back to article Moody's downgrades Nokia to near-junk status

Ratings agency Moody's has lowered its debt rating for Nokia to near junk status, and warned that the company is facing even tougher times ahead. In a note to investors today Moody's cut the world's largest mobile handset manufacturer's rating from Baa2 to Baa3, its lowest rating for investment grade stock. While the trigger …

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MIc

Re: I'll buy a Windows phone...

what does Symbian do the WP doesn't that you're holding out for?

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Re: I'll buy a Windows phone...

Well, do you have a couple of hours available and pen and paper....?

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MIc

Re: I'll buy a Windows phone...

NO. But we both appear to have a computer and we both seem to have access to the internet so get to the typing because it was an honest question. I actually want to know.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I'll buy a Windows phone...

Symbian - legendary battery life

Symbian - supports more hardware

Symbian - Belle looks and functions better than Metro turd tiles

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FAIL

As usual

As usual management f*cked up.

They thought they were smarter than everybody elsen that common sense and cause and effect didn't matter on their rosy planet.

Incompetence and arrogance often come together and they are a deadly combination.

Nokia = game over.

The sad thing is: there were people in the company that knew better.

But how do you call the lemming that warns for the cliff ahead?

A negative element in the group.

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Thumb Up

Actually quite like it

I switched from using an iPhone for three years to a Nokia 800. It was difficult at first, being so used to iOS but after a few weeks it really began growing on me and I have been happily using it for several months now. I will probably stick with Nokia / Windows for the foreseeable future. I am seriously considering going for the 900 when it becomes available.

If you get a chance to try one for any length of time its worth doing so, the Nokia Drive app is excellent and has replaced my TOM TOM and it plays m4v files so all my DVDs ripped for my iPad work fine were as previously I had to rip separate versions for iPad 2 and iPhone 3GS. The email client works great, especially with Exchange and the Office integration is fab.

My wife has an iPhone 4S but it no longer interests me. I am surprised as I was certain I would run back to the iPhone with my tail between my legs.

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MIc
FAIL

Re: Actually quite like it

I love the unbiased down votes in this joint. Some guy makes a reasonable statement bout his experience and it get a few thumbs down.

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Bronze badge
Meh

Re: Actually quite like it

I had to send my HTC Desire HD off for repair at the end of last year due to a hardware fault (speaker blown) and the only backup phones I had were a G1 and a Motorola Milestone. I took the opportunity to buy a second-hand Samsung Omnia 7 for £150 on fleaBay because I had been curious about WinPho7 and almost bought into it instead of Android when I got my G1.

I figured it wasn't a bad price for a fairly new handset with no marks on it and I got it within a week. Unfortunately, coming from Android I was used to being able to set things up my way, how I wanted and customising it to suit me and WinPho7 has very little in that department. The choices you seem to end up as, "pick one of these options", with no third-party customisation. Is that a bad thing? That depends on the user and what they want really. I can see the appeal in terms of simplicity and keeping things consistent through the phone experience but it won't be for everyone.

In the end I decided that it was a pretty good phone, my first experience of of Super AMOLED left a lasting impression, and the OS was ok but that it only had the potential to be more. Right now it feels like a lot of recent games - sell the core product and then add DLC / updates later. The only difference is the OS updates are free (to date). They need more functionality to attract customers, you can't sell minimalism as a feature when people are used to having tons of choice with Android and the shiny-shiny of Apple. Yes there will be people who it will appeal to but not in massive numbers.

Nokia hardware has generally been pretty good, it's the software side that has let them down since the N95 onwards and even that was a mess in terms of options hidden in menus within menus and more menus. Nothing was intuitive. I haven't owned or used an N8 so I can't comment but I hear a lot about how it was a fantastic camera and decent UI experience. It says a lot when I'll be looking to pick up a second-hand Nokia N8 over a Lumia and WinPho.

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Re: Actually quite like it

I agree that Brian is probably giving an honest account of his experiences. The downvotes are probably due to the suspicion that he is one of the legions of astroturfers in the pay of Microsoft. The problem is so bad on many web forums that any post with even tacit praise of Microsoft and their products will be down-modded.

Quite sad really, but you can only blame Microsoft for such marketing tactics that seem to be backfiring.

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Silver badge

Re: Actually quite like it

Do Microsoft really do pay people to say nice things about their products on random web forums? Isn't this just geek paranoia?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Actually quite like it

Have you ever heard of Waggener Edstrom? There is proof they have been doing it for Microsoft for some years - http://techrights.org/2008/08/03/microsoft-press-shills/.

Now Nokia is doing something similar, to try to present "popular" support for their lumia phones: http://mobile-review.com/articles/2012/birulki-160-en.shtml

So yes, it seems that it is more than just paranoia...

