back to article Lords: Analogue radio must die

Digital radio isn't great and the public doesn't want it, but you're going to get it anyway. So recommends the House of Lords Communications Committee today. 90 per cent of the UK listens to radio, and 94 per cent of listeners are happy with what they've got. The Lords accept most of the points made by critics of DAB and the …

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  1. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
    FAIL

    Absolutely ridiculous

    I expect most people have an FM car radio, another connected to their Hi-Fi, and perhaps a radio alarm clock. They've had them for years, are perfectly happy with them, see no reason to change, and have no need to except through being forced. Most have probably never touched the tuning knob in decades.

    This is simply change for the sake of change. Something few want and fewer need. I can't imagine how anyone can see creating a mountain of waste electrical equipment - which would otherwise work for years to come - as acceptable in any way.

    I'm wondering how much this will damage rather than benefit the radio industry, how many will simply forego radio and stick to CD / MP3 in their cars and on foot and the same plus streaming media at home.

    Epic fail all round.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Conspiracies

    They want the old analogue frequencies for their handheld "see through walls" machines that the the New World Order Gestapo will use to root out non-believers and the unchipped.

    Where's the tin foil hat icon?

  3. Tom_

    This would be ok if DAB was any good

    Sadly, it's not.

    My ten year old FM radio alarm clock gets better reception than my DAB set.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    so...

    My clock radio I've had for 10 years is going to stop being a clock radio and just start being a clock?

  5. Steven Jones

    Luddite

    @Hate2Register

    So who do you think is paying for this subsidy then - a magic fairy waving a wand? One way or another, the cost will end up with the consumer, tax payer or some other hidden charge.

    As far as I'm concerned, then it's a right royal pain with out much obvious benefit (and I already do have one DAB radio which stays on FM due to reception issues). Just take my car for a start. I've got a radio that integrates nicely with controls on the steering wheel column (as have many others). The best I can hope for at the moment (given there are very few DAB car radios around at the moment) is some widget that re-broadcasts the DAB onto FM frequencies. Some people have integrated radio/SatNav units - replacing those is going to be very expensive.

    Just to do a simple calculation, if there are 20 million vehicles out there at the moment and the costs of a proper integrated raplacement (not some nasty kludge) is, optimistically, £200 with fitting - then that's £4bn. That's without the estimated 50m+ domestic radios of other types to consider.

    The only way to make this work would be to mandate that all cars are fitted with DAB from the start, and that all new radios are DAB capable and then wait quite a few years until the number of "legacy" sets is low enough that iut isn';t a huge cost issue to swap them all out.

    No government is going to court this sort of unpopularity for something which is of precious little benefit to most. Already we have huge amounts of audience fragementation, and Internet radio provides plenty of narrowcast capability.

  6. BristolBachelor Gold badge
    WTF?

    LORDS = Lots Of Rubish Decisions Scheme

    "We've burnt all this money, and it would be embarrasing to admit we were wrong and stop now, so keep burning it"

    I can only imagine new TV adverts saying that all new radios must be BAD sorry DAB radios, or they won't work. They will show FM radios having lots of interference, and BAD radios having none (as clearly as that can be demonstrated on freeview, anyway!). They will invent some stupid puppet for a logo too.

    A few years down the line, they will give up with the BAD standard that they told everyone to buy, and change to BAD+ Everyone who believed the adverts and bought a BAD radio will now need to buy another one, but BAD+

    As others have said, the only winners are Retailers and big Chinese electronics manufacturers (oh and non-executive directors on boards of companies connected to them). The loosers are you and me, and the environment.

    I wouldn't believe it, but it sounds strangely familiar.

  7. Graham Bartlett

    @Hate2Register

    Nice idea, but...

    1) Licenses on DAB take a chunk of money. Giving them away for free will seriously limit the gov's ability to make money on this. You also have the problem of deciding who's worthy of a license and who isn't, otherwise everyone and their dog can apply for a free license.

    2) FM radios aren't necessarily crap. A good FM radio in most areas will beat the pants off a DAB radio quality-wise.

