back to article Diesels greener than electric cars, says Swiss gov report

Swiss boffins have mounted an investigation into the largely unknown environmental burdens of electric cars using lithium-ion batteries, and say that the manufacturing and disposal of batteries presents no insurmountable barriers to electric motoring. However, their analysis reveals that modern diesel cars are actually better …

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  1. blackworx
    Boffin

    Hydropower

    "as long as the electricity for the [battery car] is not produced by renewable hydropower"

    If they're counting such things - and we can only assume that they should be - the millions of acres of submerged rotting vegetation in hydroelectric reservoirs around the world causes them to emit huge volumes of CO2 and methane.

    Just saying.

  2. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. hplasm
      Joke

      Lithium?

      Won't the fusion plants provide tonnes of lithium?

    2. xj25vm

      Betting on the future

      "Except that by that day we will have run out of lithium so it'll be back to diesel cars. "

      Well there is this thing called probability. Internal combustion engines are very close to their efficiency limits. After 100 years of innovation and improvements - they are close to extracting as much efficiency out of the process as they ever will. It is purely a physical and chemical limitation. While, on the other hand, it is much more likely that batteries will be made out of other materials aside from lithium in the near future (many of them already are - competing battery chemistries already exist in production and testing labs based on a variety of other materials) - or even alternative electricity storage devices will become (more) viable - such as super capacitors.

      So running out of lithium = not so much of a problem. Combustion engines getting more efficient - hmm, far less leeway.

    3. John Murgatroyd

      Maybe

      That's why Toyota are using NiMH now ?

  3. Tom 38
    Headmaster

    Alternatives

    "But if you just want to emit less carbon right away, it seems you should buy a modern eco-diesel rather than an electric vehicle. "

    You could also buy neither, and use public transport, walking and bicycling to get around, which would emit even less carbon.

    1. Mark 65

      Re:Alternatives

      Public transport is only more efficient if a crucial mass of people use it. Just you and the driver on a suburban bus isn't particularly efficient. Likewise for mostly empty trains running during the day. Factor in that most public transport systems outside of major cities are shit, infrequent and seldom take you where you want to go and the diesel/EV alternative looks quite good.

      1. John Murgatroyd

        Public Transport

        is only efficient if it takes you where you want to go, and sufficient people also want to go to the same place.

        Not much good if you want to go fishing in the middle of nowhere.

        And even less use if you get stuck in a tube with a person with rear-end-pollution problems.

  4. Buzzword
    Stop

    Particulates and smelliness

    Diesel vehicles, even the newer ones, belch out great wafts of smelliness and particulates. These make life in city centres unpleasant, and contribute to health problems. If diesel is so safe, I'd like to see a modern-day John Gummer force his daughter to breathe in diesel fumes for ten minutes.

  5. famousringo
    Thumb Up

    It's not like we can all switch to diesel

    Since I doubt that there's enough supply of diesel to power every vehicle on the road, it's nice to know that electrics are cleaner than gasoline combustion even when the electricity is generated in the dirtiest way.

    Migrate to clean coal, nuclear and renewables and even diesel compacts would have a hard time competing, I suspect.

  6. FreeTard

    Keep these articles coming

    As I cannot decide what to replace the wife's 10 year old 1l Yaris with.

    Gonna wait another two years I reckon, but not sure the poor engine will last that long.

    It's already got 139,000 miles on it...

    When i see a 1L/100km car I'm sold.

  7. David Pollard

    V2G is the buzzword - vehicle to grid

    Electric cars are a vital part of wind power strategy, to store peak energy and feed it into the grid when needed. So they must be green.

    David MacKay reckons, "the key thing is to build up electric vehicles and electric heat pumps demand at the same rate as wind supply. Roughly 1000 electric vehicles per (2MW) wind turbine."

    http://withouthotair.blogspot.com/2009/05/is-david-mackay-trying-to-make-wind.html

    I still can't see this working without also having backup power for the long calm spells. Neither can I imagine many people changing without carrots and sticks, both of which tend to end up being expensive somewhere along the line.

