Japanese police are planning to "put pressure" on websites which offer pervs top tips on how to grope women on trains without getting cuffed, and the best packed commuter lines on which to fondle victims. Earlier this year, a 23-year-old man who was arrested in Tokyo for molesting a high-school student told police he'd "chosen …
Women only carriages? But what about the Lesbian Menace? And what of the poor Male passengers, forced into close proximity with women-starved gropers? How is this a solution at all?
No, the only solution is that each passenger, regardless of sex, should be packaged in a self-contained "transit tube" at the station of embarkation. Claustrophobic passengers would be gassed into insensibility at this point. The tubes would be loaded onto flatcars that would replace the old carriages, with everyone properly isolated from their fellow perverts. Tubes would be offloaded and the passengers decanted by an automated system at the destination station.
All this loading and unloading would be done using robot mechanics and large articulated manipulator arms developed from the space station tech. Destinations would be encoded to be read from an RFID.
Only in this glorious transit utopia can everyone travel free from the worry that their bum is going to be tweaked or their pockets picked.
Cue: Rule Britannia.
RE: Sarah Bee RE: I'm all for women only carriages...
That sounds like quite a horrible thing to happen, though I'm glad it hasn't traumatised you. What a pathetic little man to think that assaulting a woman would impress his mates (and what pathetic mates to be impressed by it!). Those are the sorts of men who should spend an evening courtesy of Her Majesty in a cell with several men larger than themselves and see if they find it so funny the next morning when they're doing a very passable impression of John Wayne.
On the women only carriage thing I do feel there is some need for that here, as well as carriages for those who feel vulnerable in general - as a gay man, and one who is visibly gay (not waving rainbow flags or anything, you can just tell - somehow), public transport late at night can sometimes be far from a pleasurable experience and I've been quite frightened at times - if it was one on one I know I could handle it but there's no way I could take a group on. Unfortunately it's just a sad indictment on society that some idiots really do get their jollies by scaring and upsetting others.
I have the solution
Perhaps they could be like mouse traps, or perhaps finger cuffs. Then when you call the police, they have to find the perp with throbbing or fingercuffed fingers.
It's pretty narrow minded to focus on this as a Japanese problem as a number are doing, it's always been quite a well talked about element of Japanese society and most people either directly know of stories or have read about things indirectly (I've come across both), however I'm not sure it's any less so here in the UK. As Sarah herself has experienced.
At an event here a month back here in the UK two girls I know were groped quite blatantly and they didn't tell anyone until sometime after the event. I also remember a woman commenting on it on a topic some time ago here on The Register.
And I think it has allot to do with a general lack of shame and a consistent social reinforcement of misbehaviour from across the board, mates egging each other on, a lack of willingness to report, a lack of action when reported. People aren't embarrassed getting an earful from the filth any more as nobody has any real respect for them and they're viewed little better then tax collectors with more power. Infact often an earful from the old bill makes you look all the better in your mates eyes (if you hang out in those kinds of groups.)
I've said it before but something got broken sometime back when police stopped looking like they upheld the law and become perverse agenda driven puppets of different political factions, and people stopped being civil. Lol and as the Lenny Henry sketch showed when he was young if he did something wrong the lady down the street would beat him then take him to his mother who would beat him for causing the other lady trouble. I remember getting a proper battering for telling my mum to f--- off when I was a kid. Course that left me a deranged and scarred monster (if we're to believe the hype.)
Course its' not all bad, lots of grand people and good times, but I think our way of "those filthy Japanese men" is shirking an issue that is all too common here too. Plus we get to do a bit of racist sneering. Oh onn a side note man Japan is racist lol, so racist. Although technically they can't have Japanese only bars any more, but when you don't get served for 10 minutes you get the idea lol. The only place you can chill out is with other social outcasts wota/otaku/drunk business men.
And I doubt many people would get involved if a woman was getting hassle here in the UK most people want to keep their heads down and keep out of trouble, sad but true.
Anyway time to get back to playing cross channel, I've got a bit of a headache T_T.
@Sarah - Groping = Assault
Sorry, but in my estimation (and I wasn't there), groping, grabbing, patting, etc., are all a form of sexual assault and intimidation and are not acceptable. The fact that this was a "kid" is no less of a problem in that he didn't have the cajones to NOT do this. I know I'm just a neanderthal, but were it my other half or one of my daughters my first inclination would be flattening the creep and then his buddies. Sorry.
