Pope says gravity proves technology can't supplant God
The Pope has warned the faithful of the folly of thinking that technology could replace the almighty. Pope Benedict, speaking at a Palm Sunday Mass to kick off Holy Week, noted that mankind had always sought to become "like God". But, Reuters reports, Pope Benedict said: "Mankind has managed to accomplish so many things: we can …
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"Man should abandon hopes of being like God...
"...if he wants to have a relationship with God."
So Man should abandon hopes of being like someone's mythical sky fairy in order to "have a relationship" with said mythical sky fairy?
I sense a circular argument here...
Man / Woman / God
Surely this is proof God must be a woman.
Man and God could not have a relationship if God was male.
Sky fairy?
I think maybe you made that description up yourself didn't you?
Where on earth did you get these ideas? God lives in the sky? The devil carries a gardening implement?
I think maybe you just sleep easier when you can write it all off as childish mythology?
@Ivor 1
"I think maybe you just sleep easier when you can write it all off as childish mythology?"
Err, WTF? What makes you think that I lose any sleep over this at all?
It's the "believers" who worry because they have been convinced that if they don't do X or say Y or behave like Z that they're they're damned to some Nasty Place(tm) instead of going to some Nice Place(tm)
PS Try looking at http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sky%20fairy for definitions of "sky fairy" dating back at least 5 years.
none
You and all your brethren provide as much evidence as all other childish mythology so why not put it into the same class?
Bible proves god is male
I had reason to read Leviticus 18 in the King James variant of the
Christian bible. L-18 is the chapter the anti-homosexual people point to. It
bans the following three combinations.
1) man on man
2) man on animal
3) woman on animal
Does not say a thing about woman on woman. The christian god must be a guy:)
I've never understood this
See, this is something I've never understood: Why do so many heterosexual guys object so strongly to gay men (who pose a negative threat to them; the more gay guys there are in the world, the more women there are left to go around the het guys), yet practically embrace the thought of gay women (who are competing directly with them for the same resource)?
Beer, because there's no cake icon.
become "like God"?
Exactly how is someone who doesn't believe in a god supposed to be wanting to become like god?
Science is about finding out how the universe works by examining and testing it, rather than by taking tribal legends created thousands of years ago as infallible.
Technology is about building on scientific knowledge to make useful tools.
Neither of those require any gods in the process.
complexes
Scientific discoveries in the last 100 years make it appear that humankind are just microscopic, insignificant specks of conciousness, in a unimaginably vast and complex universe.
The pope's beliefs, on the other hand, have it that we are special favourites of the ultimate big guy, around which all things were created.
Who has the bigger complex about themselves?
Because you've "Gotta Serve Somebody"
"Exactly how is someone who doesn't believe in a god supposed to be wanting to become like god?"
Pride.
We all have it and wanting to become like god is where pride takes us. Being atheists didn't immunise Stalin or Pol Pot.
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/gotta-serve-somebody
Being atheists didn't immunise Stalin or Pol Pot.
And being religeous doesn't immunise the kiddie fiddlers (though in their own minds I'm sure they believe it does).
You can tell they're getting desperate
You know that it's the beginning of the end when christians start relying on something that they previously regarded as heresy to prove that their god exists!
But
But gravity isn't powerful. It's the weakest of the four forces. Even the whole mass of the earth pulling down on my sandwich can easily be counter-acted by my arms...
For How Long?
Tell you what, I'll wager your next month's pay you can't keep your arms raised forever, or more probably, more than an hour without external support, ergo, gravity wins and you lose once again.
Now, apply that to the Pope's message about Man trying to be like God and you're on the right track...
Mine's the one with the Bible in the pocket...
I eagerly await...
... you throwing the sandwich into orbit!
I'd take that bet.
I don't know about the original poster, but for a month's pay I'd certainly be willing to hold my arms up for an hour.
Trying to hold them up forever has a few flaws though, such as the end of the universe, and the fact that I could use that forever to earn more than one month's pay.
Drugs permitted in Vatican?
