back to article Hoon: Not building überdatabase would be terrorist licence to kill

Transport secretary Geoff Hoon said last night that if the government is not able to harvest details of all internet communications, society will have granted terrorists a licence to kill. Appearing on BBC One's Question Time*, the journeyman minister was asked by Liberal Democrat MP and fellow panellist Julia Goldsworthy how …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.
  1. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Nice to here dat from a war crminal

    I used to live in a "non-combatant" country downwind from Serbia after he (and his other Nato counterparts) bombed it into a stone age.

    It was a wonderful autumn - all trees on western facing slopes (including conifers) shed their leaves 2 months early. Not surprising - he declared serbs electronics plants, CHEMICAL plants, REFINERIES and _LEAD_ processing factories as military targets. And all that shit went in the air and on top of innocent people outside the combat zone.

    So, frankly, it is very nice to hear lessons on terror and freedom from one of the biggest terrorists in Europe - one of those who ordered this and and was the ultimate authority when assigning and authorising targets that lead to chemical pollution killing thousands of people in downwind countries from Serbia for years to come.

    Unfortunately, it is the winners who write history and it looks like he will join Mr Harris and Mr Curtis Le May in escaping being hanged in public for the sole reason of being a "winner".

    By the way, if a terrorist blows him up personally, our sole regrets should be that he did not die a sufficiently horrible death. The death he sentenced so many people to.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Obligitory V for Vendetta Quote

    Sutler: My fellow Englishmen: tonight our country, that which we stand for, and all we hold dear, faces a grave and terrible threat. This violent and unparalleled assault on our security will not go undefended... or unpunished. Our enemy is an insidious one, seeking to divide us and destroy the very foundation of our great nation. Tonight, we must remain steadfast. We must remain determined. But most of all, we must remain united. Those caught tonight in violation of curfew will be considered in league with our enemy and prosecuted as a terrorist without leniency or exception. Tonight, I give you my most solemn vow: that justice will be swift, it will be righteous, and it will be without mercy."

  3. Chris
    Gates Horns

    The terrorists have won

    Their primary aims are to create havoc and fear.

    And what with this government bleating on about terrorism like the Spanish Inquisition the terrorists don't even need to step onto these shores again!

  4. Steve

    He hasn't a clue

    In the 30-odd years of the most recent N Irish troubles there were still more people killed in traffic accidents than by terrorists. If we'd applied Hoon's logic then we all have had our driving licenses confiscated because it's safer to walk... what a tw@t.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Write to

    your MP.

    do it today and make sure they know that you think Hoon is a Goon and Jackie is Whacky.

    Horror and outrage here mean *nothing*. For certain. Horror and outrage expressed eloquently to your MP *might* mean something.

  6. Sillyfellow

    remember irobot?

    ..makes me recall the basic plot of irobot...

    where the idea was that "a relatively few casualties/deaths" were an acceptable cost of physically preventing anyone from 'doing any harm'....

    think about this: WHAT IS FREEDOM ??

    .. it's definately not 'the right to not be killed'.. that is just total nonsense.

    these 'governing overlords' ARE the very terrorists they are pretending are someone else (foreign).

    likley government 'secret' internal meeting:

    GVT1: how we gonna remove the commoner sheeple's rights and get more control over them, so we can take and do whatever we want?

    GVT2: easy. fear=control.. so how we gonna go that then?

    GVT1: well, we have the all-powerful and unquestionable media, so let's blow a few things up, and then blame any-old terrorists..

    GVT2: yeah, i see it now... GREAT plan. we can use the media to 'prove unquestionably' these 'attacks'... then people will be afraid.. very afraid. especially when we constantly remind them they are in mortal danger without our 'essential protection mechanisms'....

    GVT1: yes. just brilliant. the public are far too stupid to realize what is really going on, and the few who might oppose, can be 'dealt with' appropriately.. especially when we have our hands on *all* their particulars.. we will be able to 'prove' whatever we want if we manipulate/or modify the data to suit our purposes..

    GVT1 & GVT2: heeeee heeeeee haaaaaa haaaaaa...; mwaaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

    so, who exactly is this great overlord? hooooon the loooooon?

    please tell me cause i would like a word with them!

