Review: Raspberry Pi
No review is ever written in isolation, absent from context. Usually, you can guess the reviewer's bias within a few paragraphs, and compensate accordingly. He hates LCD display quality, she dislikes proprietary software, they yearn for the days of full bandwidth vinyl. You get the idea. Raspberry Pi ARM PC Raspberry Pi Alpha …
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Re: Memory
I know it's ridiculous. I would have thought 640K ought to be enough for anyone.
Re: Memory constraints
Probably most hobbyist programmers and schoolchildren won't know what to do with all the memory available (except maybe when they manage to get 3D going that needs large maps and textures), but when you start throwing significant javascript around on a webpage with some images, that's when things really start to get hairy.
And don't forget that while there's certainly a lot of bloat in many software packages, a lot of modern ones actually do significant stuff that needs lots of RAM.
Re: Waiting to pre-order...
Plenty of people around doing cool stuff with Arduino boards with 64k.
Re: Waiting to pre-order...
The hardware is okay IF you have a stable power-supply. The main problem seems to be driving USB ports .. basically if need more than 2 usb devices you MUST use a good POWERED hub and use a decent power supply (>1amp) on that as well.
I've managed to get 7 usb devices hung off a single powered hub and communicating okay so far .. I will be trying out 3G dongles, web cams, wifi, bluetooth, OBDII, keypads, VOIP handsets etc to see what it can cope with.
I've seen a few application panics under Arch Linux .. theory is that the USB/Ethernet chip driver is "sub-optimal" at the moment (not unusual for Linux in my experience !-).
Re: RE:Memory
> Running firefox and multiple tabs on top, and trying to view webpages full of images and scripts, you're going to start swapping like crazy
That's more a reflection on crap Firefox coding than on the system where you're trying to run it. A browser that takes GB of RAM, FFS! Someone needs to go back to progamming school.
Re: Waiting to pre-order...
re "you don't need a new machine to code with" . exactly what I thought.
I'm still getting a raspberry pi, but that is because it is small and cheap, and I want to put in places, like home automation, where you only want and require small and cheap low power devices.
if the GPIO pins can be interfaced well to run relays, PWM power control, etc then I can see the RPi being much better than the arduino I've got. On the RPi model B you get ethernet on board instead of on a "shield" like the arduino.
An arduino + ethernet shield is about the same price as a RPi model B, and only has a fraction of the computing power.
Re: Memory
Speaking of 640K, perhaps DOS can be ported to it.
Re: Memory
Already had Windows 95 running in DosBox running on the Raspi....
Re: RE:Memory (and firefox)
It's not just firefox that has the large footprint but.... yeah, it's pretty poor. I'm not sure whether you ought to blame firefox or the legions of web developers who no longer consider footprint or performance to be their problem, but either way it's ridiculous that I can have three tabs open and be using half a GB of RAM for the browser alone.
Who's with me for the native/local code revolution?
Re: "you don't *need* a new machine to code with."
So do your playing around with a virtual machine already. If it all goes wrong then you don't even have to reflash - just reload the latest snapshot. Takes about ten seconds on VirtualBox.
Re: Waiting to pre-order...
Don't know if this helps... recently had to use an old XP pc with very little RAM. I found that Opera worked much better than Chrome- if this is because of Chrome's one-instance-per-tab design, then the performance difference might be seen in Linux too.
Also, there is the option to use Opera Turbo (website data get compressed on Opera's servers) which whilst designed to save bandwidth would obviously save some memory too.
Re: "you don't *need* a new machine to code with."
What a load of nonsense. The wannabee kernel mode developer already has a way to do exactly this, by using a vm on their operating system of choice.
I know lots of BSD kernel developers who run OS X on their laptops, and test all their kernel changes in VMs. Very little needs actual hardware to develop upon.
too much of a salesman
Yeah don't really like the review sorry. You made it sound like a usable computer but it really isn't. It's less usable than the first generation Atom netbooks which is now gathering dust because nobody can make it work in 1080p (or 720p for that matter) without lag and sync issues running on Ubuntu.
