back to article TomTom sorry for giving customer driving data to cops

Navigation device maker TomTom has apologized for supplying driving data collected from customers to police to use in catching speeding motorists. The data, including historical speed, has been sold to local and regional governments in the Netherlands to help police set speed traps, Dutch newspaper AD reported here, with a …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.

Page:

    1. G Wilson

      "Anonymous"

      That's because you're assuming that "anonymous" in corporate excuse-making language actually means what you think of as "anonymous". But the range of what consists of identifying information is wider than names and reg numbers. If data shows my car parking in my drive and repeatedly driving to my office, that's not anonymous. It's surveillance.

      There is no reason at all to store this kind of data, let alone pass it on. Boycott Tomtom, IMO.

    2. Wayland Sothcott 1

      Jarrad you don't get it

      The point is that TomTom are supposed to assist the motorist. That's why the motorists pay for the service. So behind their backs TomTom assists the police in setting up speed traps, which are the sorts of hazards that motorists try to avoid.

      It's not the use of location data which helps motorists that's the problem. When the data was used for planning better roads or avoiding traffic jams then the motorists are pleased.

      There maybe some motorists who believe that speed traps are there to help them, but on the whole motorists are against them.

  1. Stephen 1
    Alert

    Garmin

    Very bad behaviour TomTom. However in their defence, I've been reliably informed that Garmin devices store historical route data on the device itself like the iPhone but that TomTom don't.

    1. SirTainleyBarking
      Black Helicopters

      Create a new account here

      Yes my Garmin does hold average and peak speed data, along with route data.

      And I can delete it at any time by going into the menu screen and hitting the correct icon on the screen.

      And as I don't have any GSM / GPRS / 3G connection between it and Garmin's office, the only way to get that info off is to physically obtain the device before I hit delete.

      Nice little device

  2. Snark

    Where TomTom get's its data from...

    From their website "Only TomTom takes existing traffic information and enhances it using anonymous data from 80 million mobile phone users on the road and 1.6 million connected TomTom devices. This makes TomTom’s HD Traffic revolutionary - able to deliver the world’s most accurate traffic information."

    It's pretty smart really and useful on my TomTom. In the UK I think most of their data actually comes anonymously from Vodafone passing on details from their phones... Wonder if people knew their phones were doing that :). TomTom I think was just then reselling it on.

    The government sell on of data was supposed to help traffic information centres update their information displays and deal with incidents, plan traffic changes, etc, but I bet some bright spark thought they'd won the lottery when they realised they could work out where to put speed traps!

  3. demat
    Big Brother

    TomTom is evil.

    If I know TomTom maps, the cameras will end up facing the wrong way down one-way streets.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    Funny

    LOL at the drivers (I'm sorry, "motorists" gives a respectable Daily Wail-esque veneer to 90% of the working population who can't handle a car to save their sorry behinds) who bought these to facilitate speeding, with all the camera locations pre-programmed - and then it gets used against them.

  5. Billa Bong
    Stop

    If you weren't speeding, you wouldn't care

    I *don't* care about people collecting data about me; I *do* care about the use to which it's put; but what annoys me more is when people blame a company like tomtom for something which is not really their problem (especially since they acted with better intentions than the data buyers). The problem you guys are (mostly) complaining about is unnecessary low speed limits and police using the data to collect speed tax.

    Sort it out with the proper authorities by requesting a revision of the speed limit, or don't speed, but don't seek to blame tomtom: Traps are set up in known speeding hot spots - if the police can't obtain the data through tomtom or another gps based tracker (there are many) then they'll just continue to use public informants and complaints to set them up - speeders will not be any safer from the law - accept it and act responsibly, but stop bitchin' about it.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      RE: If you weren't speeding, you wouldn't care

      I care since I have to PAY for this service! Either TomTom let the police pay for the service (which is tax-payers money and thus MY money too) OR me directly.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    And in the UK?

    Are they playing the same game here? Mind you, they're probably obliged to hand it over under our liberal laws (ie authorities should have free access to anything they want).

    1. Code Monkey
      Headmaster

      I agree, but

      "authorities should have free access to anything they want" is indeed the regime we now live under but these are anything but I'd not describe it as "liberal".

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I meant ...

        ... "liberal" in the sense of "free of constraint", and (I thought) indicated that these freedoms only seem to apply to the authorities, rather than us serfs. So I think we agree. We sure aren't getting any more free.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Probably mostly naivette on the part of tom tom, actually.

    As far as I can gather, tom tom asked people to agree to send location data to tom tom when "syncing at the pc", for analysis purposes. I'm willing to accept that they believe they did their best to anonymise the data. Also, it's probably not suitable evidence against any one individual. Failure to anonymise is certainly a valid concern, but not the most important point to be highlighted here.

