back to article Lane Fox promises sub-£100 PCs

Martha Lane Fox is promising £98 computers to tempt the last remaining digital refuseniks in UK to get online. The machines, refurbed by Remploy, will come complete with telephone support, monitor, mouse and Linux software. Lane Fox, David Cameron's Digital Champion, told the Financial Times (subscription link): "Motivation …

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    1. Lee Dowling Silver badge

      Schools

      Because 99% of the curriculum-conforming software out there is Windows. And precisely 1% of the stuff on Linux etc. that *claims* to be "for kids" isn't curriculum-conforming (and is therefore a waste of time except for "spare time" activities - i.e. when a kid has finished their work). Look at 2Simple Software that produce tons of Windows programs - I could write any one in an afternoon with a graphic designer, but they are focused to certain parts of the curriculum, updated regularly, and are simple to learn. Shame they are Windows-only.

      I've worked in school IT since I left uni. The hardware and OS are basically completely the same. What matters is the end-user application software. There are precisely zero big-name educational suppliers selling Linux educational software, even when it's been written in a cross-platform library and allows them to pump out Windows and Mac versions from the same codebase.

      The stuff that *does* run is mostly generic applications (so OpenOffice *can* and *does* replace Office in many schools, and TuxPaint is incredibly popular in primary schools - because it effectively replaces the next-nearest equivalent which is RM Colour Magic) and that's sufficient for Internet research, writing notes and printing and some very basic tasks - they are the pens and pencils of the IT world, but what about the textboooks? IT is in *every* subject and there is a big fuss about linking into the curriculum content and there is nothing on Linux that even *tries* to do that. A brilliant piece of software with a million features is useless if it cost £100 and only satisfies one line of the curriculum. Instead a crappy, years-old, Quicktime-based point-and-click game designed for Windows 95 that DOES satisfy the curriculum effectively is worth a lot more, and a lot more investment in IT to get it to run.

      Some pilot schools are entirely Linux. This is usually done by, for example, buying a subscription to educational online content that has UK curriculum focus in all the subject areas (companies like Espresso Education specialise in selling schools Linux boxes that have Apache, Squid and 500Gb hard drives that download educational content overnight so the whole school can play a curriculum-aimed video / clip / game simultaneously the next morning - updated every day with every single change and news-relevant topics). Most schools hate that because it locks you into a particular service that you have to pay for every month and when you stop paying, you lose everything. So they stick with crappy, years-old, supported programs that they've owned for years, that are curriculum-oriented, that the teachers are familiar with and that run on anything Windows (with some tweaking).

      Software as a service is pushing into schools at the moment (hell, you're basically renting Windows now too, so why not either rent a whole system or move away and rent an online service?) and that's making educational software a bit worthless. But the largest manufacturer of interactive whiteboards (SmartBoard) has had Linux drivers and application software for years, and the hardware is all Linux-compatible (I push Linux into every school I can, where it suits their needs), and the infrastructure is Linux-compatible (you can logon to Windows Servers with Likewise Open quite easily from Linux), but the end-user application software isn't. It doesn't even exist. What does exist is one or two guy's ideas of what everyone should teach (and that's the worst thing you can assume of another teacher) and doesn't cover even the most basic of needs.

      When all schools are on Software as a Service, then 99% of the thin-clients, servers, etc. they use to do that will be Linux, because it really doesn't matter any more. But the fact is that the applications ONLY exist on Windows, at the moment, despite there being a Linux market. You should have gone to BETT in Kensington Olympia last week - there's not a mention of anything non-Windows in their software section and what looks like rubbish to you and me is worth THOUSANDS to the teachers because it covers their portion of the curriculum completely and is up-to-date.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I certainly

      find it hard to ignore when every distro I've tried for about the last 2 or 3 years tries to set my 2 hard drives up as a RAID array just because I have a RAID controller. One time I forgot and set the installation running without remembering how bad Linux installers are and had to restore 300GB of data and operating systems from dvd backups. Luckily the only stuff I hadn't burnt to disc was trivial anyway. In about the last half a dozen attempted installations I haven't yet seen even a remotely user-friendly way to install Linux without deleting a full hdd-worth of data I want on said hdd. I can only imagine none of the Linux fanbois multiboot with Windows, or if they do, not on a multidisk system with an nVidia RAID controller, or if they do, give a flying fuck about doing so from a GUI installer (therefore don't really care about Linux ever realistically challenging Windows).

