P2P file-sharing enabler LimeWire finally lost its long-running battle against music-industry heavy hitters on Tuesday. "As of today, we are required to stop distribution and support of LimeWire’s P2P file-sharing service as a result of a court-ordered injunction," reads a statement by Lime Company CEO George Searle on the …
How about Amazon/iTunes short previews? How about MySpace? Lots of bands put a few free samples off their latest work. You can't download, but if you like it much, you will buy it.
How about Spotify?
How about simply nipping down to HMV and asking for a free listen? Some of them happily allow this if you ask.
Sorry, but this argument won't wash. You are either simply ripping stuff off or you don't rip it off, you can't really be on the fence I'm afraid!
Youtube is actually a good idea, thanks for that AC
The other Anonymous Coward, why would i need pirate music when i have a genuine copy of the CD?
Use your brain
I can bring it back for a cash refund.
Oh. There you are then.
Think before you type...
@AC - BS
I do like how you try to argue against someones personal experience ("I buy what I download") by leveraging your own personal experience. Though your metaphor for studies being fake (basically "they lie") doesn't hold much water, because as you're probably right and a lot of them are lying, there are probably a lot of them that aren't.
From MY personal experience I know myself and my friends download songs, listen to them repeatedly (sorry YouTube/Spotify, you don't cut it) and if it becomes a song we cherish or really enjoy (can often take more than one sitting over a large period of time) we buy that bands album. Every CD purchase I've made for the past 10yrs+ has happened this way, I've bought over 30 CDs in this time.
We also don't delete it after buying it as an MP3 copy is useful for portable music players and the like, but we've at least bought the rights to have those copies.
Then again, if you really wanted to support the artists, GO SEE THEM IN CONCERT! Nine Inch Nails manage to release their albums for free online and still make a very comfortable living, how could this be? could it be that musicians (the REAL music industry) make most of their money of touring and concerts? yes, yes it is...
"...Then again, if you really wanted to support the artists, GO SEE THEM IN CONCERT! Nine Inch Nails manage to release their albums for free online and still make a very comfortable living, how could this be? could it be that musicians (the REAL music industry) make most of their money of touring and concerts? yes, yes it is..."
1) Trent Reznor (Nine Inch Nails) made his money from classic album sales, he now has enough money to take risks by experimenting with alternative sales.
2) Most bands do not make a lot of money from gigging. Putting on a concert is extremely expensive and often loss making for smaller bands.
3) What about bands who have split up?
4) What about music that can't be performed live?
5) Touring prevents a normal home life and is extremely hard going.
6) Go to see live bands when you can, it's great, but don't think that you're funding the band any more than by buying a CD.
"Every CD purchase I've made for the past 10yrs+ has happened this way, I've bought over 30 CDs in this time."
In just 2 years doing that i have over 50 cds, i end up buying all an artist's cds rather than just the few songs i've downloaded.
Pink, Scissor Sisters, Kylie, all get better with age =]
Re: Tigra 07 - what are my options?
How about the preview button on most Music stores for the first 30 seconds of a song? They are trying to accomodate you, believe it or not.
If the first 30 seconds of a song is good enough to know all there is to know about the whole song, I for one don't want to buy it.
Re: Re: Tigra 07 - what are my options?
> How about the preview button on most Music stores for the first 30 seconds of a song?
30 second previews are only good for determining if you've found the right song. It's not a very good representation of an entire song. Case and point:
"Be Calm" - fun.
"Echoes" - Pink Floyd
"Time" - Pink Floyd
So 'cos the song in question takes a while to get going, that gives you right to download it without permission and without paying for it?
You try that one in court, I could do with a bloody good laugh!
Notice you picked on prog bands, who are notorious for making 25 min epics, to make a convenient argument there!
EMI should pay YOU to listen to Flink Ployds dire prog rock dirges...
>So 'cos the song in question takes a while to get going, that gives you right to download it without permission and without paying for it?
Woah, laddie. That's a mighty big straw man you're building there. I know 5th November is around the corner but you're getting rather carried away here. I only said 30 second previews didn't allow for decent representations of songs. At no point did I advocate copyright infringements as an alternative.
> Notice you picked on prog bands, who are notorious for making 25 min epics, to make a convenient argument there!
Firstly, prog bands? _bands_? fun. aren't progressive rock. More like power pop.
