Adobe man to Apple: 'Go screw yourself'
Adobe platform evangelist Lee Brimelow has told Apple to "go screw yourself," upbraiding the Cupertino cult for banning iPhone and iPad applications translated from code Steve Jobs doesn't like. Such code includes - most famously - Adobe Flash. Yesterday, Apple released an updated SDK for the upcoming iPhone 4.0 OS, and unlike …
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Adobe have been saying...
.. go screw yourself to Mac users for over a decade now with severely sub-standard software releases for the platform. Wake up you Adobe fuckwits and smell the coffee, Apple have got sick of your tiresome bullshit and you absolutely fucking deserve what you are getting from them.
I wonder...
...if Apple really IS out to get Adobe. Perhaps we'll know better if some internal Apple memo somehow finds its way into Wikileaks...
Why should consumers give a toss?
Consumers like software that is compact, runs fast, doesn't suck battery life, doesn't crash, is designed well for the platform and so on...
Developers are obviously more interested in cutting corners, writing one game that runs on many platforms. This is hardly in the interests of the end user. It's about time someone made a stand against the increasing bloat and abstraction in software.
Huh?
Its not just Adobe that's blocked, MonoTouch, Titanium, Corona etc all vastly superior tools to the dreadful SDK from Apple, its like travelling back a decade. This will mean more badly written apps not fewer.
On the other hand its great news for Rock Your Phone and their ilk as the grey market will now go mainstream. Apps like MyWi and My3G were compelling enough reasons for me to ditch Apple, but most consumers will want more - now they'll get it in spades. Cross-compiling stuff you're doing anyway is little effort, developers will take a punt and throw apps out to the opposition - without needing to jump the Jobsian hoops and paying a cheaper ferryman.
Apple have always had a shitty attitude to developers, but never before have I seen so many, so angry. Easy to make smug and clueless comments about CS5 [an unknown quantity, unlike much of what is now 'banned'], but a lot of developers have their livelihoods invested in propelling the iPhone to success - push comes to shove the hardware and OS are now poor compared to competitors, its developers not Apple that are responsible for its current success and they who added the actual value.
Compromise
There are other ways of developing apps without the official SDK, in compliance with the new terms. Some compaines rely on it (eg. Grapple Mobile). Adobe can read the terms and adapt but they are being irrational.
Adobe should make Flash efficient, release a Windows 64 bit version, support 64 bit for their other apps - eg Premier Elements, Photoshop Elements.
If yor are whiter than white then people might give criticism some credence.
CS4
At the time CS4 launched Apple still claimed Leopard was 64bit (even though it wasn't) they only launched proper 64bit support with Snow Leopard so is Adobe expected to recode CS4 just for Snow Leopard's arrival ? Windows has had proper 64 bit support since XP so it's really Apple's fault there is not 64 bit PS for Macs.
I don't need Daddy Jobs censoring my life so I'll stick with Android thanks.
Untrue
Adobe specifically exclude support for Premier Elements and Photoshop Elements on 64 bit windows.
Flash for 64 bit windows is overdue - hence not many people use the 64 bit version of IE.
Makes no sense at all
Adobe could just change their translation tool so it dumps the data in an enormous C array and that's what gets recompiled.
Of course Apple vindictive and petty so they'd probably disallow that too.
adobe vs mac
if adobe stop producing cs for mac... mac's figures will drop drasticaly. curently there arent any apps that do what cs does for any of the platforms.. i rate adobe should rather focus on win / linux for cs. leave the mac fan boys to their over priced systems.
handgrenade... cause its only time before apple get hurt back for what they doing to consumers / partners
Really?
I don't know one Mac user who bought CS. We bought Mac's because we just were tired of Microsoft sub standard products, and was going to go nowhere near Vista.
And when this MacBook dies in a few years, I'll buy another one.
Boo Hoo
Handbags at 10 paces? What a cry baby. I love his well thought out reasoned argument. (??)
Lets see now. Apple market shared in the US about 10%, the rest Windows, in terms of desktops. So what is there to worry about? Mobile phones that can browse the net, I'm not sure, but the IPhoneor IPad is certainly not 90%, or even 50%. so what is he so concerned about?
