back to article Fukushima on Thursday: Prospects starting to look good

The story of the quake- and tsunami-stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear powerplant continues to unfold, with reports suggesting that the situation with respect to the three damaged reactors at the plant may soon be stabilised without serious consequences. The focus of attention has now moved to problems at a pool used to keep …

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      1. V 3

        Really? Where please....

        I have read the previous reports very carefully and can find no reference to any such figures.

        One report referred to the 8.9M (as it was then) at the epicentre, but the epicentre value is besides the point - it is the value at the site that is relevant.

        And if the figures that @Steve X quotes are correct, the acceleration at the site, or around the site - he did not quote a site figure - may have been in excess of the acceleration at the epicentre (or at least of the figures I have seen quoted for the acceleration at the epicentre)

        Which article is it in? (This is a neutral question - I am simply curious - I can't find it.)

    1. Steve X

      Figures

      According to Wikipedia, Fukushima Unit 1 was designed for peak ground acceleration of 0.18g. According the the USGS website the peak acceleration at siesmic stations around Fukushima varied from 0.3g to 0.6g. I'd say that confortably fits the definition of "hugely exceeded ". The tsunami wave topped the sea wall that was supposed to protect the generators, so that certainly "exceeded" the design parameters, whether that was a "huge" excess is somewhat academic at present.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          @ V 3

          Wait, so you're saying that the wall was somehow designed to block waves taller than itself? Design only becomes implementation once it's complete, up until then it's still design, it's not like they didn't know how big the wall was when they built it. If the wave was bigger than the sea wall than it exceeded the design parameters.

          1. V 3

            @Anonymous Coward

            >If the wave was bigger than the sea wall than it exceeded the design parameters.

            That's like saying "if the earthquake knocked the house down, it must have been because it exceeded the design parameters for the house." That clearly does not follow. What it did was knock the actual house down.

            Do you KNOW what the designed height of the wall was? No - you know that the ACTUAL height, as it was built, was less than the height of the wave. And that is all you know.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              @ V3

              You didn't read my post properly, I said design only becomes implementation once it's complete. If the wall was built to a certain height then that was it's design, design's often change on the fly during a project's life cycle. We are not talking about estimated strength or some other modelled parameter, we're talking about height. The engineers building the plant will have known full well how tall the wall was built (I'm sure they had distance finders) so that WAS their design, and it was exceeded.

              1. V 3

                @Anonymous Coward

                > I said design only becomes implementation once it's complete.

                And a very puzzling thing to say it is... Because it makes no sense - and surely it is not what you mean.

                The claim that you really want to make is that the implementation IS the design, for parameters such as height. But of course, that is not true. It is just a bit harder to make a mistake

                >The engineers building the plant will have known full

                >well how tall the wall was built (I'm sure they had

                >distance finders) so that WAS their design, and it was exceeded.

                The builders may well have known how tall it was - probably - but that doesn't mean it was the designed height!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Ground acceleration

        "According to Wikipedia, Fukushima Unit 1 was designed for peak ground acceleration of 0.18g. According the the USGS website the peak acceleration at siesmic stations around Fukushima varied from 0.3g to 0.6g"

        Interestingly, in the recent Christchurch quake, which was only a 6.3, they recorded ground acceleration exceeding 2G. That quake was very shallow and practically right next to the city. Their previous 7.1 last September had ground acceleration of over 1.2G. So, while the Japan quake was large, the ground acceleration was not that high, and they were lucky that the epicentre was some distance offshore (which of course contributed to the more destructive tsunami).

        The original design spec does not seem that stringent, and I doubt whether it would comply with current codes. The building codes for any future plants would need to take into account secondary damage scenarios.

    2. Jon 52

      quake vs tsunami

      The quake didnt do that much damage so the arguemnt 8.2vs 9.0 is slightly less important than the tsunami predicion. It was 7m not the 6.5m in spec, it was the basement flooding that meant loss of backup power (a lot of switch gear in the basement.)

      If they had thought to put the generators higher in the building to prevent flooding it would have been better

  1. Lomax
    WTF?

    Are you for real?

    "Fukushima on Thursday: Prospects starting to look good" - Earth calling Lewis Page! Did you watch the video of those desperate and futile water dropping attempts? Four drops of 7,500 liters each, most of which missed its target by a mile. Each of these pools require 150,000 liters to safely cover the fuel rods. They also had to abandon the attempt at using a police water cannon to spray water into the spent fuel pools as radiation levels are now so high that they cannot get close enough with the truck. I don't know what planet you are on, but the reality here on earth, Mr Page, is that there has been no significant change in the situation at all - which under the circumstances can only be considered a complete and utter failure.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      Did you read page 2?

