back to article Tories declare students a burden on us all

Universities minister David Willetts did little to win over his new constituency by describing students as an unacceptable burden on UK taxpayers. Joining in the coalition government's frenzy of cutback soundbites ahead of next week's the Budget on 22 June Willetts said the costs of university education were a "burden on the …

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  1. Rogerborg

    Digs or dole

    If you consider "university" (I use that term in its broadest sense) as an alternative to dossing around on the dole, then it's possibly the least-bad solution.

    Of course, we *could* just re-assign funding to technical colleges and get Yoof out learning trades so that the next generation of plumber will actually speak some version of English, but as we know, asking people to work in return for money is tantamount to slavery. I don't know why you even suggested it, you filthy racialist.

  2. riparian zone
    WTF?

    Why bother? grrr.

    As a man who never went to uni, I understand that education is important (for opportunities in getting laid mainly;-) but also in an economic sense. I recall a story told to me about Finalnd struggling financially when Russia imploded, but they put their money where their mouth is and have a strong science driven education apparently. Oh yes, Nokia is not just a company, its a place.

    It is galling I'm sure for young'uns to put in those years and to come out with a stupid amount of money owing before they've even started earning, more so when their less ambitious 'peers' can do a year or so in a bleedin' college after and start making some decent money quite early on....witness plumbers, sparkies, other tradesmen in demand.

    They took away any financial assistance for the poor kids, and now blame them. bastards.

    p.s. I come from a place where the unemployment has never improved since the 80's.

  3. Neil Lewis
    Headmaster

    Then and now

    The university education system has long been used as a way of massaging unemployment figures. A large proportion of students are studying for 'junk' degrees with no prospect of work, simply because they would otherwise be on the dole. For the government, this not only looks better in terms of both unemployment figures and numbers of people in 'higher' education, it also means that a large proportion of the monies paid out will theoretically be repaid, unlike with the dole.

    I was fortunate enough to be at university back in the days when a grant rather than a loan was provided. That was manageable and overall beneficial for the economy so long the number of students was relatively small, degree courses were meaningful in terms of a career and graduates didn't leave the country in droves for better paid jobs abroad.

    The current situation is, frankly, a con and not supportable in the long term.

  4. Robert Carnegie Silver badge

    Serves this country right

    After the horrific failure of moral judgment that had us launching yet another war against Iraq (yes I know it was Bush's idea but even so), I wished for a new government that would properly punish the Labour Party in particular and also Britain as a whole, and it looks like I've got it. I want everything positive that Labour built in Britain torn down again and I will dance on the bits, singing "You Had It Coming You Xenophobic Jerks" to that tune which I think is by Sousa, you can work it out anyway (anyone?) Specific points that I had in mind: new school buildings, demolished. Well, it doesn't look good for the ones that aren't finished building yet. The wrecking ball is a distinct possibility. Hospitals, I want to see sold. Watch this space. And collapse of further and higher education? I hadn't thought about that, but yes please. Damn you Labour, damn me, damn us all. There is no just God to smite us down, so let's do it ourselves. As a side benefit, with any luck when President Obama wants us to join him invading Iran, which he certainly will, we'll be in no shape to oblige. I know I don't want to go but I don't want the inconvenience of shooting myself either (on the bright side the British Army will probably do that for me whan I tell them).

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Don't stop there

    How about making the school leaving age 15 again, then we can get rid of all those expensive students that stay on until 18, costing money and not even going to university.

    Perhaps we could look at the less bright ones at say 11 and force them into vocational training, what's the point of teaching music,art, religion to those too thick to make progress and get qualifications, if your going to have an uneducated underclass, it would be ideal to make it a cheap one.

    1. M Gale

      +1 Funny

      Though if you're not joking, you're scary.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The real problem

    The cost of useless courses such as the history and design of surfboards or media studies amongst others is indeed a burden on the tax payer. Also the fact that virtually any tin shed at the bottom of a garden can now apply for university status doesn't help either. There is also the belief that anybody should be able to go to university to study whatever they like, this probably started with specialised courses for the royals so they could get through, didn't one of them study the history of the Queens art collection?

    University status should be granted to a few select centres of learning with real subjects whether they be arts or science courses with limited places and proper government funding. Places should be awarded by a common university entrance exam.

  7. vic 4

    Fees related to courses?

    Pretty much everyone seems agreed we need more people doing engineering, science and the odd other useful course. Why not simply scrap or reduce fees for these courses and increase those on other courses for subjects that are not going to have any noticeable benefit to the country.

