Re: Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

@AC 12:49

"which specific law of physics is changed by flashing blue lights, sirens, driver training etc?"

I didn't say that the laws of physics changed. When they speed they do so in a way that alerts everyone around them such that there is a clear, unobstructed path for them. There will be no pedestrians, cars, whatever in their way. Breaking the speed limit without the sirens / lights means there's a good chance you'll hit someone / something that wasn't expecting you to be going that fast. Going at 60mph, you'd travel over 100m in the time it takes for someone to cross a road (much further if they're shepherding children / aged / etc). If the crossing is not visible from 100m away, should you be doing 60? And how would you know that it's not OK to do 60? A speed limit perhaps?

Re: Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

"I'd accept this, provided my car speedo was absolutely accurate ... and I got an audible warning when nudging over the limit."

Agreed - there a bit of the M1 (somewhere near Barnsley) that I use regularly where I've had to school myself to watch the speedo - the first time I came down I glaced down and to my horror I was doing a ton without realising it.

However, just like the TalkTalk pr0n monitoring, how does the car know what the speed limit is?

Re: Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

Well, ok, but the faster you go the more the tyres swell and the more your speedo underreports whatever it was set to report. Jaguar used to give figures in their handbook for how much this effect was putting you under the danger of the radar gun.

Before you pooh-pooh this notion, I can tell you from (reluctant) personal experience that at 140mph (reported), an e-type's wheels start shedding spokes as the rims expand beyond Young's Modulus of Elasticity for e-type wire wheel spokes.

Or something. I wasn't paying that much attention in Physics ten years earlier.

I can also report that this effect also raises numerous welts on the driver's head as the terrified passenger hits him with whatever can be wrenched off the interior superstructure.

Re: @JetSetJim, was Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

But, the guy or girl three cars back is, of course, travelling with a proper amount of distance between themselves and the car in front of them, right? So they should have no problem dealing with the idiot in front of them who's tailgating someone else and then suddenly locking them up, right?

Or are they tailgating too?

Re: @JetSetJim, was Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

It's illegal to slow down in the UK? Holy shit, not wonder you have so many accidents

Re: @JetSetJim, was Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

If someone is tail-gating really close, I usually turn on the hazard lights and gently ease off the accelerator. Farting around with tapping the brakes is just making an already risky situation worse.

Re: Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

"But when they are speeding, there's those bright flashing blue lights and really loud sirens to warn everyone for miles around that they are there."

Doesn't prevent the numpties from running the red lights around my way. They know that unless the emergency vehicle actually hits them they'll get away with it. I don't know which is worse. Them or the others who blindly stop & block the road.

"Speeding without those lights and sirens should rightly be punishes - lead by example after all."

How do you train emergency vehicle drivers then?

@Anonymous Coward ""Having been a motorcycle police officer . . . .

"Driving at 60mph and causing queues and bunching !!"

How can you be causing queues and bunching at 60mph ??? (Assuming you are in the LHL on a motorway or on a single lane road)

Better get all those overtaking Lorries doing 56.5mph in the middle lane off the motorways then !

Re: Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

It will mean more running red lights.

There was a trial scheme in one town on this side of t'pond. Since they don't have detailed maps of speed limit zones it just tracked how often you braked hard.

More breaking = bad driver = lost your discount insurance rate.

So if a little old lady walks out into the road or a cyclist cuts across you - you have a split second to decide if the dent in the bonnet will be cheaper than the insurance hike.

Re: @annodomini2 Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

>"Speed doesn't inherently kill"

>Do they teach basic physics in school these days?

They do teach basic physics. Force is proportional to acceleration... did you not see the word 'inherently' included in the sentance? On the motorway, the things around you tend to have a lower relative speed to yourself than when you're pootling through town at 30mph.

Being ignorant of physics is one thing, but to incorrectly chastise others for the ignorance you yourself exhibit... tch

Re: Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

The GPS in my phone has been known to tell the driver to "Observe speed limit" on occasion. I was surprised enough when the woman delivered the admonishment the first time that I nearly dropped it (I was navigating passenger at that point).

Re: @annodomini2 Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

" There are also reasons for speed limits nothing to do with danger."

Ya, generating revenue.

" So I (and about 30 other cars at any one time) waste 5 minutes every day at this junction, just so that the "main" road cars can drive at 40mph instead of 30mph for a 400 yd stretch (saving themselves about 7 seconds)."

Sounds like you need a traffic light.

Re: Decades of road safety research

" There is a power law correlation between speed and death. A fourth power correlation. If you don't like the research then feel free to point out its flaws."