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JC_

@firefly

"the legions of astroturfers in the pay of Microsoft"

I have a sneaking suspicion that Barry Shitpeas is in the pay of MS as a double-agent - say completely stupid things often enough, always attacking WP7, and he just might convince people that MS is doing something good. As we've seen with the plan to insert Elop at Nokia, Redmond is that cunning...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Actually quite like it

And I love your not-too-subtle astroturfing shill antics for WP7.

Admit it, Windows/Microsoft is killing Nokia, and the turd ecosystem will never achieve anything substantial. Most people are making an informed decision and consciously avoiding Windows phones.

I hope the Finns sack Stephen Elop asap. He is a parasite and a cancer to Nokia.

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JC_

Re: Actually quite like it

"I love your not-too-subtle astroturfing shill antics for WP7"

Reading that on my HTC Desire is rather ironic...

Elop is a cancer? Take a deep breath and realise that Nokia is a mobile manufacturer, not your mum.

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MIc
Go

I'm actually long on Nokia stock

I'm watching that stock to see if we've hit the bottom. It made a bit of a rally today. Its really cheap and if MS and Nokia keep at it I think we'll see $9 before the end of the year. The lumia 900 is a very nice product (CES award, best seller on amazon and what not) and it's price competitive. Too early to jump in but I'm watching closely.

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fch
Headmaster

Re: I'm actually long on Nokia stock

So are you or aren't you ?

You start your post with "I'm actually long on Nokia stock", but finish it with "Too early to jump in but I'm watching closely". Sounds like either a very quick reaction to a turn in the markets, like someone having gotten cold feet over the writing of a forum post, or maybe just an enormous amount of confusion about Nokia taking its toll.

Anyway, good luck, you'll need it.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I'm actually long on Nokia stock

I think the ONLY people saying the Lumia is a nice product are also Nokia stockholders...

Anyone with a sane mind wouldn't be claiming ANY Windows Phone equipped handset is "nice".

This nicely sums up the problem thou, was whilst 99% of the population are calling these handsets out as being shit, and running a shit OS, there are a vocal minority of Nokia shareholders posting on forums like this, desperate to raise their stock value by making silly claims.

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MIc

Re: I'm actually long on Nokia stock

I currently have a few K in NOK. by "jump in" I meant 20K in NOK.

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Nokia and the Osbourne effect

Osbourne shot itself in the wallet by accidentally telling customers, "Don't buy our current model, the new one will be so much better." The Nokia variant is, "Don't buy our current model, it's a dead end product. By the way; our new line will be crap for 3 generations." It'll need deep pockets to pull out of that one.

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Silver badge

Re: Nokia and the Osbourne effect

This is something shareholders should be asking sharp questions about in the upcoming AGM.

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It's all relative

I am an avid Android user - getting a Nexus One 2 years ago from Google at the Linux Collaboration Summit, and I also have a Symbian Nokia N8 (my work phone - I am a senior engineer at Nokia), and a Series 40 C3-00 test phone. New employees in my division are getting Lumia 800 Windows phones. I have to say that I am impressed! I think MS and Nokia have done a lot very right with these phones. Are they going to be the smash hit Elop (and the rest of us) hopes? Only time will tell, but I think that new users or users upgrading from simple cell phones to smart phones will be very happy and productive with these devices.

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i think that's the thing...

loads of people on here spouting about it failing not being good - have you actually USED WP7 for any decent amount of time!?

I've had the Samsung Omnia 7 since the day they were released and now on the Lumia 800 - I am sticking with WP7/WP8.

Actually go and try it - you might think differently about iOS or Android!

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Mushroom

WP7? No thanks!

As WP7 can't do something as basic (which all my previous PalmOS, Win6 and current iOS phones can, as well as many Android) as sync via a reliable and secure USB cable with Outlook, why should I downgrade to it?

(Plus the UI looks like it's been designed for my gradmother by Fischer-Price!)

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Thumb Down

I've used it

I've been using it for some months - and it is crap. A garish interface that wastes a quarter of the screen just to show an arrow, a complete lack of flexibility and customization, lots of missing features that any other OS has, it is a complete failure.

Even if the perceived speed is nice, as soon as you realize that you have to be completely married to msft to use it, it is over. No USB mass storage, no uSD slot, no way to use properly a cloud storage other than skydrive (you can't sync photos automatically, for instance, you need to choose them by hand), a search button tied to bing, all that to force you to use only msft products.

Sorry, but my lumia has been relegated to second phone status - it is there only in case I get a call on my second number (which is from the country I lived in previously). As a "fancy" feature phone, it works. But the OS isn't really complete enough or flexible enough to be considered a smartphone OS.