    1. ml100
      Thumb Up

      Agreed

      A sliding scale of funding from 0% for Surf Board Design Principles BA all the way up to 100% for Accountancy, Anything Engineering etc.

      Obviously the subsidy should be partially means tested so that we arent giving the children of the highly paid free Law degrees but by no means should we be subsidising Flower Arranging.

      I have no problem with people studying junk degrees if that is their passion, just don't expect tax payers to fund your 3 year holiday.

      1. M Gale
        Badgers

        However...

        I'm doing a degree in Computer Games Technology.

        Seriously.

        It's basically a computer science course, but has modules that focus on things like user interface design, neural networking, and 2D/3D interactive graphics. Also it's a 4-year sandwich course, so there's every possibility of me spending a year with $_insert_software_house_here, possibly doing basic code-monkey work for code-monkey pay.

        However it has the word "Games" in it. Would that mean less than 100% in your plan? ;)

        1. M Gale

          Well damn.

          Two downvotes. Some people must think computer games tech is one of those "useless" degrees.

          Tell me, oh omniscient downvoters: What's the point of having the best application in the world, if it looks like a bag of shit and has the UI of a 1950s mainframe? Especially in these days of embedded devices with solid state gyroes, accelerometers and high-resolution displays capable of displaying all sorts of.. oh.. interactive 3D graphics?

          Some people just don't know how to think laterally, do they?

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fees related to courses?

        From a funding point of view this would be a good idea for serious universities, however on an overall economic level it would make the tax burden worse.

        The real students would be fully funded and paid for which would be good for them, this money would eventually be recouped through income tax.

        However consider the sort of person who would want a new age degree and their potential future earnings. They are guarenteed a cheap loan backed by the government and tax payer, what are the chances they will manage to pay it back? We'll be left with an even large wad of defaulted loans.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Headmaster

        @ml100: I agree appart from...

        Accounting!

        If anyone wants to be an accountant they should apply directly to a big accountancy firms after sitting their 'A' levels.

        Not only will they be shown what to do (taught) by people who actually know what they are doing, the companies will pay for your causes/exams, and as you pass them you paid more. It does mean doing night school work rather than getting drink every night, but the end results are:

        No hugh debts, and if your are any good you will already be earning more than the new graduates who turn up in 3 years time.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Accounting

          I wanted to be an accountant but the careers advisor told me I was more suited to being a lion tamer.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Megaphone

    It's pretty clear. . .

    . . and not just from the (unusual) concensus on this board. Too many people have gone to Universities to gain degrees which do not repay the effort or the associated debt once the student graduates. University should be elitist in that you have to have a certain level of ability ot go there but egalitarian in that your financial background should be irrelevant.

    There must be a more efficient way to fund post-school training for those entering non-academic disciplines. I know plenty of bright but non-academic people that would have been wasting their time at University but have done very nicely than you in the 'real world'. Horses for courses and not utopian socialist experiments, please!

  9. Simon Day

    Nonsense targets

    The real nonsense is the target that 50% of school leavers should go to university. This is rubbish! Not everyone needs a degree, and while 3 years of more drinking, socialising and partying is rather fun, you shouldn't expect the rest of us to fund it for you.

    The target should be closer to 20% or 25%, the A levels harder so there is actually a useful distinction for your grades and the courses aimed to actually be useful in future career. That then halves the tax bill. If you want to go further you can increase the fees over all, but add scholarships tapering from full for the top 10% of school leavers down to partial for the next 10%.

    There is no shame in not being academic - for many, on the job experience and training is far more valuable than a degree - this applies to anything from plumbing to junior and middle management

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Headmaster

      Re: Nonsense targets

      Posting Annon to avoid complaints to relative; you don't know who's reading this.

      I have a relative who is a secondary school teacher; on a number of occasions they have had pupils asking for advise on how to counter the bullying from head teachers trying to make them go to university when they don't want to go.

      They explain to the pupil the fact that all the head teachers want is a better league table position for the school and getting kids into university is an easy and cheap way to do it.

      The recommended response to the bullying is: "Say Yes; but only if they or the school is willy to pay for it".

  10. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    Try fixing the root cause first!!!

    Hey, I'm no Tory, but calling them nasty after we've endured the last lot of civil-liberty eroding, loose spending, war mongering dribbling goons is a bit of a stretch!