Secondly, you say convenient argument, I say picking the most obvious examples to make a point without wanting to spend all day thinking of examples. My point remains valid nonetheless but to assure you that 30 seconds isn't enough to make a good judgment of a song here are further examples, this time covering the genres R&B, Dance, Drum and Bass, and Classical:
"Graduation Day" - Kayne West
"Right here, Right now" - Fat Boy Slim
"Slam" - Pendulum
"The Planets Op.32 Mars, the Bringer of War" - Gustav Holst
The Kayne West track is an example of a song that starts with a monologue and breaks out into a song. Fat Boy Slim and Holst are examples of songs that build to a climax. While the Pendulum song is an example of a song with monologue and change of style from rap backing track to trance.
Money given to the RIAA/BPI in the past 20 years: £0
Money cheerfully donated last week to independent artist Molly Lewis, in appreciation of her freely offered tracks in high bitrate mp3, flac or vorbis: $25
The future is here, it's packing a ukulele, and it don' need no steenkin' studio contract.
money from performances
When recording first started, musicians were not paid anything for recording, they thought having more people listen to their music would get more people paying to see their performances (or buying drinks/food in businesses paying for their performances), which is how they earned their money. There was a brief historical period when this wasn't true, when the audience for recorded music became large but copying recorded music at home was still difficult.
Another revenue stream not affected by P2P or VPNs is commercial use. The recording societies collect from business owners if music is played in shops or restaurants. At some point these organisations will have to accept that a greater revenue stream is obtainable by accepting that a proportion of blank media and net bandwidth is sold on the back of exchanged commercially copyrighted music/films in order to bring this activity within commercially leviable use, than by trying to suppress this activity and doing without the revenue stream that comes from commercialisation/legitimisation.
People still use it ?
This is why the recording industry will fail. Limewire is something I might have considered installing about 3 PCs ago. All my PCs now come with Transmission already installed and if I so wished I see no shortage of tracker sites.
I think I was still in short pants when Limewire was hip.
Individual tracks vs albums
Limewire is my weapon of choice for downloading individual tracks that I may have heard on the radio, etc. BitTorrent is better for grabbing entire albums/collections. This may be a reason other people still find it useful.
With most torrent clients...
...there is nothing stopping you from downloading individual tracks too. In much the same way you can leave out particular albums from an entire discography.
Ooooohhh...downloading discographies?! I'm gonna be hung, drawn and quartered by the whiter-than-white brigade for that one. Downvotes a-go-go! LOL
The only thing that suprises me is that people still used limewire.
30 seconds is not enough and they expect you to subscribe or pay up to listen to more than a couple tracks.
Would i be happy listening to Rihanna - Mad house for 30 seconds and buying it only to find out it's a 50 second song? No
And neither would a lot of people
Besides, online music stores are crap because you lose everything if something happens to your computer and some stores use DRM, cd cases on the other hand are permanent and a work of art.
Why buy from an online store if there's a chance i could have to buy my whole music collection again if my computer is stolen?
Amazon MP3 store is not DRM'd I don't think but you are restricted to a 30 second preview before you buy. It's got a reasonable bitrate though (320kbs).
Spotify has a free (ok, ad-supported) service that allows you to listen to 20 hours of music a month. You can also buy tunes through Spotify - though I don't know about DRM on them as I've never bought through Spotify.
We7 has a free (again ad-supported) unlimited service which also allows you to buy tunes - I don't know about the DRM as, again, I've never bought from them.
Last.fm radio is free (subscription is optional and only prevents the radio stopping every 20 minutes or so). Full tracks from a huge swathe of artists - it's generally my first stop for finding "new" artists that I might like. For listening to specific tracks you already know about "on demand" it is effectively useless though.
When it comes to buying music - I generally get the CD as it gives a good "master" copy with cover art and so on - but I have bought the odd track from Amazon MP3. Normally when there's only 1 good track on the album and the rest is "meh" (Papillon by Editors for instance - or Panzermensch by And One).
To be honest, unless you live in a shanty town on the outskirts of Bogota, there's not really a good excuse for pirating music any more.
> there's not really a good excuse for pirating music any more.
Did the obvious fact of it being free (no monetary cost) escape you?
People are too selfish to give a shit about any moral obligation to be respectful of arcane copyright law.
Why would you pay for something you can enjoy for free?
ps. hate to break it to you - all those internet radio players provide a fine free recordable source of high quality digital music making it trivially easy to share and distribute your precious copyrighted masterpieces.
Your right, there are a lot of selfish people out there and you will never get rid of piracy. I wish the entertainment industry would accept that and move onto doing what's best for their customers.
Personally I believe music is overpriced, I think a MP3 album shouldn't be more than a CD album and 49p is probably about right for an individual MP3. If I think a artist is actually worth it I simply wait until their album hits the bargain bin. Most of my music purchases these days are direct from local artists to be honest.