    ... zzzzzzzttttt bzzzzztttttt (the sound of taser music).. say such things would you???... zzzzzzzttttt bzzzzztttttt..

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    Douglas Adams was right

    It's time to haul out the words of The Wise One for some fresh air again. Just substitute "govtard" for "newsreader"

    "Newsreaders still feel it is worth a special and rather worrying mention if, for instance, a crime was planned by people 'over the Internet.' They don't bother to mention when criminals use the telephone or the M4, or discuss their dastardly plans 'over a cup of tea,' though each of these was new and controversial in their day."

  8. UKLooney
    Stop

    YouTube Video Here

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzDfru078_w

  9. alphaxion

    @alan fisher

    No, the time for humourous icons has passed.

    It's time we, the citizens, began standing up for ourselves and letting it be known that we will not take this crap.

    We need people out protesting and educating those entranced by the hypnotic distractions of britneys latest underwear.

    We have a tool for MASSIVE communication that is under seige (t'internet) and yet we sit here and bitch without doing anything.

    Fuck this shit, I've had enough and I'm gonna start a campaign of educating the retards of this country as to what is being taken away under the guise of securing us from something as likely as madonna discovering a higgs boson.

    Nothing will change unless we take action against this destruction of everything we hold dear.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Heart

    Kelled, ehh?

    Love this bit: "The biggest civil liberty of all is not to be killed by a terrorist"

    How about we stick everyone in protective custody then?

    I hear gitmo has some openings!

  11. Sarah Bee (Written by Reg staff)

    Re: Bees?

    Bees will no longer stand for this Western oppression. BEES WILL RISE.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Mao said that

    revolutionaries (who may have some technical distinction from terrorists but probably none in current media briefings) swim in the population as fish swim in the sea.

    Damaging civil liberties makes the sea of our population less hostile to criminals swimming in it.

    The more surveillance there is of the average person, who occasionally would prefer not to be watched by unseen officials doing whatever they choose, the less remarkable they will feel lurking and slinking by others is and the less likely to assist the watchers in defeating it.

    Without any specific intention or deliberate action the effectiveness of public cooperation with the State will be reduced by these developments.

    Meanwhile in other countries governments including religious elements are not unknown. How far does imagination have to stretch to see a government using surveillance introduced in these days in order to ensure that their subjects behave only as the gods have instructed the prime minister they should?

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Coat

    The death throes..

    of a government desperately clutching at the last remnants of any credibility they may have had trying to convince us they have the answer to threats only they can perceive in order to stay in power. Only they can protect us from the big bad terrorists under the bed. If only someone could protect us from them. Then there is the big bad joke that is Geoff Hoon MP for the planet Zog.

    Smile everyone you're on Not So Candid Camera. Don't worry you'll be able to buy a pirated copy of all your life from any boot sale , or indeed a second hand laptop, there seem to be plenty up for grabs.

    The coat ? Oh thats the last labour government EVER leaving the building.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    BBBBBBBBBBB

    My father's an apiarist. Should I report him to the thought police?

  15. Bob Ginger
    Stop

    Road Deaths etc...

    I continue to watch the seemingly never-ending intrusions into our private lives and our freedoms with slack jawed disbelief. Seriously, someone needs to ask Hoon if there are any measures he WOULDN'T consider, if they could prevent the death of just one child, er,sorry, UK citizen...

    Meanwhile back at the ranch, my main point is that very many people in very many discussions invoke the numbers of deaths on the roads, doing DIY, being thrown from horses etc as an illustration of the disproportionate fear of terrorist attacks.

    What these folk fail to take into account ispeople's reactions to different kinds of risk. I urge abyone of an enquiring mind to read Prof. John Adams' excellent essay "What Kills You Matters" at the Social Affairs Unit:

    http://www.socialaffairsunit.org.uk/blog/archives/000512.php

    It is not, by any means, an apologia for the current government paranoia and frenzied lawmaking, but it may go some way towards explaining the factors that influence or distort peoples perceptions regarding the terrorist threat.