    3) This subsidy will be non-trivial in terms of cost. The cheapest, crappiest DAB radio you can get costs £25 from Argos. And for some reason all DAB radios are in the ancient mono "portable" stylee, instead of in the stereo "ghetto blaster" style. In comparison, I can get a cheap radio from Argos for a tenner, or off a market stall anywhere in Britain for a fiver.

    4) The reason for this is that the chips for DAB are a damn sight more expensive, because they need orders of magnitude more processing on them. Expect an extra tenner on the cost of every phone.

    5) It's also more expensive in terms of power consumption - the more processing you need to to, the more juice it needs. So your phone will run down faster with DAB than with FM.

    6) And the final cost is figuring out what to do with thousands of tons of obsolete radios. This is going to be a major headache for the government, bcos although WEEE requires manufacturers to take responsibility for end-of-life recycling, you can expect them to demand government subsidies if all these radios need to be scrapped before the end of their expected lifespan, and all in one go.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Joined up thinking...

    Remember the car scrappage scheme. So a new car produces less harmful emissions than an old one. Great, but how long does it take for that to offeset the environmental damage caused by building the new one, and perhaps more importantly scrapping the old one?

    Likewise we are all being encouraged to scrap our boilers in favour of more environmentally friendly ones. We're in a similar situation with other white goods too.

    Digital radio is even more fun from an environmental point of view. On top of the damage caused by building the new one and scrapping the old one you have the fact that new device uses more electricity than the old one. Brilliant. On the one hand we have a government who are telling us we need to replace all our energy consuming devices with more efficient ones and yet the same government wants us to replace our current radios with ones that are much less efficient.

    Either they are serious about environmental issues or they aren't. Which is it guys?

    They've missed another trick too. DAB does not include any DRM. I'll bet Mandy's kicking himself over the missed opportunity. Although perhaps not. It could all be a cunning plan on behalf of the record industry, who'd want pirate copies of music recorded at a low sampling rate and complete with bubbling mud?

  9. POPE Mad Mitch
    FAIL

    I like driving in my car

    I'm sure i will not be alone in saying that the only real chance i get to listen to the radio is when i am in the car driving to/from work. I got a brand new large family car less than two years ago, fairly high model, electronic just about everything, and a DAB radio wasnt even listed as an option.

    If you want to get the masses to listen to digital radio your going to have to convince the motor industry to fit a DAB radio into -every- car, not just top end, or as a several hundred quid upgrade, but in every car shipped right down to the cheapest billy basic models.

  10. Nigel 11
    Megaphone

    And the other 6%?

    Have they considered the six percent who won't be able to receive DAB? (By their own figures).

    It would be bad enough if these people were evenly spread across the country, but they won't be. They'll be concentrated in sparsely populated rural parts. In certain MPs constituencies, they'll be a majority. About time to start raising awareness of this issue amongst these MPs, so that they can't say that they didn't know?

    BTW, I've tried DAB in a car, and it simply doesn't work. By that I mean it cannot handle driving through patches of bad radio quality with sufficient grace to be listen-able. So as well as rural constituents, there will be a huge backlash if the FM service is ever turned off. Better to start by going back to the drawing board, to invent a more robust digital transmission format for transmitting to moving vehicles.

  11. Paul 25

    Subsidy

    It'll have to be a fairly sizeable subsidy. I have seven FM radios, including the car.

    Since the cheapest DAB radio is about £25 (and that's for a really crap one) I have felt no desire to splash out on replacing them all with DAB to get no noticeable improvement in quality (at £25 it's the speaker and amp that make the difference not the broadcast tech), and only one more channel that I might listen to (BBC7), but probably won't.

    Until they get the cost of the gear down, and significantly improve the power performance I won't be buying.

    My portable Sony cost £12, sounds fine, and runs on a pair of rechargeable AAs for about 6 months. The cheapest small DAB receiver I can find it £25, and uses 6 AAs. I'm not spending £25+ just to listen to the radio in the shower.

    I just don't get what problem DAB is trying to solve for most people.

    Given the battle the BBC has every time it suggests turning off Radio 4 Long wave, expect a bloody revolution if they try to turn of FM in the next 5 years.

