back to article ICT classes in school should be binned – IT biz body

Schools should stop teaching ICT lessons in their current form as the subject is failing both pupils and employers, according to trade bod Intellect. "We believe that ICT in its current form should not be a statutory programme of study," says John Hoggard, Intellect education honcho. "Takeup of ICT courses is falling – GCSE …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Troll

    Separate the issues out.,...

    Computer literacy is different from Technical ability - make basic Computer Use a part of the English curriculum and make Technical practices part of the Science curriculum.

    Office, basic Mobile Phone Use, Setting Timers / Clocks, Email, "Multimedia" (ugh) = Computer Literacy

    Programming, Data Comms, Cabling, Hardware Maintenance, Mobile phone config = Technical Practices

    This way everyone gets the basics but the geeks can specialise. Simples.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Unhappy

    Are schools for education or training?

    Ever read that story, "The Machine Stops", by E.M. Forster? He seems to have been very prescient and we are not so far from his vision.

    The nub of the matter is, schools were, originally, meant to equip one for life and further development. Job-specific training came later, at a time when one had got the basic education to make reasonably informed choices and still to have choices, while being educated in the culture and basic, general skills of one's society.

    Schools should educate, not train, not dragoon children into being little workers. So, teach culture, literacy, numeracy and a problem.solving, questioning attitude to the world around them, rather than forcing them into "work-related" lessons on computing, accountancy, brick laying or whatever. Open their minds to the possibilities to come, that will certainly differ from those today.

    Computing has got a place as a tool, just as pen and paper. But do not treat it as a universal, essential panacea for all subjects at all levels. Does one really need a computer to study history, English or basic arithmetic, algebra and geometry? I would argue that a child should master the basics of literacy and numeracy before a computer is even allowed in the classroom. A student should understand searching the literature, writing to and visiting peers and researchers for papers and so on before sitting in front of a search machine that limits him to what is on-line and matches the algorithm of Google or Yahoo or Bing.

    Oh well, suppose even reading is out now: just let the machine read it out to you; exercise? Let the machine massage you and move your limbs. Drama? Surely the machine can do a better job of designing and making sets, costumes and lighting than a mere human.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    shame

    I was the last year of 'O' Levels (class of 87) and did 'O' level computer studies as it was called then. The course was actually ok, you did do programning, BBC basic, and did some logic stuff and how systems worked etc

  4. bazinsane

    let's learn micro$0ft

    I taught adult ed in manc for a couple of terms. The ICT course as they put it was based on CLAIT and it has nothing to do with IT. What the course is used for is to teach the latest version of microsoft office products ( preferably 2 versions behind) on clapped out PCs which aren't up to the job.

    ICT is not relevant - windows is not relevant. What we have is a bunch of kids who are brilliant at social networking but couldn't fight their way out of a command line.

  5. Eponymous Cowherd
    Thumb Down

    Its badly named in the first place.

    From hearing what my kids are taught in what are laughably called "information and communications technology" classes, it appear to be more secretarial skills than anything else.

    It a bit like calling driving lessons "Automotive and Engineering Technology".....

  6. InITForTheMoney

    I couldn't agree more...

    I'm a 28 year old self employed Infrastructure Architect, I'd like to show you where education gave me a leg up and where it let me down on the way to where I am now.

    I started secondary school in 1993 at what was the 13th and last City Technology College ever built, it was brand new and my year group was the first and (to start with) only year group... it gradually opened year by year as we progressed. It took in a cross section of pupils from different backgrounds and eventually became one of the first Academies. It is now the biggest Academy in the Bristol area.

    During my first year, we were given touch typing lessons (I've never met anyone else of my generation who was taught to type at school... why?) and basic lessons in Desktop Publishing (using Clarisworks) on Macs, twice a week for 30 minutes (outside of the normal curriculum), at the time we had the largest network of Mac's anywhere in europe. The use of IT was central to every lesson that we had, up to the point where we began GCSE study, at this point the curriculum was more strict and we were only able to use it for certain things. Every student had what we would now consider to be basic skills in DTP, spreadsheets, databases (Filemaker Pro) email and using the internet (via our JANET connection) by the age of 13. At the time this was almost unheard of in the local area.

    I took nine GCSE's and a part one GNVQ in Information Technology (by this time we had a suite of Windows NT4.0 PC's as well). The IT subject matter taught in the IT course was woefully inadequate... almost the entire time the class thought it was being taught to suck eggs. Most of us that took it had taken a strong interest in IT (as you might expect given we were surrounded by it) and would help with maintenance of the IT systems and computer rooms around the school, we were expecting to learn things that would be a bit more advanced. The network admin at our school, while not being incredibly strong in IT used us extensively and encouraged us to learn, we would do builds, installs and patches on workstations (Mac & Windows) for her. Some of us also did things with Linux, SunOS and SGI Irix.