Ok; I read the first couple pages of the above linked pdf. They say themselves that the power law doesn't show that greater speed causes more accidents, but that greater injuries result from accidents, which would be predicted by physics. They also mention that some of the studies showed that a variance from the mean speed was an issue. That doesn't mean that increased absolute speed is more dangerous if everyone is going about the same speed. Obviously you dont want to blow past people 20mph faster than them. Also they only show a correlation, it could be that dicks who would drive recklessly are also more likely to speed, or that distracted drivers arent watching their speed.

Re: Decades of road safety research

Actually, for reasons I cant fathom, the M6 seems more accident/tailback heavy in the good conditions of the summer than the bad conditions of winter.

Re: Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

that is correct , until some nonce changes the size of their wheels and decalibrates their speedo.

for 99% of people who don't fart around with their car's wheels you are correct.

Re: @Some Beggar

If, as you claim, you passed your Advanced Test "nearly twenty years ago" then I suggest you might like to visit your local IAM group and get yourself an Assessment because you may find that the System and the way it's operated has changed since you last had an Observed Drive.

For instance, were you taught (as was the case) to slow down by changing down through the gears? These days it's "Gears to go, brakes to slow" and then shifting directly to a lower gear to match your engine revs to road speed rather than relying on engine braking since it's cheaper to replace brake pad than a clutch or gear box.

Even if what you are taught is still entirely the same as today, are you sure you're applying IPSGA exactly as you learned it nearly 20 years ago? Any Advanced Road User should always consider whether their skills are up to snuff and would have no problems in getting them checked to either make sure they're still doing it correctly or whether they've fallen into bad habits which could do with rectifying.

BTW whilst no IAM Observer will actually tell you "break the speed limit", the fact is that they will also tell you (as it says in this copy of How to Be a Better Rider I have here) "Does the rider use a 'thinking approach' to their riding?" ie taking into account the road conditions, traffic, hazards etc, or "is the system just slavishly applied?"

Similarly with overtakes, "Are overtakes carried out smoothly, safely and decisively?" As an Advanced Driver, would you start an overtake, accelerate until you reach the speed limit and then hold your speed at that level *increasing* the length of time you are in the opposite carriageway and putting yourself and other road users at risk? Or do you complete the overtake promptly and safely, then return to your own carriageway and reduce your speed back to the prevailing limit? If it's the former, you really have not understood what being an Advanced Road User is about and I *urge* you to get a refresher. If the latter then whilst you may not be driving "legally" according to the letter of the law, provided you do not cause other road users to change their speed or direction and do not do it recklessly or stupidly, no IAM Observer will have a problem.

PS if you *really* still doubt that I have passed my Advanced Test, may I invite you to read the Solent Advanced Motorcyclists May Newsletter at http://www.solent-advanced-motorcyclists.co.uk/images/MAKING_PROGRESS/may_2012.pdf and take a look at the article "Celebrating Success" on page 8 where my name is listed under those who have passed their IAM Test.

Re: Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

I wonder when the first car that ends up stalled on the freeway because of a DDOS attack?

Re: @annodomini2 Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

speed doesn't inherently kill.

stopping quickly does.

admittedly if you are doing 5 mph then stopping quickly is quite difficult.

if you are doing 70mph it is a whole lot easier to stop quickly.

Re: Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

Round here, you try to pass at ANY speed and the other car goes even faster to block you. Meanwhile, the ones behind him speed up and close the gap you left, meaning you can't go back. So what's worse? Speeding or driving the wrong way because you have no other way to get to your side? Where I live, speeding is simply a standard motor offense while driving the wrong way for too long is considered reckless driving: a jailable offense.

@mrfill

"It is quite possible to drive quickly and safely. It is also possible to drive within the speed limit at all times and be the greatest menace on the road - no spy-in-the-car will protect the good driver against them."

You'd have to be one of those 'unsafe' drivers to have THAT kind of problem!

Re: @JetSetJim, was Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

I had a Great mod on my first car, its was terrible and slow spluttery thing anyway I had to use it all i could afford after the insurance. I had a pain in my ar*se with trucks and knobs tailgating me. SO I fitted a second brighter blub and a switch to the brake lights housing new circuit) and a strip brake light to this same switch. When they were up my ring, id goad them on a bit then flip the switch and see them sh*t themselves. Ohh how I laughed, I once had to pull over to puke after one special bell end in a

3 series put himself in a ditch...

Re: Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

I wasn't quoting Clarkson.

Re: Chipping

Actually this is on the books but they have a serious problem.

How can they tell if it is chipped or not?

Flashed ECUs look the same, cars can have lots of different firmwares for the same car.

Basically it is completely inpracticle

Re: @annodomini2 Before anyone says "here comes big brother"...

At one point on my commute I turn right from the stem of a T junction. There is a lot of traffic doing the same as me, about 4 times as much as is coming along the "main" straight-through road. Although it is all in a 30 mph limit, the main road traffic is doing 40-45 mph. As a result, this light sprinkling of traffic on the "main" road holds back the much larger amount of traffic trying to pull out because much more space must be left in front of a faster vehicle.

