back to article 'Satnavs are definitely not doomed', insists TomTom man

With satnav companies announcing revamped apps all over IFA Berlin, you'd be forgiven for thinking that moving onto smartphones and tablets was the game plan for a market that has seen sales plummet in the last few years. TomTom, Garmin and Navigon all saw fit to use the show to announce their updated-in-various-ways apps, …

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  1. mark 63 Silver badge

    This is why I dont need a watch

    This is why I dont need a watch, theres a clock on my phone, and on the screen i stare at most of the day, and in my car , and on the box under my telly, and in the pub.

    But on my phone is the point. I no longer need a watch.

    I'm surprised the mp3 player market hasnt gone the same way for the same reasons - execpt that apple seems to have pulled off the greatest magic trick in the world and brainwashed everybody into thinking the only way to use mp3 is with the i-thing

    1. bazza Silver badge

      @Mark 63

      I like my watch to work when my mobile battery goes flat...

      You're right about the mp3 player market, hardly anything decent still on the market. I'm still using an ancient iRiver iHP-120 in the car, still works very well indeed, and the little cable remote control is just perfect - don't need to look at it even. Much better than fumbling around with a crappy touchscreen on a smartphone. Two headphone jacks (surprisingly useful, you can have great fun with a pal in an airport departure lounge listening to rude songs sniggering away without anyone else being able to hear), loads of different codecs, optical line in/out, FM radio (Apple still don't put radios in theirs, do they? Why? I mean, why oh why oh why do the f*****g idiots not just put a damned 5cent fm radio chip in their goddamn shiny toys? How long can a fit of pique over them not thinking of it first go on for?).

      Anyway, I digress. Apple's success has really lowered people's expectations of what they think is technically achievable. It's no longer really commercially feasible for other manufacturers to push out superior products because not enough people understand the benefits of the technology anymore. Form is now more important than function.

      Isn't it time for the competition authorities to take a serious look at Apple's dominant position before satnav is reduced to nothing more than an eBook atlas?

      1. Fogcat

        iRiver

        Still using an H140 here (upgraded to 60gb and rockbox-ed) and haven't found anything better yet for the car. Does anyone apart from Apple make high capacity *music* players any more?

    2. Pete 6
      Mushroom

      The title is required, and must contain letters and/or digits.

      I tried using my phone as an MP3 player, but the hissy output, meagre storage and crap battery life are somewhat of a disadvantage.

      I'll stick with my old 160GB ipod. As much as I'd like to get something else (as the battery is now a little ropey, it used to be fantastic, but it is nearly 5 years old) there's nothing that does the job as well. Shame itunes is such a bloated pile of slow garbage.

  2. Rick Brasche

    only reason I haven't purchased a dedicated satnav recently...

    ...is because my 4 year old satnav still works perfectly. All I do is update the maps every year or so. When it dies, then I'll replace it. Hopefully there will still be a motorcycle-specific model like the Zumo available then.

  3. Dr Trevor Marshall
    FAIL

    I still keep my IPAQ alive to run its TomTom software app

    That's the only thing my IPAQ does these days. Run several-years-old maps and TomTom on Windows CE. With the "Austin Powers" voice. Come on TomTom, give me the app on Android before I decide to switch to something else...

  4. durandal
    Windows

    I swear

    My satnav is out to kill me. First it directs me into an EDL 'static demonstration', the next thing I know, I'm half an hour round the south circular! Laugh? I nearly bought an oyster card...

  5. heyrick Silver badge

    My experience...

    Motorola Defy - takes between five seconds and several minutes to get a lock. Once it has, it works well with Google Navigate. I've only tried it a few times (as a passenger, I prefer to use a paper map), but it seems fairly accurate and gives warnings in good time. My only complaint would be the phrase "continue straight" (i.e. don't turn) which is a little non-obvious in situations where the road bends and going literally straight is wrong (surprisingly common on country roads).

    The camera analogy is bogus. While my phone has a reasonable 5mpx camera, I've seen some with dreadful cameras. My phone's suffers from wanting to focus in under a second and it doesn't always get it right. There is no control of white balance. Macro is lame. Zoom is digital, not optic. You can't push the exposure into seconds for night photography. The LED flash is cool as a torch, but it isn't so hot as a flash as the imager just lacks sensitivity. In other words, it provides adequate pictures, but it isn't a digital camera. By contrast, a phone with navigation app can guide me from A to B... You might say it is lower quality, but then so is driving it in a Citroen instead of an Audi...

  6. Alex King
    Meh

    Meh

    CoPilot on my iPhone comfortably outperforms the one built into my '57 Jag, in terms of speed, reception and usability. I've never seen any TomTom or similar standalone device that would persuade me to upgrade from my £20 app. It multitasks with the phone or the music player.

    Contrary to an earlier poster, nobody does (or should) give two hoots about gain, antenna patterns or whatnot. If it works, is easy to use and does the job then that's the point.

  7. Clive Harris
    Happy

    Map and compass!

    Learn to navigate with a map and compass. They never break down and could save your life one day.