If you focus the article more on the embedded electronics capabilities then I see the appeal given that 4 years ago I had to make do with a Gumstix that is > 150 USD.
Selling a embedded electronics as a fully functional HTPC is something I personally find dissatisfying after we've already fallen into that trap once.
Re: too much of a salesman
Who buys a netbook to run 1080p video?
Re: too much of a salesman
Considering the fact you bought a netbook to run 1080p video you're probably too dumb to bother with this device anyway. If you think all it's good for is embedded electronics you're just plain silly.
Re: too much of a salesman
"In day-to-day use though, is it a PC replacement? Nope, probably not. The main killer is more the 256MB limit, than the clockspeed. It's fine for word-processing, and a little spreadsheet-ing, but as a thin client, it struggled to deal with the bulk of modern web-app sites – webmail, Dropbox, Stackoverflow and the like – and was prone to hanging when switching between browser windows." Not a very good salesman IMHO
Re: too much of a salesman
Re first-generation Atoms, I am clearly browsing this story on a figment of my imagination. I should market the idea, it should come in at significantly less than $25 a pop, with the economies of scale.
Re: too much of a salesman
I don't recall saying I brought the netbook to run 1080p. Though I did buy it to see what the fuss is about. But enough about that.
The fact that if you search on Google or been active in any Linux forums, you'll find a lot of people now wants to do so because they finally figured out netbook can't even be used to do word processing in a satisfactory manner should be tell tale enough.
Also 'if I think all it's good for is embedded electronics you're just plain silly'. I don't know how to tell you but embedded electronics covers a large enough market share, so why is it that I'm silly because I think this device can be used to build, power and control 90% of your household items?
Re: too much of a salesman
"Not a very good salesman IMHO"
Yeah. Well done, pick the only 1 sentence where he said it isn't a PC replacement. Ignore the 2 pages full of praise and marketing of it's PC capabilities.
Re: too much of a salesman
"Who buys a netbook to run 1080p video?"
Nobody - at least not 'simply' because it is marketed to run 1080p. But that's not the point of the OP is it? It is about what the review is marketing. Basically this review sounds like a netbook hype review which nobody in their right mind today would even believe.
Have a sense of context people. The OP wasn't criticising the device.
Re: too much of a salesman
"And yes, sorry, must stop calling it a board; it really is a PC. Indeed the Rπ Foundation could rightfully claim the title of cheapest bare-bones PC on the market."
"Unbelievable bang-for-your-buck educational/hobbyist ARM-based PC."
"Bare bones computing"
Yet it's computing power is that of a first generation Android tablet? Who in their right mind would buy this to run a PC? Rπ Foundation didn't claim it's the cheapest bare-bones PC or made any reference to PC for the right reasons.
Re: too much of a salesman
It is a perfectly usable computer. It isn't really suitable as a desktop replacement, which the reviewer makes perfectly clear, however that's not the only possible purpose of a computer, and nor is it the target market.
As an HTPC (again, not the target market, but that doesn't mean it's not usable as one) - it's probably far more capable than your Atom netbook, since it has an inbuilt GPU capable of 1080p decode (and OpenGL ES 2.0 HW accelerated graphics). Currently not everything makes use of this acceleration, but these are early days. I downloaded the Raspbmc beta yesterday and that certainly looks promising.
Re: figment of my imagination.
Cost is the primary selling point of the Raspberry, but the OP isn't talking about the device's good points or bad point is it? You guys obviously haven't subscribed to a 25mbit internet plan but only got 8 mbit real bandwidth.
The Raspberry Pi is made for education and hobbyist electronic projects. Not for the PC. Clearly a warning label is warranted for pedestrians before they become zombified fan-bois only to fall into the trap of 'hype and dump' much like Facebook's shares.
Re: too much of a salesman
Do cite your benchmarks claims that the Raspberry Pi is faster than an Atom netbook.