  8. Richard Jukes

    Sod the MPG!

    Sod the MPG and environment. Its all about the money, and not paying money to the government/oil companies is great. Im saving my money for that 640hp Electric Mini that PML are working on. It was on the Reg a few years ago, 640hp, four wheel drive and a 0-60 time of under 5s. Now thats a car, I neeeeed it.....

  9. shufflingB
    Alert

    Greener, really?

    It might be possible in some specific circumstances to say diesels emit less CO2.

    However unless:

    a) diesels can be made as quiet as an electric.

    and more importantly

    b) the smelly and frequently visible clouds of soot that belch out the back of these vehicles is some sort magical health giving tonic (rather than a toxic cocktail of PM10 particulate emissions)

    then to say that they're greener than electric is quite debatable.

    There is little point in trying to achieve an incremental cut in CO2 emissions if in the process we poison the air we breathe with particulate emissions.

    1. Mark 65

      Quieter

      "However unless:

      a) diesels can be made as quiet as an electric."

      I'm sure that'll be helpful for all the impaired vision people crossing suburban streets (ones with sticks not dogs).

      Can just imagine it now - pollution down, pedestrian deaths up. Just saying.

      1. Jan 0 Silver badge

        Cloth ears?

        On suburban streets the loudest part of petrol/diesel cars is their tyres.

        Unless electric vehicles don't use tyres, I don't see how they're going to be stealthy.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      FAIL

      Merkin Problem

      FAILQUOTE: "the smelly and frequently visible clouds of soot that belch out the back of these vehicles"

      Here in Europe we developed and use at least two different technologies to make a Diesel as clean as a Petrol engine:

      http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieselru%C3%9Fpartikelfilter

      http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selektive_katalytische_Reduktion

      Your problem is either a) american ignorance (most likely) or b) a problem of american legislation not requiring clean Diesel technology.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    More efficient tech good. Choosing wisely better.

    The one idea I like best about electric cars is the ability to harvest energy from braking. That re-harvesting is something we should do more, for still far too much of the energy we "liberate" to use ends up wasted as heat or sound or otherwise doing nothing useful. I read in a popsci rag years ago that a light flywheel capable of 30k+ rpm would actually be better than a heavy one. Especially if using frictionless bearings and so on. It'd be great for what wastest cars most anyway: The stop/start drudgery of city driving.

    Personally, if I wanted a car, I'd try and fetch me an audi a2 "3L" edition, which only needs 3.0 litres/100km, and is nice and roomy for the things I'd need a car for most: Carting stuff around. Otherwise I'll stick to a bicycle, which is cheaper and healthier. Doing so is mostly a mindset issue, as all but the worst weather isn't much of a problem if you come prepared. A cheap foldable raincoat or poncho would do. Or even, like I do, carry a towel.

  11. tony72
    Thumb Up

    Bio-diesel

    Don't forget, diesels can also run on bio-diesel. So if they are environmentally comparable with a battery car when running on fossil fuel, they're surely light-years ahead when running on fully renewable bio-diesel. Yes, at the moment bio-fuels are made from food crops, and it isn't considered acceptable to divert too much of them to fuel production, as lots of poor people might starve due to the resulting increased food costs. But as the cost of producing bio-fuel from next generation sources (algae etc) comes down, that ceases to be a problem, and bio-diesel may well end up being the most green option.

    1. L.B
      Pint

      Not just bio-diesel...

      Diesel engines can be designed to run on almost anything that will burn and can be injected.

      They are commonly used to generate electricity from natural gas sources that would otherwise go to waste, such as from old refuse dumps and sewage works.

      They can even run on alcohol...

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Modern Diesels

    Of course most modern diesels have particulate filters to try to enable them to compete emission-wise with petrol engines. Fine except the filters don't work very well on short runs and tend to block and cause problems. Unless the mileage is quite high per year, diesels are not a good idea. But they're fine for motorway cruising.