  12. Inachu
    Alert

    Ewwww!!!!!

    I hate the idea of digital only radio.

    Even if they invented a analougue digital emulator that makes it feel like it is analog is

    still pure fail.

    The only reason I can see for goign digital is to track who is listening to you

    as to better send you whatever propaganda.

    This makes me want to throw all my electronics out the window!

    Nasty Nasty Nasty!

  13. Neil Kay
    Thumb Down

    Scrappage?

    "...Also the scrappage scheme can include a subsidy so that luddites (read Reg readers) can swap their perfectly adequate AM/FM/LW radios for a nice little DAB set that allows you to receive in mono that which was previously in damn good quality stereo - that's if you can even get the radio to produce more than some meaningless burble and gibberish, especially when its raining."

    FTFY.

  14. accountant
    FAIL

    Irrational decision making. Again.

    OK, so DAB hasn't worked as well as expected, the great DAB experiment on the apathetic British public has turned into a damp squib, the quality of the DAB outcome is miserable for many.

    So the rational thing to do is to do nothing until there is a better alternative to FM. In the meantime, everybody who has sunk money into the venture can write it off as sunk and cut their losses.

    But the Lords - like the traditional British parliamentary institution - takes a mistake and compounds it by coercive irrationality. Why? Because they have this irrational, emotional stupidity about wasting speculative spending on sunk costs. What about "speculation" do they not understand?

    "It doesn't work, so... let's make it mandatory!"

    I'm more than happy with the limited number of stations available on analogue FM. It means less space for garbage. Look at the overall result of digital television. Even the documentary channels are garbagised-down to the menality of fickle teenagers, yet these channels cost the punter a fortune (and they don't even provide free sea-sick pills to help the viewer cope with obtuse camera angles and erratic zoom-in-zoom-out-wow-cool-trendy-patronising-you-love-it-really-innit?). Worst, these channels are frequently bundled in with billions of channels of utter crap, made by chavs for chavs, because apparently that's what the customer wants.

    Digital television is the template for digital radio. Garbage sold by cartels at a premium. No thanks.

  15. Nathan 13

    Better idea

    Spend the money on something people do want... like a decent broadband service in this country for everyone.

    DAB is shit and with internet radio pointless really. FM radio still has proper uses, many mobiles have FM tuners, pocket tuners are great for a day out etc etc

    And FM radio is more environmentally friendly compared with battery eating DAB. DAB should have a fuel tax on it of 70p in the £1for batteries, like petrol does lol

  16. caffeine addict
    Thumb Down

    But we don't want DAB...

    When DAB first appeared I jumped on it like the geek I am. Now I'd happily ditch it completely if Planet Rock and BBC7 were on analog.

    The transmissions just aren't up to it. We can't listen to the DAB in the living room if the cooker or the microwave are on, and we can't listen to the one in the bedroom if next door is using her hoover.

    Oh, and the one in the garages next to useless as the battery drains so quickly I need to rig up an extension lead for it.

    I'd rather have the static than the bubbling mud...

  17. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge
    Grenade

    Government lead with Lordy advice? ....... you're 'avin a larf, mate.

    ""The Government must ensure that advice goes to retailers and the public that when purchasing radios, consumers should purchase sets that include a digital tuner.""

    If the Government had any real balls or clout in anything they do, rather than relying on pathetic ignorant apathy to stay in their position of delusional power, they would ensure that only radios with a digital tuner were available for sale. And such abuse of apathy is an intelligence weapon used to prosecute smash and grab raids on both friend and foe as is revealed right at the start of this short leaky document ...... http://file.wikileaks.org/file/cia-afghanistan.pdf

    And if you are spooked into not opening that pdf, this is the relevent "pronounced "out-of-the-box""quote from it, charged by the Director of Intelligence ...... "The fall of the Dutch Government over its troop commitment to Afghanistan demonstrates the fragility of European support for the NATO-led ISAF mission. Some NATO states, notably France and Germany, have counted on public apathy about Afghanistan to increase their contributions to the mission, but indifference might turn into active hostility if spring and summer fighting results in an upsurge in military or Afghan civilian casualties and if a Dutchstyle debate spills over into other states contributing troops. The Red Cell invited a CIA expert on strategic communication and analysts following public opinion at the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) to consider information approaches that might better link the Afghan mission to the priorities of French, German, and other Western European publics."

