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back to article London rioters should 'loose all benefits'

Amid angry calls for UK rioters to face plastic bullets, water cannon, the Army, a spell in the Army, jail or all of the above, comes this e-petition demanding that the feral youth of Britain be stripped of their state hand-outs. Or rather, it insists that convicted public disorder offenders "loose all benefits", which we …

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FAIL

RE: Changes of employment

I used to do contracting, and one of the downsides is you can sometimes go between contracts. During those times you may wander down to your local Job Center (or whatever they call them today) and mingle with the professionally unemployed. Yes, I mean the deliberately unemployed. Whilst there are plenty of people between jobs and looking for work, there are also plenty looking for every excuse to avoid it and just live off benefits. They are usually deckled out in branded clothing, wearing expensive watches and wavin ground mobile phones. I was astounded at some of the conversations I overheard the last time I visited a Job Center, including advice on how to flunk an interview, fake disabilities, and scam benefit inspectors. There are plenty of jobs out there, there are just also plenty of people that seem to believe they are due a free ride off the hard work of others. The problem is we still let the workshy vote, so the politicians won't ever bring in real measures to deal with them.

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Hang on!

Can't they at least have Radio 4?

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Anonymous Coward

Immeterial

The site is down/slow/throwing bogons again :(

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Alert

Hmmmm

Whilst I have no sympathy for these idiots, taking any benefits they receive (although primary school teachers earn wages) will only force them into committing crime, since they will be reduced to crime or starvation.

The idiots need to be punished, but I think we should leave that to the courts.

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Courts?

Because they have demonstrated a rational response: 6 moths for a bottle of water? 4 years for inciting riot (while the hook did it every day for years with no penalty) that had no discernible effects, while MPs simply walk away from stealing from public coffers via expenses? I think the example to the public has been set at the highest levels.

And it was not just the unemployed taking part, there were educated, employed people, joining in the frolics.

Excusing them? no not in the least, but with everything else that has been happening I find it difficult to condemn outright.

The more I think about it the greyer it gets.

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Gotta sympathize

A guy who tried to steal my car had been on the dole five years and continued to get benefits after he got out of jail. I, on the other hand, had to burn two vacation days to appear in court. That seems out of kilter.

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Trollface

Who wants to play Fuck Civil Liberties Bingo?

(From a friend)

Also known as I Don't Care About The Consequences Just Make Those Baddies Go Away... a point for everything you spot on Twitter/ Facebook/ chat site of your choice.

1) Call in the Army

2) I'm so proud that racist thugs are patrolling the high street to 'defend the community'

3) Shut down the Internet

4) Shut down the mobile phone networks

5) Blame the mothers

6) Ban violent videos/ computer games

7) Ban gangsta rap (even though saying this proves you are old as gangsta rap now unfashionable with the yoot)

8) Have a curfew

9) Multiculturalism isn't working

10) At least everyone's stopped fussing about Murdoch and phone hacking

11) Let the Police use Rubber Bullets

12) Bring back National Service

13) Bring back the Birch

14) Bring back the Stocks

15) Bring back the Death Penalty

(burned down) HOUSE!

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Facepalm

Thats the

daily mail version

An no I dont want to see the guardian reader's version

Oh and the Vulture Bunker is easy to find..... The Winchester... so long as that gun above the bar is real

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Mushroom

16) Escape from London

Build a wall round the Isle of Sheppey, hoover up the scum, dump them and leave them to it.

As a bonus, it might actually improve Sheerness.

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FAIL

#Fail

Since when was Rioting a civil liberty?

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Agreed

Nice list of suggestions.

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Black Helicopters

Monitor has brown liquid dripping down it

As I was waiting for tonight's helicopter spotting (I live near the Blues ground in Birmingham which is on a slight rise and affords a 270 degree view of the city centre) I read this and deposited most of a mug on the (purchased and paid for) LCD.

