back to article Judge: Patent litigants behave like animals

The outspoken judge who threw out Apple's patent suit against Motorola Mobility has called into question the entire US patent system, comparing patent litigants to violent beasts. Judge Richard Posner at Harvard University in 2009 Posner: "All their teeth and claws" "It's a constant struggle for survival," Judge Richard …

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        1. Daf L

          Re: Some exceptions

          That would seem to suggest that you wish to extend patent coverage to be a whole program as you have spent a long time writing it and the overall idea is a good one? That's madness.

          I've done plenty of big programming projects lasting years and replacing multi-million pound off the shelf systems. I've spent months trying to figure out how to accomplish something and the algorithms involved. The end result was pretty impressive, imho...

          However, should I get a patent on it? No of course not or any part of it. There was months of problem solving but it is not patentable. Should people be able to open up my source code and copy it? No - but copyright covers that.

          Should the look and feel be copied exactly - nope, copyright again.

          However, the process - the result. Well go ahead - create the same. By the time they have the next iteration will be released with even better features -the basic idea was based on the propriety software (which didn't fit our needs).

          For patents, even if they 'must' exist in software, you should be thinking wow, the guy who invented that is a genius. That's been a problem that people have had for a long time and this guy has managed to crack it.

          Patents should not be awarded just because you are the first to do something. Everyone will be the first to do something; So you've encountered a problem first and solved it (maybe extremely easily, maybe took some time) - does that mean you should be eligible to patent it? Someone else comes up with the same problem a year later, they have never heard of your patent, they solve their problem a similar way - bang patent lawsuit.

  1. FuzzyTheBear
    Pint

    Light in the dark.

    I truly beleive that patents are the enemy of the consumer . what's a patent good for except stiffle competition ? Software , hardware i mean ..a computer is a computer , a tablet is a tablet. We expect those devices to have a certain set of features and need them . they are not options for the consumer. If one arrives with a new function , he gets ahead of the class and market rewards them with good sales.

    We dont need patents. We need a fair first to market environment where all have an equal chance. Sure bunches of companies worked on getting some features and new functions working. Part of the game .. but a switch to power on or off a computer aint an invention.Why should even a gesture be patented or subject of one is totally idiotic.

    Gentlemen , Ladies , we live in a century where idiots are everywhere and are mostly running the show.

    Time to put more and more pressure on the Governments of the People BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE and make the voice of reason heard : Get rid of patents in computing from a to z.

    We each and everyone of us need to send a letter ( I already did it a number of times ) to our

    representatives and start cranking the pressure . Time to get rid of patents in computing .

    Hardware and software.

    Meanwhile .. let's forget this and go back to our old habits ..

    Time for a pint and since we didnt do a thing about it , enjoy more patent fights at our expenses .

    These lawsuits only affect our wallets after all.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "If one arrives with a new function, he gets ahead of the class and market rewards them"

      OK, the problem with that logic is, without protection, someone else will quickly copy that new function and sell it cheaper, and the market won't reward the original anymore. These days we can go from design to market in 4 months, so that's about how long market advantage lasts.

      This makes it less desirable to come out with new features at all, we just get more of the same and a race to the bottom on pricing. It's what the industry has done time and time again: GB war, Mhz war, Megapixel war, always more of the same and nothing really new until profits drop off a cliff, companies get bought and sold and the cycle restarts. Is this really too hard to understand?

    2. Jonathan Richards 1
      Stop

      Re: Light in the dark.

      @FuzzyTheBear, who wrote

      'what's a patent good for except stiffle competition?'

      It's meant to promote progress. You invent something novel and innovative, which improves the state of some technological art. You can keep your inventive steps secret, and sell the product if that's what you want to do. The State, however, will give you another option. In order that the inventive step does not have to be replicated by other researchers (I'm trying hard not to mention re-inventing the wheel, but I just failed), you may get a time-limited monopoly on the invention in exchange for full disclosure. The patent gets published, and as a competitor to you, I can study your invention and see if I can improve on it. See, improvement and greater competition. What got stiffled?

    3. Morrie Wyatt

      Re: Light in the dark.

      Fuzzy, you are not quite right. Patents were designed with a specific purpose. The idea was that an inventor was given a limited time monopoly on an invention in exchange for making the design and methods available to the public. It was intended to provide an alternative to "trade secrets" and encourage dissemination of knowledge.

      Examples of trade secrets still in use are KFC's 11 herbs and spices, Coca Cola's formulation etc.

      They don't dare patent their secret because it would entail full disclosure.

      I'm not for one second defending software patents, though I can reluctantly accept that pharmaceutical patents due to the R&D required to develop the product though testing, clinical trials, FDA approval, with the implicit risk that the development investment may never make it to market due to dead ends at any point along the process.