    And I thought for a moment there, Andrew, that you had gone all sexually funky and super liberated with that sub-title ...."Cash for trannies scheme, more ads" :-)

  18. Oliver Mayes

    Fantastic

    "To go back on this policy now would risk turning confusion into an utter shambles"

    Translation: "We were wrong, but changing our minds now would make us look like we don't know what we're talking about. So we're going to carry on regardless and you will fall into line."

    I've got a DAB alarm clock which constantly loses reception and it's time signal and as soon as it wears out (I give it another few months at most) I'll be going back to a good old FM radio. The stereo in my car is also FM and works fine, if I switch that one to DAB it'll be pretty much unusable with the crappy signal strength around here.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @yoinkster

    lucky they've changed the way they count radios as if there's a (no doubt useless reception) FM radio on your MP3 player then you'd have been counted as someone who'd bought a radio and thus lost your specialness

  20. James 127
    Go

    ...and why not!

    ...most of the people I know now don't own an analogue radio anyway (not even in there car) so why not.

    1. Peter Gathercole Silver badge

      Insults abound

      but are you seriously saying that you either only know people who do not have cars, or ones so rich they opt for every gadget! Every car has had a radio fitted as standard for several decades.

      I'm sure that even if you have the most expensive media player in the world in your car, that there is probably an analogue radio hidden in it somewhere. After all, a single chip radio adds almost nothing to the cost of a device, so why would they not throw one in!

      Ditto radio alarm clocks and portable media players. Do you not know anybody with a latest gen. iPod Nano or a recent Nokia phone.

      I suspect that when asked whether they have an analogue radio, most of your friends say "dunno, I've never looked".

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Boffin

      Confused?

      James, no, you're confusing a digital display on a radio with digital radio. Bless.

    3. Frumious Bandersnatch

      learn to spell

      Moran

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re : ...and why not!

      You must know a large percentage of the people in the UK with a DAB car radio - I'm impressed !

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Alternatively

        There is a possibility that you haven't considered. Our poster doesn't know many people. Pretty likely when you think about it.

  21. paulf
    Thumb Up

    Possible solution

    I can't help thinking that the best way to solve this is to mandate that all radios sold must be capable of DAB reception. It'll take longer to switch over as we'd have to wait for a substantial proportion of the existing FM radios to die which could be another 10+ years*, but no one would have to throw out perfectly good FM radios, and there would no longer be on sale FM only radios that would be rendered obsolete by any switch over.

    Of course if this had been mandated 3-5 years ago this would have been less painful as there would be fewer FM only sets out there, and more DAB capable sets out there which would have possibly attracted more listeners to the DAB only stations like Planet Rock (saved from closure once) and BBC 6music (closure pending).

    *My old Sony FM portable, which doubles as my alarm clock and thus has regular use, has just turned 17, and still going strong! Not bad for £50. So I can empathise with those who have steam coming out their ears about dumping their old sets.

    1. Chemist

      Re : Possible solution

      The best way to solve this 'problem' is to admit that it doesn't actually NEED a solution. It adds almost nothing compared to current analogue reception and annoys the hell out of most people who know about the proposed switch-off. It WILL annoy a hell of a lot more when the rest twig.

    2. Tom 35

      DAB is already out of date.

      In 10 years it will be about as useful as a 10 year old computer.

    3. SteveMe

      FM will never be obsolete - it is too good

      You are proud of your long-lived FM set. My oldest was bought in 1966, and still gives great HiFi. I have 6 other FM sets in the house, the most recent only 3 years old, an investment which would now be valued in the thousands. This whole idea has been dreamed up to stimulated a saturated market, needing other ways of selling what everybody already has and need s no replacement. The makers should have thought of built-in obsolescence.

    4. Trygve
      FAIL

      Oh what a brilliant idea...

