back to article Would you let your car insurer snoop on you for a better deal?

Having your driving style assessed by a back-seat black box of tricks sounds galling – but if it can shave money off your insurance premium, a beancounting firm reckons you'll put up with it. Particularly if you're an 18-year-old pimple-faced lad. The gadget-based insurance scheme rewards careful drivers with lower premiums, …

COMMENTS

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    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      I'll take that bet

      Because I don't think you can "do 40mph everywhere" without the occasional piece of hard braking as your uniform daydream meets up with the reality that not everyone else is doing 40mph everywhere.

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Yeah, Godwins, I know...

    When looking at extreme examples of 'normal' societies (think Nazi germany for example) I have often wondered how they morphed from being what was presumably a reasonable society into something 'clearly' abhorrent. Its natural to ask why the people didn't object, why they accepted it. I think the answer is the changes are made slowly, and often in an innocent or well intentioned manner ("Its for your own good").

    Voluntarily fitting technology like this to our vehicles seems to me like another step towards a dystopian world. Its a small step, maybe made with the best of intentions, but a step nonetheless.

    Also..

    I predict that even if your premium is lowered, in the event of needing a payout from the insurance company, they will trawl the data for every get-out clause case they can apply in order to avoid paying. Read the fine print well before installing it. ("We sympathise with your loss Mr Smith, however the black box clearly shows you were travelling at 31 mph in a 30 mph zone...")

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Happy

      Call me pedant...

      ... but if you are doing 31 in a 30 zone, and are involved in an accident, then the chances are your speeding is entirely or equally to blame (Don't blame me officer for doing 31, the other guy was doing 32!).

      Insurance companies already refuse to pay out if it can be proved that you were driving outside of the limits within the Highway Code.

      Personally I believe the lower premium should be offerred if you have a car that doesn't let you drive like a maniac in the first place. But I think that problem won't be solved by the boffins anytime soon, so I'll carry on driving down the pavements to avoid traffic jams on the roads.

      1. Elmer Phud

        Maniac?

        You don't need a fast car to drive like a twat.

    2. dr2chase

      You don't need to "wonder"

      There's history. It didn't start like this. I'm a lot more troubled (in the US) by anti-immigration laws that allow the police to harass you if you happen to "look like" an immigrant (from where? in whose opinion?) and aren't carrying your "papers".

      It's also interesting to me how the recent status quo is accepted as a great thing, and the change would be dystopian. Our use of cars is not cost-free, and they have enough externalities (pollution, hazards to other road users, wars and corruption associated with obtaining their fuel) that a "free market" approach to their use is not at all guaranteed to be welfare-maximizing.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Unhappy

        I'm also troubled by the changing laws on both sides of the pond, not especially by this one, but generally by the direction they are all going in.

        Negative changes, little by little over tens of years can transform a society. Taking the UK as an example I am most familiar with (having lived thru many of the changes), if the people of the UK enjoyed the *freedoms* that they were legally entitled to in the 70's, and a government were to come to power and attempt to implement the current status quo, there would be uproar. Cameras *everywhere*? Automated car numberplate tracking? Loss of the freedom to assemble (Public Order Act 1986)? Diplock Courts? Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act? Amateur police? Tasers?

        The USA has had similar negative changes, perhaps the most chillingly documented in the Bybee "Torture Memo".

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Good idea

    Calling it "snooping" immediately sets an uneccessarily negative perspective on it. I think it's a good initiative. It means that drivers who have invested in improving their driving, as well as long-term experienced drivers, will benefit more. Poor driving will be highlighted, giving the insurers a new market to address with incentives to improve. And driving overall would improve. What's not to like? I'd like to see black boxes installed in all vehicles by default.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Tracking won't be beneficial.

    it may be touted as enabling you to get savings but I think majority of us know that it will be used to get the customer a raw deal as always happens with the crooked insurance business.

    They will have all this data and you know that they will just pull up one little mistake from your record of largely good driving to invalidate your claim or your discount.

    Insurance is a con, and the industry wouldn't be interested in this technology if they couldn't make even more money from it.

  4. alain williams Silver badge

    Most people prob will

    Most of the facebook generation don't care about privacy until it is too late. The insurance companies will sell the information in some way (just as they currently pass on your details to car repair garages, etc) to make a few bob. Once most people do this then they can rack up the prices for the few who don't -- on the basis that those who think for themselves are probably trouble makers anyway.

  5. yoinkster
    Thumb Down

    Having just renewed my insurance ...

    I'm pretty confident that I'd never allow anything like this into my car. My insurance company have already shown themselves to be great fraudsters.