      I ran various distros for years before getting an nVidia chipset-based mobo and finding out the Linux experience is as incompetent as it ever was. Meanwhile I have 6 versions of Windows currently multibooting and no problem doing so whatsoever.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I certainly

        I have an nvidia chipset and multiple disks and I have no idea what you're talking about.

        Same story with another system I had that used an Adaptec 4 port SATA RAID card. RAID was a conscious choice. You don't choose it, you don't get it. That was my experience with OpenSUSE 11.something and Ubuntu 9.04 anyway.

        But I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Installing an OS DOES involve formatting disks. So care should be taken. How many Windows enthusiasts unplug secondary hard drives before they install Windows so that it doesn't shit all over them? That's right: a pretty embarrassing majority.

        Windows multiboots okay with other Windows, but Linux multiboots well with everything. Yes I have had some nightmare experiences with GRUB, but I am the most dangerous kind of enthusiast; one who rarely bothers planning anything. Even so I can't say I've ever bricked 300GB worth of data.

        "meh"

      2. DRendar
        Linux

        Eh?

        I have multiple systems multibooting - WinXP + Ubu on a Laptop and Win7+Ubu on my desktop (Which has 3 HDDs)

        The Desktop is also an NVidia Chipset with built in RAID.

        My Server also runs SME Server 7 with 4 Identical Disks, also on NVidia Chipset.

        I'm not sure what you're doing wrong but I've NEVER had an issue like you describe. The only way that any installer I've used would treat individual drives as a RAID array is if they already were a RAID array. Is your SATA mode set to RAID perchance?

      3. Vic

        I do not believe you

        > every distro I've tried for about the last 2 or 3 years tries to set my 2 hard drives up as a RAID array

        Nonsense. Distros do not do that.

        Some will have offered you a "RAID" button in case you wanted to set up an array - but none of them do anything like that by default.

        I'll be charitable and say that you were confused...

        Vic.

      4. rsm1979

        Probably LVM

        You almost certainly selected the option called LVM, which will use all disks that it finds in a system.

        This is not RAID, but can appear similar.

        1. Vic

          Not LVM.

          > You almost certainly selected the option called LVM, which will use

          > all disks that it finds in a system.

          Errr - no.

          All the installers that support LVM installation require partitions to be set up explicitly as PVs. The closest to your description I know of is the SuSE installer, which creates the VG first, then asks you which partitions to add to it (as PVs). The dialogue presents all partitions, including those in use for other things.

          Anaconda (RHEL/Fedora-type installer) requires PVs to be set up (within the installer) before the VG can be created. Slackware and Gentoo have their own strangeness. The standard Ubuntu installer doesn't do LVM at all, so you either need to create the VG by hand before installing, or fight your way through the alternate installation disk (which I've often found to be problematic).

          > This is not RAID, but can appear similar.

          I wouldn't agree with that. LVM is a soft partitioning scheme, not a RAID configuration.

          Vic.

    3. Vic

      I approved a few hours ago :-(

      > Getting people onto Linux.

      It as a nice dream while it lasted.

      From http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/364438/microsoft-moves-in-on-marthas-98-pc-scheme :-

      "Microsoft is jumping on the low-cost PC bandwagon, by offering free software to Martha Lane Fox's scheme to get cheap PCs to Britain's broadband have-nots. "

      That'll raise Remploy's costs, though - someone has to pay for that extra RAM...

      Vic.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "Microsoft is jumping on the low-cost PC bandwagon"

        Great well that's that idea officially stuffed then. As you say, nice while it lasted.

        What's the benefit in having Windows if its a naff "starter" edition that is deliberately missing all of the features it had that supposedly made it "superior" to Linux? Of course, there is no benefit to anyone except Microsoft who have decided to fight Linux by providing their own free OS that actually sucks major league balls by design.

        At this point Microsoft actually wants Windows Starter to be horrible as in their mind it punishes these people for not having the funds to buy the real version. It also gives them the idea that any free OS must suck, just because Microsoft's does.

        The most sickening part of all is that they are misrepresenting this as a charitable donation. I've never agreed with Steve Jobs before, but I think he was right when he said that MS really have no taste at all. This is like digging up someone's grave the day after the funeral so that you can steal their coffin and use it as a foot bath. I don't think I could be much more disgusted.