Funny really but if I saw a queue like that I would slow and let a few do their turn

Re: @Some Beggar

@Graham Marsden

I'm just going to repeat the IAM quote I previously posted as it appears to have confused you:

"You will be required to drive within the law at all times during Observed Runs and on your test."

You can pile on as many paragraphs of bluster as you like but you'll still be wrong.

Re: @ Matthew 3 - "Speed doesn't inherently kill"

OK, here's what I'm talking about:

Executive Summary

The act of travelling fast isn't of itself fatal.

Elaboration

As I pointed out, it's possible to travel in excess of 500mph in an aeroplane. This is the fastest possible current speed any average human can reach (ok, without joining a space agency). Many thousands of people do this every day without a single speed-induced death. Care to explain that for me? In case you'd forgotten, Concorde's passengers regularly (and safely) exceeded 1300mph for the best part of three decades. When Concorde did crash it wasn't speed that caused that accident either. If you were right then the fastest forms of travel would be the most dangerous, rather than the safest. With cars, motorways are the safest roads even though cars are travelling faster. Speed alone doesn't seem to be killing people there either.

I do accept that injuries are more likely to be serious if something goes wrong when travelling at a higher speed. The majority of such injuries are caused by abrupt deceleration and the effects of momentum on the body. I don't think that's in dispute here. Of course momentum has a relationship with speed but, sadly, that's not the message given out by the 'speed kills' lobby. It doesn't even seem to be your point.

You can only ever be right if you re-state your position as "inappropriate speed kills".

I do recall people saying, back when steam trains were a new idea, that to exceed a walking pace was likely to cause physical injuries and risk death. Is this what you have in mind? I'm pretty sure that to still be of that view (when it's been so comprehensively disproven) is where I'd be applying words like 'infantile' 'dumb' and 'fallacy'.

Just out of curiosity, what speed do you have in mind that will inherently kill someone?

Re: @Some Beggar

And you can repeat yourself until you're blue in the face, but, whether you like it or not, I have just passed my Advanced Motorcycle test which included at least one manoeuvre which was technically "illegal", yet the IAM examiner who, as I pointed out before, is a serving Class 1 Police Motorcyclist did *NOT* have a problem with.

This is not "bluster", this is a fact. If you cannot deal with that, it's not my problem and I see little point in continuing to discuss this with you, instead, once again I urge you to get an up-to-date assessment of your claimed Advanced Driving skills since it seems that you do not appreciate or understand what Advanced Road Use is about.

Re: @Some Beggar

> The anecdote of an anonymous interneteer versus the official IAM line.

Well, I'm going to chime in to support the anonymous interneteer; some (not all) of the IAM branches I've seen do exactly as he says.

Vic.

Re: @Some Beggar

For obvious reasons, the party line is never, ever going to be, 'it's OK to break the law sometimes'. However, dogmatic fundamentalists amongst them aside, it preaches a methodology concerned with applying appropriate behaviour for the context. Sometimes, and hopefully only in an emergency rather than routinely, that appropriate behaviour may not be legal. This will not be shouted from any rooftops but if you privately discuss it with observers/assessors you may find some sensible concessions.

As any good driver knows, there's not much value in being legally and morally correct when you're in the hospital or the ground.

Re: @Some Beggar

I wasn't going to post again, but, really, you are making yourself look ridiculous now.

"Anonymous Interneteer?" Ye gods, you know my name, you can see it on all my posts (unlike you who are hiding behind a pseudonym!). You can see it on the Solent Advanced Motorcyclists Newsletter. I'm an Admin on the SAM Forums, I could post a message for you there. If you want I can also post a picture on there showing myself holding up my Pass Certificate (I can even put a message on it for you!). You can contact Alec Gore, Chief Observer of the Solent Advanced Motorcyclists Group or even PC Phil Pentelow the IAM Examiner and they can confirm I've passed the Test and Phil Pentelow, of course, saw the three car overtake! How much *more* evidence do you want before you are willing to consider that perhaps I am telling the truth???

Alternatively you can speak to your local IAM group and whilst they will never actually say "it's ok to break the speed limit", they will, as I mentioned before, tell you to complete overtakes as promptly and safely as possible.

The IPSGA System the IAM teaches provides *guidelines*, not something to be stuck to rigidly and unthinkingly, blindly adhering to "the rules" and I really am starting to have doubts that you have ever passed an IAM test (even 20 years ago) given that you appear to be unwilling or unableto apply any flexibilty in your thinking.

Now feel free to "bluster" by getting in the last word, because I *really* can't be bothered to waste any more time on this.