    My renewal came through at £780 and within two minutes of talking to them on the phone it was down to £710. Last year it was even worse, the renewal price was £950 and after a few minutes on the phone it was down to £770. So no, I would certainly never trust an insurance company to "inspect" my driving.

    How does their little black box know that my swerve wasn't to avoid a fox? How does their box know that that heavy braking wasn't an emergency stop because someone pulled out in front of me? Most things that happen on the road are outside of the driver's immediate control, most accidents only have speed, for example, down as contributing factor not as the sole cause. So I fail to see how this box is a good idea.

    Also, what's stopping dad driving little jonny's car for a week/month to get in some good stats?

  6. AndrueC Silver badge
    Thumb Up

    Yes I would. I think it should be optional but as an ex-member of the IAM I'm quite proud of my driving. I was a bit of a prat in my younger days but as I approached my 30s I calmed down. Anyway I've been driving for 25 years now and have never been a driver involved in a crash and have never been fined. Never even had a parking ticket.

    The closest I came was when I was driving my first car and was pulled over for a spot check because one headlight was out. The car was legal and after producing the MOT certificate at the police station that was that.

    So yes..I'd be happy to have my insurance company monitor my driving if it meant a discount :)

    1. IsJustabloke
      FAIL

      I CHOOSE to enoble a simple forum post!

      Actually, according to this -> http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/road-traffic/ web page driving a car with a defective headlight is an offence.

      So stick that in your smug pipe ;-)

      I am also an IAM qualified driving and its you leather elbowed / courdery jacket wearing types that make us *all* look and sound like twats. I am neitehr of those things.

      1. AndrueC Silver badge
        Thumb Down

        Yes, I know it's an offence that's why I mentioned it. I'll grant that it's therefore incorrect to describe the car as 'legal' but that's the only thing that was wrong with it and I think most people would accept that a failed headlight is a minor matter.

        As for attitudes:I wasn't being smug. I was just posting the facts and explaining why I would be happy to be sign up for the scheme. You on the other hand choose to make wild assumptions and resort to childish insults and foul language. That seems a curious choice for someone claiming (I think - hard to say based on your post) to be a member of the IAM.

  7. Elmer Phud
    FAIL

    Spherical, Plural

    When you pass your test, that's when you really start learning to drive.

    You begin to learn how your car actually works

    You go a bit too quick, corner too fast, brake too sharp etc. etc.

    By hamstringing young drivers they never really learn how to control a car, how to get out of a bit of a slide and are never going to learn how to manage screw-ups by themselves and others.

    It can't always be done on a track under controlled conditions.

    1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

      "By hamstringing young drivers they never really learn how to control a car, how to get out of a bit of a slide and are never going to learn how to manage screw-ups by themselves and others."

      If the device really does result in drivers never needing to go a bit too quick, corner too fast or brake too sharply, then it is the greatest single contribution to road safety ever.

      And last time I was in a live-endangering situation on the roads, there wasn't time to teach the other driver my skills, so it really wouldn't have made any difference whether I had them or not.

  8. Chronos
    Big Brother

    How long

    ...until this turns into standard premiums for the "withs" and inflated premiums for the "withouts"? It's inevitable.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Get The Aviva Deal!

    Aviva piloted the exact same thing only a few years ago for under 25's.. Is it still around? No, cause it wasnt making any money!

  10. Red Bren
    Trollface

    "A similar box of wireless instruments is being tested by healthcare firms, who want to use it with pensioners who want to carry on living"

    Inconsiderate coffin dodgers!

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Nice... not

    Next they'll come up with a radio pill that tells your health insurer if you've been having a few too many burgers, or a recreational drug here and there.

    Oh the future sounds luverly.

  12. Arctic fox
    Thumb Down

    "Would you let your car insurer snoop on you for a better deal?" F**k NO!

    No way for the very simple reason that the insurance companies will, if customers sit still for this, make it a condition of getting insurance at anything other than usurious premiums. In practice it amounts to putting the "spy in the cab" that lorry drivers have to accept (for a hold raft of reasons that do not apply to a private car driver - bit of a difference between driving a Ford Mondeo for a couple of hours a day and spending your entire working day a the wheel of a 32 ton "artic") into private cars without having to bother about inconvenient things like getting debated legislation through parliament and having to make/justify your case in the process.

  13. hplasm
    Meh

    How about making this mandatory for lorries?

    They already have tachographs, so not much problem in adapting to it?

  14. SirTainleyBarking
    Black Helicopters

    On the face of it

    It all sounds plausible, and a win - win situation for all concerned.

    However the same reasoning was put out for ID cards, so forgive my suspicion about this sort of tech

  15. miknik
    Boffin

    Interesting, but how does it work?