I'll tell you what the problem is, he has no real life, does not see the Sun and real people. His world is full of code, crap and nerds. Go outside, without any tech, it's real.
As Oliver pointed out Adobe are equally evil in the way they price their products, and charge far too much for minor tweaks.
Why wait?
Opera for Mac has been out since, like, forever. What are you waiting for? It's a few revisions behind Opera for Windows, but so are the Linux etc. versions.
Um, er...
I'm using Opera (10.10) on my Dual 2.0 G5 as default browser, and have been for some time....
Knee-jerks
Let me tell all the moo-ing Apple haters what this is about:
This is about Apple's view of what the user experience should be on the iPhone (you know, that product that *they* make...) and their view of what needs to be done to preserve that. This is about the newly announced multitasking, and making sure that their implementation isn't the resource-hogging, battery-draining clusterfuck that it is on most other mobile platforms. In order to support multitasking without completely hammering battery life, iPhone OS 4 strips back background apps to just a handful of carefully managed threads, just the bare minimum to provide the necessary functionality (background audio playback, file transfer etc.). It cannot do this if it doesn't know exactly how the code is laid out. It knows how code is laid out in an application bundle produced by Xcode. It doesn't know how code is laid out in an application bundle produced by, oooh, say... Flash CS5...?
It's worth pointing out that this form of multitasking is very similar to Android's, but Google doesn't place as many restrictions on which languages developers code their apps in. That makes some developers happy, but it also results in a situation where Task Killer apps even have a reason to exist on Android. Apple doesn't want their users to ever need to think about such things, and in order to deliver that, developers have to work to a tighter set of specifications.
Now, your average forum troll wouldn't necessarily know this, but Brimlow *should*, and to my mind his whole attitude is colossally disingenuous.
This isn't about Flash, specifically. Adobe is flattering themselves if they think it is. This is about Apple fighting against Android. Comparatively speaking, I don't think Steve Jobs could give a flying fuck about Adobe.
Brilliant post
Well said, couldn't have worded it better myself (not by a long shot!).
I keep saying it's all about protecting the user experience, the philosophy that Apple imbues into each of the products it creates.
People get all hot and bothered about "lock down" and "app rejection" but what doesn't accompany those hollow complaints is "what specifically this product doesn't do that you need it to do." The response is always, "I want the system opened so I can fiddle with it." Which translates actually into "you want a system in which others can fiddle to the detriment of the device in my hands!" Thank you, no, you can't have it completely open because I want my user experience perfect.
Blah blah blah
No this is about Apple blocking people from accessing millions of flash apps and keeping everyone on their App store.
They are welcome to do it on their own platform but tthey just don't have a right to expect developers to hang around for it, Android is as big a shadow on Apple's horizon as Windows was in the 90's.
Soon Android will running on set-top boxes, home phones and even Microwaves.
Nope
"Let me tell all the moo-ing Apple haters what this is about:
This is about Apple's view of what the user experience should be on the iPhone (you know, that product that *they* make...) and their view of what needs to be done to preserve that."
No it's not. It's about lock-in. It was bad when MS did it, it was bad when IBM did it, and it's still bad today. Everyone who tries it waves the "consistent user experience" or "QA" cards, but it's always about keeping control of the user locked down tight.
"I don't think Steve Jobs could give a flying fuck about Adobe."
His actions suggest otherwise.
And maybe
And maybe, someday, the average consumer will actually care about andriod.
You're wrong, David Simpson 1
It's not about Apple keeping you (for some petty reason) away from joyful times on a device, it's about protecting the user experience at the core of all their products.
I take it that some sites (though, I have turned off Flash and don't miss it, and only find myself turning it back on to view some YouTube video embedded in someone's Facebook post) we won't be able to enjoy, but that's a temporary thing. They will transition to non-Flash because they wouldn't want to miss out on the millions and millions of users who have devices that don't view Flash.
It will (hopefully sooner rather than later) and when it does, when they start embracing open standards, we'll all benefit.
BTW, Android will *never* be running in my home phone or microwave!