As a housing association tenant, can I remind everyone that I have a legally binding tenancy agreement that has clauses covering antisocial behaviour but limited to immediate neighbours? Salford Housing managers appear to have forgotten about the law. See the BBC twit feed for 1733. We have housing officers reviewing CCTV footage. Since when did they become judge, jury and bailiff? Madness.

Seriously, as I'm addressing a group of puzzle solving challenge accepting types of higher than normal intelligence, PLEASE have a look at

http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/

and cogitate.

Black helicopters because that is what you'll get if you let the tabloids dictate the response.

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Most stupid, some reasonable

5) Blame parents. Why not? Shouldn't they shoulder a decent proportion of the blame? Why was their 11-year old out at 3am?

8) Have a curfew. Would have helped, actually. As the police said, there were huge problems caused by people hanging around watching. Having a curfew doesn't mean those out are shot dead, you know.

9) Multiculturalism isn't working. I thought this was accepted knowledge now.

12) Bring back National Service. Why is this such a ridiculous idea? Compulsory education to 18, then for 18-21 you either are at university, in an apprenticeship, or join the army? While there you pick up qualifications, learn to actually show up for work and do things, and so on. Germany still has National Service, and their civil liberties seem fine.

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Facepalm

Improve Sheerness?!?

Impossible!

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National Service

Sorry, Germany just abolished National Service. Our civil liberties are still fine though.

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FAIL

@Since when was Rioting a civil liberty?

Fail yourself, because you missed the bit that says "I Don't Care About The Consequences Just Make Those Baddies Go Away"

Too many people are willing to say "Fuck Civil Liberties" as soon as any trouble breaks out and they're happy to come up with lists like that which will "solve" the problem.

The fact that what that will leave after may be *worse* doesn't seem to occur to them. (Remember ID cards et al? What if we had them now? Would the Rioters be carrying them? Should the Police stop *everyone* on the streets and check them for ID cards and arrest *anyone* who doesn't have one, even if you've just popped down to the shops, come back to find trouble has kicked off and you forgot to pick up yours??)

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Big Brother

@DavCrav

"5) Blame parents. Why not?"

How many of the rioters are 11?

"8) Have a curfew. Would have helped, actually."

Right, so have a curfew where anyone on the street is an automatic suspect and is rounded up and arrested. Great for all those people trying to go about their lawful business without let or hindrance.

"9) Multiculturalism isn't working. I thought this was accepted knowledge now."

Only in the Daily Mail.

"12) Bring back National Service. Why is this such a ridiculous idea? [...] Germany still has National Service"

If you hadn't noticed (of course you hadn't or even bothered to check, you'd know that a) German National Service was only compulsory for men and b) They stopped it as of July 2011. Oh and c) German civil liberties *aren't* fine because they have restrictions on freedom of expression, data retention laws and monitoring of the senders and recipients of e-mails, phone calls and other electronic communications.

Still, judging from your comments, you probably think that that's a perfectly acceptable situation...

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Go

hmm

"We have housing officers reviewing CCTV footage. Since when did they become judge, jury and bailiff? Madness"

I dont disagree with your sentiments; however the contract you signed as a tenant is a civil one. If someone has broken their contract then they can evict you. Of course you can contest this in a court of law (as is your right)

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Big Brother

What's the difference between protesting and rioting?

Well there is a fine line that got blurred this week. A protest can turn into a riot and then looting simply by taking a sensitive situation and throwing in some violent thugs.

When the protesters were kettled at the G20 last year it made me want them to fight the police. But instead they just let the police do what ever they liked. AT the same time actual rioters were smashing banks windows and the police were letting them.

People can't comprehend that police can chose to allow this stuff or chose to tackle it. Just because the looters get away with it does not mean the police could not cope and need more powers. People also can't comprehend that powers to tackle looters and rioters will be applied to protesters since effectively it's all degrees of the same thing.

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National service is bad for the forces

National service may well keep the kids off the streets and maybe even benefit a couple of them. It would, however, be a bad move for the forces. The UK operates a small, highly-trained, motivated professional volunteer force. Everyone there chose to be there.

