If you want a job done right, do it yourself: that’s the consensus on the Windows 8 Surface tablets. Or, put another way: “OEMs, please pay attention. This is how you build a PC.” It’s easy to draw this conclusion given the world’s largest maker of software has bothered spending money – something it has been cutting back on in …

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1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 14:58 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: Who is going to sell it?
  
  Should I decide to get one, it'll be the x86 version and I will get it from John Lewis. If for some reason John Lewis don't supply them, I'll go to PC world to try it one out and make a decision to buy it from either them or Scan.
  
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  1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 21:15 GMT Richard Plinston
    
    Re: Who is going to sell it?
    
    > I will get it from John Lewis
    
    No you won't.
    
    > I'll go to PC world to try it one out
    
    > buy it from either them or Scan.
    
    No you won't.
    
    They will be available in Microsoft shops or online from Microsoft. There will be no margin for anyone else to take a cut.
    
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    1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 21:28 GMT Anonymous Coward
      
      Re: Who is going to sell it?
      
      You have no idea if this will be true so why say it?
      
      1 3
      1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 23:46 GMT Richard Plinston
        
        Re: Who is going to sell it?
        
        > You have no idea if this will be true so why say it?
        
        https://allthingsd.com/20120618/coming-up-live-microsofts-tablet-event-from-las-milk-studios/
        
        """Microsoft says Surface will be sold in __its__ retail stores and via __Microsoft’s__ online stores."""
        
        (emphasis mine)
        
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        Wednesday 20th June 2012 06:36 GMT Ian Yates
        
        Re: Who is going to sell it?
        
        Brilliant paraphrasing. Let me help:
        
        "__Initially__, Microsoft says Surface will be sold in its retail stores and via Microsoft’s online stores." (emphasis mine)
        
        Since they don't even have any UK stores, this would have been the most obvious gun-to-foot statement, had it been true.
        
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        Wednesday 20th June 2012 09:15 GMT DrXym
        
        Re: Who is going to sell it?
        
        PC World / John Lewis sell android tablets and iPad tablets which have built-in stores. I really don't buy the argument that they'll not stock Windows tablets if they follow suit. It may be they slap a large margin on the devices to ensure they make money but they'll sell them. If Microsoft have any sense they'll also allow stores to sell voucher codes for online products too and split some of the money with them.
        
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Tuesday 19th June 2012 14:45 GMT Anonymous Coward

MS have a few problems here..

Number one, I suspect: Windows 8 on the desktop. There's a lot of criticism, a lot of negativity, and a lot of speculation that it'll be Vista 2: Bigger, badder, and floppier. Selling a tablet with an OS people don't like is a hard sell. It's a harder sell when the part people don't like is the number one feature. It may be fantastic on the tablet, but if people had a bad experience on the PC they might avoid it.

Number 2: Windows RT. It might be fantastic again, but it won't run standard windows apps. Mr. Joe Average is going to want web, email, and 1 or 2 old apps he likes and has used for years. OK, so it's not a PC, it's a tablet and you shouldn't expect it to run them, but the Pro version will run those apps. People are going to get very confused. Confused people get angry, and take things back to shops. Being told "If you just pay an extra £400, you can have this hot, thick slab with the Intel sticker..." won't help.

No popcorn icon, but I'll settle in with a beer to watch it all unfold :)

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1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 14:53 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: MS have a few problems here..
  
  To be fair to microsoft (It happens occasionally), Most of the reviews i've seen of Metro say that it will make an extremely good tablet OS. Its just sucks on the desktop.
  
  4 1
  1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:05 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    Re: MS have a few problems here..
    
    Yeah, which will make it pretty ironic if failure on the desktop ends up pissing on an otherwise good tablet platform!
    
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  2. Tuesday 19th June 2012 22:20 GMT plrndl
    
    Re: MS have a few problems here..
    
    Are these Metro reviewers the same people who laughed at the iPad, and thought that Windows Phone 7 was the best thing since sliced bread?
    
    1 1
    1. Wednesday 20th June 2012 10:38 GMT Anonymous Coward
      
      Re: MS have a few problems here..
      
      Can you explain why it's a problem that someone would like WP7 and not an iPad? They're different devices, different form factors and have radically different OSes.
      
      1 1
2. Wednesday 20th June 2012 03:21 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: MS have a few problems here..
  
