Concerted Linux-netbook effort needed to beat Microsoft

title

I am really, _really_ trying to like Linux. I've been running Vista on my gaming PC for ages (now replaced with a weak-ish laptop), and keeping it up to date as well as installing a decent (and free) av/firewall package is actually very simple. That is of course, very simple compared to getting Linux to recognise your damn wlan card, then persuading it that it really shouldn't be "eth1". Then having Fedora insist on downloading "998 updates", each of which happen to have missing dependencies that it can't resolve. Then having Ubuntu crap itself after installing a new graphics driver, simple, reconfigure your X.org or something - actually, it isn't simple. Then installing Linux Mint, which so far is ok, although it has a way of installing software in Synaptic and then refusing to load it. I'm sure there's an error log secreted away somewhere that will tell me why it won't work, but does it have to be that way?

And I actually consider myself a reasonably clued up PC owner, having built many from scratch and getting all the software just how i want it etc. Never thought I'd say this but I actually miss BSODs, I appreciate the courtesy Windows has to tell me why it's gone titsup without expecting me to dig around log files.

I'm still waiting for "my" netbook.

I want one with an ARM processor because battery life will be a very important thing for me about this thing. I don't care about x86 compatibility because A) free software is widely ported B) it's a netbook, I don't need legacy apps.

If you can buy a cheap ARM netbook with a long long battery life, that could be a game changer. It will put ARM-Linux up against ARM-WinCE. WinCE runs next to nothing compared to ARM-Linux which relatively has a huge amount of software.

@Simon

"I could be wrong but....

Calling people stupid just because they want XP instead of Linux on a computer is not the best way of winning converts."

Who's trying to win converts on this board?

People ARE stupid and lazy, and it seems the new trend for linux haters to jump on is "it doesn't work *exactly* like windows and therefore nobody will use it because they are stupid and lazy. Therefore linux sucks". What actually sucks is that people are stupid and lazy.

@aL

"didnt asus do this already? everyone just installed xp on 'em and where on their merry way.."

Quirte the opposite actually, the Linux eee901s had better specs but Asus seemed determined not to meet demand, so lots of people bought the XP version and put linux on it. Check out the eeeuser forums.

Personally I reflashed my linux one anyway because Xandros was ****

That's the main problem with linux netbooks if you ask me, the fact that people like Asus ship with their linux distro broken.

Xandros on the 901 would bleat about software updates and then fail or flat-out refuse to installl them. It had a weird GUI that I could not for the life of me figure out how to add a new shortcut to, and for the 901 Asus removed the "advanced" (KDE) mode.

Ubuntu and dell might actually produce something good together...

I really hate to say this.

I really hate to say this but "Windows Just Works" these days. Yes, it really does. Every USB stick, every Wi-Fi adapter, every graphics card, every sound card, every camera, every phone, every webcam. You stick it in (or load Windows onto an existing system), feed it the drivers (these are NOT hard to find, so don't even try to bring this up), maybe restart the system a couple of times and you're good to go.

This has never been my experience with any flavour of Linux. Don't get me wrong - I've been INCREDIBLY impressed with what does work 'out-of-the-box' - kudos to the programmers on distros like Ubuntu ! Unfortunately, unless you're trying to get a fairly 'normal' desktop or laptop configured, you're pretty much guaranteed that some piece of hardware is going to jump up and bite you on the face. The situation that boggles my mind the most is when a manufacturer delivers a pre-configured distro which is still buggy, WITH THEIR SUPPLIED HARDWARE ! I've heard tales of EeePCs choking on the Asus-defined hardware - WTF's that about ?

I would have loved to use a netbook as a portable editor so I could tweak my MIDI synths on stage. Even using Ubuntu (arguably the most hardware-friendly distro) and a USB MIDISport adapter (arguably the most widely supported device out there) and spending several nights reading through forums, I could only get as far as loading the firmware into the MIDISport on startup. Getting any application to actually talk to hardware over MIDI was just never going to happen - even editors written specifically for Linux.

