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back to article Jury awards Apple $1bn damages in Samsung patent case

The nine-member jury in the closely watched patent litigation between Apple and Samsung has returned a verdict decidedly in Apple's favor, awarding the fruity firm a whopping total of $1.05bn in damages. The jury took less than three days to reach its verdict, something that apparently startled even Apple's legal team, as …

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Re: I think that I should....

but the people who reached the verdict probably know no more than the average tech aware commentard on these forums, probably less.

Replying to myself, I stand corrected based on the Reuters story.

"Hogan worked as an engineer for decades before he retired, and holds a patent of his own. He said jurors were able to complete their deliberations in less than three days - much faster than legal experts had predicted - because a few had engineering and legal experience, which helped with the complex issues in play."

(Hogan being the jury foreman)

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Re: I think that I should....

You might as well. What a joke of a country the United States has become. Just imagine Franklin getting sued by some guy who patented straight lines, insisting that electricity can't use wires unless he's paid.

The most hilarious part is that the few patents in the case which actually had some sort of engineering value, Samsung's, were tossed for no apparent rhyme or reason. I guess Apple's marketing team can chalk up a big win for having brainwashed the jury ahead of time.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I think that I should....

It appears that the evidence had nothing to do with the verdict.

Everything was decided based on an email from Google to Samsung.

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Re: I think that I should....

yeah - there were several emails given as evidence that the Samsung team took a long hard look at the iOS devices before designing anything themselves - this was no accident. That was ultimately why they lost.

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@John Brown (no body)

Did you see what patent that "engineer" has? Here - http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7352953.html

A patent for a tivo or any other system that records video from a tuner... No wonder he "instructed" the jury to ignore previous art because "it was bogging us down" and to vote for punitive sanctions against Samsung even if that was clearly stated not to be done in the jury's instructions (which they didn't read, apparently).

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FAIL

Re: @John Brown (no body)

Did you bother to read that Reuters article? It wasn't a case of the Forman giving the others instructions, it was a joint decision based on the evidence provided, testimony and examination of the devices in the jury room. They honestly thought as a griup that the prior art claims were't valid so threw them out.

It doesn't set any precidents for the forman's own patent so there is no benefit to him.

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Linux

Re: @ turtle

In short: "Apple is entitled to abuse the system".

This has nothing to do with Android. Some of us have been ranting about the broken patent system for a long time. This is just the latest episode. Calling us "competing fanboys" won't alter the fact that we're arguing based on principle and you're just a corporate shill.

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Linux

Re: The Fanbois

It is very likely that NEITHER side should have "won".

The American patent office has been running amok for quite some time now. Chances are that out of 100 patents, only one of them is anywhere near reasonable.

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Linux

Re: I think that I should....

Many of these commentards are THOSE PEOPLE that "do a job for a living". They are the relevant experts. This is the site that "bites the hand that feeds IT". You can't swing a dead cat around here without hitting someone that can probably replicate a lot of these nonsense patents with a couple lines of Perl.

It's the "legal experts" that have run off the rails and are ignoring the relevant technical details.

Patent examiners leave it up to the courts. Courts assume that the patent examiners "know what they're doing" and the whole mess blows up in everyones faces.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I think that I should....

Why is looking at something evidence of a patent infrringment?

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WTF?

Re: Can you hear

"It certainly should be! Samsung's designs may be similar to Apple's, but I can't see anything to suggest that they necessarily copied anything from the iPhone."

WOW!

Really?

WOW!

Good luck finding an optician who doesn't mind dealing with complete jackasses who don't do ANY research before opening their mouths.

http://tinyurl.com/9uxzcu6

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Re: @John Brown (no body)

Steve, either you limited your information to apple's PR and that single Reuters article, or your comprehension skills really are low. Take a look at Groklaw's take on the subject; and before accusing PJ of being anti-apple look up what she wrote on Apple vs Psystar - here. You'll see that from what the jurors have been saying, they basically deferred to the foreman, a person who is very interested in defending idiotic patents with lots of prior art, being a holder of one himself.

The jurors also seem to have decided not to bother with previous art, as it was bogging them down, have ignored the judge instructions and awarded punitive damages, and decided on the first day that Samsung was guilty, effectively ignoring all evidence presented afterwards. In a fair legal system, this should be enough to grant a mistrial; lets see what happens in the US.

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@snapper

Really? A thread from crappleinsider, with a bunch of fanbois posting pictures pretending that the iphone was completely different from everything else, which have already been debunked to death everywhere? Qre you really that brainwashed?

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Re: @John Brown (no body)

@jbernardo, oh come on, Groklaw has been about as rabidly pro Samsung in this case as it is possible to get. There is no way you can regard them as a neutral source.

