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back to article Arctic ice shrinks to ‘smallest in satellite era’ - NASA

NASA has tossed its coin into the “shrinking Arctice sea ice” kitty with images showing that on August 26, “sea ice dipped to its smallest extent ever recorded in more than three decades of satellite measurements”. Noting that the 2012 melt season could still have weeks to run, the NASA measurements compare the August 26 …

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          1. peter_dtm
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            Re: Big Storm

            so how do we now that this is abnormal ?

            We now that there has been trade around the Arctic BY SEA for all of recorded history; some times it is easier - other times harder.

            We do know that in the past both Poles have been entirely ice free (Hot House Earth conditions)

            We do know that the current interglacial has lasted longer than average.

            We also know previous interglacial have been warmer.

            So let's think about this : We have absolutely NO IDEA if the apparently cyclic coverage of the poles is natural or not.. We have no indications that the climate is particularly unstable in the warm direction from an interglacial

            We have all of history (the planet's history; not the brief insignificant period of H Sap's presence) telling us that the climate WILL almost certainly become very much colder in the near future.

            Apart from lots of very bad models (which apparently only do projections NOT predictions) why is anyone in the least concerned ?

            Increasing CO2 causes warming. The climate appears (historically) to be bistable and unlikely to be approaching a tripping point caused by CO2 when CO2 is at an historic LOW (if you doubt this; then please explain why plants evolved such that they appear to be CO2 bound until the concentration exceeds 1000ppm - in other words C3 photosynthesis evolved during a very much richer CO2 period than the present paltry 380 ppm)

            The climate changes - long live change !

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            1. Wilco 1
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              Thumb Down

              Re: Big Storm

              In the past the Earth used to be a barren place of molten rock with pure acid as rain. So what? The climate has been different in the past and will be different in the future. However it has been very stable over the last few thousand years, and humankind is very dependent on this very stable climate. So it is in our interest to keep it stable rather than doing an unprecedented experiment with CO2 concentration. Long live change = many millions of people drowning, starving, fighting over scarce resources.

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              1. peter_dtm
                Reply Icon
                FAIL

                Re: Big Storm Wilco1

                However it has been very stable over the last few thousand years

                tosh

                Roman Warm Period

                Dark Ages

                Middle Ages Warm Period

                Little Ice Age

                We are in an INTREGLACIAL - and a not very warm one. The last ice age almost killed us off; the last warm period caused us to thrive

                Stable climate my backside. The climate is probably Bistable - Hot House (NO ice at the poles) and Ice House (Ice present at one or both poles). We are still (that is STILL) in ICE HOUSE earth. Albeit in an INTERGLACIAL. An interglacial that is already over average length; so we are due (over due) to descend into another glacial period. This interglacial is not as warm as the last one by the way. Ice House Earth may be bistable - Glacial and inter glacial. With most time spent in the Glacial phase. Guess what - glacial is way way way worse for bio-diversity and humans than interglacial are.

                Drowning - from a sea level rise that is slowing down - currently at mm per decade ? If you are in the UK - go to Barrow in Furness; East Side (Morecambe Bay side) - go to the shore - its about 1 foot above high water - its been that way since Roman times. If sea level rise was as large as claimed; why is Rampside not flooded ?

                Read up on graves in Greenland. Farms exposed by 'retreating' glaciers in Switzerland; what the tundra permafrost hides in the way of dead plants; then explain how that all happened if it wasn't globally warmer in the recent past.

                You need to get some time line perspective too; a few THOUSAND years ? - not even visible on the timeline of O2 rich Earth.

                If we stop the production of cheap energy; how do you plan to keep the world fed ? Any idea how much food we could produce and get to the consumers if we cut back even 20% never mind 80% of CHEAP RELIABLE EFFICIENT energy generation ? Scarce FOOD resources due to lack of : Fertilizers; mechanised farming; chilling and freezing plants; cheap DISTRIBUTION (any idea how much food is needed by London ? check it out; work out how to get that into the metropolitan centres without MODERN CHEAP ENERGY dependant utilities). Go on - do the maths; work it out; find out how much food the UK imports. What sort of harvests are produced by 'organic' farming compared with commercial farming; then explain how you plan to feed the world.