    1. L.B

      Diesels NOT for long runs only.

      "Of course most modern diesels have particulate filters to try to enable them to compete emission-wise with petrol engines. Fine except the filters don't work very well on short runs and tend to block and cause problems. Unless the mileage is quite high per year, diesels are not a good idea. But they're fine for motorway cruising."

      Wrong. Diesel engines are always much more fuel efficient that petrol engines, and the filters work very well on any journey. Due to the way diesel engines work they tend to warm up quicker than petrol engines, as the temperatures achieved burning the fuel are higher.

      The first (and last) part of my week-day commute is a ~4.5 mile drive, where I typically get between 47 and 51 mpg, depending on the traffic. Between 7:00 & 7:30 (both am and pm) the roads are quiet enough that just driving at the speed limits of 30/40mph and not sitting in traffic jams gets this level of efficiency out of a 2006 VW Passat Estate.

      As a side note; when I first got the car with ~11000 miles on the clock I used to only get about 38mpg, this slowly rose as the engine ran in, with mpg in mid 40's by 25000 miles. My current average mpg (current mileage ~41000) after 610 miles on this tank full is 49mpg.

      1. NoDosh
        FAIL

        @diesels warm up more quickly?

        Really? Want to go and check that little factoid? Thermal efficiency in diesels is greater.

  13. Carvajal

    True mileage?

    Before a car reaches normal temperature the consumption is a lot higher.

    Many journeys are shorter than 5 miles and the car will never reach the ideal temperature.

  14. NoDosh
    Coat

    Mine's the one

    with the Land Rover keys in the pocket.

  15. Stevie

    Bah!

    "Concrete"? Concrete is made from Portland cement, sand and stones, and the machines used to dig it out and move it around are almost universally Diesel motored. Not seeing the connection.

    1. Mark 65

      @Stevie

      It's a CO2 reference. Specifically to do with the considering the entire energy chain...

      "Cement is made by heating limestone (calcium carbonate), with small quantities of other materials (such as clay) to 1450 °C in a kiln, in a process known as calcination"

      I'd imagine that chucks out a bit.

    2. Lunatik
      Headmaster

      Here are some magic letters and/or digits to appease the forum faeries

      Production of 1 tonne of cement releases about 0.82 tonnes of CO2, or about 0.67 tonnes if you include the fact that concrete will reabsorb some CO2 over its lifespan (source: http://www.sustainableconcrete.org.uk/main.asp?page=85)

  16. jake Silver badge

    Something people are missing ...

    Look to long-haul transportation, where economy makes for profits.

    Trains: Diesel

    Trucks: Diesel

    Aircraft: Jet fuel (basically, diesel)

    Shipping: Bunker fuel (basically, diesel)

    Do the math(s) & follow the money. Diesel powered vehicles are the absolute cheapest form of long distance transportation known to man, from a TCO point of view.

    1. GettinSadda
      FAIL

      Really?

      > Trains: Diesel

      Nip on over to Google images and do a search for a modern train such as the TGV, Bullet-Train or even the Pendolino. Take a good look at the images... no, not the trains... just above them... what are those long, wire-like things doing there?

      1. Sadie
        Boffin

        Electric is better too

        Electric trains are also a lot more powerful then diesel. A bog standard electric loco puts out about 8-9000hp - a very large diesel can do about 4000hp at best (and weighs a lot more - up to twice as much) - but big thing with Electic trains, they don't carry their own batteries, instead having a contact wire or rail fed from the national grid.

        Then again maybe that might be the way forward. have an electric grid suspended over the road and an earthed road surface. Pity someone already owns the patant on the Dodgem :)

      2. jake Silver badge

        Really.

        Most diesel trains are actually diesel-electric. The diesel engine runs a generator, which in turn powers the electric engines that move the train. Cuts out the middle-man, and attendant transmission losses.