I'm curious. Does this mean that mind-bending substances are allowed in the Vatican? (or do they just turn a blind eye to those rules, as they do to so many others?)
Oh dear
There are still grown adults who believe in the supernatural. How embarrasing.
You can't really blame him..
it's part of the job description.
In other news, bears...
I'm wondering...
What do you define as the supernatural? Let's say, for instance, you decide that anything that is observable, repeatable, and measurable/quantifiable is "natural," and everything else isn't. Obviously, this means that God is "supernatural," as are ghosts, angels, and fairies. Feelings, on the other hand, are observable, repeatable, and measurable, so they are natural, as are microwaves, earthquakes, and indeed, gravity (we don't have to fully explain something for it to be "natural"). Ball lightning? Supernatural. It's been observed and repeated, but in no measurable or quantifiable way. Aliens? Same thing; repeated observations, but in no measurable way. Big bang? It's been measured by the drift of the universe, but it wasn't observed, and it has yet to be repeated, so it's supernatural, too. Evolution? Supernatural; regardless of evidence that exists, there are no creatures today that were observed to evolve. Even fruit flies, with their reproductive cycle of mere days, haven't turned into anything measurably different. Obviously Creationism is supernatural, too, as no one watched it happen. Stage magic? Not supernatural; while no one in the audience can measure or quantify how the tricks are performed, the performer (and possibly some staff) know exactly what's going on.
Feel free to disagree, of course, but I've yet to hear a better system for classifying "supernatural" and "not supernatural"... and I'm not saying my system is perfect, of course (insert jokes about "not observing your brain," etc.), but it's a decent working definition.
While I like your definition
I will argue the evolution point. While historical evolution can't (by definition) be directly observed, the fossil record does a prety good demonstration (yes there are gaps, but not nearly as many as a few decades ago, and while there isn't - and may never be - a direct link between two distanct branches on the life taxonomy tree, there are more than enough clear examples of moderate stretches of evolution).
For directly observed evolution, I will reference the fruit flies of your own statement, and numerous other lab and wild creatures (particularly ones with a fast lifespan and high reproduction and infant mortality rates).
To claim no evidence of evolution is, simply, willfull parochialism.
Nice straw man you've got there, did you make it yourself?
I see what you've done there: you've made up definitions for the purpose of having them fail. A fairly common tactic amongst the cleverer believers in something irrational.
@ ArmanX - Where would you place...
the e.coli observable evolution experiments for the last 23 years?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment
@LaeMing, Handle this!, and Cpt Blue Bear
@Handle this! and LaeMing - the fruit flies I mentioned (and the e. coli - cool article, by the way, my wife worked with e. coli for a while) easily show micro-evolution, but no macro-evolution. I know, muddying the waters, but the point is that while micro-evolution - changes within a species - has been observed, measured, and repeated, macro-evolution - a new species being formed - has not been observed, repeated, and measured. We don't know how many mutations need to occur until a new species is formed, for instance. Currently, not enough is known about the world around us to fully understand the origin of life; it is, thus, "supernatural," by my definition. I'm not saying evolution is wrong, just that it has yet to be explained.
@Cpt Blue Bear - If you say so; but I see you've crafted your own in return! How nice! I hear that's a fairly common tactic amongst the cleverer believers in something irrational, but I wouldn't worry.
I never wanted to be like god
What is the point of being a piece of fiction argued and fought about for thousands of years. Technology may not have prevented the earthquake in Japan, but neither did the invisible beard in the sky. The pope is half way down a slide into irrelevance. If he wants to draw attention to that by trying to be controversial then he is welcome.
Our Bread-Maker who art in the kitchen. Morphy Richards be thy name. Thy ping will come, thy work be done on time as it smells good already. Give us this day our daily bread.
Die Infidel Heretic Scum!
How dare you utter the cursed name of M***** R******* in this Forum?! Every right-thinking person knows Panasonic is the One True Bread Maker Maker!
Hand Grenade of Antioch, for the Holy War effort .....