Japan gets to grips with train-grope websites
Sarah bee - Anonymous Coward here,
I disagree on some of these points. I think you did exactly the right thing in your case. It's important to remember that the law almost always reacts in a manner disproportionate to the crime these days. Had you reported it, the not-so-gent in your example would likely have spent, at the very least, a night in jail and been slapped with a nasty fine purely for being an ass. Said arse caused you a few minutes of intense discomfort and that is exactly what he deserved in return. I wish more women would take it upon themselves to respond appropriately to issues such as this. If some guy gropes you and it makes you uncomfortable, a knee to the groin or an elbow to the face is worth 10 to 30 minutes of intense discomfort. If you are in a public place, a loud outcry can quite effectively resolve the issue.
The point I want to make is that you should only get the law involved if the miscreant in question fails to back down. If he doesn't have the sense to vanish after the first warning then he deserves a bit of an extended reflection behind iron constraints with a 7 foot tall dude named Bubbah. Woman need to take the responsibility to stand up for themselves. The law is not their personal beet-stick.
- Anonymous Coward steps off his box and skulks away.
the solution is this...
.... rather than men-only/women-only carriages, how about grope-friendly/grope-prohibited carriages... that way the handsie lesbians and straight-men alike (apparently only these exist according to the commentards) get to know where and when they can do such things.... sigh
Incidentally, if any freak in a carriage tried to so much as breathe heavily down my wifes neck I would be making sure he/she gets all the physical contact he/she desires and more... just not the way he/she imagined. My wife once had a shock once when she caught a perv man staring at her under the cubicle of a toilet (women-only btw) - it freaked her out for weeks and she couldn't use public toilets without a bit of a panic attack for years after. I really do feel sorry for any girls/women/boys who get abused on an otherwise-normal commute - to some it will really affect them for a long time... at least my wife could handle herself in a fight once she got over the initial shock (kick-boxer! ;) )
Best response ever
may be an urban myth, but funny all the same. Apparently the woman grabbed the offending hand, held it up and announced very loudly, "Excuse me. Has anyone lost one of these ? I found it on my boobs"
RE:Re: I'm all for women only carriages...
First off. Nothing can justify groping anyone at any point for any reason. That said it does seem like you were mad at the guy for a few minutes but mad at your self for many years. Maybe just maybe its not the groping that was the problem?
What happens in the subway
Re: @Sarah - Groping = Assault
What do you mean 'sorry'? I didn't say it wasn't assault. I wasn't aware I was excusing it - I was saying I felt bad, and still feel bad, for not reporting it because of erroneous thoughts that it wasn't worth reporting.
Re: RE:Re: I'm all for women only carriages...
'Maybe just maybe', eh? What exactly are you implying here? Could you explain it to me like I'm, say, a silly girl?
Honestly, what a bunch you are.
@the solution is this...
You may jest but I do believe they trialed that at one point on some lines (getting AV stars to staff it an all) no idea how it went though lol.
As an aside train monglers arn't stupid - they wouldn't harrass someone who is with anyone else and they wouldn't harrass someone who looks the sort to make a fuss. I do so love the "if it was my wife/kid/friend" lines, if it happens you wont be there and you probably wont happen until sometime afterwards.
@Japan gets to grips with train-grope websites
The guy seemed like he couldn't have given a damn what most people think as he did it twice, a swift kick to the groin seems like a good idea but seen as you never know what you're dealing with could be a dangerous action and lead to getting punched/stabbed/dragged down an ally way and dealt with/stalked/etc.
He did deserve the police giving him a hard time, sadly police have lost their reputation to be upholders of justice and are more a rabble thugs. "What can you do?" Is a very good question, a night in the cells wont fix a guys attitude, a prison sentance likely wont, trying to show him up in front of the public likely wont, and although a knee to the groin may work it can lead to a nasty escalation.
Whilst worrying about terrorists, immigrants, peadophiles, cancer, house prices, and global warming we seem to have forgotten a critical component of society that as a whole people should look out for each other and be civil, sadly even the law can be against you if you help someone out and it escalates.
The Japanese are so wierd. And I don't mean that in a xenophobic, racist kind of way. I mean, they have some very strange customs and hang ups over there.
Re: Re: Ok, let's get this straight.
You know what causes that "one small problem"? The low signal-noise ratio on comment threads is self-sustaining.
When you can't find sensible comments, you start to get the feeling that the comment page only exists to list inane mindless witterings.
Furthermore, the speed at which these pages fill puts an urgency on the writer, and even if you intend to write something sensible, you end up in such a rush that you end up sounding like a moron.
Re: Re: Ok, let's get this straight.