    PS. John Adams is is emeritus professor of geography at University College London. He's undertaken a great deal of work in the field of "risk" generally, often with surprising and counterintuitive findings. He writes in a pithy, straightforward manner and a lot of it is very entertaining. Have look if you're interested: http://john-adams.co.uk/

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @alphaxion

    Oh come on mate; although I agee with you completely; how likely is it that the majority of the sheep are going to lift their heads from the trough and actually take a look around?? Those of us who care enough to actually, really and truly do something are such a tiny minority that we'd be fingered and locked up as a terrorist and no-one would bat an eyelid.

    The time is not yet. Keep the popular saying in mind about unity and standing.

    Either small groups can show active resistence, be picked off one by one and used as urther ammuntion/justification by these fools or people can be made to realise and then, and only then can revolution happen....not before

    The wise know when to keep their heads down and listen.....never letting anyone see what's going on behind the eyes.

    People will realise the govt's true agenda soon enough

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    lets

    lets face it,

    Germany thought Hitler and the Nazi party were great until they lost.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It makes one wonder how the IRA managed without the WWW

    Just think, if such a database had existed years ago we'd have been able to prevent the Vikings from terrorising us and we'd be talking French. Oh, hang on, telecommunications hadn't been invented then which all things considered was bit of luck, who'd want to be French.

    Let's try a better example, Hitler. There you see, a clear case where snooping on all UK citizens prevented us from being overrun by Germans. Oh, hang on, a little voice has just said we intercepted the enemies communications. What a novel idea, spying on a specific threat, I think I'll tell Jaqui, no it's too obvious she's probably thought osfthat and discarded it already..

    On a lighter note, I recall reading a short while ago that the word podslurping has gained sufficient usage to be considered for entry to the OED. I suggest we need a more substantial variant of this as a definition for what UK Gov Plc plan to do. Maybe, "dropyoupantsbendoverandpreparefortherubbergloveslurping" or perchance, something a little more succinct, jacquislurping?

    Oh, and references to them needing a kick up the arse are quite inappropriate, a red hot poker would be more fitting and in a short time they would be both literally and metaphorically full of shit.

  19. gaz

    keith olbermann said it best

    keith olbermann said it best:

    "You sir [bush] use the term freedom as if it where an ironic marketing slogan"

    @Dunstan Vavasour:

    "Are these people wicked liars, using fear of terrorism as a premise for systematic repression, or dangerous fools who believe what they're saying?"

    Good question.

    I would say that it all comes down to UK and USA military industrial complex.

    They are creating technologies of oppression to fuel our economy, for our own good.

    So they are wicked liars and dangerous fools.

    Dwight D. Eisenhower:

    "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

    And has been with us for some time.

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Surviving this lot

    Grandparents:

    Survived 2 world wars

    Parents:

    Survived World War 2

    Myself:

    Survived IRA

    All without HM Gov's various databases.

    I'm pretty sure I can survive "Al-most credible" with out being monitored, prodded and poked by Wacky Jacky and the Hoon dog.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wacky Jacqui and Hoon the Loon

    Couldn't we just give the pair of them a pile of each other's personal data to mine? That would keep them both happy ,and the rest of us safe from their retarded concept of 'civil liberties'.

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for stupid people to do something"

  22. Dave

    Bollocks

    If it's my civil liberty not to be killed by a terrorist, how about the one where I'm not killed by a motor vehicle? Perhaps we need to ban all motor vehicles. Oh, and there's a finite chance I could be killed by a house fire, so ban all houses.

    How many people are killed or injured each year on the roads compared to terrorist activities? I think Hoon needs to get a bit of perspective here, I'd rather take my chances with the terrorists and not have his precious database because I know which one is more likely to screw up my life.

  23. Luther Blissett

    To-do

    Use the media-infotainment complex against the military-industrial complex - forensically, subversively, and entirely legally, as shown by previous generations of Luther Blissets.

  24. Sceptical Bastard

    A well-reasoned analysis...

    ... would normally be my aim here in El Reg comments.

    But as I'm so sick of the scum who 'govern' us, I'll simply say that - like most of his colleagues - Geoff Hoon is a complete fucking wanker with a brain set to 'kneejerk'. Worse: he's a bloody lawyer.