                There has NEVER been a stable climate.

                We are in a CO2 starved period of the earth's long O2 rich history (again; explain why plants are evolved for a far higher CO2 concentration than is presently available). Look up C3 and C4 photosynthesis and why C4 is believed to be a RECENT adaptation to LOW CO2 concentrations.

                We ( the whole biosphere) do far better in WARM periods than in cold (compare the abundance of species in the tropics compared to the comparative LACK of diversity in the Polar regions).

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                1. NomNomNom
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                  Re: Big Storm Wilco1

                  "However it has been very stable over the last few thousand years

                  tosh

                  Roman Warm Period

                  Dark Ages

                  Middle Ages Warm Period

                  Little Ice Age"

                  Not tosh at all. Those changes were less than 1 degree C. The holocene has been remarkably stable. Human agriculture and civilization has only existed during a very stable period in climate.

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  2. Mystic Megabyte

    Colder winters?

    According to this study the extra heat in the Arctic can create colder winters in North America and Northern Europe. An accumulation of high pressure forces colder air southwards and makes the jet stream meander more. Anyone remember the winter of 2010?

    I wonder what this coming winter will be like.

    http://phys.org/news/2012-06-arctic-ice-stage-cold-weather.html

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  3. historymaker118
    Mushroom

    BREAKING NEWS! Ice is melting in the summer!

    Apparently the well documented fact that ice melts in warm weather that comes during the summer calls for headlines to be written and articles scaremongering 'global warming' <- or should that be 'climate change' these days?

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    1. Michael M
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      Re: BREAKING NEWS! Ice is melting in the summer!

      For the last 1400 years summer ice levels have never before dropped below 8 million square km (Kinnard et al, 2011) and now, in the last 30 years they have dropped below 5 million. So, what's this natural process that has just occurred in recent times then?

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      1. Swarthy
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        Re: BREAKING NEWS! Ice is melting in the summer!

        Very nice citation, now where's the matching reference so that others may find it?

        A citation is a pointer to which reference you are referencing, it is not a reference in and of itself.

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        1. Michael M
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          Re: BREAKING NEWS! Ice is melting in the summer!

          Reconstructed changes in Arctic sea ice over the past 1,450 years

          Christophe Kinnard, Christian M. Zdanowicz, David A. Fisher, Elisabeth Isaksson, Anne de Vernal & Lonnie G. Thompson

          Nature 479, 509–512 (24 November 2011)

          or googling "Kinnard arctic" gives it as the top hit.

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          1. Swarthy
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            Re: BREAKING NEWS! Ice is melting in the summer!

            Thank you.

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  4. Identity
    FAIL

    Nobody seems to have noticed...

    that the real issue with Arctic sea ice melt is how it is affecting the ecosystem. Polar bears and seals use sea ice. Without it, numbers are decreasing. Eskimos use it, but are now finding that their villages are perilously close to the edge, forcing them to move back at great cost, monetarily, culturally, etc. This is not speculation or fear mongering. It is happening now. Even the Republican Governor of Alaska expresses concern.

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    1. David Neil
      Reply Icon
      WTF?

      Re: Nobody seems to have noticed...

      So the natives are finding their villages are now closer to the edge of the sea ice?

      Given they are on land I would suspect that means the ice is spreading, or did you mean something else?

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    2. peter_dtm
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      Identity Posted Tuesday 28th August 2012 13:56 GMT

      and graves that have been dug in normal soil are buried in permafrost in Greenland --> which implies that Greenland used to be warmer than it is now. Back around the Middle Ages Warm Period. I wonder how the Vikings managed to dig graves in permafrost - did they use space heaters to warm it up ?

      The Tundra contains much plant material that is currently frozen in the permafrost. For those plants to have grown and thrived as they did; then the currently frozen tundra must have NOT been frozen.