  I was prepared to think Win8 sucks on the desktop, until I got bored and installed Release Preview on my 2008-era netbook. It grew on me very quickly, and I'm now excited for some new hardware that can take better advantage of its new features. I read that people miss the Start Menu, but it's still there--it just fills the screen, instead of popping out from an ugly, branded icon. As far as I'm concerned, the desktop experience is unchanged. I'm not interested in "apps," so i don't care if they integrate with my mission-critical software or not. The practical additions, especially things like File History, learned from Apple, are very welcome.
  
  3 2
3. Wednesday 20th June 2012 11:50 GMT Nigel 11
  
  Re: MS have a few problems here..
  
  I've been very critical on Win 8 on the desktop, but on a tablet it may actually work. All MS have to do is realize that the tablet and the desktop are different environments and offer an appropriate UI for each. If Win 8 included an XP-like UI and you could flip to the other one if you really wanted to use Metro on the desktop, I'd stop complaining. (XP UI = Win 7 minus Aero if they want, but not completely flattened, and retaining support for multiple windows, start menu, multiple screens, etc).
  
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  1. Wednesday 20th June 2012 12:57 GMT h4rm0ny
    
    Re: MS have a few problems here..
    
    "If Win 8 included an XP-like UI and you could flip to the other one if you really wanted to use Metro on the desktop, I'd stop complaining"
    
    I'm a bit confused by this, because you can flip between Metro and the desktop. You just tap the Windows key or click on the bottom left. It toggles between the two extremely quickly. The desktop in Win8 is not substantially different to the Desktop in Win7. The only real difference is you have a Start page, instead of a Start menu and that's very easy to get your head around. So I'm not really sure what you're saying you want as you seem to have it/
    
    1 1
Tuesday 19th June 2012 14:51 GMT K

We must f*ck up this this Window release, its in the business plan..

Looking at the M$ track record, they seem to royally f*ck up every other Windows release..

Windows 98 - Brilliant

Windows Millenium - Big f*ck up

Windows XP - Brilliant

Windows Vista - Big fuck up

Windows 7 - Brilliant

Windows 8 - Big fuck up...

How is this possible? To be this stupid must involve some kind of conspiracy theory, perhaps they do it, it drops people expectations, then the next release they can roll out a great product and go "taa daa".

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1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 14:54 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: We must f*ck up this this Window release, its in the business plan..
  
  Yeah, well consistancy is important in IT...
  
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2. Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:03 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: We must f*ck up this this Window release, its in the business plan..
  
  Not this crappy old meme again...
  
  For a start, Win3.11/WFW was rather good.
  
  Windows 95 (the next OS from Win3.11) was rather good
  
  You missed out Windows NT 3.1/3.5(ok, ish), NT4 (rather good) and Win2000 (very good) in order that you could jump to XP (very good) on the NT line of OSes.
  
  8 4
  1. Friday 22nd June 2012 02:46 GMT M Gale
    
    NT4, rather good?
    
    Wasn't that the one where Microsoft first embedded half a web server in the kernel? About the same time that their web server had a showstopper bug, that meant that if you were running IIS (which asides Exchange was the only use for NT4 at the time), anybody on the planet could invoke root-level commands on your box by typing in a carefully-crafted URL string?
    
    The one that wasn't fixed until service pack 6?
    
    I still remember a friend showing off the new BackOffice server he'd set up at his workplace. I had to tell him to firewall that bloody web server, and he wouldn't believe why until I went home, got a printout of the server's directory structure and handed it to him. I could have just have easily converted "format c: /y" into unicode twice. Or perhaps something clever with ftp.exe.
    
    No, NT4 was unmitigated shit. Polished shit, but still shit.
    
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3. Tuesday 19th June 2012 17:44 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: We must f*ck up this this Window release, its in the business plan..
  
  this one again....
  
  3.11 was quite good,
  
  95 was terrible, OSR2 was slight less terrible, an ok for the time
  
  98 was partially crap, im talking USB people! 98se not too bad at all
  
  ME, poor (although Misunderstood and ok after a few SPs!)
  
  XP TERRIBLE, it was a steaming pile of dog turd until SP2
  
  vista (poor on old hardware until a couple of service packs)
  
  7 pretty good out of the box, given that it is built on Vista that's not surprising.
  