    Does it have its own sensors or does it slurp data from the vehicle CAN? If the former then I would expect the location of the box within the car would have an effect on certain readings and if the latter then the black box manufacturers would need to be privy to the algorhythms used by each vehicle manufacturer to calculate lateral acceleration, yaw rate etc along with information on their CAN protocols. I'm sure motor manufacturers aren't going to hand this data out to anyone who comes asking.

    To generate meaningful data you would also need input from the steering angle sensor and the wheel speed sensors as this will give a much clearer input as to what the car is doing in relation to the driver input rather than simply what the car is doing. For example if you live down a windy country lane then obviously you will swerve much more on your drive home than if you live on a straight road, regardless of beer intake and testosterone. Without knowing the steering angle and wheel speeds how do you tell if the car is cornering normally or if the driver is skidding round each corner with the wheel on opposite lock?

    The concept is a good one, but probably one which could be implemented much more effectively by licencing the technology to the vehicle manufacturers and letting them incorporate it into their existing electronic stability control units rather than trying to stick another box in the car.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      CAN-BUS

      Good luck trying to get it to work with CAN-BUS.

      CAN-BUS only specifies the electrical bus and the communication protocol itself.

      Vehicle manufacturers are free to implement whatever nodes and functionality they like (ie: there is no defined CAN-BUS node for a steering wheel angle sensor - not only does it vary between manufacturers, it often varies even between different models).

    2. trashbat

      OBD

      Most recent (post-2001 or maybe 2005) cars are compatible with some onboard diagnostic standard, either EOBD or OBD II. This gives you speed, revs and various other common metrics without too much proprietary hacking - alright, different standards but it's good enough to work with vehicle agnostic tools. In fact you can get a £10 dongle and £4 Android app and see for yourself.

      That combined with the kind of accelerometer seen in mobile phones would probably tell you as much as they're after. It would lack a few things you mention but approximates to the same thing in context - of course, it still misses out on most of the information a human observer would use.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        not all vehicles have OBD

        OBD is not an option for all vehicles, there are still a good number of vehicles on the road that do not have it in place, my own vehicle (2001 3.9 v8 rangerover) does not have it.

        I do wonder how these sensors would handle a vehicle like mine with regard to cornering since you get a lot more body roll.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    More totalitarian insanity

    So this week we have had

    - Initial work on mind control

    - Government announcement of mass censorship by the back door

    - Electronic spying being rolled out (cars initially, how long before its added to phones and then perhaps the populace in general through some means or other.....Capt Cyborg must be elated :/ )

    - Prime ministerial preference for lying over truth (May Vs Clarke)

    - Further incidents of Tory Sleaze

    - Mary Whitehouse V2 - Mothers Union getting Tory support.....Heading into a corporate theocracy??

  17. Ian Halstead
    Childcatcher

    Young drivers eh? Also include this...

    ....a device that disables the sound system whilst any windows are open.

  18. Paul Crawford Silver badge
    Unhappy

    Sad

    "It's the sort of thing that ages ago we used to call friends and family"

    Somehow, that statement alone is sadder than the whole intrusive nature of the insurance business they are getting in to.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Depends on how many variables and if it's based on a kind of AI system.

    If it just looks and says you're going over the speed limit too much then it's useless.

    If it can also take into account the weather, time of day, traffic levels and then compares with other drivers doing similar things to see if you are more/less likely to crash then it's less bad.

    But then it is just road pricing though the back door if we have PAYD insurance they can just move the fuel tax onto that instead as a %.

    As it isn't one uber government database then it's less creepy but still not sure if it's a great idea.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I don't willing let anyone snoop on me. And I've seen some inducements to throw away my privacy in my time, this is just another.

  21. Unknown Error
    FAIL

    Any provision lowering the premium paid by the customer usually decreases the scope of the cover or releases the insurance company from some obligations. This turns out to be tricky in the most unwanted circumstances. Having a history of driving collected automatically gives an insurer a legal weapon to excuse themselves from ANY liability in the court. You can be always portrayed as a careless driver with a long, recorded history of exceeding speed limits etc. Jury won't be happy to see your history of friving. They would not be happy even to see their own driving history.

  22. Nick Ryan Silver badge

    Oh dear...

    So we're back to the same old "speed, speed, speed" is everything about a driver.

    Doing 40 mph EVERYWHERE (as previously observed above) is just deadly. 40 straight through a 50mph (limit) zone, then 40 straight through the 30 mph zone, then 40 past the school... and so on.