I stopped buying PC games because of the DRM, I no longer buy DVD's made by Disney\Momentum Pictures because of forced trailers and adverts. Of course I'm sure many in the entertainment industry will blame piracy rather than their over pricing and ruining of there own product (CD's no longer passing the Compact Disc spec, old games can't run on new PC's because of old DRM, etc...)
Just having a moan!! :D
There was a time when I payed and downloaded music (with DRM) and I wasnt allow to burn to CDs, lost rights to play music THREE times (when the Online shop "upgraded" or I upgraded my OS). So had to re-purchase my library!! Surely this was theft from the end user.
If the music industry charged resonable prices then more people would pay.
Anyways... P2P technology shouldnt be banned, anyone remember the 1st verison of BBC iPlayer, with P2P built in!!!
Anon for obvious reasons :)
This is a title, this is only a title...
Good grief - you could at least tell us what the shop was so we all know who to avoid!
If the music industry charged resonable prices then more people would pay.
Ye-es - what 7 or 8 quid for an MP3 album, 79 - 99p for a single track?.. or for a physical CD album maybe 10, 15 quid give or take? That's less than a round of drinks up the pub - and lasts a lot longer. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Though I agree, there's no reason to ban P2P - and in fact it hasn't been banned as it's just a technology. The music industry is simply going for the low-hanging fruit - those P2P companies that are easy targets and have a large enough user-base to make it worth making life just a little harder for those pirates.
I can't imagine they'd be delusional enough to believe they can ever stop piracy - but they might be able to make it less convenient than just legitimately buying the MP3/CD in the first place.
Good grief, that's almost defending the music industry ... I need a bath now, I feel dirty.
Good Riddence to bad .........
Pretty well every one of my friends PC's I have found riddled with malware seem to have Limewire.
Missing the point...
Limewire was just one of many frontends to the Gnutella network. It was perhaps to those who don't know the difference the most friendly faced client, but it didn't provide an infrastructure of it's own.
So congratulations to the music industry for once again missing the point; rather than close the market they've closed the (presumably) most travelled access road.
Preview (prehear) options...
Death of Piracy eh?
Spotify is a good way of listening to tracks to see if you want to buy them, as is the likes of We7. In fact I have a Spoitfy account and pretty much use it for all my music needs. I miss certain stuff that isn't on there because the artists are dicks who are trying to prop up the old model (Metallica, I'm looking at you) but that's a price I'm willing to pay.
However, the record companies seem to be under the impression that killing off P2P will stop music piracy. As we all know, that's not true. You may stop people sharing it, but people who want stuff for free will find other ways. Spotify + Audacity anyone? So what now, they try and ban all sound recording software on PCs the same way they tried to kill home recording in the 80's? Good luck with that!
Pirates will ALWAYS find a way. The music and film industries need to make legitimate sources attractive to the majority so that they don't bother to acquire the technical know-how to become part of the minority. If they can't be bothered to do that, they deserve to be consigned to the Dustbin of History along with all the Injury Lawyers R Us people!
I think perhaps the music industry are most worried about the steady creation of new generations who have no previous point of reference for how music is bought and sold. It's easy enough for me: I come from a time, long ago, when music used to be sold exclusively through high street shops, on vinyl, cassette and later on CD. It all seemed so straightforward. Sure, we could record copies for friends, but it was all a bit of a faff and the quality was never quite there on cassette, at least.
These days, issues of quality are practically non-existent for a generation reared on mp3. For them, music is no longer perceived as a tangible 'object' (remember those elaborate gatefold double, triple, albums..?), but rather as an anonymous digital file of little or no perceived actual real-world 'value'.
In this age of wannabe 'Pop Idols' on every commercial TV channel ('Anyone can be a Star!'), the music industry needs to find a way to engender a sense of 'value' in the product it offers. And in the absence of 12" album sleeves, colour vinyl, gatefolds with expensive booklets, boxsets and limited numbered editions and insets, I can't really see how that can be done.
Perhaps the genie really is out of the bottle for good.
It's all theft...
Awesome comments in here.
Well, you try-before-you-buyers have decimated the PC gaming market, good job! Enjoy all of those Wii games designed for 5 year old girls.
Now you have destroyed one source of entertainment, focus all of your freetardery on another! Go for particular genres of music...there's no end to the amount of damage you can do the entertainment/creative industries!
I'll be more than happy to help destroy the music industry
while it continues to churn out its current level of shite.
Trial versions of games have long been legally available. The PC games industry is being destroyed by the games industry trying to force everybody onto their consoles (e.g. Halo 3) and by the mistaken assumption that everybody wants to play multiplayer games.