    I went off GPS after a bad experience flying a light aircraft to a small island off the coast of Australia. About 30 miles out to sea the (aircraft-grade) GPS packed up on me without warning. The ADF (radio-nav) had already died and radar cover is virtually useless in those parts, so I was left with just a map and the aircraft's compass, surrounded by an awfully big ocean. Fortunately I knew how to use them, and found the island, and its airfield, without difficulty.

    Don't rely on modern gadgets. You never know when they'll let you down.

  8. Stephen Bouvier
    WTF?

    A bit of a right to reply ...

    Just a few comments to maybe update the chap from TomTom on what a real-world former customer of his is doing ...

    "Just because you have a camera on your phone doesn't stop you from buying a digital camera."

    Actually, it did. My Android phone takes perfectly usable pics and even comes with an app that allows me to add all manner of effects -- lomo effect and so on -- at the press of a thumb.

    Yes, I agree, that satnav on a mobile is not exactly brilliant, but nor has been my experience of TomTom. Software on my first unit back in 2007 fell over so often that John Lewis gave me a refund. My fondest memory of crashing system software was in a snow storm near Eindhoven at around midnight ... Oh, and why was TomTom never able to satisfactorily do a temporary update to its maps of those roadworks? They were rather enduring ...

    I bought a 940 LIVE back in 2009. Apart from the hassle of having to lock subscriptions to an account, double charging for subscriptions, and a unit that had to be returned for replacement, what really made my p**s boil was the way TomTom suddenly segmented my 2Gb Europe-wide map coverage into four separate downloads. Great move if you plan to drive from the UK to Eastern Europe a lot.

    But issues of overall customer service apart -- although they did try quite hard, and they do employ intelligent customer support people -- what has really done for satnav long-term is the fact that it has really reached a developmental brick wall.

    I want a device that gets me from A to B with live updates and camera warnings. I now have that. What else is there left to develop but a newer or shinier casing? A better screen? Isn't it the case that product development has reached such a point that the customer has fallen out of the need-to-upgrade cycle?

    You could call it the Windows XP problem: it's not brilliant, and there are arguments against keeping it, but it does what I want.

    Oh, and the reason why TomTom won't have me back as a hardware customer for a few years is that when I get sick of one manufacturer, I simply try out another. You are all selling me-too products, and as a dimwitted consumer I am struggling to differentiate.

  9. bazza Silver badge

    @Alex King

    "Contrary to an earlier poster, nobody does (or should) give two hoots about gain, antenna patterns or whatnot. If it works, is easy to use and does the job then that's the point."

    Except that if you as a consumer wanted to choose between them based on GPS reception performance that is the information you need. Without it all you can do is pick one at random.

    This forum has many people saying that they've suffered GPS drop outs. When someone is lost in a city with no GPS reception they do care. Shame they didn't think about that when they were buying it in the shop.

    But because the industry is effectively silent on the matter there is no commercial pressure. Sure, it works quite a lot of the time but we would all like it to work better.

    TomTom certainly used to care - my ancient old TomTom easily out performs any phone I've ever seen in terms of GPS signal reception. When you're driving around the Peripherique and motorways in Paris through all those half obscured almost-tunnels you really don't want a GPS drop out; you will miss your exit! My TomTom hasn't let me down yet, but every phone I've seen packs in at the first hint of overhead obscuration.

  10. tony
    Happy

    A Title,

    Always enjoy stories like this when people can angrily extrapolate out their anecdotes and pretend it's "data".

  11. alexhoskins
    Facepalm

    Tom Tom useless for me

    I live in a little enclave in east London, a bunch of streets enclosed by no entry signs and traffic calming measures. I broke both my legs last year and spent a few months being ferried in and out of various hospitals by ambulance.

    All the ambulances used Tom Tom. None of them could navigate successfully to my door, and I had to direct them personally! All I can say is I'm glad it wasn't an emergency...

    The Tom Toms had updated maps, the no entry signs have been in place for the best part of 10 years and this is in Zone 2, on the borders of Central London. If I owned a Tom Tom I would want my money back.

    Co-Pilot Live on my iPhone finds my house fine and apart from very occasionally losing it's GPS fix for a few seconds does it's job perfectly well for my purposes. If you gave me a standalone GPS I'd give it away.

  12. jubtastic1
    FAIL

    Navfree on the AppStore

    Spoken turn by turn, doesn't require Internet access, reroutes on the fly, you can't beat the price.

    It's the proverbial headlamp of an oncoming train Mr Tom

  13. Onid
    FAIL

    tomtom? no tom ...

    First tomtom was a 700 model(500squid).. Was interested in HD traffic so bought the 720 which was supposed to be able to handle HD with an optional power adapter that would be made available when HD traffic was brought to the UK. The adapter never materialised and generally was happier with the 700. So I sold it..Later got the 750 but found it's interface a bit toyish and HD traffic which finally was on it was a bit naf to be honest. Seems all those negotiations with councils and what not as to how to redirect traffic ended up crippling the system. Worst thing on both 720 and 750 (and all in between) the compass stopped showing heading and distance to target. This the 700 still does and is invaluable - I use it to ignore the map and just follow the needle guessing which roads to take when seeking alternates if there's too much traffic on selected roads. I can't believe they removed that... Sold the 750 a couple of months after I bought it. The 700 doesn't have the hotfix data to assist in cold starting it but I managed to score an external gps antenna on it (which u can't fit on 750 apparently or most of the newer ones even!). Net result in use the 700 has a better fix than the new ones as gets better reception.