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Anonymous Coward

People don't seem to get it

Once Windows 8 & Windows Phone 8 come out Microsoft and Nokia will be laughing all the way to the bank. The ability to sync and share information seamlessly between Desktop / Laptop and the smartphone will propel them ahead of Android and provide a viable alternative to all the people on here who foam at mouth with rage every time there is another iPhone article.

Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 is going to be the key. People won't be able to buy a new computer without Windows 8 and the familiarity of the computer with the smartphones in the shops will mean people start switching back to Nokia from the likes of Apple and HTC, Samsung

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FAIL

Re: People don't seem to get it

I can't remember the last time I connected my phone to a PC of ANY description - I'm not sure that is a valid point. With all sorts of 'cloudy' sync options, how can anybody think that the ability to tether a phone to a PC is a selling point?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: People don't seem to get it

As I say people don't seem to get it.

The beauty is you won't need to connect your phone. You add a bookmark on IE on Windows 8 and it appears on your Windows Phone 8 automatically. You install a Metro game on Windows 8 and it is automatically there for you on your phone for you to play. Your Documents are stored in Skydrive on the PC and suddenly they are on the phone ready for you to access. Changes on any device are seamlessly modified on the other.

It's got great potential it really has. As good as Android is Google are first and foremost an advertising company. I really don't get it you have people on here complaining about Fandbois and how Google is evil yet the same people then turn around and diss a genuine alternative to both of those companies?

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Re: People don't seem to get it

"The ability to sync and share information seamlessly between Desktop / Laptop and the smartphone will propel them ahead of Android"

If it worked then it might help them to catch up. The words 'Microsoft' and 'Sync' don't inspire confidence though.

Anyway, Android (and I assume iPhone) already instantly syncs everything you would reasonably want to appear on your phone. My calendar's synced across a laptop, two phones and a tablet and unlike any experience with Windows syncing has never given me a minute's trouble.

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Re: baa

Interesting rating I have to say actually. Quite apt for this place, so many f***ing sheep all bleating the same mince without actually realising what they are doing. Well programmed robot sheep.

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Windows

Re: Well programmed robot sheep

I take it they are not the Microsoft ones then?

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Re: People don't seem to get it

"You add a bookmark on IE on Windows 8 and it appears on your Windows Phone 8 automatically."

I add a bookmark in Opera, and it appears on my Galaxy S2 immediately.

"You install a Metro game on Windows 8 and it is automatically there for you on your phone for you to play."

I install an app with Google Play and it appears on my phone after a few moments.

"Your Documents are stored in Skydrive on the PC and suddenly they are on the phone ready for you to access. Changes on any device are seamlessly modified on the other."

Dropbox.

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Re: Well programmed robot sheep

They are the Microsoft ones, Apple, Android, Linux et al. They are the ones who see a rating downgrade from Moodys or S&P and go pulling their capital out of X category stock.

They are they people that believe that the definition of a good OS is the IOS. Because some flange reviewer on El Reg said so.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: People don't seem to get it

You don't get it.

Once Windows 8 & Windows Phone 8 come out I'll be laughing at YOU.

Here, I'll copy and paste your comment, just in case you delete it:

-----------------------------------

Posted in Moody's downgrades Nokia to near-junk status

Posted Tuesday 17th April 2012 07:19 GMT

Anonymous Coward

People don't seem to get it

Once Windows 8 & Windows Phone 8 come out Microsoft and Nokia will be laughing all the way to the bank. The ability to sync and share information seamlessly between Desktop / Laptop and the smartphone will propel them ahead of Android and provide a viable alternative to all the people on here who foam at mouth with rage every time there is another iPhone article.

Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 is going to be the key. People won't be able to buy a new computer without Windows 8 and the familiarity of the computer with the smartphones in the shops will mean people start switching back to Nokia from the likes of Apple and HTC, Samsung

-------------------------------

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Silver badge
Unhappy

I, for one

will miss Symbian / Nokia if they go under...

I've been a staunch nokia supporter for, oh, 15 years now and have no desire to swap (i do have an Android but reverted back to symbian as it doesn't snoop!).

The latest nokias have been cracking phones but this is an example of what happens when corporate morons with no idea get a foothold in the board room. They cant see past the bank balance.

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Anonymous Coward

"more challenging than expected"

By whom? Everyone outside of Nokia thought this was a bad idea.

"Embrace, extend, extinguish" They're only after the patents.

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Tomi Ahonen

"Nokia has just set a world record in suicidal self-destruction" - a fairly typical comment from Tomi, an ex-Nokia executive turned telecoms industry analyst. If you are interested in the smartphone landscape then Tomi is a must-read.

http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/

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Anonymous Coward

I really want the partnership to succeed because Nokia have a history of making decent phones and it would be a real shame to see the smartphone market dominated by two Valley neighbours.

