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back to article Pilots asking not to fly F-22 after oxygen problems

Some of the US Air Force's top pilots are asking not to fly the highest-tech aircraft in the fleet over fears about the safety of the oxygen system built into the F-22 Raptor. "It's shocking to me as a fighter pilot and former commander of Air Combat Command that a pilot would decline to get into that airplane," retired four- …

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    1. Colin Wilson 2
      Reply Icon

      Re: Interesting BBC documentry about altitude

      (... why you really should have a pressure suit above 65k feet ...)

      It's strange to think that Concorde flew every day for years and years at 60k feet, supercruising faster than any F-22 with 100 passengers and no pressure suits, oxygen masks or anything. Just Gins & Tonics

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      1. Vic
        Reply Icon

        Re: Interesting BBC documentry about altitude

        > Just Gins & Tonics

        Well, there you have it. The F22 is not equipped with a G&T device, and is therefore at risk.

        This would appear to be a very serious omission indeed, if you ask me.

        Vic.

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      2. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Thumb Up

        Re: Interesting BBC documentry about altitude

        Yes, but there was fairly stupendous airflow into the cabin available when needed and the Concs have very small windows to reduce the cabin pressure loss rate in the event of a window failure.

        It's all there in Trubby's books.

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  2. Wombling_Free

    Would the F23 have had the same problems?

    Just asking....

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    1. phuzz Silver badge
      Reply Icon
      Mushroom

      Re: Would the F23 have had the same problems?

      Probably not, it would have had New and Exciting problems :)

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      1. Magnus_Pym
        Reply Icon

        Re: Would the F23 have had the same problems?

        "Probably not, it would have had New and Exciting problems :)"

        No. It would have had New and Exciting Opportunities

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        1. Slabfondler
          Reply Icon
          FAIL

          Re: Would the F23 have had the same problems?

          Re: Would the F23 have had the same problems?

          ""Probably not, it would have had New and Exciting problems :)""

          "No. It would have had New and Exciting Opportunities"

          Features, we call them features.

          I read that report as well, okay skimmed it mostly. Looks like they lost a very very good pilot and an extremely expensive bit of kit, now I think they'll lose a lawsuit.

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  3. Christopher Slater-Walker
    FAIL

    Established processes?

    If requests not to fly the latest aircraft are unprecedented, how can there be an "established" process for dealing with such requests?

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    1. graeme leggett Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Established processes?

      Long established.

      '' a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he were sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to..."

      Heller, Catch-22

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    2. Ty Cobb
      Reply Icon
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Established processes?

      Unfortunately, that would be a court martial for failure to obey a general order or regulation, article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Frequent USAF logic is the meatbag is the problem, not the equipment.

      With regards to Hypoxia, aircrew in the US are required to be exposed to an Altitude Chamber and see the onset of symptoms they manifest. Rapid loss of pressure is an easy determination; colder interior, fogging , banging noises (such as when the overboard valve on the E3 I was on went fully open), losing peripheral vision, etc. The frequency of training was every 4 years when I retired. Slow leaks sneak up on you, and are more often fatal.

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    3. TimeMaster T
      Reply Icon
      Joke

      Re: Established processes?

      It the Military.

      they have a process on the books for how to take a piss.

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  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's unfortunate

    It's unfortunate that these issues happen but unless there is negligence involved, then law suits should not be allowed. Hopefully they can identify the true issue(s) and resolve them. The last that I heard it was an odor issue not a lack of oxygen that was the real issue.

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    1. b166er
      Reply Icon

      Re: It's unfortunate

      I thought CO was odourless :/

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      1. Circadian
        Reply Icon
        Stop

        Re: It's unfortunate

        "I thought CO was odourless :/" - no, it's the cover-up that stinks

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  5. Craig McGill 1

    No one gone for the obvious Top Gun song reference?

    It's a bad day when good taste is getting in here...

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    1. The Indomitable Gall
      Reply Icon

      Re: No one gone for the obvious Top Gun song reference?

      Erm... isn't that what the subhead is all about...?

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  6. JimmyPage Silver badge

    Remember what Alan Shepard said ...

    According to Gene Kranz in his book, Failure Is Not an Option, "When reporters asked Shepard what he thought about as he sat atop the Redstone rocket, waiting for liftoff, he had replied, 'The fact that every part of this ship was built by the low bidder.'"

    here

    2 1
  7. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

    'The Right Stuff'

    I remember reading 'The Right Stuff', and how all the test pilots basically blamed pilot error for almost any crash. I think it was 5 parts ego (I can fly anything) and 5 parts fear - what if the plane I'm in is an unflyable deathtrap? Best deny it, and blame the pilot.

    Fighter pilots don't suffer from a lack of ego or self-confidence. But I guess a problem that's definitely with the plane and no amount of piloting skill can solve, is something they just don't want to think about.

