back to article Renault readies sub-£7000 e-car for Blighty

Renault is pledging to put an e-car on Britain's roads for as little as £6690. That total will undoubtedly have been calculated with the government's £5000 e-car purchase grant. Even so, it's still well below the five-figure price tag other e-cars, from the likes of Mitsubishi, Peugeot and Nissan, have been set at. There's a …

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    1. Pete 2 Silver badge

      Batteries? That's probably the true cost, so not green at all

      The battery life/cost of 32p/mile is reasonable. I'd guess it is a true-cost reflection of what a rechargeable actually costs, taking into account it's manufacture and disposal costs. I doubt that Renault make any monkey out of the battery rental side (and that it will only increase, over time).

      The question that then arises is whether that makes battery operation any greener than petrol/diesel operation. On the presumption that petrol taxes already cover the CO2/carbon costs in $$$/ton - even though the government has chosen not to spend the revenue on carbon reduction - the answer would appear to be NO, since the electric operation costs are so much higher than petrol costs.

  1. Kabbie

    Rip-off britain or math-error?

    Either crossing the channel has got more expensive recently, or those rental figures are off.

    From Renault: "The monthly subscription is €45 inclusive of taxes for an annual distance travelled of 7,500km"

    So the 4500 miles is per year, not over three years.

    Still not convinced I want a 4-wheeled scooter...

  2. JP19

    The problem with EVs

    I have said all along the problem with electric vehicles is batteries are crap and expensive.

    Here we have a demonstration, 32p a mile for a battery crap enough to take an overgrown roller skate 60 miles.

  3. xj25vm

    Expensive

    So £12000 (including government subsidy) for an electric cart - without batteries. Considering that, without the batteries, the rest of an electric car is cheaper and simpler mechanically then an internal combustion one, and that the rest of the electronics/controls are not that expensive in the bigger picture, this is an heck of an expensive car. You can get plenty of larger petrol (and even some diesel) cars (including from Renault themselves) for less then £12000. What the devils are they thinking?

  4. David Barr

    False Economies and Marketing...

    Seems they're trying to make the lack of doors - which you just simply need - to be an advantage. Where ever you take the thing, assuming it's too big to pick up and put in your pocket, you'll want to close, lock and secure it.

    Surely for car purchases people aren't daft enough to just see the headline price and can see the real cost of it.

    Even if they are doing battery rental and taking that hassle away from the consumer, which is welcome, they should be including a years battery rental in the price.

  5. paulc
    FAIL

    2nd seat?

    you'd have to be dimensionally challenged to be able to get in the back seat...

    Anyway, 4500 miles? pah, I'd hit that easily just doing a daily commute in under a year...

    plus the charging point? How would I be able to charge it as I live in a tower block?

  6. Anton Ivanov
    Thumb Up

    Excellent one purpose vehicle - commuting to railway station

    Home to railway station and back home.

    The battery is also about right. 20-30 miles a day for most people, 250 days a year makes for 1000-1500 miles a year. So 4500 for 3 years is not crazy considering the vehicle purpose.

    If you need a second vehicle just for a commute - why not. It is definitely safer than a scooter and you stand a fair chance of arriving reasonably dry even in British weather. Price is also about right - on par with a high end scooter like the Honda Silver Wing.

    In fact, this is the old BMW C1 idea redone for electric and quad. As long as UK gov does not make you wear a helmet in it, it will sell.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      erm

      "The battery is also about right. 20-30 miles a day for most people, 250 days a year makes for 1000-1500 miles a year. So 4500 for 3 years is not crazy considering the vehicle purpose."

      Huh!?

      20 x 250 = 5,000 miles per year x 3 = 15,000 miles for three years

      30 x 250 = 7,500 miles per year x 3 = 22,500 for three years.

      And, don't forget, a daily journey is both ways, 20 - 30 miles is probably very conservative.

      1. Anton Ivanov

        Fair enough

        Should not post before first coffee... Lost a zero somewhere in the math...