And no, it isn't theft. It's copyright infringement and you damn well know it. Just because you wish it wasn't will not alter what the law says, so tough titties.
PC Gaming is Dead - Take 34
Games For Windows is relaunching their service? GOG.com recently relaunched their service? What's that, 30 million active accounts on Steam?
Is PC Gaming thriving in spite of your imbecilic comments? Yes.
...er...but not really.
Have a look at the major releases for consoles VS the major releases for PC. Sure, there are loads of Steam accounts...but Steam sells mainly overpriced old games (plus, you need a Steam account to play old games like Half Life 2). How is it indicative of a thriving PC games market TODAY?
If the distrubution method for major releases has changed from shop to internet then superb...tell me where all these amazing games on internet only release are.
But when you pull your head out of your arse, go to the shops and have a look on the shelves at the REALITY, you'll see far fewer games for PC and far more big releases for the high end console market.
You can say quality over quantity...give me some quality PC game releases in the last year which aren't just remakes/rehashes of old classics.
The industry is in decline because guess what: THEIR PRODUCTS KEEP GETTING RIPPED OFF. I would buy a hammer to drive this point into your imbecilic skull but I think it would be too thick for any truth nail to penetrate it.
Right, lets take your upvoted crituque of the PC gaming industry.
"...trial versions of games have long been legally available" - demos are demos...ripping off the entire game from Limewire (RIP) is not a demo...downloading a demo is getting a demo. Oh...but I guess someone needs to try out an entire game before they think it might be worth buying...sure, I get it.
"...the games industry trying to force everybody onto their consoles" - Why do you think they're doing this? If there is an exploitable and profitable market they wouldn't be doing this. Why isn't there an exploitable and profitable market? Because people keep ripping off their products. While people can counterfeit console games it might be more effort and more faff than just ripping something off directly from the internet.
"...the mistaken assumption that everybody wants to play multiplayer games" - What do we know about multiplayer games from, for example, Steam. They are much easier to control and people who rip them off are much easier to catch then the closet single player game playing, not connected to the internet PC gamer of old. Result: more multiplayer shit because people just kept ripping off the single player epics that used to be released.
All in all: a pirate epic fail.
Call it what you like. The law can call murder all sorts of things too. Theft is theft. Copyright infringement is theft.
Very interesting to see the comments on here with regards to the debatable meaning of theft.
Those who don't think it is theft simply think that no person has been deprived of anything and therefore a theft can not have occurred. They conveniently forget about the artist (or rights holder) who is deprived of the fee legally due to them when a copy of their work is distributed.
What I really don't understand is why so many people are so content to deprive the artists they like of the funds they need to carry on producing more music. This seems a little like a snake eating its own tail, until one day pffft! One day there will be no more music worth listening to, games worth playing, movies worth watching, etc.
The goalposts have been moved...
> What I really don't understand is why so many people are so content to deprive the artists
Most people couldn't care less about the poor starving "artist" or any moral obligation to support them financially. While music is freely available and easy to copy / share copyright law will simply be ignored.
Copying "music" became as easy as copying a word doc, excel spreadsheet or any other computer file. Distributing and sharing files worldwide is now as trivially simple as sending an email. The anti-filesharing argument - copying equals theft - is completely irrelevant to a majority of people. If a law is widely ignored and practically unenforcable it can no longer be considered to carry any practical meaning.
Music will continue to exist, music will continue to be widely played and enjoyed. However, the business model that evolved around the sale and distribution of recordings is simply no longer viable...
As far as I was aware this isn't debatable. The Theft Act doesn't cover this so as far as UK law goes it isn't theft. Doesn't make it right of course but it isn't theft.
We're already there
Music, movies and games are already getting pretty bad, and yet every year people spend more money on them and more money is spent making them! I'm starting to think that the decline in quality is not due to piracy.
"What I really don't understand is why so many people are so content to deprive the artists they like of the funds they need to carry on producing more music. "
Of what value are claimed "rights" which are ineffective due to being almost universally ignored and unenforcible ? To see this in context, there used to be a law obliging London cabbies to carry a bale of hay in their cabs. The moral justification for this was to prevent the horse from going hungry. But it also granted rights to this market to hay suppliers. Technology moved on, but it took 50 years after the disappearance of horse-drawn cabs in London before this unenforceable and universally ignored law was finally got rid of. Was this law primarily for the benefit of the horses, or for the benefit of hay suppliers ? We could argue similarly about musicians, who typically get less than 5% of what we have historically spent on recordings with 95% going to the collection societies and music companies supposedly acting on their behalf.