    4. greggo

      and recycle hardware.

      All those 4-5 yr old XP machines which won't upgrade to Win7? Most will run ubuntu fine. And they have decent processors, USB2 and DVI out and all that (probably SATA even) so you'll be fine for schools.

  1. Mage Silver badge
    Linux

    How did Three get there?

    Online but not Broadband.

    Why not a choice of Mobile supplier and option of paying extra for DSL or Virgin?

    In fact at £9 a month Three makes a whopping loss.

    Nothing wrong with Penguins. More apps for Linux than OS X.

    Open Office, Firefox and Thunderbird are just the same as on Windows.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "Why not a choice of Mobile supplier and option of paying extra for DSL or Virgin?"

      One would hope that the dongle is optional. Those who don't want it could take their pick of any ISP.

      But as it stands this scheme is designed as a way to give people a simple "internet ready" package with no effort involved at a cheapish cost. You don't want to overwhelm them with loads of choices; picking an ISP can be a pain in the ass regardless of your skill level and a meaningless choice for those with no skill at all.

      You don't want to come to these people's houses preaching the gospel of the internet, and then start pissing them off with a load of difficult choices. You just say: "it's £100 then £9 a month; you game?". That's how you sell things to these people.

    2. Chemist

      "Open Office, Firefox and Thunderbird are just the same...."

      and Google Earth, VLC, Skype

  2. Mage Silver badge
    Badgers

    What was the Survey?

    That showed that Advantaged kids with parents that teach them Reading and such before they start school benefit from PC and that Poor Disadvantaged ignored kids have worse Educational performance when they get a PC?

  3. eJ2095

    Also

    If Memory servers me right Three support with teh dongles and linux are well erm not that good....

    Ebay will be clogged full of these machines (Thats if they can work out how to get them on there)

    1. johnvile
      Unhappy

      3.. bloody rubbish

      I have a 3 Dongle gathering dust somewhere.

      It came with (not advertised on the box) some kind-of Linux drivers that where never going to work in reality.

      The forums where replete with no answers at all.

      3 where most unhelpful

      1. John H Woods Silver badge

        Agreed ...

        3 told me they "don't support linux". Fortunately you can just plug a 3 dongle into a modern Ubuntu distro, and when the box pops up, select '3'. Then it works. It's one of the advantages of using Linux - last time I tried an O2 dongle on Windows it tried to subvert all my Wifi config by replacing the windows zero-config with a huge bloaty buggy mess.

    2. Fred 24
      Megaphone

      Support is not needed

      Beyond ejecting the '3 Connect' cd device first.

      Then simply right click network manager and select '3internet'

      Simples

      1. Trevor 3
        Pint

        I love the reg

        If you have no help on any forums on any product, just come here when an appropriate story comes along, rant until your testes turn blue and 2 people will post 2 solutions to your problem and even include the word "simples" on the end. Within hours.

        Pint for everyone.

  4. Joe Montana
    WTF?

    Broadband & second rate linux distros

    Will this system come with a useful linux distro such as Ubuntu, or will it come with some half assed unheard of distro that creates a poor impression of linux?

    Also, why provide a 3g dongle? Will most of these systems be laptops? How about providing a choice between 3g dongle, ultra cheap adsl etc (isps should offer an extremely cheap 128k adsl or something).

    The biggest advantage of this system that i can see, is to introduce poor kids to linux... There will inevitably be a percentage of kids there with the right mindset to learn, but who would otherwise have not had the chance to.

    1. The BigYin

      @Joe Montana

      If these are old machines (and they probably are) then Ubuntu will create the poor image. it's just too big and demanding (and it's only going to get worse - Wayland/Unity). Lubuntu....maybe but I reckon a good Pup-dervied distro would be the best way to go.

      1. Andus McCoatover
        Joke

        Pup-derived?

        You dog! I'd go with Lin-puss meself...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      3G dongles

      Some people may prefer the pay as you go nature of a 3G dongle over a long contract for adsl. My parents are still using dialup and like the idea that you just pay for what you use. I have come to the conclusion that the simplest way to get them onto broadband is to get them a PAYG 3G modem. Perhaps after using this for a while, they will see the benefits of broadband and will be happy to move to adsl. In that case, it will have been a useful stepping stone. If they are happy with 3G and stick with it, it will still have been a useful thing for them.