@Flocke
True. And technology never claimed it could stop an earthquake yet God is apparently omnipotent. The difference is that if technology could have prevented said earthquake then it would have done whereas God, if He exists, is a proper bastard.
"become like God"
I thought God made us in his image? Did I misread something?
I know he's been lording (or should that be "Lording") it over us ever since with perverse and often contradictory arbitrary limitations but that's because he's patently a sadistic, egomaniac, psychopath.
@ac - why bother ?
"I thought God made us in his image? ... but that's because he's patently a sadistic, egomaniac, psychopath".
Why bother insulting someone whom you don't believe exists unless you'd rather have a god made in your image than you being made in His ?
You know when...
...you've made God in your own image when he hates all the same things you do.
Why the hell do people even listen to him?
If I went out on my balcony and started preaching to people about my amazing friend who performs magic tricks, lives in the sky and has a bunch of fairies flying around doing stuff for him I'd be sectioned...Yet this nutter does it and gets hundreds of millions of people to give their money and hang off of every word.
The title is required, and must contain letters and/or digits.
It's the way he tells them.
@Micky 1 Re: Why the hell do people even listen to him? #
What does Lady Gaga have to do with any of this?
An interesting interpretation
To me natural disasters show our technology hasn't progressed far enough and we should stop letting the those who believe fairies hold us back with scaremongering that our behaviour will make the beared sky man angry.
Yes - but's it's not about what you think is it?
It's to do with how much longer a parasitic church can extract a free lifestyle from the gullible and ill-educated/ desperate people that believe what the pope says.
I wonder how long it will be before people and countries refuse to acknowledge the vatican as a sovereign state (or whatever the right wording is) and demand that it behaves itself (you know - like a bank or something) - for starters in handing over their child-abusing leaders and members for fair trial, rather than spending efforts in hiding them.
Alternatively if they started living as they should (not surrounded by gold and riches), sold all their non-religious items (and by that I mean everything aside from a few churches, relics and a change of clothes) and give their money to the needy.
The church (and I suspect I am not just talking about the catholic church) should be ashamed of themselves.
ttfn
The Church is ashamed of itself.
Started when St Peter came face to face with the fact his denial of Jesus was a betrayal.
"The church (and I suspect I am not just talking about the catholic church) should be ashamed of themselves."
The Church is ashamed of itself. Just attend in order to observe a communion service and check what is said and I think that you'll agree the Church is ashamed of itself, as it should be.
More problems are caused in the world by unrepentant sinners who don't acknowledge they're sinners than by repentant sinners who acknowledge what we are. But you won't make the Church any less bad than it currently is from the outside, e.g. by helping the Church increase on her current level of giving to the poor as you suggest. You'll have to be inside the Church in order to do that, but to go inside from outside you'll have to acknowledge your own sin and your need to turn away from your sin first.
@Copsewood
Bollocks. We are all thinking people who self-analyse constantly. If I feel that I'm doing something wrong then I stop doing it whereas Catholics tend to accept that they do wrong, confess it, then do it again. The confession absolves them of guilt and assures them a place in Heaven but it doesn't stop them being cunts. Your assertion that I have to go into church to acknowledge my own failings (or as you call it "sin") is complete and utter bollocks. The church does not have the monopoly on morality and it actually offends me to hear this kind of crap from a bunch of pederasts.
Repeating myself.
I've said this before, and it is worth repeating.
Personal development of any worth has to start by looking for truth. Trying to be good while you are lying to yourself doesn't work - there are too many ways that it can go wrong.
Mistake?
"...media students to argue among themselves. Afterall, they're unlikely to bump into either theologians or physicists."
That can't be right, surely there's at least one physicist or priest(ess) that likes burgers?
The Pope Says ...
Benedict also pointed out that for all Man's resourcefulness, recent natural disasters have highlighted that Man is not all-powerful.
I'd have thought that this should be a call for us to learn more science so we can try and mitigate these disasters, not less.
Or is he upset that mankind is using it's ingenuity to try and counteract God's rightful punishment of the heathen Orientals.
and reinforces the ironic nature of God...
