Retina MacBook Pro nukes Apple's green credentials
The tightly packed new Apple MacBook Pro prevents the laptop from meeting requirements laid down by eco-friendly technology catalogue EPEAT. The Electronic Product Environmental Assessment Tool (EPEAT) announced on Monday that the shiny Retina-display lap warmer is "difficult to disassemble for upgrades, repairs, and recycling …
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Re: Where on earth are you getting your numbers from?
"Your survey of one doesn't prove anything"
Well, with your data added to his I conclude that RAM has a failure rate of 50% which is bloody atrocious.
@Field Marshal von Krackenfart - do try not to look like a bigger idiot than you are
Firstly the EU directive only covers faults that were present durring manufacture. If you thrash the SSD and battery mercilessly for 20 months then Apple or any other PC manufacturer don't have to do squat under the EU directive. In fact, under the EU rules you need to prove that it was a manufacturing fault yourself after 6 months. The Apple warranty covers all of that.
Secondly in anyone's book 3 years is longer than 2.
Thirdly your warranty is with whoever you bought the device from (not necessarily Apple), and they are free to nominate whatever repair facility they want. They can also declare it beyond economic repair, and refund the cost LESS an amount to cover the use you've had out of the device. Guess who gets to decide how much that sum is? The retailer.
Re: @naughtyhorse - it seems that you know rather less about electronics
hmmm basically this...
relatively that...
unlimited read but limited write... (kinda sounds like limited by something to me)
different size of bathtub curve thassall
i call bollocks.
it's STILL a bit of electronics, and STILL subject to the laws of physics - a point you clearly fail to understand
if you read the article youll also notice that there is some mention of non socketed ssd's - i know not of the veracity of this... but you have to start somewheres.
curiously on the subject of relays - particulary protection relays in susbstations,
'old fashioned' mech relays mttf 50 years
1st gen PLC relays mttf 25 years
2nd gen PLC relays mttf 15 years
some one alert the physics police :-D
Re: @naughtyhorse - it seems that you know rather less about electronics
Again, who said they would last forever? Mechanical parts will last longer IF THEY ARE LARGE AND YOU DON'T USE THEM, but for high duty cycles or miniature parts they will not last as long as solid state by a rather large margin.
Your mech relays required periodic servicing and replacing of contacts. How well would that work on the scale of a DRAM chip?
ALL electronics have a known rate of failure. Mid-life it's so low in solid state devices that you can ignore it, or insure against repair costs for a small sum. The design life of DRAM is beyond the usefull life of a PC so it's unlikely that your insurer would have to pay out.
Now if you want to try building an electromechanical RAM chip to prove me wrong then please feel free, but you'd better have a large warehouse to keep it it and a large support staff to maintain it. Just ask the telco's why they moved to computer based switching, and look at the small boxes that sit in the corner of an otherwise empty old exchange.
>Foxconn-marketer's gear
I thought Ms Leach had got tired of that 'joke'. I wander if she actually knows that Apple also develop software, hardware and standards?
Besides, what does this article tell us that yesterday's Reg article doesn't?
Which part of the hardware is developed by Apple - CPU/GPU/Memory/screen or the SSD?
@Obviously!
I note that you accused the first poster as being "really gay for Apple" when all he did was demonstrate his ignorance of Product Lifecycle Management.
But please do expand on you think is a 'matter of fact'. That Apple are the only tech company who contract their manufacture and advertise the result? And please tell us what you think Apple's 4,700 US staff actually do.
Definition of 'Hardware'
>Which part of the hardware is developed by Apple - CPU/GPU/Memory/screen or the SSD?
Those are often Samsung's department- and those items are not all that comprise 'hardware'. Apple's job -in this case- is to procure and package them in a small form factor, which involves designing the battery, speakers, case, HIDs, interconnects and motherboard, whilst integrating them into their own OS. And yes, marketing the result, just as everybody else does.