    It's not the students that are an issue per se, rather the volume of 'em. With courses available like golf course management, hotel and leisure management and other pointless coffee cup degrees it's hardly surprising! What this vapid minister needs to understand is that the leading group of research universities (The Russell Group -http://www.russellgroup.ac.uk) are also consistently the leading teaching universities *because* of the research that they do, very definately NOT in spite of it. Even if this isn't taken into account, it's not really a logical leap to suggest that strong research goes hand in hand with strong teaching. Having a university lecturer for a partner, I am fully aware that the majority of them are having to work with students that have been spoonfed their entire academic career. The quality of applicants is dropping year on year, corralating interestingly with the rise year on year in A-level results. Perhaps Her Majesty's Government would do better to look at the compulsory level education system and it inability to produce quality candidate due to teachers not being allowed to teach, through no fault of their own, before they destroy the excellent university system we have in this country. Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting teachers are at fault, far from it, the system is.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Troll

      According to a friend who is secondary school teacher...

      The reason that the quality of modern education is so bad is the combination of the league tables and the fact that there are about 7 exam boards.

      The schools don't teach subjects, they train pupils in passing the exams, as this means higher league table scores and it's eaier than teaching the real subject.

      The schools want good pass rates so will always try to use the exam boards that provide the easiest papers, league table rule!.

      The exam boards only get money for the exams that are purchased, so the get lots on money they have to compete for the easiest papers that the government will allow.

      A troll as even he could get degree today!

      End result:

      One 'A' level from 30 years back would be the equivalent of about getting 4 today, with GCSE's having a similar ratio with the old 'O' levels.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    WTF?

    Think of it as a business

    Fact is, on average, those with degrees pay more taxes over their lifetimes - much more than the cost to the state of their Universtiy education.

    Overall it makes a profit for the treasury.

    So where is the burdon?

    If you must charge for it, make it loans. By shifting the cost to taxation, you unfairly make those who take "real" degrees pay more, and those who take "pretend" degrees will essentially get away with all of the costs.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Unhappy

      re: Think of it as a business

      That was true 20-30 years ago, but now a graduate is just as likely to spend years flipping burgers.

      Some degree courses should come with a wealth warning:

      "Doing a degree in Media Studies will seriously damage your job prospects"

  12. P. Lee
    Headmaster

    internal markets

    It appears that we are reaping the results of money following student "customers" to academic "suppliers." Lots of the junk degrees need to disappear and some structure needs to reward academic achievement, not popularity.

    Yes, I really mean academic achievement, not income-earning projects and commercialisation opportunities.

    Perhaps then universities would then begin to care more about the quality of the students and the education they receive than the income they represent.

    From the other side, education is for the development of the individual. It isn't job training.

  13. Elmer Phud
    Grenade

    first they . . .

    First they devalue Universities by letting anyone open a disused public toilet as a University to increase the numbers of Brits with degrees.

    Then they don't have enough students so open it up to foreign students more in the hope of grabbing huge amounts of dosh.

    After a while (and out of power) they decide that education has been cheapened and there are too many foreign (read as 'not enough rich' foreign) students over here.

    Then there are too many poor people being educated.

    Now it's time to have another go.

    Don't these Tories ever stop fucking up education.

    'Fail' just isn't enough so

  14. phoenix
    Alert

    Tories

    are out to mash up everything their dirty little hands were unable to bash up before, using the same old hacked cock they did when Mrs T came to power. "The previous Government has squandered a load of cash and now you will have to pay for it all". Funny back then, as now, circumstances over - took the Labour Government and were beyond most of their control.

    Universities have moved from seats of learning to money grabbing shits who care jack for their students and then complain there still is not enough cash coming in. I remember well under Major when all the freebies were whipped away from us, then students, and the loans came in with the attitude that you , having a degree would earn on average 20 -30 percent more in your working life than without one. Which one would assume we as degree holders wouldin fact pay 20-30 more tax than not having a degree and therefore easily cover any cash the loans were trying to replace.

    This country needs a number; circa 20% of people to go on to higher learning in useful subjects and another 20 % to learn useful trades to replace all the migrant trades-people, that will inevitably go home once they have saved enough cash from working here, at our trades rates, to buy their homes outright, and go on the live a more comfortable life. While we will be left with a massive skills short fall in building and allied trades that will take years to recover from. Bring back Government funded, apprentiships that mean something and train our workers to compete at he highest level with rest of the world.

    Thats my, more than, three penny worth.

  15. lglethal Silver badge
    FAIL

    Dear El Reg...