    So tom tom sold that data on to governments, and didn't stop and think that in the Netherlands that now-a-days _always_ _also_ means police & co. will take a look and see if they can't squeeze a bit extra out of the populace. Like here, figuring out where speed traps will be most profitable. Instead of changing the speed limits, as that'd _cost_ monies, and there's still this spending gap to stuff any way they can.

    Part of the outrage ought to be that most people should now be figuring this one out, too. It's not like it hasn't been all over the papers for months that now-a-days many a checkpoint includes customs & revenue squeeze specialists (and do note that's two separate services in .nl) and whoever else they can dig up to give not just your car and associated papers, but your entire legal identity the thorough once-over. Tax arrears, unpaid fines, and so on, become immediately payable on such road blocks. There is this clear pattern emerging that the Dutch should not neglect to question. Because if nobody tells the plod to stop they'll go right on "innovating" in this "profitable" field.

  8. Pavlov's obedient mutt
    Thumb Up

    apology and a free speed cam sub

    So I got an email from TomTom last night (I live in the Netherlands) explaining their disgust and offering me a free sub to their speed camera add on

    now all I need is a car again.

    ;)

    Personally, I like their response. It was quick and - for me, and probably all us Dutchies - effective

    1. Manu T

      RE: apology and a free speed cam sub

      Good for you. I demanded to be removed from ALL of their services, dumbed my TOmTOm and started using the ancient CD-based nav again from my car. Fuck THEM!

      Next 170 euro spend will be newer CD's for it instead of an spyware ridden navigation device.

  9. bitmap animal

    Depends how they prcessed the data for sale

    If they sold the raw route log then that is not good at all for the privacy of the motorist.

    If they processed it for example to say that at [X,Y] location between 12:00 and 12:59 5 vehicles did 0-29mph, 7 did 30-39mph and 3 did 40mph or over then that does not easily allow any individual journey to be extracted and gives a good representation of the traffic speeds at any given point and time.

  10. Enjoying life
    Thumb Down

    Improving a revenues

    So in the latest iPhone update you now subscribe (pay extra) to subscribe to "Tom Tom Speed Cameras! This service keeps your fixed cameras fresh and even informs you about mobile cameras in real time". Which seems like a must have if they are also selling information to the police that is used to determine where new speed cameras should be put. Ethichally questionable at best but I suppose Tom Tom would regard it as smart business. "We know you need our update service because its our information to the police that ensures you do.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Ah, you misunderstand, my friend

      The filth should only be siting speed cameras at dangerous locations. TomTom (etc.) are therefore using the location of speed cameras as an indication of particularly dangerous stretches of road.

      The warning is purely related to your safety and nothing to do with avoiding getting fined for speeding No sir! not at all.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Oh Oh Oh!! Look - information has value

    That astounded me almost as much as when I discovered that the Pope is Catholic and bears shit in woods.

    Or like when I discovered that absolutely everyone - from your local council to your supermarket to your telephone company to the nice charities you donate to - will sell your data on to whoever wants to pay for it, and has done so since about the time language was invented.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      [Re:] Oh Oh Oh!! Look - information has value

      Or like when I discovered that absolutely everyone - from your local council to your supermarket to your telephone company to the nice charities you donate to - will sell your data on to whoever wants to pay for it, and has done so since about the time language was invented.

      Apples and Oranges

      Your not a target for physical harm, legal problems, or assassination with the old school.

      ma bell is a cheap mother****** is not the same as Name) summoned to appear on date, rolled up into a secure facility, or buried in a hole.

      What goes around comes around, 2011 was the beginning of a horrific future of lawlessness.

  12. Jim 59

    Live data

    Tracking the user is only possible with "live" traffic services, ie. where your satnav communicates back to Tom Tom. The GPS infrastructure itself does not know your position, only your satnav knows that. Higher end satnavs and smartphones some with "live" services. Lower end satnavs don't and can't be tracked. Some satnavs (eg Navigon) use FM radio for traffic warnings ("TMC"), which again cannot be tracked.

    So for stealth mode, avoid "live data" satnavs. And keep your mobile phone switched off.

  13. Lamont Cranston
    Jobs Horns

    Just don't drive too fast.

    Not that big of a deal.

    -Sent from my TomTom, via my iPhone.

  14. Paul Stimpson

    The TomTom "Live" experience

    TomTom collect anonymous data about the speed of users of their "Live" online navigation products. IIRC I was asked by the device for consent for this the first time I used it. Older devices will do this through a Bluetooth tether to the user's phone and the new, higher-end devices have a mobile data module and SIM card inside and don't need a phone.