They work with suppliers and on development, and also instigate mass-production of things that no-one else is yet using (FireWire, High-Res displays, Postscript Laser Printers, Thunderbolt nee LightPeak...)
Apple aren't perfect (and I use a PC and an Android phone) but out of fairness they should only be knocked for things they do. Accusing them of just whacking their sticker on generic Asian goods is just false and weakens any legitimate criticisms.
Just because It's not the ONLY thing they do, doesn't make it something they don't do.
For instance, some men like to touch themselves, some have jobs, some do both.
But calling a Bank Manager a wanker doesn't mean all he does is touch himself.
So calling them a Foxconn rebrander or marketeer doesn't mean all they do is rebrand foxconn kit.
but it does suggest that they're the only ones who do it (Apple/Foxconn, that is, not bankers) which is completely inaccurate and so not 'a matter of fact' at all
apple standards
lulz
only relation apple has to standards is that they never ever under any circumstances observe a single one of them.
i have never known a piece of apple kit that didnt have a weird connector or inaccessible/non standard fastener, different kind of plug to every other bit of kit on the planet.
hence this story really - once again apple are trying to make their kit un-repairable/un-maintainable/un-resellable
and why not? theres no profit for cupertino in any of those activities.... it's just the market.
's just evil thats all
what you think Apple's 4,700 US staff actually do.
hang about poncy coffee shops in poncy tee-shirts, bein all poncy i guess
How about if El Reg starts calling them "a Foxconn-rebrander" instead of "the Foxconn-rebrander" then? It would remove any implication that they're the only one doing it.
Nope, it still wouldn't work- because the products were never branded as Foxconn.
i.e: You can only revisit a place that you have been before, you can only reheat a meal that has been heated before, and you can only rebrand something that has been branded before. I'd expect a journalist, one who puts words together for a living, to know this.
The other Reg names, such as Chipzilla and the Chocolate Factory, work well because they can't be confused for statements of 'fact', don't misuse the English language, and they bring a humorous image to mind. 'Foxconn-rebrander' fails on those counts.
@Obviously! and Maxson
Indeed, they don't just rebrand Foxconn kit* since, in this case, we're talking about a laptop - which means it was probably made by Quantacom, in Taiwan, rather than Foxconn.
So, sometimes they rebrand Quantacom kit.
*Nor are they the only ones, since Amazon Kindles are also 'Foxconn kit', and Xbox 360s and Nintendo Wiis are 'Foxconn kit' - in the sense of actually having been made at Zhengzhou Technology Park, in Henan. Strictly speaking, large portions of my Samsung Galaxy S2 are 'Foxconn kit', but since it was assembled at a different plant, in a different country, that particular droid probably isn't the Foxconn you're looking for.
And if you're reading this on a high-end laptop there's about a one in three chance it's actually Quantacom kit.
Re: apple standards
>only relation apple has to standards is that they never ever under any circumstances observe a single one of them.
Oh really? You didn't take a minute to check before posting?
"FireWire is Apple's name for the IEEE 1394 High Speed Serial Bus. It was initiated by Apple (in 1986[4]) and developed by the IEEE P1394 Working Group, largely driven by contributions from Apple, although major contributions were also made by engineers from Texas Instruments, Sony, Digital Equipment Corporation, IBM, and INMOS/SGS Thomson (now STMicroelectronics)."
Which is why I said that they work with suppliers and other partners. Intel adopted Apple's name 'Thunderbolt' instead of 'LightPeak' after Intel realised that they could get the required bandwidth with copper wire instead of optical fibre. High-end Sony use it, but under a different name because it is disguised as a USB rather than Display Port socket.
tell us what you think Apple's 4,700 US staff actually do
My best guess at a breakdown would be as follows:
R&D: 50
Slick Design: 20
Bean Counters: 230
Tech Support: 10
Department of Truth: 4,390
Re: tell us what you think Apple's 4,700 US staff actually do
Hey, Flying Dutchman... I think you made an error there:
Department of Truth: 390
Patent Lawyers: 4,000
You're welcome
Compaq mark 2
Remember Compaq's systems which were similarly blessed with non serviceable parts
There were no fashion suckers in the good old days of computing so their non serviceable gear quickly ceased to sell.
problem?