    Could you please do a ring around to all the MP's and ask them exactly how much they paid in course fees for their University degrees.

    It would be interesting to see because i would guarantee that 99% of the b*stards obtained there degrees in the good ol' days when Univeristy Education was free and paid for happily by the state...

    Isnt it terrific that our wonderful representatives are pulling up the rope behind them that helped them climb to their "successful" careers?

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Grenade

    "Oxbridge go research-only"

    Not as easy as you might imagine, though by no means impossible. There's currently too much money and prestige coming from the sons and daughters of rich folk (mostly foreigners, but maybe the occasional Brit) for Oxford (don't know about The Other One) to go research-only in the short term.

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Unhappy

    A Physicist writes

    The "old deal" whereby society paid for a small percentage of bright students to study, in return for cultural, academic and technological enrichment of said society, was a good idea. Labour lost the plot, equating the ideal of equality of opportunity with simple equality - all people are actually equal. They are clearly not, though they are of broadly equal worth. It is an insult that we use only one metric - academic intelligence, and grade 50% of any school year as below average, there are other measures, craftsmanship, leadership, organisation, even simple "graft". Most of the latter set are best taught through direct experience, they are arts not sciences. As a society we cannot afford for 50% of people to lose 3 years of their working life, well not without everyone else having to work a bit harder to cover the gap. There is the question of expectations also, fresh graduates are worth less than they think, its the truth, and this disincentivises them to get on the jobs ladder. Finally, lowering the market value of a degree means less people take "hard" subjects, like Physics, when they can get an equivalent degree certificate in something easier, and possibly with a better grade. Shit, how did we get to this?

    1. Ted Treen
      Alert

      Seemples!

      We got to this by allowing a ruling class of professional politicos - mostly "qualified" as lawyers and/or spin doctors; few of whom have ever had a real job in the real world - to micro-manage our society.

      They're red-hot on social engineering theory, totally lacking in experience and understanding, and the only outstanding feature of the great majority of them is a (misplaced) arrogance and incredible ego.

      T paraphrase King Henry, "Will no-one rid us of these turbulent wofflers?"

  18. Anonymous Cowherder
    Flame

    Same old tired lines

    "media studies" "worthless degrees"

    I've got a history degree, a "proper" subject. Absolutely worthless, I work in IT. Although I did once use my in-depth understanding of the regency economy to fix a baffling dns problem and my knowledge of the rise of fascism in early 20th century Europe is the cornerstone of our managed desktop strategy (thinking about it, that one might actually be true?)

    What a degree does show is that an employee is capable of performing to a certain level, able to meet deadlines and shows evidence of independent thought. Even if the degree they took contained modules in Madonna's pointy tits, the student would have picked up transferable skills that can be applied in the work place.

    Plus in many (not all, granted) doing a degree does equip a person with the drive to succeed, they've put 3 years in and don't want to get stuck in a bloody call centre taking crap from people on the phone and battling the incoherent IT systems they are forced to work with.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Scrounging, Hypocritical MPs...

    ...considering that the proposal is being announced by an Oxbridge graduate who has likely never paid an ounce of real tax (i.e., MP pay is just recirculation) and therefore never contributed back a penny that my grandparents and parents worked their asses of to pay for.

    I know the 1960s generation venomously hates young people, but when did this move to just hating education and actively limiting ambitions above starting stations in life?

  20. Graham Bartlett

    Need to ask what the point of degrees is

    Why do people want to take a degree? I can think of three reasons. The first is that it provides the necessary basic training in an area where they plan to work. The second is that it teaches them about something they're interested in, with no particular application. And the third is that they want to kill time for a bit, and a degree seems like a good way of putting off working for another 3-4 years.

    In the first case, your degree is a path to a better-paid job. The debt is a bugger, but it's something you can pay off with the increased wages. And the jobs that result from this provide the country as a whole with innumerable benefits from the skilled workforce.

    In the second case, it benefits no-one except yourself, really. If you want to pay for it then fine, but there's no particular reason to expect anyone else to pay for you. I've done a few adult-education courses (tai chi, dance, languages) and I didn't expect anyone to subsidise my hobbies. Some funding to ensure the most skilled practicioners keep up a high standard is acceptable (subsidise top orchestras, for example), but otherwise this is just a hobby and you can damn well pay for it yourself. £20K for three years being taught a hobby? That's not a bad deal.

    And in the third case, if you're just tatting around at uni to pass the time then I've got sod all sympathy for you.