In practice it's just as well that musicians have other sources of income, including from live performances and legitimate commercial use of their recordings when played in public places and on radio etc. by businesses which have to buy a license to play this legally. I'm supportive myself of artists getting a levy on the sale of network bandwidth and blank media for the purpose of legitimised and unrestricted copying of their work. But I'm not supportive of copyright owners being able to control and spy on what we all do with our computers and consumer electronics.
Big brother icon, because human rights privacy law ultimately trumps copyright. Someone else's copyright does not, based upon any sense of proportion or supremacy of human rights over other kinds of law, entitle them to have my mail steamed upon or my network connection monitored.
all your opinions are bs, including mine
personally i always download before buying, and I have bought many cd's that I woud never have done so if i had not listened to by downloading.
true, i could have used youtube or someother format, but how does that allow me to continually listen to them time and again, some of these take time to grow on you ... case in point for me, Metallica - Load, didn't really like it at first, gave it a few tries over a period of weeks, started to like it, bought it.
i can say the same for dozens more too
You have a point, it's terrible to have to keep visiting youtube for something you might buy anyway down the line
Also whle the music industry is claiming it's all piracies fault their figures are falling
AKB48's new song Begining shifts almost 600,000 copies on its first day and the groups sales have been progressively increasing over the past two years.
Write stuff people want, build a market for your brand, create music videos that don't suck and, generally work for a reward and you can sell big numbers.
However it's taken a good few years hard graft for the unit, the kind of work most labels can't be bothered with (AKB were infact dropped by sony during a rutt in sales), bet someone at Sony got fired for that now. Though it was probably the best thing for the unit. They exploit the hell out of digital and physical channels, put on a live every day and two at weekend, work work work work.
But no, it's piracy that's destroying sales not shite output.
The only bad news here...
... is that now they've closed this down, they will move onto new targets.
I can't actually believe people still use(d) Limewire. I thought people stopped using those P2P clients years ago - I certainly haven't touched them since around 2002.
They were (mainly) replaced by Torrents around that time, and even they are starting to fade (imo) as people move to newer (or much older!) methods with more privacy built in.
The fact is, this is an unwinnable war for the lables - look how long it took to shut down one front-end client. There's 1000's out there, they can't get them all.
As the former head of a major label said recently, make music £1/$1/€1 per album, and piracy won't even be considered - instead of 5m album sales being brilliant, 100m sales will be the norm.
so how do I get my US$20 back
Given I didn't use LW for illegal downloads, who do I have to contact for a refund?
The US Court?
or are we S.O.L.?
What planet are you people on?
Price fixing only works if you have control over a market (directly or via a cartel) and consumers have no alternative means of obtaining a product.
In a free market the value of something is determined by the amount people are willing to pay.
With the advent of the internet huge numbers of consumers have decided they are unwilling to pay anything for recorded music.
Never Say Die
At least for now ...
There's a definite cycle in the P2P business. Several years spent building up a "clientèle" of children who spend their time downloading Slipknot, or Britney Spears. Or Slipknot songs renamed as "Britney Spears". Several years under attack from lawyers. Then they "go legal" at which point their repeated media exposure as some sort of evil counterculture movement, coupled with the fact that they can now be considered a "legal high", gains them an unknown group of wierdos, probably 40 year old bankers, as loyal customers.
Rinse and repeat.
"Herd" is not the collective noun for lawyers.
It is an extortion of lawyers, or an eloquence of lawyers, depending on whether you are posting anonymously or not.
could've seen this coming...
Was at a conference recently (within a month) where I rep of Limewire was speaking about how they are launching a new platform- supposedly one that will pay musicians and labels per stream- actually Spotify was mentioned in relation to this.
The timing as mentioned in the ending comments in the article all fall into place wonderfully- and judging by things I've heard about Spotify and what I know about other streaming services it is little better than p2p for most artists, because they don't really generate any income but a few pennies or nothing per play- and I mean a few pennies...like 2 or 3- at most 6 cents is what these guys want to pay per stream- so you better be a major-label level artist in the first place to actually see any income to offset expenses required to keep any sort of music career going.
This is all part of the ongoing march toward making music the first industry to completely fall under world communism- the labels know it, the p2p providers know it- so they want the opportunity to throw artists and small labels a bone and act like they are doing everyone a service- if you think that it's all about "opposing sides" defending themselves think again- the future is mapped out pretty well. Music has lost over 1/2 it's total revenue in 10 years; as time goes on there will be more and more only big name artists (the "rich") and the rest of the herd with no ability to manuver in the marketplace- 10 years ago it was possible; it's exactly like the disolution of the middle class, only on a smaller scale.
This is bullshit!!! i can't believe they closed limewire!!! good thing i still have my bearshare to download music :)
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