If we were to dump tens of thousands of angry youths on the forces, they would have to come up with a lot of extra money and resources to deal with them. For many of them it would effectively be a prison camp. Good people would be taken from their real duties and forced to babysit people who don't want to be there. The days of needing cannon fodder in the UK forces are behind us and many of the conscripts would be totally unusuable for important duties; I wouldn't trust them with anything that needed doing well, not paperwork, not maintenance, not supply, certainly not combat - I can't think of a single role in the forces that I'd feel comfortable assigning an angry, surly conscript to; they'd be passed from pillar to post, nothing more than an extra burden on the forces. The UK armed forces are not prison wardens, teachers or babysitters for tens of thousands of people with no interest in it. It would sap resources and morale and at the end of it they'd just be dumped back onto the streets.

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Boffin

RE: National service is bad for the forces

Agreed, national service in the old form of military duty would be a bad idea, but then it would be a much better idea to bring back chaingangs and make the scum work for local councils. The councils can then spend money that would have been spent on employing third-parties to tender to do other jobs that would have been off the table due to budget restrictions. And for all those that would say this would impact third-parties by taking away opportunities to bid for council business, it doesn't as more opportunities would be offered from the extra money available by not having to pay for the work done by the chaingangs.

I'd suggest a jailterm broken down into two phases - the first half you do good ol' hard-time, this is the punishment bit; then you go before a review board, and if you've behaved you get the next quarter of your sentence spent on training for a trade, the re-education part; then another review and if you pass you spend the last quarter on parole. Misbehave at any stage of the process and it's back to repeating the hard-time half of your sentence again. Rinse and repeat as necessary. And I really don't care if that means some stupid scum get to waste their whole lives in prison, it's probably cheaper than having them out on benefits and committing crimes anyway.

And to quash the usual and predictable leftie/Libtard squealing - I don't read the Daily Fail or watch Fox News.

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oh oh

Surely they can only evict YOU if YOU break your contract not SOMEONE.

Don't mean to be picky, ok I admit it, I want to be picky, but in a mildly amusing, fun loving, non riot inciting way.

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right to protest

Didn't we lose the right to protest at Parliament recently ?

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I served in the Army

Trust me, the army knows how to deal with angry youths. Its been doing that for a very long time. Its mostly about changing habit through the time honoured and accepted method of - keeping you so knackered that you have little energy left at the end of the day for rebellious though, let alone action. Before you know it, you are voluntarily polishing your mess tins for inspection.

Ok so I was a volunteer but there were guys in my platoon who were offered the Army or far less pleasant alternatives (by a magistrate I think). I don't think it was widespread, but he was from Manchester, who I think invented angry : )

But I am opinionated and from Scotland so WTF do I know eh ? actually since I'm from Scotland I could probably leave out the opinionated :)

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Anonymous Coward

Following the Darwinian Award principle

Most will be aware of the Darwinian Award - idiots remove themselves from reproduction thereby improving the quality of the gene pool. I am in total favour of permanent riddance of these gangs that blight decent society.

Interviews with one of the rioters/looters showed an arrogant total disregard for society and that his parents would do nothing and at worst shout at him for 5 minutes. If arrested, he would get off with a caution for first offence or have an ASBO slapped on him. Big deal.

Should such an arsehole be allowed to reproduce? Will he at worst shout at his offspring for 5 minutes if his sprog in years to come went and beat someone up at a bus-stop? Bleeding hearts will accuse me of social engineering. Well, extreme circumstances require extreme solutions.

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Anonymous Coward

serialization

Actually you touch on a good point there, i know the human rights lobby will get up in arms on this one but im all up for serialization of REPEATED offenders, im not talk talking about slap on the wrist joe, im talking about billy boy who will not change, serialization would at least help stop innocent kids being brought up in a family who doesnt care and has no other intrest than sponging off the state and/or commiting crimes who by there own missfortune will more than likely end up doing the same or burning good peoples homes down.