Once again, the Forman gains no advantage by finding for Apple. It doesn't make any challenge to his own patent more or less likely to succeed, and he was only one of nine that had to agree that the patent was both valid and infringed. He suggested an approach for their method of deciding this, but the other members had to agree to that and come to the same decision on the result.

I'll agree that there are signs that the jury was getting sick of the whole proceeding and rushed some of the form filling, but the basic finding seems about right to me. The design patents weren't found as broad as Apple's lawyers wanted, the damages were far less than Apple were hoping for but still sizable, non of Samsung's patents were invalidated and the principles of FRAND were left intact. Not a great day for Samsung but there was plenty of evidence of deliberate copying for them to fight against. If they hadn't skinned Android then most of the software claims wouldn't exist, and Google were warning them about infringement with the Galaxy Pad.

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Holmes

Re: The USA patent system is a disgrace

If Judge made comments that showed and Opinion before the case was presented it sounds like Samsung has a very strong case for appeal and expectation to do much better next time.

Despite comments above, even though the Samsung team acted like amateurs and presented it poorly (or failed to in some cases) the truth is that Apple's patents were all shown pretty clearly to be based on or copying ideas and form factors from other previously existing technology.

Christ square app buttons... not only did the case coverage show that Samsung gave examples, (HP mobile devices for example) but my old Palm, and even Windows App Icons, already had this format for the last 20 years. Look at the Register of comment icons when comment here... looks too much like apple iph*Ck phone to Apple I am sure, but to anyone else with a brain its standard computing.... Hell, books, and other media have used similar pictures for thousands of years as well

Sham of a trail... stupid decision, and yes I dislike Apple even more now than before..... At least previously their despicable behavior was reserved for their willing customers who signed up and paid for the dishonor... now they are like a spoiled kid trying to ruin it for everyone else when they loose. F@#$ apple and the horse they rode in on....this whole case was a joke coming from a company that stole and copied so much to get their riches, and the own fearless leader even made the now famous comment about good companies "stealing" ideas

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Re: The USA patent system is a disgrace

Poppycock I say!! I had a HP ipaq little mobile PC that did much more than iphone years before it came out. My Palm Centro had similar look and feel BEFORE the iphone came out... KyoCera had a great smartphone too. and both had cut and paste when the crippled copy-cat iphone came out it couldn't even do that. Centro played videos, had office apps for word/excel etc and could surf the net.... was only missing GPS and WIFI and other models of Palm had both of those (just too pricy for me at the time).

Apple got to market with a larger screen, and it had NOTHING to do with their innovation..

Shrewd business men maybe... the flat screen companies that actually made the screens had finally got down the process for making a small good screen like that for a reasonable price... and Apple went and bought up all their forseeable future inventory... good (maybe illegal) business move, but not patentable and certainly not creative...

You really need to re-examine what was out there before making such statements... just because YOUR iphone was the first phone you saw with those features doesn't make it true for the world.

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Stop

Re: The USA patent system is a disgrace

Yes, compaq had the iPaq long before the iPhone, but it ran Windows CE like many early smart phones which was basically desktop Windows cut to fit with a single point touch sensor. Apple had the Newton before that. Neither are relevant to this case, which is about multi-touch gestures and animation metaphors which are well beyond that kind of tech.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Can you hear

Yeh. But still Apple are patently shitheads.

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Pint

Re: Just because you disagree with the verdict, doesn't make the verdict wrong!

Oh, so we have an anonymous judge here, what is your jurisdiction, sir ? Have you really read those big thick books on patent law ? I doubt it ... Next !

I love this ...

PS: I love it how any comment anti-Apple gets loads of upvotes, are you bitter, my friends?

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Meh

Unbelievable...

No wait.

Completely believable.

Did any-one really expect the American jury to find in favour of a Korean company?

No, me neither.

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Re: Unbelievable...

Curious contrast to the findings of the S. Korean court, which found the both partly guilty...

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Re: Unbelievable...

>Did any-one really expect the American jury to find in favour of a Korean company?

It wasn't beyond the realms of possibility - and it's important to remember that the jury weren't allowed to see much of Samsung's evidence.

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WTF?

Well what do you know!

We were all wrong!

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Re: Well what do you know!

Your definition of "all" is very odd. Anyone who wasn't a completely blind fandroid could see Samsung was copying Apple in every way they could.

Try hanging around with people who have better things to do with their lives than installing hacked firmwares on their phones.

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Linux

Re: Well what do you know!

My local former iFan now uses (Samsung) Android devices for how they are NOT like Apple products.