    3. This post has been deleted by its author

  5. Matt 70
    FAIL

    Deluded....

    Maybe people don't want a PC because they just don't want one.

    Maybe they don't want to go on the intertubes.

    Maybe they don't want to to be locked in to spending £108 on silly intertubes a year.

    and maybe they can see that the claim in the report of being able to save £560 per year online is only relevant if you actually have thousands to be able to spend or want to spend buying stuff anyways.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "The poor will always be with us."

    Thousands of years of evolution and there will alway be someone or something worse off that others. Some people have enough trouble raising enough cash to give their kids a decent meal, give a a couple of quid and send them down the chippy.

    Only two things will happen with cheap PCs. IT techs will buy them to knock-up MythTV, firewall and SMTP gateway boxes or someone will scam the system to buy them and flog them down the "Sunday Booties" for double the price.

  7. PaulM 1
    Gates Halo

    These PCs should be sold with Windows

    I can not see microsoft allowing Linux to be sold on cheap PCs if they become mainstream. Microsoft has already seen off Linux on netbooks with £40 copies of Windows 7 starter edition. I am sure that Microsoft will similarily see off Linux on these refurbished PCs.

    Anyway don't the people who made this announcement realise that you can already buy a refurbished PC with Windows XP installed for less than the cost of an XP licence. For example you can currently buy a refurbished 2.8 Ghz HP tower PC with XP installed for only £40 from Hemplan's ebay shop.

    I have not seen a refurbished PC sold without an XP license for some time. I guess that Microsoft will do almost anything to ensure that all PCs are sold with Windows licences.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "currently buy a refurbished 2.8 Ghz HP tower PC with XP installed for only £40 from Hemplan's ebay"

      Sure thing. But are Hemplan's selling 8,000 such machines?

      Is the licence really genuine and valid? If not, you might as well not have it at all. (note: I have no idea who Hemplan's are, I am not insinuating anything about them)

      Furthermore, do you really think it a good idea to migrate thousands of people onto an OS that is reaching the end of it's life?

      And finally, £40 on top of £100 (lets say for Windows 7) is a 40% increase in price. For what possible benefit when you consider that these low power systems probably can't run the latest Windows software anyway?

      1. PaulM 1
        Gates Halo

        Microsoft will cut the cost of software to virtually nothing to make a sale

        I bought a complete Windows 98 PC for £35 for a friend some years ago from Hemplan. It had a believable Windows 98 sticker on the side. From what I can see, Microsoft allow recyclers to install Windows on any recycled PC which was originally sold with a copy of Windows.

        There are plenty of other suppliers of refurbished PCs in the UK other than Morgan and Hemplan who will sell you a refurbished PC with XP installed for less than the cost of an XP license. CRS is another company which comes to mind. I can not believe that these 3 high profile companies could get away with selling dodgy copies of XP.

        So far as Windows 7 is concerned I only paid £50 for a legal copy of Windows 7 Ultimate edition upgrade for my son's PC. If you have children then you need not pay more than £50 for any Microsoft software.

        Dont you love Microsoft?

      2. Vic

        Might not be £40...

        > And finally, £40 on top of £100 (lets say for Windows 7)

        Microsoft do a "refurbished" licence. I don't know the cost, but it's fairly cheap.

        Still needs all the administration overhead, though - buying licences, tracking them, typing them into installations, ...

        If you're trying to build cheap systems with minimal construction overheads, it makes a lot of sense to use Free Software, even if the licences aren't all that much cheaper...

        Vic.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Flame

      Re: These PCs should be sold with Windows

      "I can not see microsoft allowing Linux to be sold on cheap PCs if they become mainstream."

      Do we have to ask Microsoft's permission for things now?

      "Microsoft has already seen off Linux on netbooks with £40 copies of Windows 7 starter edition. I am sure that Microsoft will similarily see off Linux on these refurbished PCs."

      I am sure that Microsoft will use every dirty trick in their playbook to "see off" competition, whether that involves coercing manufacturers to drop Linux-based products and shipping the hardware with the widely hated "starter edition" you mention, and/or getting everyone to play the "it's part of the product/free of charge" versus "it's separate, Mr Regulator/costs money, Mr Pirate" refund and regulatory avoidance game.