    As is nonchalantly pootling up an ACCELERATION LANE onto a motorway or other fast moving road at 40 mph and having a long line of cars behind you. Then pulling obliviously onto the motorway and causing whatever unfortunate driver is in the inside lane to slow down massively or swerve to stop ramming the rear of the car.

    Then of course there is the trick of driving at 30mph... 5 inches behind the fecking car ahead of you.

    Slowing down massively when there is an oncoming car... on the other side of a two lane road.

    Having no fecking clue whatsoever about what lane to be in around a roundabout. The hint is in the name - you go ROUND it, not straight over it cutting lanes as you do. And the inside (left hand) lane is not the lane to choose when going right.

    But other than these minor problems... tracking speed will, of course, detect the bad drivers and punish them appropriately </sarcasm>

    1. Filippo Silver badge

      Couldn't agree more

      Every single time someone hit me, everyone involved was going very slowly. I'm sick and tired of driving safety being reduced to speed. There are a gazillion other factors, many of which are way more important. The only reason everyone harps on speed is that it's EASILY MEASURED, which makes it really handy for grabbing revenue from fines. You can't easily fine someone for driving while sleepy, for cutting through a roundabout, for tailgating on the motorway, for blocking the fast lane or for giving more attention to their chat with the passenger than to the road - so we pretend that it doesn't matter, as long as they do so under the speed limit.

    2. Cowardly Animosity
      Happy

      Do you live in Suffolk too?

  23. Ogi
    Go

    I didn't take this offer..

    There are insurers who offer this already. I am in the "under 25's" section, a male, and have my license for about a year now.

    The initial car I bought was a VW Polo 1.0L from 1998, and insurance was about £1300/yr for it. Some insurers (like Tesco) offered me a lower rate (about £900/yr) if I agreed to install a GPS Tracking device. When I asked what it does they told me the following:

    * It is installed in the engine bay, and hooks into the ECU

    * It measures speed, throttle position, acceleration, location and time

    * It sends this to the insurer (they didn't specify how, but I presume via mobile network)

    The insurer would then adjust me premiums based on how risky I drive, how much I drive, and when I drive (apparently driving on Friday night incurs higher premiums). To me it sounds like this tech has already been around a while, although I'm not sure if the one they offered me provided g-forces logging.

    I wasn't given the ability to view the contents of the GPS device, no phone/web app to interact with it, so I guess that's a new feature of this system.

    I can't tell you how it would have turned out, as I didn't take the offer up. Turns out that if I got an older car, I could get classic car insurance. So sold the VW and ended up buying a 1982 sports couple, and my insurance is £300 a year! The low insurance more than makes up for the fact the 2.5L engine used more fuel, and no need for any kind of tracking device. So I'm happy.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Happy

      Porkies perhaps?

      Age, Car, Estimated Mileage and 3rd party or fully comp please

    2. Steven Raith
      Joke

      what insurer?

      Ogi, what insurance company did you get the classic cover with? I'm a 29 year old who's had his license for 18 months, been driving for work daily since passing, and i'm paying £600 to insure a Micra.

      When I was looking at classic , I could only get it on a second car, not my main car...are you only running the classic? I wouldn't mind a BMW E30 325i wagon as a weekend/workhorse car...

      Steven R

      Joke Alert, because that's what my premiums are. A joke.

      1. Rob Daglish

        Gonna really upset you now - Adrian Flux insure my 6.2 litre V8 Rolls Royce for £129 per year, unlimited mileage and any driver over 25.

        I wanted to insure an MX5 as a weekend/nice weather car they wanted around £700 per year for that as I can't get classic insurance on it, and as my day to day insurance for a 2.2Diesel Jagdeo is in the region of £700 I'm going to sell it an buy an old XJS convertible...

      2. Ogi

        Sorry, didn't realise I had to actually respond to your post directly. My post is here if you're still interested: http://forums.theregister.co.uk/post/1198280

        1. Steven Raith
          Thumb Up

          thanks

          Cheers Ogi, that makes for interesting reading.

          It's now a case of finding something classic that won't kill me on running costs and that I'd trust to take me 600 miles in a weekend without dropping it's guts on the A1M at 80mph (in 2013, officer).

          Time to cruise Auto Trader and Piston Heads Classifieds....again!

          Steven R

          PS: good choice on the 944, mate had one, we had a memorable trip from Reading to Anglesey, including some sideways time on track, lovely cars....

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Classic Car Insurance

      Thats great, unless theres a low annual mileage restriction? usually 4000 miles or less per year? Check the assorted paperwork, it could be in there somewhere. Thanks to the FSA extras!

  24. Skoorb
    WTF?

    Already happens - a few years old

    This is old news, apart from another company piling in.