  25. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    Buffoon

    He certainly lives up to his name “buffoon”

  26. RW
    Thumb Down

    Some insight into Jacqui-Hoonistic thought

    Watching the evolution of the UK into a Big Brother society poses some interesting puzzles for those of us lucky enough to be outside the grip of Our Jacqui (Your Jacqui, fortunately!)

    Today's cheap substitute for analysis considers the question of the thought processes that lead to the kind of nonsense spouted by Mr. Hoon.

    I've concluded that Ms. Smith (and, evidently, some of her partners in crime) have minds that are extremely shallow, yet highly retentive. As a result, in early adulthood, these minds were filled up by a thin layer of first-wave memes that cannot be removed now by any known means, short perhaps of physical torture or a large bribe. Ms. Smith's quota of memic nonsense included some goofy feminist ideas related to Andrea Dworkin's immortal tag line "all intercourse is rape."

    Mr. Hoon's include "the highest value of life itself is being alive."

    WRT to Mr. Hoon, he forgets history in his state of memic mesmerization: there are lots of people throughout history who felt it was worth sacrificing their lives in the cause of freedom. Neither mankind, both current and historical, nor the UK electorate agree with his ludicrous nonsense.

    Is there no way to force these assholes out of office and begin purging the bureaucratic ranks of NuLabour pawns? Or is it simply too late?

  27. Jimmy

    Watching you, watching me.

    It really is time politicians abandoned this idea that blanket surveillance can prevent people from being killed. It isn't true, and it simply doesn't work.

    UK motorists are probably the most intensively monitored segment of the population thanks to the widespread deployment of CCTV and ANPR technology. Additional monitoring is provided by the presence of mobile road traffic police.with air support. Almost certainly the security services have access to these facilities for the purpose of targeted surveillance of suspects. On balance the benefits of this monitoring regime probably outweigh the unease of those who are being watched. Obviously, others like speed merchants, tax dodgers, joy-riders and car thieves may disagree.

    Despite all this watchfulness 2,940 people were killed in road traffic accidents on the UK road network last year. How many people were killed by terrorists last year? And, more importantly, how many will be prevented from killing by us surrendering our right to privacy?

    The problem for angry and humiliated politicians like Hoon and Smith is that they cannot reveal their real agenda. It will never be enough for them to know who we are, where we are, and who we are in communication with. What they really need to know is what we are saying and thinking so that they can provide security against what they perceive to be a threat.

    On balance I prefer to stick to the statistical evidence and take my chances with the Jihadis.

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Coat

    The time has come ...

    To start throwing things at these fuckwits.

    Big things.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Stop the Uberdatabase Petition.

    Just to tell everyone to head over to http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/privacy-matters/ and sign the petition against this evil act.

  30. Inachu
    Alien

    FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR and TYRANNY

    WOW the GOVT love to spread fear so they have more control.

    Typical NWO behavior

  31. RW
    Happy

    @ Norman Andrews

    Quoth NA: "Couldn't we just give the pair of them a pile of each other's personal data to mine? That would keep them both happy ,and the rest of us safe from their retarded concept of 'civil liberties'."

    I guess I have a dirty mind. A pile of each other's soiled underclothing might be more to the point. Hoon could contemplate the metaphysical significance of Jacqui's crotchless red-lace panties embroidered with logic-free feminist slogans, while Our Jacqui could carry out DNA analysis on the skid marks in Hoon's boxers while verifying that he wears proletarian brands of small clothes, not elitist versions.

    Disgusting, both of them, ditto their inane boss Gordon. Likewise all the spineless NuLab MP's who sit on their hands and bite their cheeks instead of following the example of the small boy in "The Emperor's New Clothes".

  32. Stewart Haywood
    Flame

    Nice holiday destination

    If I were to return to the Uk for a visit, I would not want to be blown up by a terrorist. But I also would not want to be shot by the police as I got on a train (not living in Blighty, I have developed a bit of a tan which could be a problem). I wouldn't want to be thrown inside for a month for taking a photo of Big Ben either. If I got to feeling ill, I wouldn't want to be tazered for being sick and old on a bus. My daughter points out that she, as a US citizen, has a US passport and would not want me arrested for child trafficing if we went anywhere near the Channel Tunnel. I would like to go to the pub but my wife tells me that I am 9135 times more likely to be stabbed outside a pub than blown up by a terrorist.