    What unis - and students - need to realise is that parrotting "20% more salary for graduates" is a load of old cock. A very cursory look at job prospects in the field you're choosing to study will tell you whether there are real jobs out there or not. And for the vast majority, the answer is "not". Forensic science? 2-digit numbers of new jobs a year, with a 3-digit graduate count. Music technology? Single-digit new jobs, with a 4-digit graduate count. If you've got any kind of brains and drive, you'll get a shitload more out of 3 years of working from the ground up than you'll get from 3 years of uni.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Heart

    How ironic it is....

    That people posting here see themselves as paragons of the well educated citizen. Yet... 85% of them seem to have had their cranial cavities filled with two decades of spin about nearly everything to with "NuLab" and specifically here "Students & Higher Education".

    1 ) When Labour was Socialist in the 1970's and came to power the Saudi's and others pulled their money out of London, that precipitated the decline of the Economy in that period. Fear of "Socialism" by wealthy foreign investors killed the Economy.

    2) New Labour is not socialist. It is in fact similar in principle to the Tories, the one difference being that New Labour invested in the Welfare State. However both parties have applied principles of management in Private Industries to the Public Sector.

    3) New Labour did not cause the global financial meltdown, bad loan books that were given AAA ratings by the rating companies who had no understanding of these new SFV's did.

    4) The current deficit was caused by this collapse not by Labour "overspending" on Public Services and in this case Education.

    5) The Myth that all this debt has to be paid off quickly seems to have established itself in the minds of the weak willed. Historically debt of this size was easily managed over the period of a few decades without destroying economic growth and the public sector. Our current debt is minuscule in comparison to that which the country had after the 7 Years War and World War 2.

    6) The Tories have basically created this idea of a "debt crisis" that doesn't actually exist as a convenient vehicle for dismantling the state including the bits there are actually quite vital.

    7) This country has principle areas of industry. Currently much of that industry is tertiary. There are very few useless degrees despite the vitriolic spewings of those who have jump on the "Bash the Students" bandwagon. Take the example of Book Binding that is sited. Book Binding is a damn difficult vocation it requires a lot skill especially when we're talking about restoration, which is an expensive business. Book restoration is an incredibly lucrative business and there is a demand for it.

    8) The issue here is that Supply and Demand are very rarely at parity there may be too many Golf Course management graduates out there and too few Golf Courses. Whether you believe Golf Course Management could be taught at a college or isn't worthy of a degree is either here nor there.

    9) In addition the state is getting £15,000 + Interest back from that student in most cases a Graduate will always end up earning more than £15,000 per year. Rather than a burden Students are actually paying into the Higher Education system and Government coffers.

    10) Equality has been mentioned here, Some people seem to have this frankly insane notion that people who are stupid or lazy are born that way, They are not in many cases they may well come from a background of abuse or poverty, or sometimes even the reverse where smothering and wealth have made them idle. Either way the point is trying to give as many people as possible a civilized education is an attempt to remedy that issue of inequality a noble if somewhat unachievable aim.

    11) Is mass unemployment and a large unskilled underclass of middle class waifs and strays really going to be more cost effective for Government than at least trying to make them useful to society even if many of them end up working in Advertising ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How ironic it is....

      Ignoring most of your points due to them being more like a party political broadcast than anything to do with the topic in question and focussing on a couple of them, 7 and 8.

      Nobody has suggested that certain tasks are not necessary, undesirable nor a waste of time merely that having a degree in such subjects is. Your examples are ideal. there is no need for a class full of students learning book binding nor golf course management. The former would be more suited to a master craftsman / apprenticeship model. The latter to less intensive on the job training with maybe a weekend jolly on how to ride a lawn mower, hardly befitting of a centre of learning. In both cases the trainee would not be taking valuable resources from the education system and would be getting paid rather than paying.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        How ironic it is....

        The earlier points I believe were dealing with the claptrap people were loading their comments with including, tripe like "When Labour get in the they always ruin the economy and the Conservatives have to fix it !11!?"

        As for Golf course Management I believe a good case can be made for it as a degree. Essentially managing a Golf Course involves, Design & Implementation, Business and Accounting as well as managing the ecology and biology of the course itself along with perhaps some minimal chemistry.

        Similar can be said of Book Restoration/Binding, though in this case the work of skilled artisans and some elementary chemistry is all that is required, Perhaps not University level stuff, however it is a dying industry that oddly is still in demand especially as Antique books always need restoration at some point. Therefore it is something that must be preserved as there are so few practitioners local colleges may not be able to find staff to do it so County Universities are probably the best place for it in those terms.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Megaphone

      Re: How ironic it is....