      Mandate that every compact low-power all-analogue £2 FM unit must include a bulky high power consuming £5 DAB decoding chip. That's just brilliant, that is!

      Maybe we could apply the same logic and mandate that every vehicle sold should have an integrated hybrid engine - including bicycles?

  22. Piro Silver badge
    Thumb Down

    No

    I won't buy into DAB, simple as that.

    They've also been faffing about with DAB+, and haven't got it out of the door quick enough. Regular DAB encoding is not fit for purpose, DAB+ should be, but won't be backwards compatible.

    I'm not buying into an inferior standard when the stuff I have works fine.

  23. Rod MacLean
    Joke

    "Cash for trannies scheme"

    That sounds like it might suit certain members of the House of Lords a great deal.

    The Ladyboys of Bangkok won't lose out either!

  24. The BigYin
    FAIL

    FFS

    DAB quality is crap.

    DAB coverage is crap.

    DAB sets costs more.

    DAB takes more to manufacture.

    DAB sets draw more power.

    DAB means millions of (perfectly good) radios going to landfill.

    I thought we were all mean to be saving the planet or something?

    I wonder how many of our fearless leaders have shares in companies with DAB interests?

  25. The Unexpected Bill
    Flame

    Analog Radio across the puddle

    I'm surprised that nobody from the other side of the "pond" has responded to this, primarily because I see this turning into a "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" sort of thing. If analog radio broadcasts disappear from the UK, I'm sure some twinkie(tm) in the US government will say "why don't we do that here". Of course, over here it's HD Radio, but it's the same basic (bad) idea. (How's that for stating the obvious?)

    And then everything is going to go to hell in a handbasket. (Digital over the air TV has already done this. I don't care about the advantages and subchannels. You can at least watch or listen to a bad quality signal. The same cannot be said of digital OTA TV. So I don't watch TV any more. Not that it was a big loss.)

    Anyway...if such a change were to be mandated here in the US, I know that it would put a serious crimp in my style, as well as the style of others who collect, restore and enjoy antique radios. I really enjoy listening to the vintage sets I have, some of which could fairly be said to have better tuners than a lot of the radios sold today. Call me silly but it would not be the same to listen through a digital to analog converter, if such devices are even offered for sale.

    That's my other point...the HD Radio tuners that I've played with so far are really total crap. They don't have good analog tuning performance, most can't be forced to play analog broadcasts only (to stop an endless switching game between HD and analog when the signal is "on the fence") unless you hack the circuitry and the prices are too high for what you get. Compared to a good analog radio tuner, the audio is of bad quality, perhaps even slightly overdriven. What's more, I can't get HD Radio signals like I can get analog AM and FM signals. Analog FM over a rooftop antenna will bring me stations from 75 miles away (with acceptable listening quality). I'm lucky to get HD Radio from thirty miles away. A good old long wire AM antenna has stations coming in well from hundreds of miles away. Of course, HD Radio won't just fade out, or be able to be switched to monophonic reception...it will just stop working.

    I'd hope that DAB was better if I ever had occasion to be in a place where it was in use, but it doesn't sound like it from reading these comments.

    So I hope it doesn't come to the thought of a forced transition, because then I'm going to have to become very busy writing elected officials about what a Bad Idea this would be.

  26. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's not about technology..

    ...it's about listening to what you're allowed to listen to.

    When I was a lad and dinosaurs ruled the earth (groan by all means but bear with me) we had a huge valve-operated medium/short wave radio. And no - despite what we see today in movies and TV dramas it didn't sound like an iplayer under water or we wouldn't have bought it - with a 12" speaker, it sounded fine, albeit mono. With it, we listened to radio programmes throughout Europe and further. On a good day we got news bulletins from across the globe. Music was available almost 24/7 from somewhere or other - language hardly mattered.

    Then came FM - and we could listen only to signals from a few miles away. But fortunately, most receivers had AM too for many years.

    Now we have DAB - if and when it works, which in my experience isn't well and isn't often. I suspect the govt's interest now lies in the promise that it is such short range that we can only listen to what someone has decided we can listen to.