The same goes for me.

It's nice to have choices. Not everyone agrees with your fascist vision for technology.

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Trollface

Re: Well what do you know!

"Try hanging around with people who have better things to do with their lives than installing hacked firmwares on their phones."

Sent from the most hipster iClub in town.

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Megaphone

Re: Well what do you know!

Fascist? Oh no I can sense Goodwin's law quickly approaching....

There is nothing fascist about a court of law finding Samsung guilty of copying. Samsung did this to themselves, they even wrote a manual about it.

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I completely disagree

iPhone owner here, and Android Tablet owner, also considering buying an iPad and I really fancy a Nexus 7 as well, so neither a Fandroid or iFan but instead a tech lover and personally I think you need to be completely blind and/or mental to confuse Samsung and Apple products, either on the shelf or when ordering one. It's a sad day not just for Samsung but for technology.

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Devil

Re: "fascist", I was thinking Rick and _Young Ones_ reruns myself.

:D

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I completely disagree

@CmdrX3

The problem with your opinion - and others like you - is precisely that you only consider the "tech lover" perspective of it.

Most people are not tech lovers, they are tech users. They don't know or care much about the differences between Android and iOS or who makes what tablet, beyond the ads they see.

They expect that if one thing looks similar to the other then they probably have equal functionality. By mimicking Apple's products, even down to the dock connector as in the case of tablets, Samsung creates confusion for these buyers. All it takes then is a crafty salesman or confusing display to do the rest.

One of the reports from Best Buy showed many of the returns for Samsung's tablet were from people who had thought they bought an iPad.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Well what do you know!

Nothing in these patent suits involved firmware.

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Re: I completely disagree

Gonna be a sad dayfor apple, too, because whereas i wanted to be open minded and consider buying a 17 inch mac pro in maybe a year, apple ass can kiss that revenue goodbye. Take that, apple, and count it as "your" money "lost".

I suspect the jury was tainted or biased at the very least.

There WILL be blowback...

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@Martin Huizing

"We were all wrong!"

Yeah well Google wasn't wrong when they warned Samsung that their products looked too much like Apples, now were they?

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Re: dx

Sorry, I forgot to enable sarcasm mode. Thought I was being obvious...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I completely disagree

>Gonna be a sad dayfor apple, too, because whereas i wanted to be open minded and consider buying a 17 inch >mac pro in maybe a year, apple ass can kiss that revenue goodbye.

You're now not going to buy a machine they've never made?

Unless you mean you are now not going to buy a 17" MacBook Pro. Which they also don't make any more.

Is there also a Samsung machine you wouldn't buy if they'd won? Or can we take it that you're not as open minded as you claim to be?

BTW, if you think Apple cares enough to withdraw it's claims and the $1Bn in exchange for your custom and purchase of a whole machine (and who knows even a second one in a few years!), then I have some bad news for you.

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Re: I completely disagree

"One of the reports from Best Buy showed many of the returns for Samsung's tablet were from people who had thought they bought an iPad."

We cannot build our legal system or society based around the most stupid members of it. At some point, blame for something has to lie with a person's stupidity rather than with a company for not being able to do their thinking for them.

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Devil

Re: I completely disagree

@Nine Circles

I understood the interpretation of the Best Buy reports was that people bought a Samsung Tablet thinking it was "just like an Ipad", a bit like the "Just like a Golf" adverts that ran some time back in the UK. In which case should I take my Renault back to the dealer and demand a refund because it's not a Golf?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Well what do you know!

I think the "firmware" comment was intended to indicate something about "smeely yooves in der mum's basements tinkering". rather than any applicability to the case per se.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I completely disagree

"One of the reports from Best Buy showed many of the returns for Samsung's tablet were from people who had thought they bought an iPad"

Obviously a pretty stupid thing to have done, so then they rectify their mistake making Apple officially the preferred choice of idiots.

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Re: dssf

Does not matter who you buy from. Apple and MS get paid either way now. ;) :(

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Re: I completely disagree

Re returning Samsung tablets, are the buyers really so thick to think that even if it says SAMSUNG on the box (and no apple logo) there'll be an APPLE device inside?

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Stop

Re: I completely disagree

Buyers are used to seeing the same device with different brands on it (everything from cars to kitchen appliences). They reason that if it looks the same it must BE the same, never mind the logo.

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Re: I completely disagree

@CmdrX3:

This lawsuit began over two years ago and was in regard to Samsung's products at that time. Android was still essentially a blatant iOS clone at the time, which didn't help. Its GUI only really started down its own (visually less derivative) path with the v3.x and v4.x releases, but most Android users are still on that 2.x series even today, so Apple's point still stands.