  Now that ignores the NT line of OSs (to a point) which really bugger up your idea, because NT4 and 2000 were very good too
  
  So there you have it, lets let this stupid tick tock crap good theory go to bed now shall we.
  
  fact is after a couple of service packs "usually" any MS OS has been actually pretty good.
  
  3 3
4. Wednesday 20th June 2012 03:39 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: We must f*ck up this this Window release, its in the business plan..
  
  Times have changed. Now it works like this:
  
  OS X Leopard: Brilliant
  
  OS X Snow Leopard: Brilliant
  
  OS X Lion: Big F*ck Up
  
  OS X Mountain Lion: Big F*ck Up
  
  I'm switching back. I won't be alone.
  
  2 2
5. Wednesday 20th June 2012 07:15 GMT Jess
  
  Re: We must f*ck up this this Window release, its in the business plan..
  
  Windows 98 and XP were not brilliant on release they were awful. It was only after several service packs (or whatever they called it on 98) that they became first usable, and then reasonable.
  
  Their predecessor 95 and 2000 both worked far better.
  
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Tuesday 19th June 2012 14:55 GMT TRT

How long will it be...

before it's christened "The headache tablet?"

Paris, because she never has a headache.

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Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:00 GMT Code Monkey

It has to not suck on the desktop

MS do make decent hardware (even in my most penguinphile days I was never without an MS mouse) and a proof-of-concept for how they think a Windows 8 PC should be is a good idea.

However, this is no damned use for millions of developers and business users. It's imperative that Windows 8 doesn't suck on the desktop and I've seen no sign of this.

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1. Wednesday 20th June 2012 10:43 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: It has to not suck on the desktop
  
  @Code Monkey. What one individual thinks means little but my experience using Win8 RP is the desktop minor step forward from Win7 and the addition of support for Metro style apps of little value at the moment, but could be useful in future, esp with the fact they will be available ver multiple devices.
  
  It would be a drastic mistake by Microsoft if in the future apps like Office were limited to being full/split screen on desktop machines but highly unlikely to happen. My best guess is by Win9 we'll have a revamped desktop and some Metro-desktop interoperability
  
  So, what is it about your experience with Win8 desktop which makes you feel it sucks?
  
  1 1
Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:00 GMT Colin Millar

Chalk and cheese

Openness of architecture comes from the OS - not the form.

The form itself (tablet) is what doesn't lend itself to customization - tablets are pretty much an evolutionary dead end with no discernable development since the first iPad.

Surface is a marketing ploy of some kind to be sure - anyone suggesting that MS are taking on apple in their own backyard is delusional - there is nothing about any of this which suggests a shift of that nature. All of this is to support Win8 because the picture hasn't changed for MS.

The real issue is what will you do today with the OS - and that will be the question for MS for the foreseeable future.

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Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:03 GMT Captain Save-a-ho

Introducing Windows 8!

From the people that brought you EDLIN!

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1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:05 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: Introducing Windows 8!
  
  Really? In the 1980s text editors weren't as good as they are today?
  
  0 1
2. Tuesday 19th June 2012 18:26 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Hmmm
  
  I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here, but for it's time, edlin was truly ground-breaking. It provided a much richer user experience with tight integration to the OS allowing for a quantum leap in productivity compared to the Unix based ed and vi, that Linux STILL NEEDS !!! Wake me up when there's a so-called "free" operating system for tablet computers that comes close to surface.
  
  For that matter microsoft has also released operating systems for portable telephones, and that's no mean feet (faet ?) !
  
  0 4
  1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 21:05 GMT tom dial
    
    Re: Hmmm
    
    edlin was a POS poor imitation of ed. Vi is an enormously capable text editor for a wide range of purposes, far better for many purposes than anything Microsoft ever produced, like notepad, wordpad, or Word. It, or a similar editor is available on every Unix/Linux system and can be used where necessary (by one who has the knowledge), to fix configuration files, although I haven't had to do that in the last several years on Debian, Ubuntu, HP-UX or Solaris, as they have curses or gui tools that are up to most tasks.
    
    Did most of this come from a Microsoft Announcement? The Windows UI 8 is inferior in usability (for this user) to: MacOS, OS/X, Linux with Gnome 2, Windows 7 and its predecessors back to Windows 2000, and even (although marginally) Linux with Gnome 3 or Ubuntu with Unity.
    