    Which is not only suspect but fairly stupid, given that satellite TV is very quickly filling the gap. IMHO, if DAB is the only source left for ordinary radio reception, then most people won't bother with a radio at all.

  27. Anonymous Coward
    Joke

    Cash for trannies?

    Cragslist is good for that... "cash-for-trannies" scheme... huh huh heh huh heh :-)

    Coming from the House of Lords, that doesn't surprise me.

  28. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    @Possible solution

    >mandate that all radios sold must be capable of DAB reception

    Ban FM tuners? So banning all iPods, most mobile phones etc?

    Why not just mandate that all DAB radios have 3G then we can get rid of DAB and re-use that spectrum? cheaper, quicker and more practical.

  29. No 3

    Radio (be it analog or digital) is dead

    Was in the UK a few years ago, drove from London to Edinburgh and back.

    I tried listening to the radio, I couldn't stand it.

    Fortunately I had my Sirius Sat radio with me with tons of content I recorded off the bird here in North America and listened to that for the whole journey.

    Radio as a medium is dead, it offers NOTHING above anything else, and has alot of stuff people don't want. Every once in a while I try listening to terrestrial radio here, I don't make it very far.

    It may sound ridiculous to some, but I say don't mock until you try it: pay radio is the future.

    DAB? It's just another stab by a dying industry to stay alive.

    1. Steve X
      FAIL

      You must be kidding!

      Sirius? Better than UK radio?

      Sirius is like listening to someone else's iPod with a few dozen 10 song looped playlists and adverts. I've tried it a few times in US rental cars, with the limited choice and crap reception quality (it disappears even when you d\rive under a TREE, never mind a highway overpass FFS) I quickly turned back to boring old FM.

      Digital media these days seems to mean quantity over quality so that they can sell even more advertising space. That bubble has to burst soon.

  30. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @Kevin 3

    "and with DAB+ it will go altogether - an additional Reed-Solomon encode will correct these low-rate errors completely."

    Sorry Kev old chap, but DAB+ is irrelevant. It will not go away with DAB+ because unfortunately for you and your rose tinted digital bins the powers that be have already clearly stated that DAB+ will not be implemented in the UK. The reason being that they don't want to piss off all the people who have bothered to buy DAB receivers and there simply isn't the bandwidth to run DAB+ in parallel with DAB.

    Actually there probably is enough bandwidth except that they have already reserved a big chunk of the existing FM range for "community stations" whatever they are and are planning to sell of most of the other bandwidth that will be freed up. So for "their isn't enough bandwidth" you can read "we're not going to provide enough bandwidth"

    And as for the power consumption the fact that DAB can be transmitted at a lower power output is irrelevant. It's irrelevant because the transmitters may use a fair chunk less power, but the receivers use many times the power of FM receivers. Anyway the bloody appalling DAB signal in many areas makes it clear that it is being transmitted at far too low a power output for most of the country. If DAB requires such a low transmission power how come I can get clear FM signals from FM stations who's nearest transmitter is bloody miles away, but I can't get DAB stations from transmitters that are much nearer?

    I live near a huge transmitter (two miles) and so the signal strength is good and sound quality is acceptable. Some channels are even as good as FM, some are not but that's not the fault of DAB per se but the fault of the channel using a low bit rate. However the choice of channels is awful. We get the national BBC stations and some crap commercial stations. Loads of other stations including the local BBC stuff are missing. Oddly on FM I can get perfectly clear BBC local signals from our local station and three of the neighbouring counties. On DAB I can't even get our local station. The fact that our local station isn't transmitted from our local transmitter is not the fault of DAB as a technology, it's the fault of idiots in suits. The fact that I can't get it from another transmitter almost certainly is the fault of DAB.

  31. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    DAB+

    These guys sound like a real pack of assholes to keep pushing DAB when people don't want it.

    I wouldn't either from the description of it... inadequate error correction so it breaks up easily, low bit rates (if MP2 needs 160kbps for FM quality, running it at 128kbps or below is just plain stuipd), plus of course tossing your radios.