      You didn't, did you?

      1. Ian Stephenson
        Pint

        Im surprised...

        .. they even read the title before frothing.

        <---- the froth I like.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      Yes he's for real, but are you?

      That would be the water canon that has now returned to the scene would it?

      You do understand that the "increased radiation levels" that have been seen so far have all come from isotopes with extremely short half-lives (e.g. hours or days) and that until the plant is fully under control this kind of withdraw/return stuff is going to go on as needed?

      Naturally things aren't being helped by the scientifically remedial media shouting "We're all going to die" because they think radiation=abandon area for 1000+ years.

      If you can't be bothered to take the time to understand the science, please stop bothering to comment too.

      I vote that anyone in the media who can't take the time to learn about the science be banned from using anything more complicated than a pencil and pad. That way we might get some more balanced reporting.

      1. Lomax
        Boffin

        Short-lived?

        Plutonium Pu-239 has a half life of 24,000 years.

        1. smylar
          FAIL

          @lomax

          Who said anything about Plutonium - only one reactor is running with Plutonium (MOX fuel) - I believe it is reactor three - besides it is pretty much a non issue unless the core detonates spectacularly (unlikely) - it being a heavy metal so likely to remain non gaseous, so it will sit in the core and be easily dealt with. Long half-life materials generally are more stable, therefore less radioactive, though I am unsure how radioactive plutonium is (different with different isotopes anyway Pu-240 is more radioactive but has a much shorter half life).

          It is Indeed the short lived stuff causing the problem as they are isotopes of light elements in a gaseous form allowing it to escape easily

          1. Lomax
            Boffin

            @smylar

            Get your facts straight before you attempt to patronise me with your limited knowledge. The problem here is not so much the cores themselves as the spent fuel pools. There are currently about 1500 fuel rod assemblies in the cores of reactors 1,2 and 3 together - but there are more than 11,000 fuel rod assemblies in the storage pools. In addition to the six pools inside the reactor buildings, there is a large storage pool elsewhere on the site. The fuel has been re-stacked by TEPCO in order to fit more fuel in the pools. This implies the use of boron separators and/or boronic acid in the cooling water, particularly in the densely packed pool of reactor building #4 - which in addition to large quantities of older fuel contains 500 assemblies which were only recently removed from the core (and which are more active than the older spent fuel).

            Now, Japan has run out of supplies of boronic acid and are awaiting shipments from abroad. And if, as seems to be the case, some pools have been completely drained, the boron sheeting will have been destroyed. Because of this dumping sea water is not likely to be effective in shutting down activity, in fact, since water acts as a neutron moderator, it could well have the opposite effect. At the very least, if the fuel has been damaged by heat, dropping water will release steam containing radioactive material from the fuel rods. It is a desperate last ditch attempt and little else. The fuel would need to be moved but the location of the pools (they are on the top level of the buildings) and the damage to the manipulating equipment (i.e. it is completely gone) makes this next to impossible.

            According to Tokyo Electric, 32 of the 514 fuel rod assemblies in the storage pond at reactor No. 3 contain MOX fuel. MOX fuel, especially after being used, also contains large quantities of Pu-240 as well as Pu-239.

        2. Ryan Kendall
          Pint

          Heavy Metal can fly

          Unless the uranium oxide pellets are exposed from their casings, and material is on fire, i doubt it will go anywaye.

          http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation

          1. smylar

            Fire

            Yes, indeed it can fly, powdered plutonium/uranium that is on fire is a problem. So far there has been no indication the cores are on fire and are mostly intact.

            But you would still need to combine it with a really big fire, like the Chernobyl graphite fire to throw it far and wide

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Fire?

              You mean like the ones they've been battling at Fukushima?

            2. Ian Stephenson
              Flame

              Re: Fire

              I'd be interested in seeing how you manage to get Uranium Oxide or Plutonium Oxide to burn in an Oxygen atmosphere.

              It's one of the reasons to use the oxide rather than the metal or other salt itself.

              Bad analogy coming up:

              Take magnesium ribbon burn it - very pretty bright flame.

              Now take magnesium oxide, yes the ash from the ribbon will do, burn it - what do you mean you can't?

              Now Iron oxide/Aluminium mixed is a special case- I dont think that Zirconium/MOx produces a thermite reaction. Bloody stupid design if it did.

        3. Daniel B.
          Boffin

          @Lomax

          ... and Plutonium can't fly by itself, can it?

          It's all explained, right there, in page 2 I believe. It also explaines why the ugly stuff was able to "fly" from Chernobyl; I don't see flying graphite outside Fukushima No. 1, do you?