        4500 is indeed not enough to get you around. You are quite right - you need at least 22500

  7. M.A
    FAIL

    no chance

    Several fails no doors bit cold in winter. having to rent the charger.cant really see it catching on.

  8. The BigYin

    Umm...

    ...isn't that just a battery-powered C1 with 4 wheels? Think I'd rather have a C1 to be honest (and repeal the stupid helmet laws for such a machine).

  9. Lamont Cranston
    Thumb Up

    This looks like quite a good idea,

    providing you live in London, or some other large city. I could even see it worthwhile as a second car, for commuting to work (my total daily mileage is just under 50).

    We're still some way off proper electric cars though - my wife was looking at the Nissan Leaf at the dealer's last week, as was advised by the salesman to steer well clear.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    3 years of 4500 miles

    4500 miles = ~30 miles per week over three years. That would mean I'd be able to get to work one day per week and have to walk back that day and both ways the rest of the week to avoid added charges.

    This sounds like the motoring equivalent of a low budget airline.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    That looks great

    I think the "car" looks ace and the reviews I've read so far have said that it's a hoot to drive.

    Once you can get over the lack of doors, where to find charging points etc it seems to make some sense. Even when you include the cost of battery rental it works out cheaper than virtually all other cars, and that's before you even factor in the savings of using electricity rather than petrol.

    I'd love to try one, but I don't need one so I won't be putting my name down.

  12. Just Thinking

    Well done Renault

    Makes my Clio Campus look not quite so crap.

  13. Giles Jones Gold badge

    Still too much

    Doesn't make much sense for me. Firstly the battery rental cost, what are the chances that Renault decide to hike that charge at any point?

    Then there's the electricity usage and with a 15% - 25% hike on the way it will get more expensive. Then you have to buy the damn thing as well.

    At it stands I'm better off running my diesel estate, it has enough room for a fridge freezer in the back. 5 people with the seats up and my monthly fuel spend is only around £80-100.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    three-year period and 4500 miles

    They're having a Le Laugh at us.

    1500Miles a YEAR....after paying 7k for the car and £40 a month...if you only do 1500Miles a year wouldn't it almost be cheaper to rent a car everytime you use it? considering depriciation, yes it would.

  15. John Riddoch
    FAIL

    Er, what?

    No doors to "ensure enjoyable open-air motoring" - they are aware that it rains in Britain, right? And if it's not raining, it's probably blowing a gale with associated wind chill factor?

  16. Duncan Hothersall

    2 seats?

    Are those pictures of a different vehicule then?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Joke

      it seats two

      the second person sits on the driver's face. it helps if you're better than friends.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    EH?

    Quote:-

    Renault wants 20 quid off you if you want to reserve a Twizy, which goes on sale in the spring of 2012. Says the Ts&Cs: the reservation fee doesn't guarantee you'll get a Twizy, or even that it'll be released in the UK after all.

    Eh?

    I'd expect Trading Standards will be looking at this very closely. IMHO this is on very dodgy ground indeed.

    1. Grease Monkey Silver badge

      Dodgy?

      Dodgy? Yes, but also pretty much standard practice when it comes to deposits and reservations.

      Look at housing developments. Pay £500 to reserve your plot for three months they say. And if they haven't built the house after three months? Well then you pay another £500 for the next three months. Once they have a deposit on a plot of course they are under less pressure to build on that plot because they are making money out of it. And are these deposits returnable? Are they hell.

      One car dealer told me I could pay a fee to "reserve a place in the queue". Not, you will notice, "reserve a car". The contract made it clear that the non-returnable deposit bought you a place in the queue, but there was no guarantee of how long it would take to fulfill all the orders or indeed the number of cars that would be made availavble. They were happy to keep selling places in the queue no matter how many people paid up. I asked one of the guys in our legal department to look over it and he said that although testing it in a court of law might decide otherwise he thought the contract was probably legal. So IOW you could pay your deposit, wait three years, get no car and no return of your deposit.

      The problem is that often the T&Cs make it quite clear what you're paying for and as long as that is pointed out when you pay up you have very little comeback.