EPEAT tests are not realistic. Let's face it - these laptops will be eventually disassembled by the slave children from the 3rd world, whose deft and experienced fingers won't have any problems removing the said battery.
Re: Jobs
Pentalobe screws are not proprietary, they're just uncommon. Torx screws were once in that same category but are now as common as dirt. If you need you can source all sizes of drivers for them online and at some tool shops for a few pence.
Doing it wrong?
It must be straightforward to disassemble without brute force, or else Apple service centres would have no way of doing "official" battery swaps.
...but I guess if Apple won't tell anyone how to do it then the criticism stands.
Re: Doing it wrong?
Duh, they have geniuses remember! That's how they do it!
Paris 'cus she's a genius too you know!
Re: Doing it wrong?
The rumour from a supposed Apple tech is that the battery replacement includes swapping out the whole bottom which the batteries are glued to.
Nobody has said anything yet about what happens after this point.
Re: Doing it wrong?
Probably solvents or high temperatures... glue technology is fairly advanced (those unsung chemical engineers who make our lives easier) so I find it hard to believe there isn't a particular glue out there that would be straight forward to remove as well as being fit for purpose and easy to apply in the first place.
Given Apple will take old Macs off you (and that EU legislation makes manufacturers responsible for product disposal) it would seem strange if they deliberately made their job harder.
Re: Doing it wrong?
I expect that the battery and the part of the case it's glued to are considered one part.
Re: Doing it wrong?
It's confirmed that they have to replace the entire upper part of the Macbook Pro - including the trackpad, and keyboard and so on, because the battery is bonded to it.
Will anyone actually care?
From my experience of environmental types (especially environmental types who own Apple products), this won't make much of a difference. Environmentalism is a massive bandwagon and very few people in on it are really that interested in it if it inconveniences them.
Actually, I do care
because batteries loose 50% of their capacity after 2-3 years, you'll want to replace it. And you don't want to leave it for 2 weeks in a repair service, but you want to have it done in 10 minutes.
Re: Actually, I do care
That's just a complete fabrication. A decent quality lithium battery may typically lose about 20% of it's capacity after about 1000 'full' cycles. So even if you charged / discharged it fully every day you would probably still have about 70-80% capacity after 3 years. if you are not doing full cycles the loss would be less.
Re: Actually, I do care
> That's just a complete fabrication.
Depends largely on usage patterns and there is variability in battery life from one to the next.
It's one of the reasons that I ignore all the "well by 2006 battery still gives me great service" comments. Some batteries last really well, others don't and it's not always obvious why.
Surely
the answer is leave the battery glued to the back of the case,
and throw the case + battery away
but new battery + back of case (which is presumably moulded - and should not be to expensive 'cough')
in fact 'if' in the future they built the battery into the case (saving space/bits etc)
then it would all be chucked when it was broken, would that be green or not.
so the only difference here is a little glue..... (get some solvent..)
iProduct iLife iCycle iManagement
Breaking news: Apple unveils new product life cycle management strategy. Stung by criticism of non-standard hard drives, soldered in DRAM and un-replaceable batteries, Apple will, in future, in-source the whole recycling process for its products. Starting Q3, all Apple products will no longer be 'sold' but leased to customers. For similar or equivalent prices to today, customers will be able to enjoy their Apple iProduct for a generous two years before being required to return it to Apple, where it will be recycled in an environmentally sensitive manner. Asked whether customers might decide not to return their devices, an Apple spokesperson didn't say: "We expect customers to fall in love with their iProduct and understand that they may be reluctant to return the product at the end of the lease period. Apple staff will gently remind customers of how much money they spent and how good they felt when they first leased an iTem, and that they have the opportunity to feel that good all over again."
