
Re: Classic Shell anyone?
Actually I still miss BackDesk/BackMenu for Windows 3.1 :-\
http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue145/42_Two_shareware_musth.php
Re: Program Manager
Personally I never heard anyone say a good thing about the old Program Manager, it was a clunky abomination everyone hated. And of course MS didn't actually remove it in Win95, if you were clinically insane enough to want to carry one using it.
Nice strawman for the apologists though.
Website resizes window to fill screen. I try to grab right edge to shrink it. Charm bar grabs my focus. Shit.
Five attempts later I managed to drag it before the charmless bar got in the way.
Not pleased. There's a good reason good ui's don't hide interface elements behind invisible trigger zones. Unless your mission is driving users away from the desktop...
This. It's a productivity nightmare for me if any software (or device) hides GUI elements of data. Yes, it might just be me (it actually is, long story), but it's a feature I just cannot use.
You're holding it wrong...
You're supposed to click on the window icon or if the program doesn't allow it, press Alt-Space when the window has focus, then choose Size, then press the right cursor key to choose the right side of the window, then hold the left cursor key to move the right hand side of the window, then hit Return.
This is so obvious and user-friendly that there's no need to include any visual cues to help you to remember how to do it, in the same way that the Charms bar is so obvious and user-friendly too there's no need to include any visual cues for that either. As these elements are so user friendly we can therefore summise that there's a clear improvement in end-user productivity.
Windows 8 is just a step between Windows 7 and Windows 9. Windows 9 will remove every single visual cue available, operate only in full-screen mode, and fully complete the transition the user over to shortcut keys, therefore making the next version of Windows the most productive ever yet curiously having a look and feel like Emacs.
Prettier interface? 1366 x 768
Task manager in Windows 8 has a prettier interface? Pretty is not a word i would use.
Anyone used to the Sysinternals suite (Microsoft) has seen this screen before. New? No.
Windows 8, as the Customer Preview version, installed and ran fine on a desktop, but often looked more like a 'display add-on' to Windows 7.
It is faster, IE10 is quite a bit faster and copying files appears to have had some performance improvements made, apart from the ease of instant access to other devices, iso file formats and so on
What will put most off, is the HARDWARE that WILL cause the RELEASE version of WIndows INSTALL to FAIL - even though its perfect (and sometimes Logo'ed) for Windows 7.
Intel must be laughing all the way to the bank.
Then there are those 1280x1024 screens out there in offices that will cause Windows 8 to STOP and will NOT WORK. (no, not the graphics cards, the screens)
MS has hardened the install to 1366 x 768 minimum and so far haven't found a way round this as I did in the Customer Preview release.
Shares in new screen sales will go up! Samsung must be laughing!
Re: Prettier interface? 1366 x 768
>>> What will put most off, is the HARDWARE that WILL cause the RELEASE version of WIndows INSTALL to FAIL
What hardware? And with citations!
>>> MS has hardened the install to 1366 x 768 minimum
Bullshit. The minimum resolution for Windows 8 is 1024 x 768 px. Some features such as "snap" require 1,366 by 768 px to work.
You want to contradict that, again - citations please.
Re: Prettier interface? 1366 x 768
Yeah I'm struggling with this one.
I've installed Windows 8 on hardware dating back to 2005. It all installed flawlessly except for the Bluetooth stack which the Vista driver sorted out.
It actually installs better (in terms of hardware recognition) than Windows 7 in my experience.
Arrgghh 'snap'
I'd like to kick the <redacted> out of the person who dreamed that one up.
Sure you can disable it. Well, not on my corporate W7 laptop you can't. It is locked down for security reasons.
Re: Prettier interface? 1366 x 768
Badmonkey, I'm not sure about failing to install, but from what I've just read there are all kinds of issues with Metro not working correctly on the 5:4 ratio. Applications not coming up, screen locking at black.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/sorry-power-users-windows-8-is-built-for-small-displays/4620
This gives a little insight on why odd stuff like this may happen.
Re: Prettier interface? 1366 x 768
Can't seem to see YOUR citations. Do unto others...
I'm with Johnson on this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDSPB5Bj8GQ
Simple to fix...
Just allow Metro to be disabled, and reinstate the start menu. Without those two things fixed, Win 8 has no interest for me.
I have played with it for a few days, and it just makes everything more awkward. There's no reason for me to upgrade from Win 7 just to give myself added frustration.
Question
Quote:- Another feature migrated from the server side of the OS is Storage Spaces, which lets you consolidate multiple drives into a single expandable pool of storage.
Is'nt that the same as the LVM system some linux distros have had for ages?
Re: Question
Really, really no. I suggest you actually go read up on what Storage Spaces are.
Re: Question
What does whether Linux had something ages ago that Windows just got have to do with the here and now? The only people I can see caring are those about to step into a time machine. And Linux zealots. Bit of a pointless question really.
Re: Question
Shhhh... how dare you mention open source??
when I build a new machine
I won't bother to "upgrade"
I tried that with the preview, it didn't really work too well, ended up formatting to go back. The "apps" page was such a mess
Some things wound me up too much but I liked others so not rushing but won't avoid.
Building a new PC
Not for myself, but for my girlfriend, and for the hell of it, it's getting 8. But before I've even got the machine built, I've made sure to buy Stardock's Start8. I'll be instantly disabling hot corners, and pretty much anything metro. Straight to desktop with a Windows 7 style start menu. Then it's fully digestible, and won't be much of a pain.
The fact remains, the two UI cluster-fu.. of Windows 8 is simply horrible. Two IEs, two control panels, multiple ways of doing the same thing, and they didn't give us what we wanted in the end - Windows 7 polished to a mirror shine. They introduced more inconsistencies and made it more of a mess.
At least Start8 helps by letting you effectively ignore all the new crap.
Re: Building a new PC
"...effectively ignore all the new crap."
Which you paid extra for?
hplasm
Depends on the massive subsidies MS are applying to get it out the door. :P
Might make up for the cost of time disabling Metro.
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