    I think that I will just stay where I am and let Jacqui Jill and Buff the magic wanker wrap you all up in a blast proof database to protect your rights to a free 28 day full board holiday with a bunch of knife crime experts and including a fee introductory tazering.

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    zeitgeist movie?

    Just me or is this the start of :

    http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

    Banks Nationalised (Nearly), No EU Referendum, ID Cards, Electronic Interception, Abuse of "terroism" laws (a la Animal rights activists / Iceland), etc. The list is growing by the day.

    Ok, i`ll admit it. I AM a paranoid sorta person, however with every new day these new laws to "protect us" keep cropping up you really do have to start to wonder...

    How long before the USA joins the EU &we all live happily ever after?

    PS. Glad i posted before the news laws are in as no doubt this would be labelled as _Political dissident_ and no doubt subject to the new anti-terrorism laws. Off on a rendition flight we go...

  34. Nicholas Thomas
    Black Helicopters

    I emailed my MP...

    ...did you???

    Anyway, EU directive 2006/24/E says nothing about a central database, it seems to be just the government getting an IT hardon again.

  35. Anonymous Coward
    Unhappy

    is there anyone besides me

    Who thinks that a lobotomy or two for dubya, cheney, Hoon, and jacqui would have saved all of us a lot of grief and made the world a happier, safer place? A show of hands...

  36. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @zeitgeist movie?

    ALF can rot in s--t like they deserve. Well, maybe I'll dig up your grand mother and beat up your wife to prove my point.

  37. jake Silver badge

    Oops.

    The cat posted my last offer before I had a chance to read the rest of the comments. Mods can nuke both my post, post both my posts, or ignore one or the other, I'm not picky.

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    I hope...

    Jaqui Smith's whole family are fingered in a child porn scandal after their browsing habits are leaked to the tabloids after someone in the Security Service leaves their laptop on the tube.

    And any that goes for anyone supporting this idea. I hope it comes back to bite you in the arse!

    Now's the time to start marketing those encrypted proxy services it seems.

  39. Chris Miller

    A lobotomy for 'Buff'?

    Could be a tad tricky, you'd have to locate the brain first.

    "Mr Hoon underwent a successful procedure to remove a small particle of brain that had become lodged between his ears."

  40. Sam

    Simple statement

    Hoon is a Poon.

  41. Thomas Baker
    Happy

    Sorry if someone's suggested this already...

    As we've got Whacky-Jacqui, can we have Loony Hoons as well?

    I was thinking we need another icon using this picture here:

    http://images.scotsman.com/2003/01/07/0701hoonb.jpg

    And this one as a guide:

    http://www.dan-dare.org/FreeFun/Images/CartoonsMoviesTV/LooneyTunesWallpaper800.jpg

    And this font here:

    http://www.typenow.net/themed.htm ---- Font No. 80 - Looney Tunes

    I'm miserably un-talented with Photoshop can someone do the honours?

    In fact, why not put the whole cabinet in?

    And if it's not done by morning, I'll chop your balls off!

  42. Russell Preece

    http://www.writetothem.com

    Get your comments into your MP here. Somebody accused me in a previous comment section of bleating about it but not doing anything, so I sat down yesterday and wrote a 2100 word analysis of the risks and effectiveness of this proposed database. I have now sent it to my MP, my MEP's (in case it gets that far) and to an Earl concerned with privacy issues.

    I suggest you all do the same. If people want to see what I've written for some guidance, drop me an email or i'll post it on here (not sure if the reg comments will allow 2100 words).

  43. Brian

    Kraft Durch Dummheit (redux)

    Well, well...

    After Braun und Schmidt (the inimitable double act that gave us such lovely hits as "Zwei und Vierzig Tagen", "It's fun to play with the R.I.P.A" etc.), we now have Mr Hun to complete the trio.