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Ok, Let's all quote irrelevant figures.

          Rb-82 is used in some cardiac PET scans to assess myocardial perfusion. It has a half-life of 1.273 minutes. I can wiki too!

      2. Anonymous Coward
        FAIL

        Re: Yes he's for real, but are you?

        "That would be the water canon that has now returned to the scene would it?"

        What? They're using holy water now as well?!

  2. arkhangelsk

    In a world of despair

    ,,, it is interesting how the facts, or most of the same facts, can be stated in such an optimistic fashion compared to the rest of the world's media.

    If only for that, Lewis should be applauded here. Gloom and doom doesn't do anyone much good. Let's see if they recover after they get main power going.

    1. Psyx

      "Gloom and doom doesn't do anyone much good."

      You'd prefer sunny optimism in your reporting of industrial accidents and in the design of nuclear reactors?

      I think I'll certainly stick with abject pessimism in the later, and I'd prefer impartiality in the first.

      1. arkhangelsk

        I'm all for

        ...impartiality in the international investigation when the dust clears.

        But while the struggle is still ongoing, I'm actually for reports that are truthful (as perceived) or even a bit on the sunny side. Panic is a legitimate concern, and there's little else pessimistic information would do anyway.

        Right now, all else being even, in general foreign experts are considered reliable, while Japanese experts are considered to have conflicts of interest. While I won't deny the Japanese have conflicts, the foreign experts are working on extremely little information (a fact they blame the Japanese for, but nevertheless leaves them poorly qualified to comment), and worst of all, have no responsibility and yet a conflict of interest.

        To be blunt, they can hardly lose by making the most pessimistic assessments that are even marginally supported by the facts at hand.

        If things don't go to their worst-case, they won't get castigated. They will just mumble "Well, we were lucky" or "Good work, Japanese". Given our mentality, the world will forgive them for "conservative, worst case thinking". Any panics their irresponsible, ill-substantiated statements cause will be blamed on the Japanese nuclear authorities for "not being open enough". No skin off their backs.

        (And no, giving them more information is not the answer, because now they'll use the increased information to make worse case assessments now given the aura of being more substantiated by more info).

        It is only if they try to be more optimistic, and things go bad could they get castigated for "underestimating the situation", not using 'proper', worst-case thinking. Blah.

        The media, not even being experts, have even less responsibility and are even more inclined to go worst case for the same reasons, plus of course that the worst case has better news value.

        It is only those that are actually in it that are pressed under conflicting, instead of one-way forces. In such an environment, to be one of the minority that tries to impose a calmer interpretation on what's going on is an act of bravery that deserves only praise. Even if Fukushima goes Chernobyl tomorrow, I stand by my statement.

        I don't always agree with Lewis, but nice series, man!

  3. TeeCee Gold badge
    Badgers

    Tomorrow:

    Huge mushroom seen over Fukushima.

    Lewis writes an article for El Reg pointing out it's nothing to worry about, it's actually an invasion attempt by giant alien fungi and Godzilla's been called in to sort it out.

    Icon, 'cos this is all Web commentardary on croudsourced news fluff and we'll only know who's really right once the dust settles. Ideally non-radioactive dust at that.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      re: Tomorrow

      Nuclear reactor != Nuclear bomb hence != Mushroom cloud. But hey, don't let reality get in the way of some good hyperbole.

      1. Basil Short_Trousers

        re: re: Tomorrow #

        @Anonymous Coward who incorrectly stated. " Nuclear reactor != Nuclear bomb hence != Mushroom cloud".

        That statement is a misunderstanding of the science. If a reactor core ever reached criticality (which shouldn't happen at Fukushima), the heat released by the nuclear reaction would cause the fissile material to expand, which would make the nuclear reaction sub-critical again within seconds. In other words, there would be a small localised explosion, but the act of exploding would stop any further nuclear reaction (which is nothing like a bomb).

        A good example is Chernobyl where criticality happened and the explosion ruined the reactor building, but that was it, it was nothing like a nuclear bomb and there wasn't a mushroom cloud. The radiation that spread from Chernobyl was not due to the explosion, but was due to the graphite fire that lasted for days afterwards (graphite was unique to the Chernobyl reactors).

        Lewis Page's Fukushima articles offer some clarity in the fog of media-led hysteria and ill-informed commenting, they should be broadcast around the Internet.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          FAIL

          re: re: re: Tomorrow

          Er, your statement is a misunderstanding of relational operators. != means 'does not equal', I just didn't think I'd need to explain that on an I.T site.