    Here's a list of some of the current offerings:

    http://www.comparethebox.com/

  25. Jean Le PHARMACIEN
    Headmaster

    Ogi:"buying a 1982 sports couple"

    Wow! Is the 300 squid"'viewing" or for "participation" in the sports??

  26. Alan Brown Silver badge

    Cars already have black boxes

    The airbag units record quite a bit of information including near deployments, etc.

    Insurers and police have been known to use the data to decline payouts or in prosecutions - in one case I can think of a driver was convicted of dangerous driving after the airbag unit recorded the car was travelling in excess of 100mph in the minutes before the crash.

    When you make a claim the car is handed over to the insurers - at that point they can do what they want with the data.

    The online monitoring units are only useful inasmuch as drivers are aware they're being monitored and adjust accordingly. They could just as easily be a lump of wood as long as the driver believes it's an electronic box of tricks.

  27. Eddie Edwards
    Thumb Down

    No

    To answer the tagline, no, because if my insurer knew how I drove he would charge me more, even though I have 8 years no claims.

  28. Armando 123
    FAIL

    Would you let your car insurer snoop on you for a better deal?

    The short answer is "No". The long answer is "*#$% no!!!"

  29. Spider
    Big Brother

    thin end of wedge

    whilst I understand the need for youngsters to find ways of both lowering premiums and encouraging safer driving, how long before it permeates? people get used to it, so instead of lowering premiums, people without them become penalised. Finally a majority have them fitted and of course they become justified because they save childrens lives (please think of the kiddies!)so then they become mandatory and the final step is that the data becomes available to the authorities... obviously with a warrant.. well to begin with anyway, but you know, the companies operating license is up for renewal and have you been helpful to the plod?...

    .. i'll get my foil lined coat.

  30. Paul Landon
    Thumb Down

    Taken Down And Used Against You

    This is an example of injustice where the slurped data would be used against you but rarely used in your favour.

    It could be used as an excuse not to pay out. eg. "You were doing 71mph at the time of the accident!".

    Insurance companies are like Bookmakers but welch on their bets more often.

  31. secondtimeuser

    I'm already on this insurance.

    I'm already on the Co-operatives Implementation of this insurance. Some background info:

    - 23y/old male

    - 3yrs no claims bonus (ie, no claims since starting driving)

    - Skoda Fabia estate, 1.2, no modifications, 54 plate.

    - I pride myself on not driving like a tool. I stick to speed limits, I corner smoothly, I accelerate gently and brake responsibly. Compared to most of my contemporaries, I can probably be called a pretty good driver.

    Had been with Aviva, insurance premium had gone up from £550 to £820 (fully comp). Direct Line wanted £790. Tried some price comparison jobs, premiums ranging from £900 to £16,000 (yes, that many zeroes). Co-op Young Driver Policy? £440.

    Yes, that few zeroes.

    So, bit more digging, decide to take the plunge and go for it. Chap came round to install the box at my flat, so plus points for that. It's actually about the size of a standard HDD, buried in the dashboard.

    I've got an online interface that shows my scores for the last 30 days (and I've made a spreadsheet logging all of my scores). The four parameters measured are Speed, Acceleration and Braking, Cornering and Time of Day. These are unevenly weighted, by my maths Speed and Time of Day have a relative weight of 0.3ish, Accn/Brk and Cornering 0.2ish. You also get an overall score for each day.

    My main gripe is a lack of consistency. Monday to Friday I'm doing the same journeys at the same times of day, and while everything else is fairly consistent, my cornering score can go anywhere between 2.6 and 5 (out of 5). Also, cornering score seems to nose-dive on any journeys with a motorway-motorway junction (think M5/M42 junction, if you know it) - almost seems as if it wants you to shed a load more speed, even if you cruise round it at a very sedate 45mph-ish. There also seem to be some roads that are just impossible to get a good cornering score on too, such as the A48. If I went any slower round the corners it would be dangerously slow, and yet the best cornering score I've got is 3.5ish.

    Time limitations can be a pain too, though I so rarely drive between 11pm and 6am I just suck up the poor score for that day.

    As for unexpected events, emergency stops are filtered out. Came round a blind corner on a country lane to find a car reversing in front of me, 50-0mph in as short a time as possible and my accn/brk score for the day was still 4.8. It's only repeated heavy braking that will do you over.

    After 3 months use I got a £53 rebate on my insurance, essentially taking my premium down to £390, which blows away every other off I found. Shall be getting my next premium adjustment in a couple of weeks time.

    Overall I'd recommend it, but only if you're a legal beagle when it comes to speed limits and only if night driving is an extreme rarity.

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