    If you have one of the "Live" devices, the data collected from other users provides you with a number of benefits:

    1) "IQ Routes" (what happened in the past). Route planning is done using historical data of drivers' speeds on these roads at this time of day rather than the posted speed limit. This means my TomTom knows, for example, that using Hanger Lane to get to Park Royal is a good idea at 1900 on Saturday but a really dumb idea at 0800 on Monday.

    2) "HD Traffic" (what is happening now). If a user is travelling at significantly less than the speed limit on a stretch of road that stretch is automatically added to the traffic information as a delay and propagated to other users so their units can replan round the hold up. If I drive through an area with a hold up marked and I make good time, that delay is automatically deleted from the traffic information. This information also serves to provide more accurate arrival time estimates ("There's nothing we want to call a traffic jam but your journey is going to take 4 minutes longer than it would on clear roads.)

    Overall I believe these are positive things for me.

    The allegation here I believe is that TomTom sold the HD Traffic data to a party involved in law enforcement who used it to work out where people tend to do more than the speed limit so they could put speed traps there, not to point the finger at individual users. This still makes me think badly of TomTom and I hope they won't repeat this behaviour or will modify the data so any readings above the speed limit will report at the speed limit (so if someone does 80 on the motorway the speed will be reported as 70)

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      re. The TomTom "Live" experience

      TomTom have taken out full page ads in the Dutch press today apologising for this unforeseen use (by the police) of the anonymised traffic data. They go on to say that they will change the licencing terms for the data they provide to third parties to forbid this kind of use. By way of an apology they have also included a link that allows TomTom users to get a free update of the latest speed camera locations in the Netherlands for devices that support that.

  15. Humu
    Alert

    Speed more than 13.2 km/s

    I've seen some data collected by the navigators, and then turned to experts do some analysis on it. It was extremely hilarious to find out, how some cars first crawl very slowly, and then they speed up something like 13.2 km/s (speed to reach the orbit)!. If the cops are REALLY using the TomTom data to catch speeders, they'll need to have something like US Space Shutlle.

  16. NoneSuch Silver badge
    Big Brother

    Why did TomTom do it?

    Because there is money to be made.

    It is the same Reason M$, Apple and Google are doing it on their phones. If someone is willing to pay $$$ for data, then that data will be collected and saved.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Typed with a bag over my head

    Where people live or work --- how can that be called "sensitive?"

    Come on: ban phone directories!

    (woops, I guess I'm not posting as AC anyway, so I might as well take the bag off now)

  18. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    "but it's not an injust law (or morally suspect) "

    This is a joke right? If speed limits were set sensibly then it would be a just law, but they are not, so it isn't. It is well known that speed limits are subject to all kind of irrational PC considerations and where not are based on vehicles and roads of the 1960s.

    I can drive at speed appropriate for the conditions without having a number to tell me it. If a low speed limit is set because of a known hazard, the appropriate hazard sign should be used along with the low speed limit. Sometimes the authorities get this right. Sometimes, they don't.

    Moreover, many speed limits off the motorway are set by council jobsworths with no traffic planning qualifications or experience.

    Sure I obey them 'cos I don't want a ticket/points/fine. But I don't have to agree with them.

    1. Kevin Johnston

      Town Planners

      Did you know that if they go for the degree they get a Bachelor of Arts degree rather than Science? Says it all really, let's make the road curve around here and then go back on itself here 'cos that'll look really cool from a helicopter.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    An apology

    An apology normally comes with restitution and making things right.

    This is propaganda, not an apology. It's hunting for victims using establishment color of law. Bottom line, quit using GPS, can't anyone read a paper map anymore? You look up the street in the index, and take the Letter and Number and plot it with two straight sticks. Try tracking a thomas guide bitchez. That's right fascism killer, and don't forget to use cash maybe they might track your purchase of the guide.

    Out these scum in all parties, or next they'll track you for not buying a gps!

  20. merry-v

    Never ceases

    It never ceases to amaze me that people think driving slowly is necessarily safe, and driving above the limit is necessarily dangerous. The police rarely prosecute anyone for driving up to 85 on the motorway - maybe it's not causing any accidents, in itself?

    And why do people think that people who speed are necessarily speeding always, any time and anywhere? Most drivers choose carefully when to speed and by how much, because apart from anyone else,they don't have a death wish.

    the last stats I saw from the UK government stated that 2% of accidents were caused by speeding in the over 25 years of age category, and 8% in the under 25 category.

    Maybe we should focus on the other 92%+ non-speed related incidents?