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  5. ray hartman
    Flame

    Polar bear steak anyone

    Well the furry seal-slashing buggers can't just keep swimming now can they? Who wants PBs showing up in Seattle to eat chem-tainted salmon best left for $900/day guided fishermen! What else? Can we build 50,000 sq miles of ACed styrofoamed floating Las Vegas for the toothy carnivores?

    So I say do 'em a favor ... don't fake 'em -- bake 'em! And the local (human) Florida babes will look great in fluffy white polar-bear-hide bikinis come winter.

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  6. Lusty
    FAIL

    Square kilometers is not a measure of the volume of ice in the Arctic.

    Scientists do not draw conclusions about climate from looking at pictures.

    Climate Scientists do not draw conclusions using a dataset measured in decades.

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    1. Battsman
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      Mushroom

      Datasets measured in decades.

      While I agree with your point in general, I have to observe that it might warrant concern that sea rise has been accelerating in the past 20 years and weather variability appears to have increased as well. So while looking at the Earths climate over decades seems silly based on the overall age of the Earth - we humans who define our lives over the span of just a few decades might actually want draw a few conclusions....

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      1. Lusty
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        Re: Datasets measured in decades.

        Things accelerate in nature all the time, doesn't mean it's bad and doesn't mean it's good but we need reasonable datasets to make these sorts of decisions :)

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  7. Battsman

    Re: Datasets measured in decades.

    Based on that logic and your statement "Climate Scientists do not draw conclusions using a dataset measured in decades," we could never take any action on anything climate related unless a 100 to 200 year trend was indicated. That position is demonstrably false - e.g.: CFCs and Ozone depletion.

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    1. Lusty
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      Re: Datasets measured in decades.

      CFC and ozone wasn't affecting the climate though, it was affecting the weather. Given the reactionist overhyped nature of this subject, I certainly do think we should ignore them until they have 100 years of data, if not more.

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  8. Arnold Lieberman

    Did anyone mention the Antarctic?

    Howz the ice doing there?

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    1. peter_dtm
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      Re: Did anyone mention the Antarctic?

      still increasing year on year - apart from the Antarctic peninsula which has an undersea volcano keeping it a tad warmer .... Strangely there are more thermometers in the Antarctic peninsula than there are in the whole of the rest of the Antarctic

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      1. Burb
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        Re: Did anyone mention the Antarctic?

        Hint: Why don't you read up about the difference between sea ice and land ice.

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        1. peter_dtm
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          Re: Did anyone mention the Antarctic? sea ice - land ice -> burb

          right

          which would then lead to the question :

          Since Arctic ice is FLOATING then if it melts; will that result in Sea Level Rise ? NO

          Nor is the Greenland Ice cap melting at a worrying rate; it has been here done this before. And at current rate of 'melting' it will take THOUSANDS of years to disappear. Not that it hasn't happened in the past either .

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          1. Burb
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            Re: Did anyone mention the Antarctic? sea ice - land ice -> burb -> peter_dtm

            You seem to have gone off at a bit of a tangent there.

            The original question was what is happening to Antarctic ice. You said it was increasing. It isn't, unless you have a very narrow definition of increasing.

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    2. NomNomNom
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      Re: Did anyone mention the Antarctic?

      Currently antarctic sea ice is about 0.1 million sq km above average and arctic sea ice is about 2.4 million sq km below average.

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  9. Niri
    Trollface

    Clearly...

    ...they need to stop observing the ice with satellites. This is what's making it shrink.

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  10. entitled tb untitled

    Where is Lewis Page to reassure us that the Vikings had thriving banana plantations on Greenland and caught tropical fish from the coral reefs at the pole?

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    1. mhenriday
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      Boffin

      Hardly fair to ask Lewis to do all the heavy lifting single-handedly !

      Surely on a matter of such dignity, we need the help of our beloved «executive editor», to set the record straight, once and for all !...

      Henri

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