    Of the group of 48 who took the Part 1 IT GNVQ, 2 actually finished the coursework, not because it was hard, but because it was so useless and boring, we could have proved all of our skills in all of the areas the GNVQ required in the first week by going through work we had produced over the previous 3 years, however, the format of the course insisted that we follow planned exercises in sequence that added up to a lot less than we were capable of. Worst of all... we had to submit all of our completed activities in PRINTED form, not on floppy or CD... printed. You could pass with distinction if you just made it look like it worked, the examiner never got a floppy copy and would never know.

    What the course taught was how to use Excel, Word, Powerpoint and how to create a basic database in MS Access 97.

    I then went on to A-Level, I'd been told the Advanced GNVQ in IT would be more my thing, since it would teach more advanced IT subject matter. I started it, realised it was going over old ground for at least the first year and that it was going to be equally useless. I quit the course and took an A-Level in computing as an evening class at another College, this again focused on MS Office and Access 2000 (I at least learned some VB this time), but because it wasn't a GNVQ you could be more creative with your coursework and rather than multiple choice questions you could give proper answers for the exams. It was better than the GNVQ but it still covered a lot of old ground and I question the value of most of it.

    After VIth form I did a gap year with an organisation called the year in Industry, working in an IT department of an engineering consultancy, where frankly they were amazed that I could type, knew what a CAD package was, could build web pages and knew something of linux. I cant thank everyone at "Scott Wilson" enough for their nurturing attitude while I was with them, without doubt one of the best decisions I ever made was to do my gap year with them.

    I then went to university... where what I was taught for the 1st year was effectively the computing A-Level again (I'd used none of it in my gap year), but with some Java (taught very badly), some C (taught slightly less badly), some completely useless maths about matrices and something about logic gates, which I have yet to find any practical use for. However, the university was a Cisco academy and I did learn some useful stuff about IP and routing, which I still use. I dropped out after the first year.

    The system fails because:

    * Each stage of the education process repeats the last rather than extending it, this means if you start on the track early there is no incentive at the later stages, since you wont learn much new

    * All IT courses assume no knowledge and don't allow you to start further along and prove your ability

    * IT teachers and university lecturers seem to have very little knowledge of the needs of businesses or the IT industry

    * Schools don't have the right equipment or software to teach, they don't adapt with industry and are often left behind the curve

    * The system teaches students to use specific products (generally MS Office) this means that when confronted with other packages the students are lost

    On the last note, in our case all students knew Clarisworks and the Windows machines were largely neglected until Clarisworks was junked by the school in favour of MSOffice - many found MSOffice confusing, but in the modern world, students learn MS Office and then have trouble with newer versions (e.g office 2007's ribbon interface) or competing packages like OpenOffice.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Linux

      "useless maths about matrices"?!

      Simultaneous equations! Tranformations!

      Matrices are useful and applied in computing in lots of places just not in a GUI interface.

  7. Chris Harries
    Stop

    Too easy

    In maths you need to learn things like trigonometry, statistics models like rank correlation, quadratic equations etc etc all of which are slightly harder then 1 + 1, however IT in schools really is just 1+ 1. A-Level IT is shit as well, I did computer science and AVCE IT at A-Level and it was SHIT. It didn't really teach me anything I didn't know already or could work out by reading a website in 2 minutes. I see some schools have introduced courses such as CCNA which is also a terrible idea. From my perspective it either seams to low level (teaching pascal, why bother, there are other languages that people could have more revelance too like PHP, C~ etc (I'm sure someone will disagree with me) or they are too high level and just focus on using MS Access or if statements in Excel like that is challenging our brains. Too easy and too bull shit, that's what it was 5 years ago, I doubt much has changed

  8. Alan Ableson

    Remember: acronyms are not universal!

    Just a quick journalistic note. Many of your readers come from outside the UK, and in our education debates we don't use the acronym "ICT". I don't mind the use of the acronym in the headline for brevity, but the term should be written out in full the first time it is used in the article itself. Readers shouldn't have to resort to a Google search outside the article to determine whether the "C" is for "computing" or for "communication"...

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Speaking as a "lecturer"...

    Speaking as a professionally young "college lecturer" who happens to deliver what is essentially key skills ICT, I can pretty much state with a lot of firm conviction that a lot of students still simply are not au fait with technology as a whole. A lot of my students don't even know how to use their phones properly and we're talking basic Symbian here (Don't get me started on the ones with Crackberries...) let alone how to use a computer properly. Sure, there are a lot of smart kids not far from my age whom I lecture who know stuff... But there are a horrendous amount who do not know the first thing about ICT despite years of education prior.

    It's easy for us to sit here in our towers and proclaim that the schools should be implementing it into their lessons and the GCSE's should be rehashed (It'd put me out of a job if they could all qualify under 16, but I wouldn't complain if it meant a tech-savvy generation), but bear in mind that there are a significant number of students who simply find it hard to understand the mechanics of Excel and that is all they'll require for their careers. Sure, make the GCSE harder, but make sure that the students who need it are getting their Microsoft Office courses and perhaps we should be dishing out ECDL's, Functional Skills or Key Skills for the students who will only grasp Office with exceptional amounts of guidance.