Blah blah indeed...
"No this is about Apple blocking people from accessing millions of flash apps and keeping everyone on their App store."
I don't think you understand the difference between not having Flash in the browser, and not using Flash to write apps...
"They are welcome to do it on their own platform but tthey just don't have a right to expect developers to hang around for it"
And so your point is...?
Apple haters
Apple deserves to be hated because it does not respect it's customers.
I've bought many of Apple's products and I used to appreciate their products but now that it's clear what Apple is REALLY about I happyly and glady have converted myself into an Apple hater.
My next systems will not run MacOS , they will not run Windos either, and they will not run anything from Google either. My next systems, as most of my previous ones did, will run one of the true Open Linux distributions : Debian or Ubuntu, and I hope many will start to understand that 'Freedom' can only come if Customers have Choice and I hope people will stop surrendering their 'Freedom' so darned easily to this and that company.
Collateral Damage
For some reason that I don't care about, Apple hates Adobe. Fine, I don't care.
But this change has enormous collateral damage on app developers using myriad other technologies. For example, mainstream traditional tools like lex and yacc are now banned. Writing the critical bits of your code in assembler is now banned. Using some crufty old Fortran code that computes map projections is now banned. All three of those catch my apps, which could disappear from the app store at any time. So I guess I need to find another income stream. I hear Android is selling OK.
But there are others who are even more seriously impacted, e.g. the people who are doing cross-platform app development using Unity, MonoTouch, and embedded scripting in things like lua. This is not just a few apps on the fringes, but many very-mainstream apps including some of the top-selling games.
FYI there is much discussion of this on the Apple developer forums, but the threads are being deleted or locked by Apple's moderators.
Crazy times....
Boycott Traitors
Adobe practically built Apple. PageMaker is responsible for more Apples ever getting bought back in the day than any other software. This is how Steve Jobs repays those who help him. He is now obsessed with maximizing the number of zeros on his bank statement. Many times over the greediest mammon worshiper. Amazing how so many can be fooled with a simple pair of jeans and a turtleneck.
True, except that PageMaker was an Aldus product at the time
And Aldus were bought by Adobe only long after they'd started losing in the marketplace to Quark.
Not that Jobs is in the right as a result.
er...
"Adobe practically built Apple"
um... yeah, ok... and remind me again who Adobe was selling all of their software to at the start, so that they could, you know, get stronger as a company and build a lasting base for the future...? what's that...? oh, yeah... people with Apple computers...
The days of Adobe "helping" anyone but Adobe are long over. And that's fine, but don't show your ignorance by pretending Adobe are some kind of altruistic bunch of hippies who just want to spread the love. Did you by CS4 when it came out? DId you happen to check just how much more it cost in the UK to download the exact same software as in the US?
That may clarify a few things for you...
Traitors?
Adobe Started it, by working with MS to push flash instead of Quicktime for video years ago.
So did Microsoft...
Because MS brought Word and Excel to the Mac, before Windows was a gleam in their eye.
Did they built Apple as well?
No one other than the buying public built the companies, not a single company.
What Aldus/Adobe did, together with Apple was instigating the Desktop Publishing revolution.
Jobs vs. Stockholders
The Adobe fiasco is not nearly as serious as Jobs refusal to pay a dividend with all that cash he is holding.
His response to the question of dividends was as though stockholders had asked him to document the source of his transplanted organ(s).
A strong Apple is a good Apple
Very refreshing to see Apple being aggressive for a change. Let's hope it continues.
prey for HTML5
Although I hate adobe at least the guy said how he felt, you would never hear this from a Microsoft/Apple employee (except Balmer) .
I really hope that HTML5 video is widely used if for no other reason than to piss of Adobe.
P.S : When you get round to adding the Balmer icon can you please use this
http://360.kombo.com/images/content/news/balmer_developers.jpg
No interpreted code
I can see why Apple does it. Ever wondered why Windows touchscreen devices are relatively awful? Windows and its apps were never designed for a small touchscreen interface. Apple want dev's to develop interfaces for the iphone itself, not just lazily put in an interpreter shim in for something designed for a different platform and interface. Plus there's all those other issues with intepreted code and battery life etc.