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3. Tuesday 19th June 2012 22:24 GMT plrndl
  
  Re: Introducing Windows 8!
  
  EDLIN was from IBM.
  
  0 1
  1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 23:39 GMT Richard Plinston
    
    Re: EDLIN was from IBM.
    
    > EDLIN was from IBM.
    
    Completely wrong.
    
    """Edlin was created by Tim Paterson in two weeks in 1980, and was expected to have a six-month shelf life."""
    
    1 0
Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:17 GMT Pat 11

Touch v Desktop

They've correctly identified the problem of their main threat (Apple, not Google) - OS fragmentation between their two hardware platforms. Unfortunately they have tried to address it by bolting the touch OS into the desktop. Only MS could fuck up so badly. They have always been truly dreadful at HCI, but they will probably sort it out next cycle, after getting the solution crowd-sourced by releasing a pile of crap.

5 2
1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 17:26 GMT pixl97
  
  Re: Touch v Desktop
  
  Not only fragmentation between desktop vs tablet, but tablet vs tablet. If you look at MS's history of mobile OS's they have changed so damn much. Windows CE and the phone 5/6/7 OS's are so much different. Even the differences between XP, Vista, 7, and now 8 are pretty big. One of the things that many people I talk to love about iOS is that even when a new version comes out, it's pretty much the same. No retraining to use an iphone 4 over an iphone 3, ipad is pretty much just a larger version. Settings are pretty much in the same place, apps are the same. And it doesn't appear that Apple is going to introduce any major changes in the looks and operations of the iOS in the near future. Microsoft is their own FUD generator when it comes to mobile... 'is the platform going to be supported long term?', 'will MS introduce major UI changes in the next version?', 'Will this platform go the way of the Zune in a year?'.
  
  I will say the idea of merging both together will reduce the total amount of training to learn the new OS. It is a big gamble, and not one I'm liking on the desktop, but long term it could pay of for them.
  
  1 1
2. Tuesday 19th June 2012 21:26 GMT Richard Plinston
  
  Re: Touch v Desktop
  
  > by bolting the touch OS into the desktop
  
  That isn't to fix fragmentation. The strategy is to make Metro "the most familiar UI on the planet" (said by MS spokesman). By forcing it down your throats you will eventually love it and demand this UI on your phone and on your tablet.
  
  This will fail because they forgot that releasing Windows 8 does not make all XP and 7 users automatically run Metro. An emergency, critical, unavoidable SP pack will fix that.
  
  0 0
  1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 23:36 GMT Richard 12
    
    Re: Touch v Desktop
    
    "An emergency, critical, unavoidable SP pack will fix that."
    
    Even Microsoft wouldn't be that stupid.
    
    Their bread and butter revenue comes from corporate IT, and doing that would quite simply result in corporate IT shutting down all Windows Update and rapidly searching for an alternative operating system that didn't force that kind of change on them.
    
    Can you imagine the CEO of MegaCorp turning on his computer one day and finding Metro instead of his expected desktop photo of his children?
    
    - However, they probably wouldn't actually take up the alternative because the threat alone would force Microsoft to publicly fire whoever they could blame for forcing the update. Thus nobody below Ballmer would sign it off, and even he might get forced out by shareholders if it was proven.
    
    You cannot change out the UI that radically in any corporate environment. The ribbon was a minor change compared to pushing Metro.
    
    1 0
Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:30 GMT cloudgazer

Perhaps they'll really imitate Apple and go to Foxconn

Newsflash: They use Foxconn already, have for a while now.

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Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:38 GMT banjomike

Very nice looking tablet ...

but it does not compensate me for the threat of having to use Windows 8 on my desktop.

2 2
Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:43 GMT Anonymous Coward

Two words...

Ubuntu - Unity.

'nuff said.

0 3
Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:48 GMT ukgnome

Doesn't anyone remember Bill Gates's tablet?

Awesome piece of kit, just a shame it was too ahead of its time. Hopefully M$ do, and this bit of kit will be OK.

3 2
Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:54 GMT Anonymous Coward

No compromise?

Quote: "Microsoft [...] putting into practice some of its ideas, without compromise."

This is exactly the problem. Design doesn't mean throwing every conceivable 'good' thing into one product. Questions such as, "what is the product intended to do" or "who is going to use it" lead to specific performance criteria, by which you can decide what is "good" or "bad" or where a compromise is required (when two essential goals conflict). It is *impossible* to design one thing to do everything. If you try, very few people will like it because the refusal to compromise ultimately leads to impaired performance.