So we should bring down the flood defences, cultivate on the hills ad mountain-sides with no thought for erosion and mudslides, let raging forest fires burn till THEY wish to stop, and switch off all volcano warning systems JUST to appear as sheepish as all those who DO blindly follow that which they assume is the right truth for them?
Instead, we are to wave bibles at those tsunamis next time eh? Or welcome them with open arms as gifts from on high??
What happened to "God helps those who help themselves..."?
Those of certain faiths need to REALLY look around before uttering such gibberish...
...and don't forget...
... to remove the lightning rods from all the church steeples.
The next time someone asks you if you're a god...
...you say "YES!"
God's tsunami certainly showed us who's boss!
"Benedict also pointed out that for all Man's resourcefulness, recent natural disasters have highlighted that Man is not all-powerful."
It's hard to know where to start with this...
This God who supposedly exists... why did he just do what a made up being would do when a country's people are threatened by killer waves? (i.e. nothing).
Perhaps he thought that the best way to get people into church and praise him was by killing a few of them off.
Here's my advice to God:
1) If you're going to exist, please start having a measurable effect on reality. It would greatly help those people who currently end up on the losing side of arguments when asked to prove your existence.
2) If you're going to exist, could you *please* sort out all your warring followers? They really can't agree on anything about you. They're all bleating about being your chosen people, and a few of them go around detonating people who don't agree.
Ta lots,
X
@cnapan: 2 prayers well received
"Here's my advice to God:"
1) If you're going to exist, please start having a measurable effect on reality. It would greatly help those people who currently end up on the losing side of arguments when asked to prove your existence."
If God chooses to make his existence unprovable to his creatures, does anyone ever "win" or "lose" such arguments ? Like in your appeal, Christians also pray for miracles and occasionally these happen and often they don't. The greatest miracle is something coming out of nothing - us being here to discuss this, but interpretations of "cogito ergo sum" will vary.
Because we do very badly playing at being god when we do try, the world would be worse if we, rather than God, were to decide which miracles should occur. Sometimes prayed for miracles occurring (e.g. the miraculous and major healing of someone extremely close to me) bolster faith, and sometimes hard-prayed for miracles not occurring (e.g. the expected death last week of a grandchild of close friends after 3 days of very much better than expected life, due to a heart condition diagnosed in the womb) also bolster faith because we should care more about the Kingdom to come (including heaven) than for life here and determined prayer can help focus our minds, our intentions and our help for others into that direction.
"2) If you're going to exist, could you *please* sort out all your warring followers? They really can't agree on anything about you. They're all bleating about being your chosen people, and a few of them go around detonating people who don't agree."
Christians and others also say similar prayers to yours daily. But a God who gives us free will is more creative than one who doesn't. So differences of opinion are OK, detonating people isn't. Continue praying along similar lines and maybe you'll believe this prayer with enough determination to become a peacemaker, described by Jesus as "blessed" in the sermon on the mount.
As to tsunamis and other natural disasters and whether God cares, do you imagine you could have figured out how to go about creating a universe with laws of nature of your choosing, resulting in the evolution of intelligent beings capable of exercising free will and done a better job of it than the universe you observe ?
none
"As to tsunamis and other natural disasters and whether God cares, do you imagine you could have figured out how to go about creating a universe with laws of nature of your choosing, resulting in the evolution of intelligent beings capable of exercising free will and done a better job of it than the universe you observe ?"
Yes.
Next question
Ummm just one small flaw in all the arguments so far...
... as epitomised by this glorious irrationality.
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Because we do very badly playing at being god when we do try, the world would be worse if we, rather than God, were to decide which miracles should occur.
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If you believe in God then you believe that he is in control of what we try and what we don't try, after all he is all seeing and all knowing. We are created in his image, and with the wisdom he imparted too us. We can only advance as he has planned for us to advance.
This has to lead us to the following conclusions :-
We can only be bad at being God because that is Gods plan. Therefore if our bad attempts at being God make the world worse, it is Gods plan that the world should be made worse.
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