    Not buying a new tomtom that's for sure... next one will probably get if I need one will be the nuvi range - some interesting features there... but would love it if could integrate gps with car data - maybe plug in to obd data from the engine management!!.

    As for using camera phones instead of proper cams? seriously?? I have an old fuji finepix 2800z something (2.0 Megapixels with a 6 X optical zoom ) it's old it's no big winner in megapixels race but takes far better pictures than ANY camera phone bar none.(I'll challenge any phone and any MPs) I have an N95 and seen the crap the iphones take and all other phones.. Some of the photos look like the ccd is just dabling with a paintbrush the rgb elements in a vague general direction of where they should be. Chromatic aberration is just crazy on them and the sensor noise.. oh the sensor noise... by the time you finish cleaning up in photoshop you are left with less than 1 Megapixel even if the cam supposedly an 8MP. Absolute crapola. I want to upgrade my camera now to the HS10 (prosumer with fixed but decent lens).

    OK I do take photography as a bit of a serious hobby (still have old film SLRs which pretty much wipe the floor of any digital cam though it is inconvenient to be dealing with film and not seeing what you shot instantly is a major drawback). Seems to me all our gadgets are converging to crap all the time. Can probably now afford hasselblad large format cams from the film area!! though they are being adapted with sensor plates though still so maybe not just yet.. but regular 35 mm film SLRs they are now at incredible prices!! (wondering if can mount old film SLR accessories to new digital versions with a bit of gaffer tape!!!)

    I guess it's never been truer "they don't make 'em like they used to" heh..

  14. Tegne
    Gimp

    I got me a Nokia N8

    12MP with carl Ziess optic camera with Xenon flash - Don't need a seperate digital camera. Ovi Maps preinstalled where I can pre-download up to date maps from any country for free (or on the fly if necessary), live traffic reporting, speed cameras and most of the usual gubbins you'd expect from a sat-nav including customisable voices (you can even use your own voice!). And when I was on holiday in New York was able to use it to navigate to all the landmarks too. All this will be coming to Winmo 7 with the Nokia/Microsoft deal... Shame it's not Android.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What?

    "Just because you have a camera on your phone doesn't stop you from buying a digital camera."

    Of course it does. I might still be buying SLRs but I haven't brought a "pull out of your pocket at the party point and shoot" style camera in 10 years.

    Bonus thumb ups for unintentional alliteration, please.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    +1 for phone apps

    Not having tried with more than one device at once, how many devices can connect to a bluetooth audio interface simultaneously?

    In today's world, you have to be "hands free" for your phone by e.g. using bluetooth.

    If you can only have one bluetooth connection, this precludes a standalone satnav using the connection too.

    I find it quite handy that the same bluetooth connection can do the phone calls AND also relay the messages from the satnav app telling me to "turn around where possible" over the ICE speakers.

    Plus, of course, like many, my phone has my list of contacts and access to my email and calendar for the address of where I'm going to....

    Also gets over the problem of not being able to hear the instructions over the car noise / audio output. It doesn't however necessarily make it loud enough to be heard over the screaming of the passengers :)

    As others have pointed out, satnav apps like CoPilot Live have maps of your chosen region on the SDcard. Also it has "live traffic" (which it retrieves from the internet - so that needs a data connection) for the route and offers alternative routing to get around bottlenecks.

  17. Joe Montana

    The low end...

    There were systems announced a while ago to USE gps to enforce speed limits, and to charge road tax or insurance based on what roads you drive on...

    "The antenna is inadequate in really bad weather. I drove up last Friday night and in a torrential downpour it kept losing accuracy. Several times it had me on a minor road running alongside the M40 instead of the M40 itself."

    The lack of accuracy could be a problem, driving down the motorway at 70mph and your gps suddenly thinks your on a small adjacent minor road and slows you down to 30mph... I believe it might actually be illegal to drive so slowly on the motorway, because it's certainly very dangerous.

    As mobile phones do more, so they will render obsolete individual devices that offered the same functionality...

    Pagers

    Low end cameras

    PDAs

    Electronic organisers / address books

    And now it looks set to replace lowend GPS devices, although i imagine there will still be a smaller market for higher end ones and specialist (bike/truck) units.

    What i would like to see however, is a universal phone dock standard which could be used in cars....

    Consider a standard cable/cradle which combines HDMI, USB, Power, Audio in/out, Antenna... You get in the car, drop your phone into the dock...

    Larger GPS/GSM antenna on the roof of the car for improved reception (esp at speed)...

    Your audio routed through the cars speakers.

    The in car microphone routed to your phone.

    Steering column controls connected to the phone.

    Phones display routed to the in-dash screen, where you can use the GPS.

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