      "I have not seen a refurbished PC sold without an XP license for some time. I guess that Microsoft will do almost anything to ensure that all PCs are sold with Windows licences."

      Yes, they just love to sell stuff to people over and over again, even if you think you're getting a "good deal" by paying less than the RRP for that product you already have. And for those who don't want Mr Gates' product, they're out of luck: the propaganda says that you're a "pirate" if you don't want Windows forced upon you.

      So no, these PCs should be sold with genuinely open solutions, rather than being yet another anticompetitive channel for cash to pass from customers and taxpayers to large US monopolists.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I quite like this idea, in principle.

    I quite like this idea, in principle. I do it myself and recommend it to others, and it sounds like good opportunity for Remploy to "reduce reuse recycle".

    There are plenty of perfectly capable ex-corporate computers on the market. Morgan sell some, folks on ebay have plenty too, often at rather lower oprices (often because Morgan include Windows and ebay often doesn't). At £100 (complete) to buy there is not much of a subsidy and therefore not much motivation for the kit to end up on fleabay.

    Any decent Linux is now in a state where those not Windows-dependent could cope with it just as well as they could with Windows. Whether they could cope at all is a different question.

    3G dongles are a bit less helpful, but they are OK when they work.

    There are massive FAILs in this scheme but they are around the politics not the technology. E.g. as already pointed out, "the report of being able to save £560 per year online is only relevant if you actually have thousands to be able to spend" and in particular "I suspect very few of the remaining PC-less households are that way because the can't afford a basic setup." and "this is a way to force everyone onto the Internet so then they can shut down many of the government and council offices to save money. "

  9. johnvile
    FAIL

    I Blame Linux

    I fear this is going to be yet another "Blame Linux" when it all goes tits up.

    People who haven’t got computers already probably don’t won't things that equate to quite large pieces of plastic furniture hanging about. Cables and bits of tackle to plug in. It's just a mess.

    If you offered a reasonably spec tablet at the same price I'm sure you'd be looking at a winner.

    If they won't people online them give them a tool for being online. Not the whole *&^% tool box.

    1. GrumpyJoe
      Thumb Down

      Skills

      A tablet PC lets you become a consumer - a fully working PC allows you to be a creator. Which one do we want people to be - mindless consumers or active contributors to society and culture?

      I desperately try to get my kids interested in computers, but they only see the apps - without realising the potential underneath them - when all are consumers who creates?

  10. Ned Fowden

    why ?

    Why is there a necessity to get absolutely everyone online or get them a computer ?

    1. Dante

      Why...

      ...to Martha look useful of course

    2. JimC

      >everyone online

      As has been said, because they think that if they can eliminate all other forms of communiocation with the public then they'll be able to save a few quid.

  11. DRendar
    Linux

    WHICH DISTRO!?

    Oh Christ, I can see it now. It's ASUS and their God-Awful EEEPC distro all over again.

    They won't bundle a decent distro and they will all be flakey with crap support, we end up with an entire generation of people who think that "Linux" and not "Cobbled-Together-Remploy-Distro" is crap.

    They then go to PC world where the monkeys look at it, scratch their heads and pronounce that they need a £600 upgrade to support Windows.

    Fecking Brilliant.

    For God's sake PLEASE don't do what ASUS did - bundle a REAL DISTRO!!!!

    Won't Someone PLEASE think of the PENGUINS!!!!

    1. Andus McCoatover

      Don't EVER call my missus a penguin...

      OK, she waddles a bit, and sports yellow teeth just to prove that Sterodent doesn't work, but..

      She loves her Asus eeepc701, with original Xandros. Gets her internet, and can do her work forms on it. Pays her bills electronically, without a sub-zero 5Km bike ride to the bank.

      Doesn't use it much more after that, but I doubt if 'Granny' will be playing Warcraft on one either.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    PCs and the elderly

    Just how suited is a PC to our beloved elder population anyway? I'm using my dear old nan as a yardstick here: she has never typed, and I tried her with a mouse once back in 1994 and she absolutely couldn't get it to do what she wanted. I coupled with mild arthritis this would make it a frustrating experience at best. The space a PC takes up (and she would want to move it about to dust behind it and unplug it at night), and the electricity it consumes would consign it to becoming a gift for a neighbour's kids or to the bin in pretty short order.