    Not that flying is as dangerous as back then. The Luftwaffe had something like 900 F104s and crashed 300 of them! Losing 115 pilots. link

    Here's a list: German F104 crashes

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    1. The Indomitable Gall
      Reply Icon

      Re: 'The Right Stuff'

      True enough.

      Look at automatic belay devices for climbers. Statistically safer than a human buddy, but there's something about the randomness of failure that really makes them frightening. Yeah, my buddy's more likely to drop me, but at least there's some notion of "control" in human error.

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    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 'The Right Stuff'

      > The Luftwaffe had something like 900 F104s and crashed 300 of them!

      Bit of a special case this; the crews had minimal training in unrepresentative conditions, the aircraft was inappropriate for the role (and was a bit shit anyway) and allegedly the only reason that it was in service with the Luftwaffe at all was to do with a German defence minister, Lockheed and a $10million bribe....

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      1. Trevor Marshall
        Reply Icon

        Re: 'The Right Stuff'

        In the words of Robert Calvert from 'Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters'

        "Catch a falling Starfighter

        Put it in the pocket of your jeans

        You can use it as a cigarette lighter

        Or as an opener for a can of beans"

        3 0
        1. graeme leggett Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: 'The Right Stuff'

          Lots of quotable lines.

          "G for Germany. Herr Minister. Und Gott strafe England".

          How do you get a Starfighter? Buy an plot of land and wait. (ok I mangled that last one)

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      2. Davidoff
        Reply Icon
        WTF?

        The aircraft was inappropriate for the role (and was a bit shit anyway)

        No, it wasn't. The F-104G was actually quite good in the A/S role, also thanks to (for its time) quite capable avionics and RADAR suite, and was a huge improvement over the underpowered F-86 it succeeded.

        It wasn't a stellar dog fighter, though, mainly because of the huge turning radius, and because of the combination of high fuel consumption and small fuel tanks.

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        1. hayseed
          Reply Icon

          Re: The aircraft was inappropriate for the role (and was a bit shit anyway)

          Um, that plane had blown flaps just to get down to safe landing speeds!

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          1. Field Marshal Von Krakenfart
            Reply Icon
            Paris Hilton

            blown flaps

            Eh, that warrants a Paris Icon, or is that fowler flaps I'm thinking of?

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    3. Davidoff
      Reply Icon
      Holmes

      Re: 'The Right Stuff'

      "The Luftwaffe had something like 900 F104s and crashed 300 of them! Losing 115 pilots."

      Yes, but then later they sold the remaining aircraft to the Italians who apparently managed to loose close to 50% of their fleet through crashes ,-)

      But at least for the Germans the main problem was training (pilots were trained and then spend one or two years on a desk until they were allowed to fly) and some oddities in the aircraft's design (of which many have been improved later on).

      But the main thing with the F-104 is that, even compared with other fast-jets, everything in this bird is going so fast that it requires a very focused pilot to avoid the aircraft outrunning its driver. The F-104 also doesn't forgive, and punishes complacency.

      I enjoyed every minute in it.

      1 1
  8. David Gosnell
    Coat

    A negative article about the F-22?!

    I thought for a moment Lewis had had an epiphany... no, different author!

    5 0
    1. RainForestGuppy
      Reply Icon

      Re: A negative article about the F-22?!

      I'm sure Lewis will link it to BAE, even if it's a junior technician at the O2 system supplier who has a brother-in-law who know somebody down the pub who works at BAE.

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    2. The Indomitable Gall
      Reply Icon

      Re: A negative article about the F-22?!

      Lewis is currently receiving oxygen from the paramedics.... ;-)

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  9. Great Bu

    Lemons ?

    Isn't it traditional to bite on a lemon wedge as you asphyxiate (after you have 'launched your payload' ).

    Or am I thinking of something else altogether ?

    1 0
  10. KirstarK
    Devil

    Wot no Lewis ?

    Interesting that Lewis didn't write this article.

    Would love to be there at reg cenral watching him twitch as an article with critique of the F22.

    I know maybe the F22 can use the O2 system from the Eurofighter

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  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    too expensive to risk in a war

    thinking back to the Dreadnought era, would any of these things even be in the air if the perceived opponents had a way to counter them?

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    1. disgruntled yank
      Reply Icon

      Re: too expensive to risk in a war

      Didn't the battleships get a lot of mileage in? Most of those sunk in round II were sunk from the air, but the British and Germans and US and Japanese actually had some ship-to-ship battles. Or are you thinking of the Kaiser's reluctance to risk his fleet (and ultimately the enlisted sailors' distaste for the grand suicidal gesture0?

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  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Captain Jeff "BONG" Haney?

    Are we SURE oxygen starvation was the real reason he passed out?

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  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Poor Lewis

    All this American bashing...

    Won't anyone think of the poor Lewis?? Shame on us all!

    :oD

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  14. adam payne

    After reading the accident report it seems to me they don't want to take any responsibility what so ever. They are firmly putting this one on the pilot.

    When the pilot apparently started the dive what is to say he hadn't lost consciousness already and the dive was a result of that.

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