          1. Basil Short_Trousers

            re: re: re: re: Tomorrow → #

            Oh yes, oops! Oh well... I can't see the relational operators for the nuclear commentaries :-)

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          graphite

          I'm no expert, but wikipedia tells me that there is graphite in the core of Dungeness B,

          Hartlepool, Heysham 1, Heysham 2, Hinkley Point B, Hunterston B and Torness.

          I believe not having secondary containment was unique to Chernobyl (or Russian designs anyway).

          There also appears to be cracks appearing in the graphite.

          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5149650.stm

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @ TeeCee

      You muppet.

      You are the classic symptom of the actual problem with this incident; stirring up pure hysteria purely because it's a nuke. You can't tell the difference between power nuke and bomb nuke, but you go spouting off anyway.

      For the record, I'm not a huge fan of nuke power, and this incident is hardly great news, but I at least know a real problem from one whipped up by the mostly ignorant story-hunting media.

      1. TeeCee Gold badge
        Grenade

        Re: @ TeeCee

        You don't do sarcasm then?

        I was trying to tap into the "OMFG EVERYWUN WILL DIES" hysteria elsewhere (I see you got that bit) while contrasting it with the rather OTT the other way "Keep calm and carry on" message from Lewis, which even I (as a bit of a fan of nuclear power) am beginning to have trouble taking seriously.

        Personally I reckon the real truth will end up being somewhere in the middle, toward the "nowhere near as bad as it could have been, but not great" end of things.

        I thought the tone should have flagged that firmly in the "heavy sarcasm" category of things. Sorry if that didn't come across well, I never guessed that there were people round here who thought that Alien fungi and Godzilla were ever likely to crop up as actual reported events in a serious news piece.

        Also note that I never even suggested that there might be a nuclear explosion. It turned out to really be a giant alien, remember?

        1. Ammaross Danan
          FAIL

          Problem with sarcasm

          "You don't do sarcasm then?"

          The problem with sarcasm is context and point-of-view. Even though you /meant/ it as sarcasm, doesn't mean that the frothies won't take it as a launching point for validation. I could state that "after a few thousand writes, your flash will die!" and any SSD frothies will rally behind me. I completely ignore the wear-leveling and the like that make my otherwise-true statement short-sighted. Commentards may not realize that a nuclear reaction intended for a bomb is impossible in a BWR reactor, as many of the key components are entirely absent. However, not everyone knows, even remotely, how a nuclear bomb works. They don't even know what "heavy water" is. Therefore, off-base comments are sources for scaremongering, be they sarcastic or not.

  4. jacckk
    Happy

    The title is required, and must contain letters and/or digits.

    Makes me want to get a job at a nuclear reactor actually.

  5. byrresheim

    Surely you are jesting?

    "... but it might mean areas having to be abandoned for lengthy periods as occurred after Chernobyl."

    That has been a quarter of a century ago, and most of the area is still unfit for human consumption. And that was a largely unpopulated area, not a coastal strip with an enormous population density and an equally great importance for the overall productivity of an industrialised nation.

    While I sincerely hope that you are right in your optimistic assessment of the situation, I can only stand in awe before your misundersimate of the consequences in case things continue to go wrong.

    1. lee harvey osmond

      "Chernobyl ... most of the area is still unfit for human consumption."

      That doesn't add up.

      If I was in the habit of eating soil, I'm not sure how bothered I'd be about how radioactive it was.

    2. Naughtyhorse

      and most of the area is still unfit for human consumption....

      Yet some people returned there 20 years ago...

      and they are still there...

      that is to say they are still alive and there :D

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Where's my mushroom cloud icon?

    'Fukushima on Thursday: Prospects starting to look good'

    Seeing as earlier on in the week it was a 'triumph for nuclear power', things seem to be rapidly deteriorating.

    'but it might mean areas having to be abandoned for lengthy periods as occurred after Chernobyl.'

    Hang on: Earlier in the week, Chernobyl wasn't a serious accident, according to your article. Now it is? I'm all for absorbing these facts, but they're changing so rapidly...

    'But hopefully the facts speak for themselves.'

    As opposed to prior articles, then. A step in the right direction for journalism.

    1. nichomach
      Thumb Up

      I'm reminded of...

      ...the (possibly apocryphal) Japanese serviceman who knew the war in the Pacific was lost because the "victories" kept getting closer to Japan...

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    how much does the Arab world pay

    to stoke the nuclear fears? What is wrong with people that are so programmed against nuclear power that they want, no..NEED the disaster to be epic and deadly and terrible for centuries to justify their phobias?