I'm afraid the Microsoft tax works out at a lower TCO than days of frustration followed by a still unsatisfactory experience.

Linus may cost more to support

I have an Asus Eee.

I'm following the sometimes rocky road of switching to an alternative Linux because Asus manage to look incompetent.

1: Very old versions of software still supplied (Open Office 2.0).

2: Bizarre holes in functionality (UK keyboard, but no UK dictionary for Open Office, missing video codecs so that many available videos don't play).

3: Upgrades that appear to break other software (Firefox 3.0 upgrade which breaks the VLC media player, and cannot be removed)..

4: Poor or non-existent documentation of differences between Eee hardware versions and the Linux included.

The least isn't helped by the attitudes of some providing the usual Linux-style support that is available.

I don't think that Linux, generally, is any better in supporting the naive, but Windows seems better supplied with support structures for those people.

I think netbook distributions need more informative websites, which let users easily find the basic config tweaks for their specific machine. Windows has a huge advantage here. It's not the GUI which matters.

It's taken me a couple of weeks of fiddling to get over the initial hump, and I still see problems. But I am glad I switched from the Asus/Xandros version of Linux. It was good when I needed it, but it seels like a dead end.

"Arm" still waiting for "my" netbook.

Can I second the ARM powered Linux netBook - it would be a worthy succesor to the ARM Psion netBook (put a netBook Pro battery in the original and have 10 hrs up to 14). WinCE is/was a waste of space for the netBook - tried Jornada and netBook Pro - it's the apps - non existent if you're a non corporate type without a tame programmer

Ello Tosh, got a Toshiba?

Bought myself the Toshiba NB100 with their own re-jigged version of Ubuntu on it.

Does everything I need a netbook to do - Interent and email, with a 3 hour battery life. 200 sheets from Comet. Yes, Comet were cheaper than CCL and Ebuyer et al.

Missing the point

Ye guys are missing my point.

***You are treating a netbook as a laptop, and it should not be.***

And that's what exactly what "they" (manufacturers) want. What I believe happened was: Asus came out with the EEE 701 and it was very cheap, and very successful, and did what it was made to do (access web, skype, etc.... NOT run freaking Photoshop and Office). Everything **pre-installed** (this invalidates a good proportion of the comments above), working as intended. Then all other manufacturers jumped in the bandwagon, of course no one wants to miss the party. But "they" were mightily scared by the monster Asus had created. Where are the nice, fat margins now!? Where is the MS protection racket "money" now? The money from all the "free" crapware loaded into every MS computer to protect it from itself (or not), where did it go? And look, all these people complaining that their dishwasher does not make coffee...

So, as you can see, there are less and less netbooks out there now. "They" kept getting them more and more expensive and bigger and bigger. Laptops, basically. "They" say it's customer demand, and against your better judgment you believe it. Might be, but I doubt it. "They" are trying to go back to the good, not-yet-old days, before it's too late. I bet "they" will succeed, with your collaboration. And "they" will be back to selling only overpriced, over-spec'd machines to everyone (and not just those who actually need them) to check their email, surf the web, Skype, and mess around in some social network.

Netbooks should be more comparable to an appliance, a smart phone -- that's more how it looked like with the original EEE, and I suspect that's why Asus had the different UI. Does any moron want their phone to run XP too, since the only thing known is the "Start" button? Run Photoshop in your sat nav, anyone? Apparently few people here can change their phone or buy a new appliance, since they can't spare the time to learn a little of a slightly different interface.

Yes, stupid and/or lazy. Rationalize it any other way you want. Truth hurts only when it applies to ourselves, isn't it?

P.S. As someone mentioned above, you wouldn't be getting XP nearly for free now if it wasn't for Linux. You wouldn't be getting XP AT ALL; you would get Vista or nothing -- and there would exist no netbook either, since Vista does not run on that. How does it feel, fanboys?