Given that http://www.raspberrypi.org/faqs actually says the Pi has the equivalent of P2 - 300 Mhz performance and nobody on the raspberry forum claims it's faster than an Atom.
Even if it can decode 1080p flawlessly, sound and general processing are still required and depending where you storage is. Network streaming performance will count as well.
All in all, pretty sure it won't work as a HTPC properly.
"First generation Atom netbooks"
Luxury! In my day we had to make do with Celerons.
Re: "First generation Atom netbooks"
LMAO. Quite sure many people here would say in my days we had to make do with Pentiums, and even more that will say I used to play on the BBC Micro but ok.
Re: too much of a salesman
My first generation aspire one is still limping along fine. If you ignore the ageing battery and the duct tape holding the casing together (It has been about 4 years). Still gets more use than my desktop.
Re: too much of a salesman
It's more than sufficient to run a web server, or to run a few discrete apps such as a media server.
Once you pile a desktop on though it probably does suffer. It has a fairly underpowered CPU and a brick wall of limited physical memory. The only place to go is to cut the desktop to the bone and / or enable swap. Swap would have to be on the flash or USB neither of which is going to be very fast.
The issue is compounded somewhat because X11 is a context switching bloater. I think Raspberry Pi would benefit a lot when Wayland appears since it cuts the memory bloat and context switching right down. Wayland is even built on top of OpenGL ES so it would be hardware accelerated. It still wouldn't be a good desktop but it might be tolerable.
Re: too much of a salesman
Just to end this argument once and for all.
Look at a real clip of it running Big Buck Bunny with FPS.
http://youtu.be/4NR57ELY28s
8 FPS with Stereo. Not what I call a HTPC. No 5.1 Surround, can't run 24 fps.
Enough said.
Re: too much of a salesman
> 8 FPS with Stereo. Not what I call a HTPC. No 5.1 Surround, can't run 24 fps.
What a complete tool you are! Does that really look like 8 FPS to you? FFS listen to the vid and you can hear the guy say "8 FPS which is incorrect". You've made yourself look a fool with your own evidence
Well played!
Re: pretty sure it won't work as a HTPC properly.
I can assure you that the RasPi is perfectly capable of running 1080p video, from local storage, or network attached.
Moving around the menus in OpenELEC/XBMC is not particularly snappy, but once you hit the "play" button, the performance is excellent. I have yet to notice a single dropped frame, or sound drop-out, and I've been playing with mine for nearly two weeks... (Ooh er missus).
HTH.
Re: too much of a salesman- @ AC (Tues22nd May 2012 09:00)
"All in all, pretty sure it won't work as a HTPC properly."
I beg to differ..
I Have been using my pi as a HTPC for a week or two now, using OpenELEC on the pi and serviio as a media server and it is perfectly usable as a HTPC playing 1080p video WITH sound over network....
It actually does a better job than the UPnP player built into my TV....
the only issue is that the on-screen menus tend to make the video stutter slightly, but as its even a pre beta release of the source code I don’t expect it to be perfect, but with each build it is getting better. When it actually gets to an official release of an SD card image then expect a fully fledged tiny HTPC...
Re: too much of a salesman
"My first generation aspire one is still limping along fine"
So is mine.... battery is totally screwed and its on its second PSU, no duct tape though, but i have worn away the case on the touchpad so much it has a black spot in the middle....
Linpus got ditched, an extra gig of ram installed, windows 7, and it gets used more than any of my other computers....
that said, it does need a replacement, I am sick of the site of it.....
Re: too much of a salesman
Yeah, mine got pulled apart, I ripped out the ssd and replaced it with a fast cf, stuck in another gig of ram. Linpus got launched immediately. It's been running ubuntu (too much crap i don't use), debian (better) and finally arch, from the ground up (quite nippy).
The battery is dead on mine, I also had to buy a second psu (£5, ebay). My clumsiness means I also had to replace the screen. I've said that it's on 'do not resuscitate' from here on in.