      "That people posting here see themselves as paragons of the well educated citizen. Yet... 85% of them seem to have had their cranial cavities filled with two decades of spin about nearly everything to with "NuLab" and specifically here "Students & Higher Education"."

      Especially the latter, but then again we're back to the debating ways of the Britards. Now, I'll go along with your points (1) and (2), but then it starts to fall apart:

      "3) New Labour did not cause the global financial meltdown, bad loan books that were given AAA ratings by the rating companies who had no understanding of these new SFV's did."

      Whether it was "no idea" or whether the ratings agencies were participants in the fraud, those instruments were fraudulent, like relabelling out-of-date produce and selling it as fresh produce. Now...

      "4) The current deficit was caused by this collapse not by Labour "overspending" on Public Services and in this case Education."

      This may also be true. The amount of "missing money" (hint to prosecutors: ask the people who cooked the books) may even dwarf spending on illegal wars, but a large amount of money in the form of general prosperity became available for spending by the government. Because lenders were not knowingly staring into the abyss, it became possible to borrow at reasonable rates, and that's what happened throughout the land.

      Points (5), (6) and (7) I'll go along with, too. The book-binding point is very well made. As for point (8), even one golf course is one too many. ;-)

      And I agree with your remaining points. In fact, the Britard representatives of the governments of the last few decades - so that's Tory and Labour - have neglected the well-being of education in the land, either penny-pinching because the money is "needed" elsewhere ("Sir Rupert needs another few million to spend on guns and tanks!") or corrupting the purpose of an education system by letting anyone and their dog/god peddle filler material so that pupils leave school with little more than an indoctrination handed down by those who devised the deficient curriculum in question.

      That's why the average Britard sentiments of "bloody students" and "free degrees for everybody" (exercise: join the rhetoric up with the political party concerned) are inadequate knee-jerk reactions to a problem that nobody wants to address, because it would require actual thought sustained over more than a minute. Education should be about giving everyone the tools they need to be social, confident and competent participants in a modern society. The issue being avoided is how the pieces - including the university system - can be put (back) together to deliver precisely this thing that society desperately needs.

  22. Mr F&*king Grumpy
    Pint

    Oh, the memories...

    Get those students off our backs

    Cut their grants

    Cut our tax!!

    Socialist Wiiirker, Fatcher Ahrt, Save the GLC

    Small boys, jumpers for goalposts

    Wonderful

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    (untitled)

    Education is an investment for a community, not a burden.

    It only becomes a burden if someone has the hare brained idea that everyone should get maximum education whether they and society benefits for it sufficiently or not, and is in a position to force that through.

    But no society would be that stupid, would they ?

  24. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Headmaster

    Free Money dreamers gonna keep on dreaming

    That is all

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    Do the maths

    I graduated in 2005 so aren't lucky enough to have my loan wiped out after 25 years as newer loans are. I currently owe around £18k. If I only earn average wage then the loan will NEVER be repaid. Hopefully I will eventually earn above average wage but with more and more people going to University the value of the degree is dissolving so this becomes more and more unlikely. So as the article states something needs to be done about this because it's unsustainable.

  26. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Happy

    Show the kiddies the brutal truth.

    List course Vs Grade Vs *average* salary on completion.

    Let them make up their *own* minds.

    My instinct is you'd get a glut of people in something as the top earning potential shifted around between subjects, at *first*.

    Then people would settle down. The money chasers would continue to chase the money. People who'd been brainwashed since birth to go into the family profession would still do so and everyone else would either aim to make average (because they were OK with living on that to begin with) or accept that they'd have to work damm hard at their chosen profession if they wanted to make better.

    This doesn't resolve *how* you fund but it might make for more *informed* decisions.

    Finally an actual function for a government (or actually QUANGO) run website.

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    degree of excellence

    Ok, im going to stoke the fire on this one, in my opinion a degree is a "degree of excellence" ie it should be only for those with exceptional abilities within an academically excepted subject.

    at this moment in time students fall out of school or college an move in to uni not because they are looking to become a highly educated professional, they do it because its the socially excepted thing to do. I mean come on, we all want our kids to do well and would rather they went to uni because that’s what they have to do, isn’t it?

    well that’s crap, in all my years employing people i no longer look at academic qualifications beyond high school, if they have something more than good for them but it won’t get them a job, the simple reason is any idiot out there can get some form of degree or another and most of those people are completely detached of the reality of work they are almost worse than useless.