If you don't like it, you could just use a website with proper html and you can have any backend coding language you like!
I don't have an iphone and the restrictions are very onerous, but there is a certain logic to it and Apple are nothing if not obsessive.
Icon: It's no Commander Data but still it's an ...
@No interpreted code
There's nothing inherently wrong with interpreted code, it's useful for adding scripting/macro capabilities to many types of apps and games.
But this argument about "interpreted code" misses the bigger point, that apple is attacking cross compilers in general, even when they produce code which is run natively.
"Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine"
Surely the end-users don't care what language a program is written in. In fact it's likely that apple itself wouldn't even know the original language of an application is without excerting resources to find out.
This course of action by apple proves beyond any doubt that no rule is too ridiculous when it comes to killing multi-platform development. They want porting efforts to be as difficult as possible. Human anti-innovation at its finest, I say.
Anal ramblings
Actually I have never used a windows touchscreen device and I suspect you haven't ever either. This is probably just nonsense FUD that gets repeated by the clueless like the slander against my own platform.
How much crap does it take for an old zealot to reconsider M$ products?
Does it realy matter
Apple can live without Flash and I can live without Apple..
Apple can live without Apple?
I kind of doubt that, but I'll guess you meant Apple can live without Adobe.
Adobe's Creative Suite 5.0 will be released on Monday! Can you imagine the uproar if Adobe delayed the release for the Mac until Flash is put on the iPad and iPhone? I can imagine the uproar.
Can they live without PhotoShop, Illustrator, Indesign, DreamWeaver and Acrobat? Adobe just isn't Flash.
This feud goes a lot further back to the launch of OS X 10.0/Cheetah. Without native Adobe creative software on OS X until late in the 10.1/Puma, Adobe left Apple languishing without any major/killer productivity/creative software for over 1-1/2 years. Apple wanted OS X to launch with Adobe right behind them, and Adobe dragged their heals.
Not to mention that Adobe creative software performs better Windows NT kernel-based OSes than on OS X ( Also remember that Flash was a Macromedia program long before Adobe bought out the company).
So the feud started almost ten years-ago or better depending on how you look at it (PhotoShop 2.5/3.0 shipped natively for Windows in 32 bit, not the 16 bit for Apple).
Beer because I have to use both platforms and wish they would just down a couple and end the damned feud.
Oh, sorry...
...about misreading the second half of your sentence!
So ignore my first paragraph.
But let me also add that Apple changed over to Intel hardware & 10.5 without letting Adobe test the platform before release. Therefore Creative Suite 1 & 2 were not written for the platform and would crash constantly if loaded on it. This is just another part of the feud.
Adobe not telling the truth
Some people say this technology of Adobe builds native apps. This is completely wrong. It just packages the same murky Flash Runtime together with the app and makes it appear as a naive app.
Listen to Kevin Lynch (Adobe's Chief Tech Officer) in an interview on allthingsd.com in february:
"since we are not allowed to install the flash runtime in the operating system we are basically packaging it with the app"
No wonder Apple goes all postal on them. Despite telling clearly that they dont want the Adobe product ... Adobe is trying to sneak it in via a backdoor!!
The backdoor, eh?
So how _else_ would you do it? You cannot just magically make the "runtime" disappear. That would be a miracle worthy of the pope's attention.
Convert it
I don't know if what was written above is true but if it is then it's clearly against Apple terms by still being interpreted code.
An alternative (which may be blocked by the new SDK wording) would be to have a library written in one of Apple's supported languages with the core Flash functionality in it, then to convert the Flash files in to one of Apple's supported languages that makes calls out to this library.
This can then be compiled as a native application with no interpreting. Obviously this may not be straightforward but it does remove interpreted code.
"He says that Adobe has no intention of pulling its products from other Apple platforms"
...Because Premier has such a large user base after adobe throw a spat over apple buying final cut pro and canceled it for the mac platform, and threatened to cancel other 'essential' programs.
Adobe would never stoop to apple's level would they...?
2 sucky companies
bitch slapping each-other around because they're both sore losers in a world that can see through their BS.