        Side note: Your little TGVs are people-movers, not long-distance goods transport.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    How come only CO2 counts as emissions now

    Diesel cars emit less CO2 granted but they emit heaps more ODP (Ordinary Decent Pollution) than petrol cars. For example NOx emissions for a diesel are around 10x that for a petrol engine. Now NOx is what causes breathing problems and lung irritation in people particularly those with respiratory issues. Add to that PM10's, soot, SOx etc. and diesels are the biggest single contributor to dirty air in our towns and cities.

  18. Eddie Johnson
    FAIL

    Been Saying This For Years

    It took a scientific study to figure it out?

    Batteries do not generate energy, they are a storage mechanism just like your metal fuel tank. All they do is shift the pollution from your tailpipe to some big plant. The same goes for hydrogen power since hydrogen gas is typically manufactured thru electrolysis. The difference is your metal fuel tank has a nearly unlimited life time and a $200 replacement cost if necessary. Hybrid vehicles are a giant scam to get the average Joe paying a higher average price for his car with no economic advantage for the driver and no environmental advantage for society. Once you factor in the high cost of battery replacement and the limited number of charge cycles your fuel savings will never pay off.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Boffin

      @Eddie Johnson

      "The same goes for hydrogen power since hydrogen gas is typically manufactured thru electrolysis."

      No. Most Hydrogen, certainly the stuff fueling cars in California, is made by thermally cracking natural gas as are most other industrial uses. Hydrogen's supports would *like* it to be made by electrolysis.

  19. MrT

    I think they have already taken refinery emissions into account...

    The biggest difference between claimed and actual mpg is currently held by the Toyota Prius - claimed is around 66mpg, actual 48 mpg. Compare to BMW 520d, with claimed of 56mpg and actual just over 50mpg on the same run - Times online.

    And yet the Prius gets the plaudits for being 'eco'.

    So, i think there's a factor included to balance out the refinery emissions vs the powerstation emissions, giving roughly 40% increase in the economy figure for the diesel based on real-world figures (not claimed).

    Having said that, I'm not surprised by this - diesels have been getting very good recently, like the last 5 years. for example, my Vectra CDTi 150 has often beaten the official mpg on a tank average - the last time I filled up the trip computer projected a range of 974 miles, which I increased to 977 before it fell away - more realistically I get about 700 miles per tank (about 57 litres going in per time). After 100 miles the trip average was 64.4mpg by the optimistic computer (so knock off 8% or so for the under-geared and therefore over-reading speedo and I got about 59mpg - normally nearer 55mpg).

    Problem with electric cars are either one of recharge times or extra dead weight contributing to poorer performance - you can't choose to run a half-empty battery just to knock 30kg from the rolling weight. By all accounts, the Ampera drives like a diesel up to about 60mph - very torquey. The issue of recycling batteries at end of useful life is going to disappear as the technology used to reclaim the various elements improves.

  20. Paul Hovnanian Silver badge

    Hydropower? Noooo!

    Won't you please think of the children^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H fish.

    BTW, the correct units of consumption are light-years per cubic mile of gas (my car gets 2.3).

  21. Anonymous Coward
    IT Angle

    famed maker of cars(?) Peugeot is

    launching in 2011 a 2 litre turbo-diesel-electric "3008Hybrid4", diesel drives front wheels, 'leccy the rear ones - driving modes include 4WD when needed.

    quote/ using an already fuel-efficient diesel with 120 kW (163 bhp), the 3008 Hybrid4 manages a combined drive cycle fuel consumption of 3·8 l/100 km (74·4 mpg) and carbon dioxide emissions of 99 g/km. /quote

    but it's French!

  22. Kobus Botes

    Comparing apples with apples

    The one thing that has always bothered me about these comparisons, is that (to my mind, at least) not all polluting/damaging factors are taken into account.

    Only by taking *all* CO2-producing factors (since that is the current flavour of the month - a better indicator would be to include all polluting/damaging factors) into account over the life of the vehicle (i.e. from mining the minerals up to complete disposal/recycling of the vehicle at the end) can one arrive at the true measure of which is the environmentally better vehicle.