There really needs to be a third way between the arrogance of Apple's "do it Steve's way, or not at all' walled garden of smug skeuomorphs and Android's fragmented hell of interoperability that makes developers run a mile.

The problem with Android is that CE vendors use it to do 80% of the hard work, but then add very little value. Samsung just slap on a thin layer of iOS design cues and in so doing, show absolutely zero imagination.

Winpho 7 promises to be the middle ground; a reasonably tight spec with a reasonable development environment (until they inevitably change it). Trouble is, until there's a signature app, I don't think people will flock to the phone, which means developers won't either. Vicious circle.

Its downfall though is that handset makers want to own the customer, but how can they do that if Microsoft control the UI? They can only do it by adding in their own apps which are rarely what users want. Punters want Instagram, not 'Samsung Readers Hub'.

I think the Windows name is a bad move too; it has too many associations with the desktop everyone loves to hate. Maybe they should call it, I dunno, Zune.

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Bronze badge

3rd way?

> There really needs to be a third way between the arrogance of Apple's "do it Steve's way, or not at all' walled garden of smug skeuomorphs and Android's fragmented hell of interoperability that makes developers run a mile.

So what are these BlackBerries sitting on my desk then?

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Anonymous Coward

Cheaper for Microsoft to buy and XBOX mobile on single platform?

The drop in Nokia share price might make Nokia an attractive acquisition for Microsoft.

This would make the Windows Phone and XBOX mobile platform vertically integrated, where, like Apple with their platforms, Microsoft own the complete solution. To complete this, I would suggest Microsoft might then end the licensing with other handset makers as these dilute their income.

Also, if, after being consumed by Microsoft, Nokia could sell off their legacy basic phones to Casio that would be nice. These older designs are still appreciated for their simplicity, low cost and long battery life.

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Silver badge

Re: Cheaper for Microsoft to buy and XBOX mobile on single platform?

Acquiring a company with $10bn in cash is no easy job.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Cheaper for Microsoft to buy and XBOX mobile on single platform?

When/if Microsoft acquires Nokia, it'll be at a fire sale price.

At the rate things are going, this day will arrive quite soon.

And then it's "Mission Accomplished." for the trojan horse Elop. Ballmer must be pleased.

I, on the other hand, hope the Nokia board sacks Stephen Elop and turn things around. I hope the good Nokia brand does not end up as another OEM bitch, a notch on Microsoft's belt.

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Vic
Silver badge

Re: Cheaper for Microsoft to buy and XBOX mobile on single platform?

> Acquiring a company with $10bn in cash is no easy job.

It's easier than you might think.

Nokia's market cap is currently a bit over $15B, so you need less than $8B to buy a controlling share.

Once you've got that share, you can decide what to do with that $10B.

IOW, if you've got strong enough credit, Nokia could buy itself for you...

Vic.

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Bronze badge

Wot no phones

Here in Dubai, Nokia is still peddling its pre-Windows phones. Still no sight of a Lumia release. So much for that great Nokia distribution network. One sales guy suggested it was lack of Arabic availability, but Acer have a Windows phone out here, so it isn't Microsoft's fault. Could be Nokia's own apps?

Either way, pretty poor showing. Apple gets new iphones out here pretty sharpish, and prices are comparable to elsewhere, and they have the apple store online. Well over a year since Nokia announced Windows Phone switch and still they're fluffing around with bits that aren't ready yet.

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Trollface

Re: Wot no phones

Does that Acer work in Arabic? It does not.

At least I *know* that the N9 supports Arabic (even though it may need a free, downloadable, keyboard). Ask Nokia why they aren't selling the N9!

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Thumb Up

"you could argue that..."

Nice to hear someone pointing out Moody's, S&P et al and their role in stoking the fires of the international finance collapse, and framing their decisions about shares in that light.

While downgrading Nokia doesn't have quite the same potential to being down world capital centres, I'd say that any company which was getting paid to rubber stamp garbage as AAA probably can't be entirely trusted to make balanced judgements about anything in the other direction either.

Top marks El Reg.

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Bronze badge

Moody's junk

Time, I think, to put Moody's (and the other rating agencies) on the junk list.

They failed spectacularly when it really mattered. Now they're just throwing their weight around, to show just how big a noise they can make.

It is ludicrous to dismiss Nokia as near-worthless. Sure, they've stumbled over the last few years, but, in a year's time, they might well be the biggest seller of Win8 phones. That might not mean as much as it once did, but it ain't peanuts.

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Anonymous Coward

Newsflash

Trojan horse Elop deliberately ruining Nokia so Microsoft can purchase it in a fire sale.

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