    FWIW - some speed cameras do prevent accidents and should be maintained. And there is such a thing as "too fast", but let's not be idiots about it by taking a black and white position that the posted speed limit is the sensible limit. That's bull****.

  21. psyq
    Happy

    The funniest part...

    Is that TomTom sells "Speed Cameras" service to the users, helping them to avoid speed traps...

    Then, they sell the data to cops, so they can maximize the revenue.

    Looks like the dream business model :-)

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    I'm afraid I'll get a speeding ticket

    ...by running at about 300 kph, also without having any driving license.

    I'd better stop riding the TGV for now.

  23. Clive Galway
    FAIL

    Another nail in the coffin for TomTom

    Funny that they should get in trouble for selling the data they use to populate the "IQ Routes" service (Real time traffic data from phone info) which IIRC is also largely scraped from cell mast usage info sold to it by ?Vodafone?.

    The amusing thing is that winmo, despite being the first phone OS to get a TomTom app, has NEVER gotten access to this data, as TomTom never released a version with IQ Routes for that platform. Annoyingly, they then released an iPhone version with IQRoutes but still left their existing winmo customers out in the cold. After 3+ years of waiting, I finally gave up and moved to Android, but TomTom have announced no version for that either, so I now use CoPilot.

    It's your own stupid fault - if you released an IQRoutes version for WinMo and/or Android, you would have a revenue stream from that (IQRoutes is a monthly subscription) and wouldn't have to sell the data to the cops to generate the much needed revenue.

    Goodbye TomTom, don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.

  24. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Tomtom, You're a bunch of hypocrite thieves!!! A SORRY is NOT enough. I want a FULL REFUND!

    What many posters seem to forget is that this is already a PAID FOR service! Additional TomTom SELLS that same data again. This is double profit! Either TomTom refund it's customers and make this a police paid service (since they seem to be most interested in this) or DON'T sell to anyone and make this a paid for service (as it's intention used to be). It's one or the other but not both!!

    Not to mention that the police abuse this data to collect additional fines (instead of redirecting this too the public services to actually improve the infrastructure). This means the customer pays 3 times!

    1) Tax-payers with TomTom's pay for the service (directly to TomTom)

    2) the police buys this data (with tax-payers money of course)

    3) the police abuse this data to retrieve MORE tax-payers money.

    This has to stop. All these corporations filling their pockets, decreasing our freedom and privacy and to make matters worse collaborating with corrupt governmental organizations.

    In Holland traffic fines are ridiculously high. You pay 150 euro if you ride to close to the car in front or forget to wear a seatbelt. If you're speeding you get your speeding ticket from an attorney (which means an astronomical high fine). This is ludicrous.

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Grenade

    Speeding

    So if I lend my m/c to friend who knows? Speeding, well for starters the 30mph/50kmph are horse related, not so many these days, new limits of 20Mph or 30KLMPH are really stupid as they have been brought down to compensate for reduced vehicle noise, top speed of say 70/110 are just as stupid because you get bumper to bumper driving and lane blocks. Having 50 or 40 for commercials and 60 for smaller vehicles means that you cannot safely pass a lorry unless you have 2klm or a mile of clear road. Frankly the IOM have it right, no limit but you really get clobbered if you have a bang or seen going stupidly by the bill.

    Here in a certain EU country the cars bunch so that the cameras cannot see the licence plates. The distance used is "merde", nothing like the UK "dont be a fool use the 2 second rule".

    I did enjoy blatting around an M25 average 50 limit at 75. It was perfectly safe, no other vehicles, my bike did not exceed a 35 degree angle, luverly. So why the average 50 limit please uncle bill? We did a test on cameras as well, about 80% do not work correctly, or at all. EG A505 90+ no flash from most.

    Oh yes forgot to say, had UK plates and bike was actually awaiting overseas reg.

    Now that new tyre laws have come in the speed limits will have to come down again as you cannot hear the electric cars coming. Expect to see 10MPH a speed most bikes cannot safely do eventually ending with a M/C ban on those streets due to inherent safety problems.

    Me I just add 10 to every speed limit, you KNOW that the people that work them out have no idea of vehicular safety, added to which your speedo is out reading high by 10% and cameras have to have at least a 5% margin.

  26. sieler

    No one *forced* TomTom to do this.

    Re:

    "As more smartphones offer GPS navigation service, TomTom has been forced to compensate"

    Shame on the author ... no one *forced* TomTom to do anything. They chose to do it ... if that word was in a TomTom press release, that doesn't mean you have to blindly follow it. Choosing the words to use is an incredibly important power: don't abandon it or let other people do it for you.

Page:

This topic is closed for new posts.