    For straight comparisons of vehicles (hybrid vs ic vs electric) one can obviously disregard common factors (like steel, plastic, glass, etc. production), as it would cancel out in any case.

    This method can (should, actually) be extended to the whole CO2 brouhaha^^^^mess^^^^palarva^^^^whatever (where's the strikethrough when one needs it?) if one *really* wants to know which industry/product is environmentally better or worse.

  23. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    Problems with electric vehicles

    "an electric motor will give you far more power to weight than an equivalent internal combustion engine these days, with a much better response curve"

    No it doesn't. The motor itself is lighter, but instead of 100 pounds of gas (I have a 16 gallon tank in my car). The Prius has about a 100 pound battery pack, and that'll move it like 2 or 3 miles.

    So the big issues I see with pure electric vehicles:

    1) Weight of the batteries. For real, if anyone makes a car light enough to be reasonable with all those batteries in it, they could drop a gas (or diesel) engine in the same vehicle and get crazy MPGs. If batteries come out with much better power density than present types, I won't be surprised if the tide isn't turned in the electric vehicle's favor. However....

    2) Infrastructure. Overlooking the fact that most power now is generated via coal, gas, etc., the fact of the matter is that there's nowhere near enough of a power grid to transport all that extra power electrically, not enough generating plants to generate the power, and so far the charging times are unreasonable. I mean, the pipe dream "wouldn't the electrical plug melt?" claims are like 15-30 minutes. I know on a road trip, I wouldn't want to wait that long at the gas station!

    That said I'm all for hybrids. I waste all sorts of potential energy having to slow down down hills to stay within the (artificially low) speed limits here in town, have to stop almost every single block due to a love of stop signs and stop lights (which are mistimed so usually it's normal to get at least 5 or 6 red lights in a row.). For me, enough to do 35MPH-0-35MPH would cover it, I'm sure I'd get a huge increase in mileage. (Probably capturing from 55MPH would be better, to cover cities with better speed limits than we're blessed with here.)

    1. M Gale

      If you read my post...

      ...you'll see that I said the only thing wrong the electric vehicles is the batteries. I know they are bulky and limited, but fuel cells are vastly less so.

      Still, not taking range into account, even with the bulk of a battery the electric motor puts out much better power:weight. You can see this on a small scale with the more recent RC aeroplanes out there. Sure, you can get a .40 methanol engine with an 8oz tank and it'll keep you flying at a sedate pace for maybe 15-20 minutes. Or you can put an electric motor in the same airframe and get 5 minutes of truly insane performance, even with that chunky 3-cell LiPo taking up weight. Think about it.. aircraft, especially little model aircraft, are somewhat sensitive to weight. In the last few years, brushless motors and lipo technology have made them not only the equal to methanol engines, but actually surpass them in power and responsiveness. Only disadvantage is.. as already mentioned.. the batteries, in this case taking an hour and a half to charge between 5 minute flights. Or maybe, for more ground-level endeavours, you can search youtube for the RC model car that, using a similar-sized motor and battery pack, gets over 140MPH. No, not a typo or "scale speed". One hundred and forty miles per hour. That little toy goes faster than some peoples' full sized sports cars!

      Fuel cells will be the electric motor's saviour, and could transform personal transportation. There are already pipe networks travelling across many countries, and I'm sure some of them could be co-opted for hydrogen use. Even if not, building an infrastructure like that is an investment that should pay for itself once the government starts taxing the bejeesus out of electrolyzed water.

  24. Nicholas Thomas
    Coffee/keyboard

    Delicious

    Article has good facts, but it's a shame about the tone in which they're presented.

    Range issues aside (and they will be sorted eventually), all-electric drivetrains are far superior to to the manual setup.

    Current diesels probably aren't at the absolute limits of efficiency, but they're reasonably close.