    People who have worked their way through job positions have a much firm grasp of work and their abilities tend to be much stronger.

    The simple fact is this, the world is full of jobs, and only a small percentage need degrees, if you put everyone through a degree you devalue the degree, people who have worked hard at a degree suddenly find it hard to get a job because they all want the best spots, they then may feel cheated when they cant get "that" job they wanted, is it their fault? no its not, its this nation we live in that has made a degree in to something its not meant to be, its be made in to part of the standard education system which it should never be.

    I feel sorry for students now, but i can promise you something, if you leave school, work hard you can go anywhere and the chances are you will be a better person for it when you make that top job.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Mad Cow Thatcher

    will be chuckling contentedly to herself.

    Damn the woman.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Boffin

    "unacceptable burden"

    Amazing how much of a unacceptable burden I feel paying all that extra tax as a result of the wages I can now command because of my degree.

    How about a deal. I will pay back every penny (including interest) on every penny spent on my university education if i get taxed the same as an average taxpayer?

    I will be up on the deal by the end of the year!

  30. Captain Thyratron

    Most of these people are better off with a McJob. No, really.

    It will be this way as long as we pervert the purpose of universities.

    There are three especially pernicious lies:

    That university education is for everybody;

    That university education is a means to an end, namely to put a feather in your cap so you can get a job;

    That you need a university education to get a good job.

    Sadly, the pervasive belief in the first and second have made the third true in some places, which only makes things worse. Eventually they'll all be true, and by then, we won't have universities anymore--just an expensive and unnecessary extension to public schools. If we understood the point of universities, there wouldn't be degree-mills. I get spam from those on a daily basis.

    The function of higher education is to enrich a civilization by cultivating science, philosophy, the arts, and literature, and to educate people whose function in society is to preserve its accumulated intellect and to further it. Universities are not a means to an end! They are not job training! They have no commercial purpose, and they turn to shit when you give them one! Nobody should be at a university who is not there for the sake of learning--and learning for the sake of learning. What you do with that learning is your business and yours alone, but you should not be there unless you want to learn. I do not want to hear another student say that he is only here because he will make a lot of money with a degree in material science--and woe is he that he should have to learn calculus and organic chemistry, because he doesn't like learning; he just wants the qualifications because he likes MONEY--but I know I will hear it, or something analogous to it, from hundreds more (many of whom will fail out when they realize that they have to learn; worried as I am by their presence, I will really start to worry when these sort of people STOP failing).

    If you want job training, that's what trade schools are for--or, hey, get this, apprenticeships! But nobody does that anymore for some reason or other. Alternatively, you could just go out and GET A JOB. There is work out there, mostly shunned by new entrants to the workforce who think that their working lives should start with a nice office with a fat salary that they did nothing to earn. Will your first job be awesome and profitable? No, because you have no work experience! Curiously, this is usually still true even if you have a degree--except that now you have wasted four years and a heap of cash, while you would already be employed and have years of work experience--which would let you get a better job, because now people know you an hold a damn job and get work done, unlike the average college student--if you simply hadn't bothered with college.

    The only jobs that genuinely need college education are jobs that actually involve some kind of hard science, heavy mathematics, or engineering skills--but that stuff is actually hard, and stuff which you will be no good at learning unless you actually enjoy learning it, so most folks who go to a university would rather avoid that when they've been told all their lives that a degree in technical communication, business administration, or something equally worthless will land them a fat paycheck in some job where they get paid to do nothing important. I do not mean to discredit the liberal arts--however, those are definitely not something you study for money. But you shouldn't study anything just to make money! Like ANY academic subject, you should study them because you enjoy learning them.

    Three centuries from now, nobody will care how many people went to Cambridge because it would make their résumés look better; plenty of people, however, will remember such names as Isaac Newton, Srinivasa Ramanujan, and Stephen Hawking, and ideas like Newtonian mechanics and the physics of black holes. Nobody will care how many white-collar tools went to the California Institute of Technology so that they could pursue unremarkable lives in cubicles doing shit nobody cares about; they will, however, remember Richard Feynman and quantum electrodynamics. That's what univesities are for. Consider Grigori Perelman, the mathematician who proved the Poincaré cojecture. He cracked one of the hardest nuts in the history of mathematics--one of the millenium prizes--and turned down not only the million-dollar prize, but the FIELDS MEDAL! He didn't care about money or prestige. He cared about mathematics. That's the kind of guy who ought to be at a university.