For those who insist that software != hardware, bear in mind that Apple's design philosophy does NOT separate the two: the software GUI is considered an integral part of the entire product design. Apple are a hardware company, not a software company. Their software is just another component, like a GPU or a display panel. THAT is where Samsung's lawyers kept going wrong: assuming that laypeople could tell where the hardware ends and the software begins. That's a nerd distinction. I've had to deal with customers who genuinely believed their PC was running an operating system called "Windows Office".

As far as most non-IT people are concerned, the device's design includes both its hardware and its software. If your device is a rectangular slab of glass with a button on edge, and rows of square-ish icons on its screen, they're really going to struggle to spot the difference.

Just ask Samsung's own lawyers, if you don't believe me.

Stop artificially separating hardware and software components in a device. It really helps when trying to argue design issues. Samsung copied Apple. They've admitted it repeatedly: there's even a bloody document that says it was policy at the time to copy every feature from Apple's devices.

And Steve Jobs never, ever, made any secret of the fact that Apple had patented their research and development to the hilt. He even said as much in the presentation for the original iPad's launch.

Note, too, that Apple are NOT suing Motorola over their keyboard-dock-and-tablet Transformer devices. Nor are they going after a number of other, financially easier, targets. Because most of Samsung's fellow Android licensees are NOT just slavishly copying the iPad and iPhone. They're actually creating some original products.

*

On a completely separate note: Apple haven't been responsible for Java on OS X since the release of OS X "Lion" (v10.7, which was released in summer last year.) Neither OS X 10.7, nor the just-released 10.8 ("Mountain Lion") include a Java VM any more. The responsibility for patching and maintaining Java is Oracle's.

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Re: I completely disagree

In some aspect I would tend to agree with you, but my point is I don't agree that Samsung ARE mimicking Apple's products, I don't think they look anything like each other. I have the Asus Transformer and the dock on it looks "quite similar" to my iPhone dock, does that mean Asus slavishly copied the dock connector. Crafty salesmen, confusing displays... c'mon. If a salesman is a bit dishonest he will be that regardless, and any store I've been in that stocks Apple products have them all in their own Apple section. If someone is planning to spend £500 on a product, the very least they should do is ensure they know what product they are picking up. According to Samsung's survey of Best Buy returns, only 9% were attributed to market confusion but most were for malfunctions. I have a feeling though that market confusion was spread over all the tablets with people buying those instead of iPads as well and not just the Tab.

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FAIL

Re: "creates confusion for these buyers"

It would take a particularly stupid buyer to not see the difference between the words "Apple" and "Samsung".

Every flat panel TV on the market looks the same too, and yet somehow consumers manage to spot the difference between Panasonic and LG, etc., so unless you're claiming smartphone and tablet buyers are more stupid than TV buyers, I'm not sure you really have much of a case.

Meanwhile, in the UK, Judge Colin Birss not only ruled that Samsung didn't copy Apple, but even went so far as to rule that Apple must advertise that fact, by "[placing] a notice on its own UK website for six months and advertise in UK online and print media explaining that Samsung did not infringe on its patents".

Clearly there's a huge disparity between the US and the UK over what's considered an "invention", such as simple and pre-existant geometric shapes, for example.

Maybe it's time for the rest of the world to just stop operating in competition-hostile countries like the US, and let the patent extortionists litigate themselves into oblivion.

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Re: I completely disagree

@Sean Timarco Baggaley

I think Motorola would be be pretty pissed off if Apple sued them for their Dock and Keyboard Transformer device....... They didn't make it, Asus did.

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FAIL

Re: Well what do you know!

"Anyone who wasn't a completely blind fandroid could see Samsung was copying Apple in every way they could."

Just like Apple have copied their competitors and just like every large company from Olympus to Ford to Tampax have bought, disassembled and learnt from the products of their competitors for centuries.

The question, the important question, here is why is it suddenly bad when someone does it to Apple?

The answer is that it isn't. What's bad is the abuse of patents to protect "inventions" that companies did not in fact invent.

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Re: I completely disagree

By that logic, ios is a clone of earlier platforms like Symbian, or my 2005 feature phone, which let you launch the apps from a grid of icons. Hell, I'm not sure which phones out there didn't use such a system. Maybe ancient dumb phones

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Re: I completely disagree

Indeed, and i suspect there are people who buy Macs, then take them back when they can't run Windows apps. This effect will always happen with naturally similar products, but where one platform is more commonly used, it doesn't mean the others are copying. It just means some ppl are stupid

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Re: "creates confusion for these buyers"

I bet apple think those flat screen tvs copied apple too - rounded rectangles!

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