    The worst of it, it's NOT that much spectrum! 900mhz GSM originally had 25mhz of upstream spectrum and 25mhz down; an additional 10 up, 10 down was added later. This is 70mhz total. 1800mhz is just a bit over 74mhz down and 74mhz up, just a bit over 149mhz total. The FM band is 20.5mhz. The funny part of it is, the DAB band takes up just a bit over 20mhz too.

    My recommendation: If they are going to insist on forcing digital radio down people's throats,

    then have all new receivers support DAB+. And get some stations out in DAB+. The error correction is far superior (stations that have "burbling mud" now will be fully corrected and sound perfect...) and the AAC+ audio encoding, they say a 64kbps stream sounds as good as 192kbps MP2.

  32. heyrick Silver badge

    The Lordships say too much has been invested by the public in DAB

    I *like* Betamax. Okay, it isn't as good as digital methods, but until HiFi audio came along on VHS decks, Beta was my format of choice. Even now, a crappy ANCIENT beta player can outdo a modern multi-head highly-integrated whoo-hoo VHS deck.

    And judging by how many Betas I used to see, there was a fairly good market until VHS eventually won and Beta faded away.

    Likewise should be the result of DAB. I have in my room a little radio with a speaker on it. Takes three AA cells, runs for _MONTHS_ and picks up plenty of stations.

    Show me a DAB receiver of any type ever invented that can do that. In fact, without a power brick or a bloody huge battery, I'd be inclined to think you'd be lucky to get a mere fraction of that lifespan between swaps/charges. And out of interest, how well does DAB do when driving, actually on the move?

    DAB is a big lemon. There are plenty of digital methods around, for those so inclined, but then there's the simple approach. Good ol' fashioned analogue radio. You can't "sex up" radio. You can't add red button junk to radio. You can just about do RDS for song titles and such, but a sixty year old valve radio will happily play the station ignoring the digital era. And this is how it should be.

    Leave radio the hell alone.

  33. heyrick Silver badge
    Grenade

    What we need...

    ...is an enterprising hacker-type to see if there is a way to take down huge chunks of the FM radio transmissions in the UK. A proof-of-concept "this is what it will mean" when people actually realise what the transition to DAB will be.

    .

    I know a dozen people with DAB receivers... back in their boxes, in the loft or the back of the cupboard by the kitchen.

    I'm very pleased for those who have DAB, and the bloke that got the old lady up to speed with her DAB. But the sad reality is likely to be quite different. Like Freeview, some people will be lucky enough to have good clear reception (although FM quality it isn't). Some people will get reception provided the weather is good and no other electrical device in 50 metres is operating. And some will just get nothing. Sad reality because I think the first group is a much smaller number than the last group.

    With FM you can put up with the odd bit of interference. Hissing in the sound. Maybe, like if you use an underground tunnel in a railway station, it'll get quite hissy, but still enough to hear your programming. DAB, being digital, suffers from the same problems that blight Freeview (and badly installed satellite). That is, the ability of the receiver to recover from errors means that it can accept a variety of qualities of input signal. But stray a tiny bit beyond what the error correction can cope with and you'll get jibberish. A tiny but further, nothing. It'll just give up because trying to play a totally messed up signal would be painful. There's no fade-out, just good to gone with a tiny hiccup of crap. But, hey, you probably know the same issues for mobile phones, where it goes "twangy" before dropping the line on you.

    The march of technology is often a good thing. I'm writing this on a miniature computer that is connected to absolutely no wires of any kind while waiting for my rice to cook. I have an MP3 player providing music (the computer could do it, I suppose, but it means swapping SD cards). The one in the computer, a thing smaller than an old 50P coin, contains around 9 hours of stuff recorded off the telly. Digitally. British telly, many hundreds of miles away from Britain. Technology rocks, so long as it isn't a bomb with AI. That wouldn't rock.

    However, and this is very important, all of the above examples I just listen provide enhancements. A small portable, yet powerful, computer. A little thing with a hundred or more songs on it. Think of nine hours of video tapes compared to an SD card. Think of a video deck compared to a decent digital recorder. I can't get French TV, too far from any sort of signal, but I can get - in lovely quality - all the BBC regions, plus loads of other channels. I grew up with the BBC micro and the leap in tech from then and now is nothing short of amazing.