    If any of these cubicle rats do go on to do something that makes them famous, does anyone care which university they attended, or even, indeed, whether they attended one at all? We remember Bill Gates and Steve Jobs because they made a huge mark on the world and ran very successful businesses; yet, neither even finished college. (Scott McNealy did, and I hear his company's doing just swell!)

    As long as we value universities as no more than a means to an end, rather than value learning and the cultivation of culture and intellect in their own right, we will have this mess. I have to agree with this guy--in its present state, higher education is a burden on society because it has lost sight of its purpose, and now taxpayer money pays for thousands of people to have expensive, largely unnecessary résumé-padding. It's been watered down to that, and it's terrible. I do not object to how much money goes into universities, but to what little it accomplishes as things stand, and what this idea that universities are just a means to an end has done to universities.

  31. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    apprenticeships?

    "If you want job training, that's what trade schools are for--or, hey, get this, apprenticeships! But nobody does that anymore for some reason or other. "

    I presume you mean that no UK business does that any more, in which case I agree in general, which is a considerable shame. Many years ago, I had the benefit of a "graduate apprenticeship" on an EITB-approved IEE-approved scheme. EITB gone, IEE/IET irrelevant, and training largely non-existent where I work now.

    But in the real world, in the bigger picture, as far as I know, our economic competitors (Germany etc) still do apprenticeships or equivalent, and they definitely understand the value of post-school education, whether it be an academic degree or something more practical.

    Speaking of Germany, here's a thought for those who say low cost manufacturing in China has permanently destroyed Western manufacturing opportunities. Go buy an Aldi own-brand product (presumably Lidl too, don't know for sure). Check out where it's made. Chances are it will be made in Europe (quite possibly Germany) by a European company. Now try the same in Tesco or Wal-mart. Why the difference?

    The US and UK may have abandoned manufacturing and the associated jobs to the great god Global Capitalism, but many other countries/companies/governments haven't been so utterly stupidly shortsighted.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Happy

      @AC 09:45

      Bang on about Germany. Here competative manufactring output means she was / is in the black wrt her economy (more product flowing out that being bought in). Off topic: I am waiting for the fight between Osbourne and Cable that will smash up the ConLibs.

  32. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    solution

    Only fund science, maths, medicine and engineering courses/students. If you wanna learn something else you're welcome to it but you're paying full price.

    If you can wrap your head around science and maths, you can wrap it around pretty much anything else you're interested in doing. Developing countries know this, that's why you won't catch any child in China spouting off about how he hates maths. Something's gone horribly wrong in England when the ability to perform even basic mental arithmetic is seen as uncool and unnecessary by school children, and shockingly, some graduates too. It's okay to be bad a maths, it's the fact that many people are actually proud of their lack of ability that is disturbing. There should be no way that people like that can make it into university and get a degree.

    Also, I think that maybe 18 is a bit young for a university education. There's a world of choices out there, even within the field you're interested in studying. People are shoehorned into making a choice in their spare time as they do their A levels - and half of them end up dropping out a year later when they realise their course is nothing like what they actually expected. This happens because people make their choices having had no grounding in reality, most of them have only worked a fortnight in their life before attending a university.

    So here's my suggestion, it should be common practice to send people out to work for a year or 2 after they do their A levels, it's not all that important what they do or where, it's the real world experience that counts - and the free time to make a real decision about their future, at their leisure, based on the things they learn about the world and themselves having actually lived in it for a while. What's the rush?

    Better to learn anything now rather than take the time to figure out what you actually want to learn? No, wrong.

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Dirty Dancing

    My neice started taking a media studies course and the teacher openly admited that her favourite film of all time was Dirty Dancing.

    That tells me all I need to know about waste in higher education.

  34. Ascylto
    Pirate

    Two-Brains

    Why are we even listening to "two brains" Willetts?

    Did he get his degree(s) in a brown paper envelope like the bribe he took to ask questions in the House? Yes, some of us are old enough to remember the dissembling Willetts ... money-grubbing scumbag.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Pint

      .... Lol !

      Ah yes involved with the Al' Fayed and Tiny Roland vendetta...

      Dec 1996 - David Willetts forced to resign over an investigation into Neil Hamilton that found that Willets had lied and rigged evidence over 'Cash for Questions'.

      You see... Sleaze though not uniquely Tory now days is was and will forever be their hallmark.

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