    I'd be curious to discover peoples experiences of education, because in the Functional Skills syllabus for example they cover basics like anti-virus and security, copyright\fair use, search skills, basic fundamentals of the actual computer itself... But when you bear in mind you have perhaps an hour a week with students over 36 weeks (If you're lucky and they all attend) and a lot of them will require an extensive amount of time to cover Excel alone (You have no idea how complex most students who know nothing of ICT by this point find Excel, it's exactly the same as teaching an older individual who's not had to touch a computer for 30 years of their working life)... Well you get the idea and it's understandable that perhaps some teaching staff (whatever the qual) skip the syllabus and focus on what is going to be tested in the final paper.

    Not that kids want to do ICT anyway. A lot of the ones I teach weren't actually aware of how much ICT affects them or what ICT entails, so I like to steal the more simple to understand stories from El Reg and BBC and talk about them in sessions just to make them aware of what exactly ICT encompasses. At the start of year, 1/20 of my students perhaps knew what the point of anti-virus was, let alone malware. Now almost all of them know at least of keyloggers, the risks involved when breaking copyright, how to look after a computer and safely use them and most importantly that technology is in general for more than a nice word processor and perhaps drawing indecent images in MS Paint... Better that than let them just go away thinking that MS Office is the extent of knowledge they'll ever need and it's a shame that all their final exam will ask them to do is find some information on a website and know how to use Autosum...

  10. E 2

    Guess what else does not belong in universities?

    Business schools do not belong in universities.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    IT teaching in NZ schools crap too

    My son recently earned credits to pass computing at NCEA Level 2. The work arrived on a 3.5" floppy disk. . We didn't even have a machine in the house that still had a working floppy drive. To pass involved not much more than a little copy and paste and nesting some folders. What a joke.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Linux

    MS office for 12 year olds

    As someone who has recently stumbled into ICT teaching after 20 years in mainstream IT I'm shocked to see how easy, deficient and largerly irrelevant it is. It's no wonder that several leading university's now black list ICT A levels as being not academically rigourous enough.

    When I did Computing O'level way back when in 1979 topics included practical programming assesments (BASIC), logic circuits, processor components (ALU's registers etc). Now ICT spends several lessons teaching kids how to make the background a nice shady blue in powerpoint.

    And they say the exams haven't been dumbed down .........

    And the penguin because real operating systems still have a command prompt

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A level fail

    My lad did ICT GCSE - but never got the results despite numerous requests to and assurances from the school.

    Went on to A level was ranked as "best student" and told he was doing well and should expect "better than C" half way through year one. End of year exam "AS" level he was still the best, the only one not to get "U" (effectively fail), he got "E" (officially a pass but might as well be a fail).

    As a result the school decided not to run year 2 of the course so blowing his prospect of completing the course he signed up for and perhaps getting an improved grade. This is in the best state school in the area and he's not thick.

    GCSE course work was garbage. For example, he made a website and used CSS for navigation buttons, that got rejected by the teachers who told him to use Flash instead!

    They were supposed to use Dreamweaver but that's a product designed for professionals who would expect a few days full time commercial training. The kids got "here's the program, get on with it". It's like saying: nuclear physics is on the curriculum for A level physics so let's fire up the school's particle accelerator.

    Apart from that there was a strong bias towards Microsoft Office Suite - but the teachers only had superficial knowledge, my lad ended up showing teachers how to use Excel.

    "A" level material was extremely dull, I'm sure some smart educationalists would defend it as "highly relevant to a real workplace environment". They are wrong but even if it were true, if it's so dull the students don't get engaged and enthusiastic you'll never get the best out of them.

    Like just about everyone else in public sector, the teachers have been feather-bedded, allowed to get lazy on high salaries/benefits packages. Very few would last long in a real job. And I'd not last a day in a teaching job now they've let standards of discipline fall so low that the teachers primary role has become keeping order - so they don't need to know much about the subjects they're supposed to be teaching.

  14. JB

    Times change

    It was called Computer Studies when I did it back in the 80s. We had a two-speed class then, the brighter kids wrote programs, the other kids played hangman or Elite.

    I think teaching school kids programming is useless, that's something they should be encouraged to discover rather than having shoved down their necks. ICT should be about how to use computer to solve everyday problems, and should be incorporated into every lesson.

  15. RW
    Boffin

    Training vs education

    In every discussion of education that I've read, there's no distinction made between training and education sensu strictu. You can train a monkey, but you can't educate him.

    Learning to touch type is a form of training. Learning that in Algol, statements end with semicolon is training. But learning that sometimes a bubble sort is appropriate, but other times a QuickSort, is education.

    Learning to wear underpants is training. Becoming familiar with the Classics is education because of the general lessons to be drawn from them.

    Learning to "do typography" in Wurd is training, but internalizing Bringhurst's "The Elements of Typographic Style" is education.

    Learning to spell is training (for the most part). Learning to write coherent prose is education.

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