    I can understand weirdness from religion, like saying God punished Japan with tsunamis because of tentacle hentai. That attitude gets the derision it deserves. But the "religion" of the anti-nuclear crowd, hyping and hoping and praying that each positive fact they hear is wrong, dreaming that the Japanese will be "punished" for daring to use nuclear power in defiance of Mother Earth, seems to be allowed a free pass for its ignorance and dangerous stupidity.

    If one were to develop a solar facility that had the average daily output of a single one of these reactors (it'd have to be, what, a n eighth the size of California?) and hit it with tsunamis and earthquakes, the pollution damage of shattered glass, mirror coating foil, scalding steam (or whatever working fluid chosen) would instantly be greater than anything already or predicted to occur in Japan.

    Hit the Aswan or Three Gorges with the stresses of Fukushima and see how many millions of acres are destroyed, topsoil permanently eroded, and people killed. We won't even touch what would happen if this had gone off in the Gulf of Mexico, Persian Gulf or any South American oil fields.

    But that's all common sense. Hippies killed more of the planet driving out-of-tune VW microbuses to a single anti nuke protest than Three Mile Island did in its worst dreams. People b*tching about nuclear radiation crank their cancer potentials an order of magnitude higher than a Japanese downwinder everytime they pack a bowl with Mexican ditch-weed.

    Stupid is as stupid does. Gotta keep Saudi by-blows well funded with personal jets, designing artificial islands,and keep Al-Jazeera on the air. Jihad isn't cheap and the Middle East has nothing of value other than oil. A nuclear powered First World is the biggest threat they can imagine.

    Keep up the good work El Reg. While LP can be a bit snarky in his military appraisals (I hear him and 007 had some interesting discussions during their SBS commando academy days) his series of updates on the Japanese nuclear situation is spot on.

    Flames because that's what psychopathic nucleophobes fap to in their dreams.

    1. Willington

      @AC 14:51 GMT

      Thank you. There's so much phobia and scaremongering here from the anti-nuclear lobbyists I thought I was on the wrong site. It's nice to hear a reasonable voice again.

      1. Jolyon

        Reasonable?

        Did you reply to the wrong post by mistake?

        There's lots of perfectly rational discussion on here but suggesting anti-nuclear religions and conspiracies puts that post into a different category, surely?

        Mind you I don't think there are any anti-nuclear lobbyists here either (would seem like a curious backwater for their work) so maybe you are on the same wavelength.

    2. Intractable Potsherd
      Pint

      Thanks, AC ...

      ... that was an inspired post!

      <-- you probably need one of these now.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      fap incoming

      area of california = 423,970 km^2

      solar radiation = 1360 W m^2 (http://www.acrim.com/)

      so the solar radiation falling on 1/8 California at noon midsummer is of the order of 72,074,900 MegaWatts.

      Your solar power plant would have to be made out of wood to be that inefficient.

      A current solar thermal plant at spain needs 550 000 m^2 to produce 50 MW(http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jul/13/spain-solar-power). That is about 1/2 a square kilometer. So to make 500MW (the equivalent of a nuclear reactor would require 5 km^2 of califormia or about 1/100 000 of California). It would be in the middle of the desert where no-one would ever be bothered with it). And it would provide power when demant peaks (its all air-con down there), so in some ways more useful than a nuclear reactor that basically provides base-load.

      (Of course to get these sort of capital intensive things built we would have to figure out how to use it as a machine of war. Maybe someone could figure out how to fry sattelites with it when its not generating, and then the planet will fill up with them).

      So don't accuse the other side of "religion" if you yerself don't like "facts". Physics is harder than google+wikipedia.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @ jim 35

        You're right, physics is harder than google+wikipedia, but along the same lines the guardian does not qualify as an impartial source for any figures involving nuclear vs "renewable" power.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Flame

          Re: @ jim 35

          "You're right, physics is harder than google+wikipedia, but along the same lines the guardian does not qualify as an impartial source for any figures involving nuclear vs "renewable" power."

          How original: The Guardian is nothing but a playpen for hippies and eco-liberals because it's not run by some rich bloke with a "hawkish" editorial policy and an open invitation to 10 Downing Street. It seems to me, however, that they at least aggregate and redistribute quite a bit of useful data without any editorial icing on top, and it's merely a case of checking where they got it from, Wikipedia-style.

          But then it's just so easy to throw shit at such an organisation and watch like-"minded" people squeal with delight at the audacity of the "critique".

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            re: Re: @ jim 35

            You're an idiot if you think the guardian is any less biased than any other major media outlet, just because their editorial policy is aimed at a different section of society doesn't make them crusaders for truth and justice.

            1. JP19
              WTF?

              Read and comprehend

              Are you a moron? He admitted to the Guardian's bias.

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