    But to take good, efficient, widely available radio and replace it with something that offers worse quality when it is working, much more restrictive zones of operation, much more sensitivity to sources of interference (what FM was designed to get around, as AM is quite susceptible), not to mention laughing in the face of efficiency (the chip may be so efficient that it's an embedded system designer's wet dream, but it's still not a patch on any cheap FM radio)... Really, I think Hermann Hauser would call this evolution a "retrograde step".

  34. Frumious Bandersnatch

    Lords: Anal ...

    What?

  35. Steve Brooks

    DAB DEAD

    As usual with technology it will develop in the direction that people want to go. Time and again governments have tried pushing develpopment, only to find it spear off into a completely unexpected direction, the more money they throw at trying to guide technology, the more money they end up throwing away. Its likely that by the time DAB has exanded to provide coverage to 94% of the population streaming radio from the internet will be encroaching on that traditional market and DAB will fail before it even starts. best let the market, led by the people, decide what they want. I mean even where the big corporations try to force people to follow thier rules they are just ignored (RIAA et al and file sharing) what makes the governments of any country think they will fare any better.

    1. Glyn 2

      direction?

      I dunno, digital TV was pushed onto us by the government and there aren't many people who wanted 120 channels of garbage that are physically barely watchable (as well as the impact on your soul of watching Viva for 2 minutes)

      Since I've gone digital I've had to give up watching telly as the sound cutting out and the picture breaking up like a spectrum loading screen all the time, means it just isn't worth the effort to figure out what's going on, who said what and what program I'm watching anyway.

      I'd have settled for 1 channel of quality programs over 120 channels of top gear repeats, RnB videos and dodgy adverts

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Digital TV?

        Dgitial TV was indeed pushed onto us and we were lied to in the process. We were promised huge numbers of channels. Did they ever arrive? Nope. We have the +1 channels which are a waste of bandwidth, the shopping and quiz channels that are a waste of bandwidth, the channels that are counted as two when there is only really one (think CBBC and BBC3) and the red button channels which don't count as channels.

        I can't remember the numbers, but I think they were talking about something like fifty channels of real content. If you take away the shopping and quiz channels, the red button channels and the double counting how many real channels are there left?

        The promise of extra channels on digital radio is meaningless. Research has shown that the majority of radio listeners stick to the same channel most of the time. Would having twice as many channels on DAB change this?

        So DAB has more channels and better sound quality does it? That would be no and no. So why do they expect people to pay a premium for it? If they want people to spend lots of money "upgrading" to DAB (or indeed any other form of digital radio) they need to give some sort of incentive. So far they haven't thought of one other than "we'll switch analogue off".

  36. kevin biswas

    Wont someone think of the old people.....

    Who are the most avid radio listeners and the least likely to be able to manage the new technology effectively. I too love radios for their simplicity. One dial for tuning, one for volume and maybe an am/fm switch. Great UI.

  37. Beanzy
    Thumb Down

    A greedy weak format gets support from the lords..... surprise surspise!

    DAB is too compromised in terms of it's design of spectrum use and compression used in transmission. The signals are way too easily attenuated due to their low power and poor ability to permeate obstructions. So rather than force us all to adopt an inefficient system designed to cram as much data as possible into tiny band slots, why not get less greedy and re-design it; with wider channel allocations, better signal transmission strength and compression which doesn't introduce so many artefacts it becomes a worse listening experience then analogue FM?

    Simple greed having too much influence in the early stages of format design.

  38. JohnG

    World, not just UK

    It may have escaped the Lords' attention but FM receivers are used worldwide and are built into various devices designed and manufactured for a global market. I have FM receivers in two MP3 players, my mobile phone, two Internet radios, my car. Additionally, my navigation system has an FM receiver which retrieves TMC data from various radio stations here in Germany and also in France, Belgium, etc.

    Conversely, I don't know anyone with a DAB receiver or plans to buy one.

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