      Software and design patents (like Apple's rounded corners on icons) are not being used to disseminate information, but instead as a corporate version of "Keepings off" that kids used to play in the schoolyard before political correctness tried to outlaw it. They are using them as landmines for any who tread close enough to their turf, and bury the actual working knowledge beneath vague patent speak with a strong peppering of pluralities and jargon to allow the patent holder to blur the meaning to cover as many surrounding ideas as possible.

      Instead of a pixel sized dot, they are more like a bottle of ink on blotting paper. They are now used as weapons of corporate warfare.

      I would love to see corporate bodies who try to pull this sort of stunt with dubious patent claims and unwarranted lawsuits hit with huge fines as a disincentive against bring their corporate squabbles into the courts. The current tendency to "sue and see what sticks" mentality needs to be stomped on hard.

      Judge Posner receives my heartfelt appreciation for his stance.

  2. robin48gx
    Linux

    With or without prejudice.....

    I like this judge.

    But did the author of the article really mean "without prejudice" ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Without_prejudice

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: With or without prejudice.....

      This is explained in TFA.

    2. Charles 9

      Re: With or without prejudice.....

      Not in this case.

      "Prejudice" in this case means that both litigants are considered to have been placed "in jeopardy" in the trial. This is extremely important because it goes to the 5th Amendments, which basically prohibits a litigant from being threatened by the same case twice (the "Double Jeopardy" prohibition). Now, it may be possible for a higher court to declare that the declaration of jeopardy was unwarranted, but given that he's a judge for a court of appeals, there are only two levels of appeal left: the full panel and the SCOTUS.

  3. frank ly
    Happy

    "... he uses a BlackBerry only because the court makes him."

    I'm smiling because I imagine him using it as a gavel.

    1. Mr Temporary Handle
      Happy

      Re: "... he uses a BlackBerry only because the court makes him."

      "I'm smiling because I imagine him using it as a gavel."

      That's certainly a better use for it than most of it's alleged 'features' :D

  4. Joseph Lord

    He is right the law is ridiculous

    But he is a judge and his role is to enforce the law. If Apple have a valid (under current law) patent the should have the monopoly on that for the duration of the patent without needing to prove damages.

    Google should be given time to implement a work around that doesn't infringe but should be expected to do so.

    Actually an immediate injunction may be the quickest way to get the law changed as until there are large visible impacts from patents the law won't change.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: He is right the law is ridiculous

      But he is a judge and his role is to enforce the law.

      No, under the UK and US systems (and those deriving from them) the judiciary is supposed to have a degree of independence, and can interpret a law differently based on the merits of a specific case rather than enforcing one rigid interpretation of it. This differs from systems based on the French model, where the judiciary are not intended to have a degree of independence in interpreting the laws laid down by parliament.

      1. Anonymous Dutch Coward

        Re: He is right the law is ridiculous

        @Chris: however big his degree of independence, he still has to enforce the law, I'd say...

        1. Charles 9

          Re: He is right the law is ridiculous

          No, under the US Separation of Powers, that's the Executive Branch's job. Meaning it falls to the President and his Cabinet.

          The Legislature MAKES the law. The Executive ENFORCES the law, and the Judiciary INTERPRETS the law.

  5. Local Group
    WTF?

    So after x number of years, a drug will come out of patent...

    The pharmaceutical company that had the patent continues to manufacture them for the 1%.. But now generic drug companies can make low cost versions of the drug.

    BUT WAIT!

    The original manufacturer/patent holder CAN PAY generic makers not produce a generic version of the drug for so many years.

    The business of America is business.

    1. Charles 9

      Re: So after x number of years, a drug will come out of patent...

      That may well be, but the bribe would have to be significant for something very popular. Otherwise, the drug maker would consider the potential profits from making the generic the better option and turn it down. Not to mention there are multiple drug manufacturers, all who wish to get in on the action. If even one of them went ahead and produced a generic, the whole bribery model would be at risk.

      1. Local Group
        Thumb Down

        Re: So after x number of years, a drug will come out of patent...

        Ending drug companies’ pay-for-delay deals from the Washington Post

        AN UPCOMING REPORT by the Federal Trade Commission shows that brand-name pharmaceutical makers continue to cut questionable deals with generic manufacturers that delay the introduction of cheaper drugs onto the market.

        Such pay-for-delay arrangements hurt consumers and increase costs for federal programs such as Medicare and Medicaid, according to the report, a copy of which was obtained by the editorial board. These deals are not illegal, but they should be.

        Pharmaceutical companies rightly enjoy strong protections for products that often take years and billions of dollars to develop. These protections were so strong at one point that they discouraged would-be competitors from jumping in. The Hatch-Waxman Act of 1984 meant to address this problem by allowing generics to market “bio-equivalent” drugs as long as they did not infringe on the brand-name drug’s patent; the generic could also proceed if it proved the brand-name patent was invalid. The goal was to enhance competition and lower drug prices. That goal is thwarted when brand-name manufacturers engage in the popular practice of paying generic-drug makers to keep their products off the market.