  18. Richard 12 Silver badge
    FAIL

    That's truly stupid

    A decent 2nd hand diesel car costs less to buy and less to run, even before you include the cost of electric to charge it with!

    Eg: Citroen Picasso, £2000, 11p/mile urban use (real figures, not manufacturer) - and that is with the current 141p/L

    Newer are probably better.

    1. Grease Monkey Silver badge

      Why?

      Why is it that whenever a new car is mentioned somebody will always compare the price with that of a second hand vehicle? That's not how the real world works and you know it.

      Oh and I have to contest your figures anyway. 11p/mile? At 60mpg that is fuel costs only. What about your other costs? They are quite significant. Insurance, servicing, tyres, tax, congestion charging (if you happen to live or work in London). Tax and congestion charges would cost your Citroen how much? Servicing would cost more because there's a lot more to service on an IC engine. Tyres (and brakes and bearinga) will wear out more quickly and cost more for your diesel because of the extra weight over an above the scant 990lb of the Renault.

      We used to reckon that even on a used car fuel only amounted to half the running costs as a rule of thumb. The proportion being lower the newer and more expensive the car and therefore the higher the depreciation cost. With current fuel prices it's probably not quite that low, but still lower than many people think.

      It's all well and good quoting 2 grand as the purchase cost, but you are looking at a car of something going on for ten years there. You could run this Renault thing for three years with no MOT costs, your Picasso would in the same period require not only the MOT test fees but the costs of the repairs it will need every year.

      If you want to work on running costs that only consider fuel costs then of course the Renault would cost a fraction to run of your old rust bucket.

      1. Richard 12 Silver badge
        FAIL

        Yeah, there are those other costs

        All of which except the congestion charge and road tax apply to both vehicles.

        I'd still have to insure it and to service it either way.

        Tyre cost is irrelevant as I've not actually needed to replace any tyres on my rust-bucket in five years, so I'd expect these to last at least that long. (The odd puncture repair job, but that'd happen to anything)

        Insurance is an unknown - I'd guess insuring a brand-new vehicle to be more expensive than an older one, but that is a guess as the vehicles are in very different classes.

        Servicing the Renault is not going to be cheaper - I can take an infernal combustion engine to any garage I like, while this Renault would have to go to the dealership - and probably a specific one.

        That takes the cost of a simple service way, way up, so the 'simpler' Renault service may well be more expensive! (And maybe it's not even simpler?)

        As to the brand-new/second hand comparison - this makes perfect sense. This vehicle would not be the first vehicle in a houehold, and it's aimed at 'greenies'. What's greener - buying a brand-new vehicle for your second 'commuter car', or buying a second-hand vehicle?

        The rust-bucket is clearly greener on the manufacture argument, so the new one has to be green (which actually means cheap) enough to run to outweigh the materials cost.

        However, if you're in the congestion charge zone daily, you have a good argument.

        So that's the only place on Earth that'd I'd ever expect to see this vehicle.

  19. TWB

    No doors - not as bad as you might think

    I like the look of it but think it will not catch on even if the batteries were free - people are too set in their ways as the comments above sadly show - we're all doomed anyway.

    However, as someone who owned Mini Moke outside and inside London for 15 years - believe it or not, with no doors (I never used mine - they stayed wrapped up in the loft) you stay surprising dry even in the heaviest of rain - it was only when there were severe side gusts did I get a bit damp but with a decent coat and gloves I was rarely cold even through winter.

    Saying that, I still don't want one.

  20. Lottie

    runk?

    It reminds me of the version one terminators from T3. Well maybe the T1 robots simple half brother.

    Sadly, the model for hiring and whatnot just doesn't add up. 30 odd pence per mile is more than I get from my Ka and I've done over 1500 miles in the past month. Sadly it would work out super expensive and far too restrictive.

    Plus, I couldn't keep an emergency jacket in the back as it'd get nicked.

    Fail all round then.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Scooter

    It's basically a four wheeled scooter and think of all the scooter you could get for seven grand. But it doesn't have the advantages of a scooter, but has many of the disadvantages such as getting wet and little crash safety.