@ Joe Burmeister, John White

I don't think you'll have much longer to wait.

The first-generation ARM chips are now completely patent-free; and while they were considered memory hogs by the standards of the time (every instruction requires a full 32 bit word), they are still positively frugal by 80x86 standards; people think nothing of flinging a few gigs about nowadays. The "26-bit" addressing space (it's actually 24-bit addressing space with a 32-bit word, but the prevailing 80x86-centric thinking is also necessarily byte-centric thinking) issue can be overcome, again using only techniques that are no longer covered by any still-valid patent. (The Commodore 64, Amstrad CPC and later Sinclair machines all used bank-switching techniques. And so, of course, did the BBC, which begat the ARM in the first place. "ARM1" was never implemented in silicon, but existed only as an emulator running on a BBC Master, and the first chips were designated "ARM2".)

Then there's that thing Maplin sell, which has only 128MB of RAM but is based on some sort of RISC architecture.

As long as you have the Source Code for all the software you want to run, and a standards-compliant compiler (and as any fule kno, the Open Source GCC is the de facto reference implementation of a C / C++ compiler), it simply doesn't matter what processor is in the machine. And as the amount of pirate copies of Windows, Office, Photoshop &c. will testify, *not* having the Source Code certainly *doesn't* stop anyone making unauthorised copies. There's no good reason why even paid-for software shouldn't be supplied in Source Code form (in fact, once upon a time, it actually used to be).

Little Linux Laptop

A J Stiles wrote:

"Then there's that thing Maplin sell, which has only 128MB of RAM but is based on some sort of RISC architecture."

The Maplin machine (CnM Lifestyle) is one of a family of machines based on the Ingenic JZ-4730 SoC. Other machines with this architecture include the Elonex ONEt, Bestlink Alpha 400 and Trendtac 700 EPC. The Ingenic chip itself uses a MIPSEL instruction set.

There is a thriving user and hacker community for these teensy machines. A good starting point is:

http://www.littlelinuxlaptop.com/

which will lead you to other forums such as:

http://linuxlaptopforum.ark2webdesign.co.uk/

where forum member Wicknix developed the frankly astounding new distro called '3MX':

http://www.littlelinuxlaptop.com/software/3MX.htm

I'm having a lot of fun with my Elonex ONEt.

Talk about missing the point

@J - sorry, but you simply can't dictate how people should use equipment. Even from the most extreme fanboy, I've seldom read such ridiculous and dictatorial tosh as you've come out with.

"You are treating a netbook as a laptop, and it should not be."

Why? Because you say so? Because it undermines your incredibly feeble arguments if anyone dares use a machine how they want or need to?

WTF do I want a device as big as a netbook to run Skype on, check my emails or browse the internet? I can do that perfectly well on my phone, which is hugely smaller and more portable than any netbook, and like I said before, is perfectly happy with Linux. What I NEED a small-format laptop for is to run Photoshop. The fact that you don't think I should doesn't change that requirement, and doesn't mean that a Windows-powered netbook isn't (for now) the perfect tool for me. That's not lazy or stupid, it's surely precisely the opposite - in contrast to your opinion. Morons? People who know what they want and how to get it are morons? Well thank goodness I'm not as intelligent as you, or I would have to drag a great big laptop around to use Photoshop instead of a netbook, and a great big netbook around to use Skype instead of a phone.

Heaven help us. People like you are why Linux will never make significant inroads in any consumer area - you simply haven't got a clue about real people and the real world, it appears.

Sheesh...

You still haven't understood, AC... Must be my bad English, not my native language. Or maybe you just can't read when angry.

My opinion, as stated before, is that you do not have a netbook (as originally "defined") in your hands right now. You have a small laptop. Duh. Can't see how I can be any clearer than that, so I'll stop here.

Go ahead, call your coffee maker a "dishwasher". You're free to, of course.