        In 2004, the FTC did not identify a single settlement in a patent litigation matter involving drug makers that raised pay-for-delay concerns. In its new report, the agency points to 28 cases that bear the telltale signs of pay-for-delay, including “compensation to the generic manufacturer and a restriction on the generic manufacturer’s ability to market its product.”

        Sens. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) and Herb Kohl (D-Wis.) have introduced the Preserve Access to Affordable Generics Act to close the pay-for-delay loophole. The bill would make such schemes presumptively illegal and empower the FTC to challenge suspicious arrangements in federal court. The most recent version gives companies a chance to preserve certain deals if “clear and convincing evidence” proves that their “pro-competitive benefits outweigh the anti-competitive harms.” The Obama administration estimates that eliminating pay-for-delay could save the government $8.8 billion over 10 years; the Congressional Budget Office offers a dramatically more conservative savings estimate of roughly $3 billion over the same period.

        The legislation should appeal to the deficit-reduction “supercommittee,” which has been tasked with identifying ways to cut the federal deficit.

        In 2004, the FTC did not identify a single settlement in a patent litigation matter involving drug makers that raised pay-for-delay concerns. In its new report, the agency points to 28 cases that bear the telltale signs of pay-for-delay, including “compensation to the generic manufacturer and a restriction on the generic manufacturer’s ability to market its product.”

        Sens. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) and Herb Kohl (D-Wis.) have introduced the Preserve Access to Affordable Generics Act to close the pay-for-delay loophole. The bill would make such schemes presumptively illegal and empower the FTC to challenge suspicious arrangements in federal court. The most recent version gives companies a chance to preserve certain deals if “clear and convincing evidence” proves that their “pro-competitive benefits outweigh the anti-competitive harms.” The Obama administration estimates that eliminating pay-for-delay could save the government $8.8 billion over 10 years; the Congressional Budget Office offers a dramatically more conservative savings estimate of roughly $3 billion over the same period.

        The legislation should appeal to the deficit-reduction “supercommittee,” which has been tasked with identifying ways to cut the federal deficit.In 2004, the FTC did not identify a single settlement in a patent litigation matter involving drug makers that raised pay-for-delay concerns. In its new report, the agency points to 28 cases that bear the telltale signs of pay-for-delay, including “compensation to the generic manufacturer and a restriction on the generic manufacturer’s ability to market its product.”

        Sens. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) and Herb Kohl (D-Wis.) have introduced the Preserve Access to Affordable Generics Act to close the pay-for-delay loophole. The bill would make such schemes presumptively illegal and empower the FTC to challenge suspicious arrangements in federal court. The most recent version gives companies a chance to preserve certain deals if “clear and convincing evidence” proves that their “pro-competitive benefits outweigh the anti-competitive harms.” The Obama administration estimates that eliminating pay-for-delay could save the government $8.8 billion over 10 years; the Congressional Budget Office offers a dramatically more conservative savings estimate of roughly $3 billion over the same period.

        http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ending-drug-companies-pay-for-delay-deals/2011/10/24/gIQAxyfjDM_story.html

  6. DanceMan

    Way back in the mid '60's, pharma had the highest profit margins in industry. Had a relative who worked as a pharma sales rep 15 or 20 year ago, so I had a glimpse into the games and pressure laid on the reps and the doctors. I'm not crying any tears for the drug industry. Doctors and nurses, another story.

    Kudos to that judge. We need more like him.

  7. SJRulez

    I think patents should be maintained in some form but it should be down to the actual development cost since that's what they were intended for.

    Too many companies now seem to think they can patent even the slightest development (especially in software) as was the case with Apple and slide to unlock\gesture to unlock, its not a ground breaking innovation its been around since the first sliding bolt, its more a case of patent it anyway then we can use it as ammunition against someone else later.

    Most of these recent patent battles are causing harm to the industry and giving creativity a back seat...... its no longer buy our product cause its the best, its buy our products because we've managed to ban the rest.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Patent the slightest development

      Or in the case of some, patent things that have been in widespread use for decades.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Does anyone...

    ...know of an example of a software patent that isn't either indefensibly stupid or an attempt to patent part of mathematics?

  9. Trollslayer
    Flame

    Patently trivial

    As it were.

    Seeking to patent the most trivial things which should have been rejected but are accepted (I suspect) because the applicant is liked by certaian people or makes them money.

    Cynical? Maybe.

  10. Mark 62
    Gimp

    Posner Rocks

    I always looked forward to reading about his decisions on the Bob Loblaw Law Blog.

    He is no nonsense and would have made an excellent Supreme Court justice but at this point is probably too old.

  11. JaitcH
    WTF?

    Who is this heretic ...

    if he is allowed to voice this opinion hundreds of lawyers will be unemployed, unable to do anything except draw strange numbered drawings and write unintelligible prose.

    No patents in electronics ... Jobs will arise and smite him down.

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