This device looks like everything plus the kitchen sink thrown in, and yet I can't see how it could come close to competing with devices designed to do a specific task.

1 0
1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 22:56 GMT Diogenes
  
  Re: No compromise?
  
  I can't see how it could come close to competing with devices designed to do a specific task.
  
  ....
  
  As a teacher I want I want I want...
  
  tablet form to replace textbooks, internet access for research, stylus for taking notes in oneNote , selecting answers in moodle quizs, and even dashing off a quick sketch to show a design idea in IT subjects(or marking homework :-) ), + the keyboard to use if you need to actually type something.
  
  Sadly the price will be to high for this purpose. ...
  
  1 0
Tuesday 19th June 2012 15:56 GMT RussellMcIver

Xbox loss?

As Microsoft don't publish figures specifically for the Xbox product, instead just giving information on the whole Entertainment and Devices Division, I'm wondering where this ~$200m loss figure comes from?

2 1
1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 22:33 GMT plrndl
  
  Re: Xbox loss?
  
  http://www.microsoft.com/investor/EarningsAndFinancials/Earnings/PressReleaseAndWebcast/FY12/Q3/default.aspx (scroll down to the end)
  
  0 1
  1. Wednesday 20th June 2012 09:00 GMT RussellMcIver
    
    Re: Xbox loss?
    
    Again, that only lists figures for the entire Entertainment and Devices division so cannot be used to indicate whether or not the Xbox itself is still a loss maker.
    
    Anyone got actual figures for just the Xbox?
    
    1 0
Tuesday 19th June 2012 16:07 GMT Anonymous Coward

Unfortunately win8 will do well because all the magazines and tech papers will, on the day, say wow it's great, you've gotta buy this! or they won't get lots of advertising from MS and all the pc maker/box shifters.

Most people who buy computer stuff don't know how to tell if some thing's good or bad, they're just consumers consuming stuff.

What Apple did was get all the media types to use pads on all the media so the consumers could see them being used by the "cool" people, while saying they're great. It's marketing, that's what Apple do best and that's what MS will do to push win8.

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1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 16:24 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  @AC
  
  That's the same thing they said about Vista.
  
  2 0
  1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 18:35 GMT M. Poolman
    
    Re: @AC
    
    What is your point here ? (and who is "they" ?)
    
    Every new release of windows generates pretty much the same stream of pro and anti arguments. If you just modify them to match the current release name/number, they're almost indistinguishable. What really matters is users reactions 6 months or so down the line.
    
    I don't use windows myself, but I know plenty who do. Wasn't Vista the most hated version of windows ever ?
    
    2 0
2. Wednesday 20th June 2012 12:01 GMT Nigel 11
  
  Vista?
  
  The Microsoft Shills were all busy raving about how wonderful Vista was before you could buy it. May have helped con a few neophiles out of a few bucks, but couldn't save it.
  
  In retrospect MS were very smart pretending that Windows 7 wasn't Vista SP1. They dumped a name that was irreversibly associated with crap, and got to charge the neophiles for another "new" OS. That's a trick they missed with XP, which we tend to forget was as borked as Vista until SP1 (and maybe SP2)
  
  However, all of these pale into insignificance compare to trying to convince the world that the desktop is a tablet. That's a one way trip to corporate oblivion, if they don't pull back from the brink before they can Windows 7.
  
  1 2
Tuesday 19th June 2012 16:15 GMT Monty Burns

"surface" has been out for months ffs....

You guys all live in a cave??? :)

Seriously, Google Samsung series 7 slate, buy one (like I have) and sling on Windows 8 preview.... job done.

P.s. works great at work, especially with OneNote and the stylus for note taking in meetings, then behaves like a normal laptop i.e. excel, word etc... and then I sit here in a hotel bar browsing the web as a tablet (I travel A LOT for work). For me, this is the ideal platform.

2 1
1. Tuesday 19th June 2012 17:01 GMT Saucerhead Tharpe
  
  Re: "surface" has been out for months ffs....
  
  Get a series 7 slate?
  
  OK, I'll do thet.
  
  Dum de dum de dum, £1,300
  
  No. Maybe I won't
  
  2 2