    Perhaps a remake of Wilson, Kepple and Betty's "Sand Dance" is in order - maybe they could redo the "Cleopatra's Nighmare" routine as "Britannia's Nigthmare".

    How did we end up in this state, where people who you wouldn't trust to flip a burger properly are Ministers of the Crown?

    Braun, Hun und Schmidt - the Wilson Kepple and Betty for the new millenium.

    I second the motion for the Guy Fawkes image tag.

  44. P. Lee
    Pirate

    Hoon

    Here in Oz, a "Hoon" is a yoof with a penchant for reckless endangerment while in control of a vehicle.

    You have to be afraid otherwise you might spend time examining what the politicians are doing.

    Obligatory youtube search: The Power of Nightmares

    I have a feeling that anyone who reaches the top has made so many compromises to get there that they can't govern ethically.

    Pirates the lot of them. And not the good kind.

  45. Jeremy Wickins

    Civil libertarians ...

    ... believe that not being dead is a necessary, but not sufficient, requirement of truly living. Unfortunately, there are a great many people who believe the contrary - that any life is better than being dead. Overcoming that is the problem we face.

  46. mr.K
    Stop

    Scratch England off the list then...*sigh*

    I have already scratched USA of the list of possible countries to visit from time to time, and there goes England. Quite a pity, I liked you, but there is no way I can go to a country where it is possible to utter such words without immediately having to resign from all official positions. It is the whole point of civil liberties that you are willing to risk quite a lot for it, even lives. The greatest civil liberty isn't to survive, but to live and die free. There have been quite a few regimes letting their subjects live and working quite hard to keep them alive, without exactly been very good at this freedom and democracy thing.

    Isn't the purpose of terror exactly this? Instil fear into a society so that it gets brought down from the inside? So by any reasonable standard uttering such statements is aiding terrorism, and thus you can not say something like that and hold any official position in a free society. It is that simple.

    When you come to your senses over there and start behaving like the great nation you once wore, I'll come visit, meanwhile you are welcome over to Norway. We got really nice fjords, much better than New Zealand. Also we are quite a bit closer.

    When you come to your senses over there and start behaving like the great nation you once wore, I'll come visit, meanwhile you are welcome over to Norway. We got really nice fjords, much better than New Zealand. Also we are quite a bit closer.

  47. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Typical

    It's the sort of insanity that you'd expect from "Buff" Hoon.

  48. Steen Hive
    Thumb Down

    Nevermind

    Look on the bright side! When all your rights and freedoms are stripped away, you will still have assassination or terrorism left as options.

  49. Anonymous Coward
    Dead Vulture

    Hello mother England

    I see people talking about using anonymizing services and thinking they will be safe. They can't tell what you're doing but they will sure as hell be able to tell you're in the network. Don't you think that before long the use of foreign proxies or a darknet like Freenet will immediately make you a person of interest to the security forces if they get a surveillance tool like this and can sniff at packet level?

    With judges instructing juries that the use of encryption is evidence of guilty intent and the law allowing burglary and bugging of suspects how long will it be before anybody running an offshore VPN or a darknet node gets a visit whilst they're out and "backups" taken? Once they have looked at the evidence all they need to do is manufacture a trumped up reason for one of the 70-odd groups of people who are now allowed to enter your home and seize the evidence for real. Either that or they make darknets illegal as they are "used by pedos and terrorists." Instant grounds for a raid. If you're Muslim they tell your neighbours you're a terrorist, if you're white they tell them you're a kiddy fiddler.

    The government know that the game is up and that the people don't trust them any more. They know we're working out they're a bunch of lying ****tards that are beyond redemption. They know the population is getting angrier and they've got to keep it down otherwise there will be direct action against them. This country is going to **** and if it wasn't for one reason I can't leave I would be out of here by Christmas.

  50. Sarah Bee (Written by Reg staff)

    Re: Ben Franklin said it best ...

    If anyone else quotes Ben Franklin I will scream. Not that it's not a corking quote, it's just that it gets wheeled out so very often and so very loftily as to sap it of all its power and meaning.

    No.

This topic is closed for new posts.