Apple already made a statement about this
http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/07/10/apple-responds-to-epeat-concerns/
Come on Anna Leach/El Reg at least read the news before posting...
Apple *did* respond
http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/07/10/apple-responds-to-epeat-concerns/
Appears that Apple thinks their products are well within "green" specifications, but also in fields that are not measured by EPEAT. Also, EPEAT does not certify a large chunk of Apple's stuff, such as iPods, iPhones and iPads.
In the same article, EPEAT admits that their standards are a little old and they are in the process of updating their certifications.
Still this is a curious move by Apple, as a lack of EPEAT certification means the US government won't shop there any more, as 95% of their purchases needs to be EPEAT certified.
Re: Apple *did* respond
Also, EPEAT does not certify a large chunk of Apple's stuff, such as iPods, iPhones and iPads...
Kind of lucky for Apple since they are glued together too.
Re: Apple *did* respond
I would rather my battery replaced by the manufacturer to their specification and they have the hassle of responsibly disposing of the old lithium battery. Think EPEAT need to update their specs as things like that seem more important than a user replaceable battery. Being green is about the thing being recyclable (which Apple commit to do) and being efficient / low power - surely?
Re: Apple *did* respond
There's a lot more to environmental impact than the in-use energy efficiency of a product, and declaring carbon cost of manufacture, so that's a feeble ploy on their part.
Re: Apple *did* respond
Bit of a strange and uninformative response though, isn't it?
They still haven't actually explained why they withdrew from it.
The gist of the response is "Yes we have withdrawn from EPEAT. All our products are really green and EPEAT are rubbish".
Doesn't actually explain what Apple get from withdrawal from the certification since they rule out a large swathe of their market by doing so, other than the obvious point that they probably wouldn't get certification for their new Retina macbooks.
It actually makes sense to let the manufacturer replace it - all too often I have seen family members buy poor quality (even unsafe) 3rd party batteries off eBay. For something you sit on your lap I would want to try and ensure it is at least 'safer'.
>It actually makes sense to let the manufacturer replace it
Well I got a replacement battery for my daughters laptop and it has far better capacity and life than the original that came with.
You pay your money, you take your chance....
Isn't it MORE eco-friendly to have Apple replace the batteries? That guarantees they'll be recycled, while someone doing it at home would probably chuck out the old lithium monster with the household rubbish, maybe creating a fire hazard if the contacts short out or the battery is punctured.
As long as the replacement cost is reasonable, as it appears to be, I don't see the problem with it.
> if the contacts short out
If there's that much power left in it, then perhaps you didn't need to bin it in the first place.
Can you define a reasonable cost?
Do they charge for their time too?
Do they supply the parts to do it yourself?
Also I use my laptop for work, I cant leave it with them or send it off to a service centre how do we work around that?
I also spend quite a bit of time away from mains power and normally carry a spare charged battery to swap out on the move... guess Ill need a second laptop now?
As long as the cost is reasonable (i.e. in line with what another manufacturer would charge for their genuine batteries) can see no problem really - especially if it means they can use a larger battery in the first place or make the laptop smaller or lighter as a result.
At least Apple commit to recycling and maintaining this stuff - I have bought other makes of laptops to find you cannot get genuine batteries after a few years and I'd rather not use a 3rd party pack that who knows whether they have used the same quality of cells, got protection circuits etc.
I've seen what can happen to lithium cells so reducing the risk seems a plus.
The last battery replacement ...
I performed was on a 5 year old Macbook with serviceable battery exchange...I ordered one from Amazon, it arrived the next day...And guess where the old one ended up bad boy I am...Yes in my bin...
A non-user serviceable item can be guaranteed to be recycled by the service provider, I would have thought that is much more eco friendly.
All this talk about the costs is just noise, if you don't like it vote with your feet and don't buy it...
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