    If web access is the goal, wouldn't a cheap Android tablet with some accessibility software together with the Three SIM be the order of the day?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      well

      If she finds a mouse uncomfortable, it's hard to imagine that a large flat surface that you hold awkwardly with one hand and jab with the other is going to be any more comfortable. Neck craned downwards like you're trying to win a staring contest against your own shoes.

      It's just like using a clipboard, the problem is, clipboards suck and usually mark the owner out as someone you would never want to talk to ever (with the exception of hospital staff I guess... and the really cool ones use dictaphones).

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Fair point

        I admit I had talking via Skype or sitting at a table to fill in a form in mind when I suggested that. Actually I'm not quite sure what else she'd want from the web she doesn't already get from the telly. How about an android tablet with a sturdy desk stand thrown in?

        1. Chemist

          "..from the web she doesn't already get from the telly.."

          You ageist Anonymous Coward !!

  13. Matt_payne666

    nice little earner...

    for 3!!

    9per month on a 12 month contract i expect... with the usual, or possibly lower bandwith limit, hand out to the inept and have them all try streaming or down loading... soon you will be selling those extra megabyes like they were going out of fashion!!

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Run by big brother

    My first thought was great and tried to join, but when I saw a facebook link, I had my first doubt, but then I saw an email link and tried to join via an email address, first I tried to enter my yahoo address which it rejected, then I tried to enter my gmail address, it also rejected that, there is no way anyone gets my personal email address, till I trust them.

    I have a facebook account but I would not trust that outfit any farther than I could throw them.

    So then I did a bit of digging on the site and discovered the women who is running the scheme, is a non executive director of Marks and Spencer.

    You might think the man who runs Britain is David Cameron, he might be a nice enough fellar, but in charge of Britain he is not.

    The people who run Britain, are the same people who told Colin Powell, to tell De Billiere and Schwarzkopf to stop at the border of Iraq and not march all the way to Baghdad and try Saddam as a war criminal, it is on record that both wanted to finish the job then.

    They euphemistically called it 'The First Gulf War' so when did it end? You know when did the peace treaty get written?

    The reason the allies did not finish the job nearly twenty years ago, was it contributed to the idea of a planet run by rule of law, mandated by a democratic UN.

    The people who run Britain, are the same people who run most of its supermarkets. People complain about bankers bonuses nobody ever says a thing about the enormous profits supermarkets make.

    Supermarkets create nothing and make society no richer, all they do is get betwixt producer and consumer and say I'll have some of that.

    The politicians keep telling us we have a deficit, what a deficit in money? How come when we can just print the stuff?

    No what is really happening, the people who run Britain do not want the dreaded phrase, trade deficit used, because the big multiples would rather import things from countries where people work for less wages and have a lower standard of living, because this enables a bigger mark up and more profit.

    Why do you think farmers have such a big suicide rate and bankruptcy rate?

    Up and 'at 'em Assange

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Megaphone

      I think

      They put subliminal messages in the ice cream truck music.

      If you listen carefully you can kinda hear "hail satan"

  15. SteelPriest
    Thumb Down

    3g?

    so their first experience of the net is gonna be over crappy 3g connections (or more likely GPRS)!?

    no thanks.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    my experience, for what it's worth

    of doing this sort of thing (selling refurbed obsolete hardware set up to do basic tasks easily & introduce people to IT) is that the time from installation to a help line call - 'it won't run the latest whizzy game that we were told it couldn't run and said we didn't want to run but the kids/grandkids/neighbours came round and said we should try this disc and now the computer won't run properly/do anything...'

    - is about 5 days.

    then you go round to unscramble it and find the neighbour has reformatted the drive & installed a cracked version of xp... 'but there's still something wrong cause it won't run call of crysis 2 etc...and now the colours/sound/internet won't work'

    It's not worth the trouble - stuff costs money for a reason

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      True cost of stuff is work.

      Stuff don't cost money it costs 'work', money you can print or conjure out of thin air with a trick called 'quantitative easing'.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      re: It's not worth the trouble

      Set the machine up with a separate /home partition, make an image of the root partition. When they mess up the installation just restore the image. Simples. I know it's not perfect, but what do you expect for £100?

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