    Average contribution from renewables in the UK is <10% or so, if I remember correctly - so I could reduce the carbon footprint of an all-electric car by 5-10 times(!) just by switching energy supplier /today/: http://www.ecotricity.co.uk/about/OurFuelMix/

    We can make 'green' diesel too - biodiesel - but the electric tech is still superior (although the diesel still beats it in range, obviously) . And generating green energy doesn't cause food prices to shoot up in the same way that green diesel does.

    Mind you, I'm still buying a petrol or diesel when I get my first car - the range is the real killer at the moment, since I'll mostly be using my car for extremely long trips.

    If you're a commuter, chances are you're doing < 100 miles a day, and if you're buying your electricity from a company with a commitment to renewables /and/ future-proofing yourself, emissions-wise, an electric car is a good way to go.

  25. MJI Silver badge
    Happy

    3l car story

    There is a story that VAG heard about Renault working on a 3l Clio, they assumed that Renault were working on a car which did 100km on 3l of fuel.

    They spent ages working on this and I think the little Audi was the result (A2 I think).

    Then Renault released a Clio with a 3l V6 in the back.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Nice story

      I'd still take the A2 3L though; it's far more useful. Clio V6? Might as well drive an opel manta. But then, *useful* is rarely the reason why people buy cars.

      Ironic that 3L/100km cars are becoming more popular now that A2 production has already been stopped. They really should get over it and try again quickly. And find better marketing people.

      1. MJI Silver badge

        Manta - rather have a Monza thankyou

        A nice straight six hmm.

        Even though it is a bit of a boat anchor compared to the Ecotec V6s

        Still 3l cars though!*

        * Ok some Monzas were 2.8

      2. xj25vm

        Aud A2

        "They really should get over it and try again quickly. And find better marketing people."

        Not sure about that one - but I've been told the reason why they discontinued the A2 is that it was eating into the sales of the bigger and more expensive A3. I know several people who had an A2 - and they all say it was a great little car. That's only what I heard.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Badgers

    OK and to mix this up a little more

    Take a reasonably economic petrol car say a 1.6 small hatchback and have it converted to LPG (cost me exactly £791.80p in March) and I regularly do the 'petrol equivalent' of over 61 mpg.

    With the added advantage that I can boot it when I want and it doesn't sufffer from the new diesel woes DMF(Dual Mass Flywheel ) and DPF issues (Diesel Particulate Filter).

    So I may not be able to completely out green the weenies in their Pious' but in monetary terms I can wee all over them. Since a normal car plus conversion is far cheaper (several thousand) to buy than a hybrid.

    LPG 64.9 Unleaded 1.19 (my local garage) MPG on LPG is 33.40 which is a Petrol Equivalent of 61.23mpg...I really should get out more! Besides petrol prices are only ever going to go up aren't they.

    I pass four garages selling LPG twice a day. I've seen the future and it's not Garlic Bread it's LPG well it was the future a few years ago...meh!

    1. MJI Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      LPG as well

      But I use it with a V6, costs the same to run as a Diseasle but a fraction of the pollution and a much nicer engine noise.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Black Helicopters

        LPG is a great way to make running a large car really economical

        We also have a 2.5litre Auto SUV which now costs the same to fuel as a 1600 Fiesta.

        Since I've owned it from new (20K several years ago) and it's only done 50K I'm bu99ered if I'm going to get rid of it while there's still lots of usage to be had from it.

        Certainly not to please the greenie weenies.

        HMG will only be happy when us peasants are shuffling round in electric beer crates subsisting on turnips. Well llamedos!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Stop

      eh?

      Take a reasonably efficient petrol engined car, then change the primary fuel for one with less calorific value that will get worse mpg on lpg than on petrol and is actually just a bit of a green scam to boot. Nice the way you had to have "petrol equivalent" to skirt round this fact. And lpg pricing has been creeping up as more people had it and duty increased, although its still very low compared to actual petrol. And some petrol cars are fitted with dmf's, merc's etc...

      We ran a lpg mondeo estate about 10 years ago and my rangerover v8 was also thus equipped, however have bought diesels ever since ;)

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