Arch Linux and netbooks
Ah, another Arch user :-) Last summer, I was looking for a replacement distro for my trusty Eee 701SD (yup, the "original netbook" from 2007 - 7" WVGA screen, 8GB SSD, etc.), and eventually settled on Arch, largely because it's fast and highly customisable.
Best decision I ever made regarding the Eee (aside from upgrading the RAM to 2GB). Arch really gave the little fella a new lease of life - the machine fairly zips along, though leaving out a desktop environment (I use Fluxbox as a window manager) probably helped a bit there.
I think I'll run the Eee until it drops, then perhaps I'll take a look at one of those ARM "netbooks". Hopefully they'll have matured a bit more by then...
In Education
Though aimed at education ,the massive interest outside education is a really good thing. We have teachers that are not specialised IT teachers, teaching IT classes, some with very poor understanding of computers and how or why they work (some can't even cut and paste, that's Ctrl C, Ctrl V not just nicking some information.) So enthusiasts from outside schools is a very good thing to drive the available echo system forward, volume to reduce costs etc.
Can't even cut and paste?
Surely that should be copy and paste?
Or perhaps you meant Ctrl-X, Ctrl-V
Yeah, nitpicking. While I'm at it, it's ecosystem.
Cut & Paste
The first time i used XP, I found that the middle mouse button did not work (as expected). Luckily the machine's owner was near by to explain that paste was Ctrl-something-I-have-forgotten. The usual default Linux settings are:
Left click: Do what I usually mean.
Left click and drag: Select for pasting.
Middle click: Paste.
Right click: Show a menu with less commonly used choices.
Alt-left click & drag: Move window - handy if the window is bigger than the screen.
Shift right triple click while singing the Monty Python spam song with your left knee behind you ear: Not normally assigned but I am sure someone will thing of a suitable use.
Re: Can't even cut and paste?
Heh, 4dW + p...
Even though I like VIM, I can't help but wonder why it didn't quite catch on.
I just want one (one?? 3!!) to run Raspbmc on - powered by my telly's USB port, HDMI, hardwired to the LAN and all the media stored on my NAS, remoted by using something like Constellation on my phone/tablet and I'll be selling my WD TV Live units on eBay..
You can't power it off your TV's USB port, there's not enough power for the Pi.
TV USB powah
Oh... I better stop doing that then. Thanks for the heads up.
I have it powered happily with my Panasonic TVs usb port.
I am using the Open Elec XBMC build headless with the android XBMC, streaming my content from my NAS and I was really blown away by it. Surprisingly responsive and usable. I'm not sure I'd let any other member of the family to use it but if I'm steering I'd be happy to use it.
As for a tool to learn programming, I've never understood the use. Join www.codeacademy.com and learn via a browser. There is no reason to buy a Pi for it.
TV Power
Actually, I cam power it off the TV. I have a Y type USB cable that has two ports for power to a single micro (like some of the 3G dongles use), that will power it adequately. :)
Re: TV USB powah
"Oh... I better stop doing that then. Thanks for the heads up.
I have it powered happily with my Panasonic TVs usb port."
You haven't pushed the GPU far enough then. Pi at full tilt needs 700mA, regular USB port is 500mA.
Re: TV USB powah
"You haven't pushed the GPU far enough then. Pi at full tilt needs 700mA, regular USB port is 500mA."
However if you're managing 1080p decodes without random lockups, then perhaps your USB port is supplying enough power. That's one of the most demanding usecases. I found XBMC gui very unstable when I was using a dodgy power supply.
Re: TV USB powah
I think it's adequate. I was running almost all 1080p videos I had. It did choke and stutter (unwatchably) on a 12Gb DTS audio, 1080p video with a 20Mb/s bitrate. So if I had more powah it would work better? Woop!
Locked down you say?
What sort of lockdown are we talking? Physical, or one that some cheeky scamp might circumvent in due course?
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