Stop them reproducing will have the added effect of reducing the number of people being brought up in these circumstances there by helping to reduce crime rates from that one specific group and help keep the population in control, when i see "those" parents walking up the street shouting and swearing whilst slapping the arses of their 4 kids up the street i actually feel sick, but unless they give me their name an address i cant even report them to social, and the police cant do much unless their is proof of abuse

It will save us money, good children will be lesslikely to end up junky neds and perhaps we wouldnt have scenes like the last few nights in the future.

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Anonymous Coward

whoops! Sterilization

i didnt mean to barcode them all, although that might be ...... no lets not go there :~)

i mean

Sterilization!

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Is this the modern version...

...of the NTNOCN "Off with the goolies" sketch?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04clpd7h0b0

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Facepalm

RE: Following the Darwinian Award principle

A group of delinquent bored school children have manage to 'leverage' cheap and readily available communications technology and outwit London and Birmingham's finest for three days. I suspect that they will go forth and multiply (alas).

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Devil

I have a solution

Impregnate all tracksuits and similar sports wear with a chemical than sterilises the wearer if they eat anything from Greggs while they're wearing it.

That way, the odd genuine sporty person will be OK, but the chavs could rut away to their hearts content without burdening the state with their flat headed offspring.

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Community service

It seems fitting that if they broke the community they should be the ones to fix it. That's on top of whatever custodial sentence the courts throw at them.

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Mushroom

F**k em

I would gladly pay more tax to keep the whole lot of them locked up for the rest of their sad, worthless lives than see them live bone idle and free to tear the community apart with my hard earned money.

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Anonymous Coward

How about ...

Hanging is *TOO* good for them. Lets bring back the stocks.

Those convicted get stocks erected in the immediate vicinity of their crime and are required to be strung up there, completely naked.

The government meanwhile sets up a rotten fruit stall nearby, the proceeds to go towards repairing their damage. The perpetrator meanwhile remains there from 9pm to 6am every night until they have fully repaid their debt to society, or until death.

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Not bad

But there are certain places where you couldn't do that.

Like San Francisco.

Just sayin'

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another option

perhaps exiling them to some other place--an island perhaps......with Dingos and Crocs maybe?

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Devil

Already taken

We need somewhere new to send 'em. How about Mars. What do you mean they'd suffocate or freeze within a minute? Sounds good enough to me!

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Turn one or more of the Maunsell Sea Forts into ...

... a British variation on the Alcatraz/Devil's Island theme?

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Send them to Australia...

... and in a few years the Australians will be beating the Poms at rapping and Playstation too!

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WTF?

PC solution please, we're British

Send them all on a safari to Somalia.

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Like it

Pirates vs Looters - ninjas are so last-meme

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Holmes

Let loose

I think the benefits should be loosed into a fund to compensate riot victims ;-)

In all serious though, while I really don't like paying for these scumbags' lives, I wonder whether the loss of benefits will mean they're even more likely to commit crimes. I suspect it's a more complex issue than the petitioners have realised.

Sherlock because he's not exactly needed to identify a lot of these rioters as they post their own photos on Twitface.

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Devil

Possible.......

But if the only way they got them was to have to turn up for 10 hours a day 7 days a week starting at 8am, when they are usually still in bed, and do menial work in order to get their benefits then perhaps they will either get an interest in a real job or be too bloody knackered to be out on the streets causing problems.

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site unavailable

The epetitions site is down. Is it is that they didn't think democracy would be so popular, or is a conspiracy theory needed?

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Might get their wish (at least in part)

Quite apart from the spelling (and "loose" for "lose" is almost as prevalent as substituting "your" for "you're" or "could of" for "could have"), some London Councils are looking at evicting rioters from social housing.

http://www.southlondon-today.co.uk/news.cfm?id=29577&headline=%27If%20you%20riot%20in%20Southwark%20you%20risk%20losing%20your%20Southwark%20council%20flat%27

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Meh

Wild West End

"as we publish this from the Vulture Central insurrection-proof London bunker complex."

Nice.