    The people selling vehicles homologated as quadricycles don't exactly advertise the fact that quadracycles don't have to pass crash safety tests. For a manufacturer or retailler this is a big advantage because the vehicles are cheaper to build because they don't have to build in all the impact protection, they are also cheaper because they homologation process is cheaper. The trouble is that buyers often don't know that these vehicles may be incredibly dangerous in even a low speed accident because they don't have to pass crash tests.

    Also the rear accomodation looks incredibly cramped from the photographs, I'd be more inclined to call it a 1+1 than a true two seater.

    If you don't want to burn fossil fuels I understand Suzuki have a fuel cell version of the Burgman Scooter on the way. 220 mile range and a fair bit faster than this weird looking thing.

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Electric bike a better prospect

    This is a commuter vehicle, by the sounds of it, for short journeys inside cities. For this purpose, an electric push-bike (which I own) or an electric scooter is a far better choice! With the push bike, there is no insurance, a backup power system if you run out of charge and it is about 5 times cheaper to get a decent bike + battery. I'd love an electric car, but this won't be the one.

  23. Grease Monkey Silver badge
    FAIL

    Too Heavy

    According to DVLA rules a quadricycle with a continous rated power output of more than 4KW but a maximum of 15KW has an upper weight limit of 400Kg. Renault are quoting a weight of 450Kg for the Twizy. So according to the DVLA the Twizy does not qualify as a quadricycle and as such would need to be fully type approved and registered as a car.

    Either Renault need to trim more than 10% of the weight off the Twizy (no easy task) or they will have to sell it as a car. That will not only mean they will have to get the thing type approved which is a costly process, but they will also need to bring it up to TA standards for a car. This will mean they will cost more to manufacture and will weigh more.

    The only other hope they have is to go for a low volume type approval which is less stringent, but it would limit the number of Twizys they could sell per year. Not that much of an issue since I can't see them selling many in the first place.

    1. Anton Ivanov

      There was some loophole in that rule for electrics

      There is a loophole in the quad rule for electric. IIRC it is either the weight is taken without the battery or something else like that. The version you are quoting is the petrol only one which the g-wiz fails as well.

      Try to find the full definition.

      1. Grease Monkey Silver badge

        Battery

        The rules for electrics do indeed exlude the weight of the battery, according to the DVLA the battery is the fuel and the weight of the fuel isn't counted for an IC quadricycle. However the battery in the Renault doesn't weigh anything like 50Kg.

  24. Matt Bryant Silver badge
    Happy

    A-ha! I've got it!

    I've seen through Renault's plan! This is actually a cunning scheme to put people OFF electric cars and make their other products look good! Now it all fits, it even gives them an excuse to avoid green measures. The next time the EU starts moaning at the car makers for not building leckycars, Renault will shrug and say "Well, we built the Twizy, and no-one bought it...."

  25. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    FAIL

    I guess some Frenchmen have not forgotten Agincourt or Waterloo.

    How else to explain something that sucks donkey's scrotum so badly.

    No doors x no battery x s**t basic mileage = Expensive rubbish urban driving experience

    Looks like something you could offer as a rental at a holiday resort.

    I believe the issues around battery cost, charging and replacement are *the* big issues. For the foreseeable future it will be a question of how a design copes with the less-than-perfect battery technology they choose to use *whatever* the type chosen.

    On the plus side who'd steal it and the lack of doors means you can bail out quickly if you get into an urban fire fight with other armed motorists.

    But for normal people the fail is strong in this design.

  26. Alan Denman

    The Sinclair X1 is better looking

    So if I bought the X1 for £600 can I get that £5000 grant too?

    Neither seem to be cars as such yet its only Renault that is taking our government for a ride.

  27. John 62
    Headmaster

    what's a quadbike?

    is that, like, 8 wheels? 4 bikes strapped together?

    Glad to see a few commenters have written quadricycle.

  28. Max Entropy

    Nice Golf Cart

    Pretty cool but where are you supposed to put the golf clubs?

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