Maybe 20 years ago.
Adobe were very powerful in the early days of Apple, but they went on to produce software for Windows and weakened Apple once already.
Apple have learned from that mistake, and are very very careful in not repeating it.
That is why today, Apple are a commodity builder and not just purely a producer of Macintosh, and Adobe are no part of it.
No cross platform development!
That's the point, isn't it? You can use Adobe's tool (and undoubtedly others) to compile an app for iPhone, then, with a press of a button, compile it for Flash, which means that it will run on Android, Windows Mobile, RIM etc.
If you can develop for iPhone and other platforms as easily as iPhone alone, why just make an iPhone app? And if apps are available on all mobile platforms, why buy an iPhone? The App Store is currently Apple's leading marketing strategy.
A bit haughty
Don't you love a clash of egos? It's always fun theater but I suspect Mr. Brimelow is fully aware that Adobe isn't the main focus. He must know the new conditions are there to sell Mac computers and create a homogeneous development ecosphere. It isn't like the iPhone SDK will be running on Windows, Linux, Solaris, etc.
This is just another step in the vendor lock-in line dance providing end to end platform purity. You can also be sure the SDK will be setting some sort of "Genuine Win^H^H^HMac" flag to make preliminary app store screening easier. All your app are belong to Apple.
Adobe
There are some software companies that I just cannot feel sorry for. Market share is won through the ability to wage business wars rather than produce superior software. The market won, quality evaporates. I'm not normally a big Steve Jobs fan but... I'm sick of Adobe Flash and Acrobat. I really like what Jobs is doing in this case.
Don't get mad, get even.
So when is Adobe going to team up with one of those many Chinese companies that are making iPhony clones the sell for $100, and create a joint venture to make a modern mobe that actually competes with Apple's iPhone?
It'd be fun.
Unofficial App Stores...
...do not place restrictions on how Apps are built - they are already the source for the best Apps - stuff like iBlacklist, My3G, MyWifi which give the consumer essential functionality Apple don't like for commerical reasons, nothing to do with stability or code quality. _Every_ iPhone user I know who's seen these Apps working has since done a jailbreak - which has been both easy and riskfree for some time now, despite Apple's FUD.
Doubtless there will be howls of angst from mactards, but whats the point of a smartphone that doesn't let you use half of its Apps over 3G or use its connection from other devices? Why shouldn't you have control over who is able to ring you on your own phone or be able to change its UI to your liking?
Adobe, Unity, MonoTouch etc don't need to push iPhoney, they just need to continue regardless of Apple's stance. Rock Your Phone is doing very nicely and will doubtless be joined by other competitors given Jobs' stance.
@Giles Jones
"Developers are obviously more interested in cutting corners, writing one game that runs on many platforms. This is hardly in the interests of the end user. It's about time someone made a stand against the increasing bloat and abstraction in software."
It's not about cutting corners, it's about reducing costs, and having to maintain 2 code bases that do fundamentally the same thing but in different syntaxes is just nuts. You don't quite double your costs, but you're not far off.
You might not like this, but the fact is that if Apple don't allow it then some app developers will look at the numbers and consider that converting what they've got to iPhone isn't worth it. The gold rush is over on iPhone apps. So, rather than getting an iPhone version of CoolApp, you just won't get CoolApp at all.
Iphone vs Android is starting to look a bit like Apple vs Microsoft in the 80s, which MS in part won because they embraced developers and Apple didn't.
No flash? No wonder.
The only, and I mean the ONLY browser exploit I have ever seen in the three years since I went Mac has been flash based. Admittedly the worst it was able to do was alter the browsers user profile and redirect to add sites. But still.....
I don't miss flash on my iPhone, and after this I think I'm going to remove flash on my Macbook Pro. Adobe is being pissy because Apple's boycott of Flash is making alternatives to their buggy bloat more and more common. HTML5 video is the writing on the wall for flash and they know it.
Talk about hegemonic lock in, what makes them think they can DEMAND other people use their standard? They must think they are Microsoft. Honestly, with Youtube no longer requiring flash, what do I need it for? To power more flash based ads?
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