Been trying to tell my fellow Merkins all morning that the Gun Lobby lies and that the (Western) Gun Culture is lazy and forgot to mention something: The reason 'self-defense' works is the law of Castle Doctrine (not available in the Washington, DC area), which removes uncertainty in self-defense. If I find an intruder in my living room at 3am, I can take whatever necessary steps to defend myself without further legal repercussions (excuse the pun please). In my case, that would be running like hell, because I don't own a gun. Nonetheless, there is no uncertainty in what I must do. The police have to assess, not me.

London merchants need Castle Doctrine, not guns. And after they have run like hell, the police have to handle it.

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@Gannon (J.) Dick

I could have shot the one intruder we have had here at chez jake, but when I got down to the kitchen, where he was, instead I calmly picked up the phone & called the non-emergency police line. When they arrived, I called off the dogs & he was transported to the hospital ;-)

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Boffin

@jake

I suppose I should have mentioned the dogs. They have no aptitude for the Law, and are naturally mean before morning coffee. They may have gotten some of that from me. The odds of convicting a Texan of overreacting are slim, and the odds of convicting a Texan's dog are infinitesimal.

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Megaphone

and while your at it ....

... NO CHILD BENEFIT / BENEFIT for ANYONE after the second child. (triplets / quadruplets at first birth excluded etc)

Yes, I know what you're all going to say, that's a tax on the poor procreating and the rich, who can normally better afford to bring their children up by their own means, will continue to do so. But, many better off peeps decide early that they will plan to only replace themselves. Many, many, more poorer folk decide wtf, we get hand outs for 'em so let's plan to keep at it as well. Of course this may not legislate against men fathering children by numerous mothers - unless fathers name / details are required to claim said benefit(s) of course.

No, I don't read the Daily Mail.

I just think that those kids whose destiny is to be brought up in relative poverty would be better off if there were fewer of them - they would be more to go round for each of them and who knows that might improve their chances of improving their own lot as it were.

Help them improve their surroundings by spending the same funds on teaching the youngsters the skills needed to improve where they live and you may see more pride and less prejudice.

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FAIL

wow

I mean seriously. I'd also ask my (3) kids to avoid giving their tax contributions to people they dont like either, perhaps remove state pensions for people who do not have children (for whatever reason - its not my fault afterall) <sigh>

"I just think that those kids whose destiny is to be brought up in relative poverty would be better off if there were fewer of them - they would be more to go round for each of them and who knows that might improve their chances of improving their own lot as it were."

I hope you are trolling. There are *responsible parents* out there you know. The ones who actually look to see if they can afford children. Sure I get tax credits and child benefit (and salary sacrifice vouchers for me and the wife) but it *all* goes on childcare - thus the money goes back to the treasury and keeps people in jobs too (which stops other social issues).

Nearly as bad as Cameron saying society is sick. Not really. The actions of 1000 people cannot dictate the whole of society. There were just as many volunteering to clean up the mess afterwards but no front page was devoted to them.

"Help them improve their surroundings by spending the same funds on teaching the youngsters the skills needed to improve where they live and you may see more pride and less prejudice."

Fairly pointless. we operate an appenticeship scheme - for free as we do take on >25 year olds too. Not a single one has been taken on as staff as we cannot afford to. Neither can anyone else. So they are back on the scraphead albeit with skills. Skilled workforce is useless without jobs.

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Boffin

RE: wow

".....Skilled workforce is useless without jobs," Actually, I totally agree on that point, but probably not in the way you would think. I see pointless political memes around getting the numbers of graduates up, or getting all school-leavers to have some form of diploma, but that's just a numbers game. Vast numbers of Medieval History or Applied Dance grads are not going to help get the economy back on track. A few people have mentioned Egypt without realising the Egyptian youth are quite well educated (by Middle-Eastern terms anyway), it didn't stop their problems because there simply weren't the jobs for them to go to once they graduated. So, maybe we should scrap the vote-pandering plans to provide even more educational opportunities to a group of people that seem determined to ignore them anyway, and instead look to spend the money on jobs for those that actually do want to get ahead.

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