Well, there's a very simple solution to that.
Seriously, if I moderated out a load more stuff than I do, I'd spend half my day moderating out the irate/crestfallen/paranoid "why have you censored my comment" comments.
Point of order - of course it's a sexist concept, by definition - although not "outrageously" sexist, so I guess i can't disagree with your comment.
It's sexist because it discriminates against one gender - one gender is excluded from those carriages reserved for the other gender, without (as far as I understand it) having single-sex carriages of their own. Imagine the uproar if toilets came only in "Ladies" and "Unisex" varieties...
Don't get me wrong - women (or men for that matter) should not have to feel at risk of such undesired attentions, and single-sex carriages are a good start to this. But the system as it stands seems to mean that one gender has access to more carriages of a train than another - meaning that the latter may have to contend with even more crowded conditions (on an already crowded system).
Solution - Male-only, Female-only and Mixed-occupancy carriages on all trains. That way, those (of either gender) who feel threatened by the presence of the other in such crowded quarters, have the option to avoid it. (This doesn't solve the problem of same-gender assault - which is where the cameras etc. come in I guess!)
@the moderatrix and all my fellow commenttards
First off: go Sarah! Kick some ass, and take some names. The rest of you sorry lot: play nice. Remember, what actually gets posted here is the filtered bit. There is without question the odd comment that Sarah gets that is absolutely unpalatable, probably qualifying under "disgrace to all mankind." If your job was reading comments all day long, how many of those would you have to get in a week to be not only upset, but possibly on the verge of losing all hope for (internet connected) mankind. Any commenttards that can’t bear that in mind deserve, (in my not so humble opinion,) a right good kicking.
And now: my completely unsolicited $0.02 about the topic at hand. I can't speak for any of my fellow commenttards, but I was raised to believe that all people, regardless of gender, ethnic origin, age, weight, attractiveness etc. were to be treated the same. Sadly, the vast majority of the world has huge problems with this concept, and so it is in practice never truly implemented. There is always someone willing to discriminate against someone else. Each and every one of us has prejudices of some variety. Some of those prejudices are politically correct in the confines of the society in which we live, and some are not.
From the perspective of my own upbringing, the fact that this groping occurs with such frequency on Japanese commuter trains is appalling. The fact the response is segregation along gender lines is equally so. I appreciate that this segregation is an attempt to remedy a nearly unpolicable social issue that is unacceptable on almost every level, but the segregation will only serve to reinforce the differences between the genders. Men who can’t get a spot in the cars they are privileged enough to be permitted to use will grow to resent the women. (Who will be allowed to use all cars, but have special ones reserved solely for their use.) Women will by the sheer nature of this be subtly encouraged to thing of all men as potential gropers/potential sexual assaulters.
I am assuming that all of us here read the same articles on El Reg…where we talk endlessly about the threats posed by government databases, corporate and political corruption, and how there must be limits imposed, checks and balanced placed to ensure that the individual is not lost in the noise. That in mind, remember women are not remotely immune to cravings for power, control and a desire to use intimidation to achieve their aims. I understand Sarah’s view that such events are currently infrequent, however there does exist serious potential here for abuse by women who seek power over others.
I don’t suggest that I have a better solution, however I believe that what is being proposed here will only exacerbate gender issues in this society, not help solve them. I don’t know enough about Japanese culture to be considered any authority, and my opinions of course bear the caveat that this is based solely on my personal life experiences and limited research into the subject. Whether or not the fear of unwarranted litigation is proportionate to the threat or not, I honestly believe the subject is as important a social issue as incidents like these asinine gropings. No gender (or other social grouping) should have cause to fear the other, and if we are to advance as a society, we must address all such issues. (Not just the ones that are currently "politically correct" to try to fix.)
All I can add is - if you think our Moderatrix is tough to get by, go post on the BBC Have Your Say. At least here I've got a better than average chance of seeing my post appear!
I wish you luck!
Women only carriages are scary things...
Whilst this is certainly a disgraceful aspect of the Japanese society it is quite unique insomuch as it is constrained to the Tokyo metro. A young lady in Tokyo can walk just about any street late at night and feel safe in the knowledge she won't be molested or raped, (except for some places in the pong or Shinjuku), and crime is extremely low.
When I was in Tokyo a few weeks back there was a story about a guy who groped the wrong lass on a train as she was a popular pop singer in Japan and after being groped for 10 stops (yes you read that correctly) she dragged him to the coppers for arresting. His story was "I started touching her butt and couldn't stop!", laughable if it wasn't so sad...