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back to article BT's third Phorm trial starts tomorrow

BT will invite thousands of its broadband subscribers to voluntarily participate in a third trial of Phorm's advertising targeting system starting tomorrow, the two firms said this morning. The trial was originally scheduled to begin in mid-March, but has been repeatedly delayed amid technical problems and legal controversy. …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Phorm IS illegal

    Until a full legal hearing and investigation proves otherwise, I will regard Phorm's "product" as illegal. Neither Phorm nor BT have ever published their alleged "legal advice" claiming their are acting within the law despite public challenges to do just that.

    Anyone doubting me should go to http://tobymeres.net and see the arguments put forward by Dr Richard Clayton and Alex Hanff. Nowhere have Phorm provided a convincing legal rebuttal.

    I dumped Virgin Media because of their association with Phorm and because they failed to understand the issues behind the growing user dislike of Phorm. Right to the end they tried to spin Phorm to me, they seriously believe that Phorm is something users want.

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  2. Anonymous Coward
    Pirate

    WebWise

    Sooo presumably there is some tag in a webwise advert... making them easy to block?

    yet to see how adverts stop phising??

    perhaps if someone is phised and they were relying on webwise then webwise is at fault??

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  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    bigg balls

    Seems to me that BT has a big pair or inside info from the EU. The idea that an it tech gave the go ahead for this with out upper managment knowing about it is silly. Considering that the British Goverment is only now giving answers to the EU on the orginal Tests on the question of legall or not? It would seem to me to that either BT have got the go ahead from Goverment to conduct such a test even though such tests advertised or not are under the EU microscope.

    For BT to go it alone with such a small company as phorm, in defienence of possible and ongoing EU actions is either the crazy misdirection of a CEO or the ability to have prior knowledge of a UK goverment stance. Given the UK goverment stance, of not charging BT, when BT have themselves have adimitted criminal acts. I think inside info has provided BT with the brass balls it needs to commence with this. In cases like this and brazen behaviour like this, when people get so condifient, that they can do or say as they please with countless others, in the name of profit, all you have to do is follow where the money goes. I have not seen it so far. I hope they do in future.

    In the days of Cesar, goverments, had spies, reporting back to middle level officials, about what Tom, Dick and Harry where doing with their neighbour. You knowthe case history, that peoples rights, didn't count as long as it made us as a little comunity with our own little civil task masters, safe in the despots, eyes.

    BT comitted a criminal act, not the first one in their history I guess.They have aslo commited credit card fraud. An act they admitted to. Show me Justice. Social well being is not indulged by a class system, of have and have nots. In todays credit crunch, Goverments are no longer pushed or pulled into power by the sway of industrial money. They are either voted in or out.

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  4. Mike Gravgaard
    Unhappy

    Great

    I wish BT would do what they are paid to do - supply a service and leave it at that..

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  5. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Their "no cookies" option doesn't seem to exist

    Tried following their suggested link to switch it off without cookies (to see how they intend to do it), but I can't find anything. Does it only appear for BT customers, or are they hoping nobody will be able to find it?

    If my ISP attempts this kind of crap, I'll be off like a shot. I'm also concerned that BT will intercept the advertising on my websites and replace it with their own.

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  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @Anyone know how to confuse the damn thing??

    1) Change the Phorm UID in your Phorm cookie each time you (or your bot script) makes a web request, thus polluting the data pool.

    2) Click on OIX adverts (or get your bot script to do so) but don't follow through with a purchase or signup, thus decreasing the effectiveness of Phorm in an advertisers view.

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  7. PugRallye

    Either it is or it isn't....

    So, if it's not illegal that they did this already without asking permission, why ask now?

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  8. Anonymous John
    Unhappy

    What next?

    Phonewise

    You're invited to switch onto BT Phonewise.

    As a BT customer, you can try an exciting new BT service called BT Phonewise.

    When switched on, BT Phonewise will monitor your calls, and interrupt them with selected adverts tailored to your interests.

    Letterwise

    You're invited to switch onto Royal Mail Letterwise.

    As a Royal Mail customer, you can try an exciting new Royal Mail service called Royal Mail Letterwise

    When switched on, Royal Mail Letterwise will open your letters, and send you selected junk mail tailored to your interests.

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  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A number of problems with this

    1. It is common security practice to clear cookies at the end of the browsing session. This mean every single time a new round of browsing starts, the opt-in page will be displayed. That will become very annoying very quickly. I suspect add-ons for the likes of Firefox will appear which take care of this page invisibly.

    2. In a shared household, each computer will see the opt-in page if no preference has been set on that computer. How can a minor give consent for this activity? Is there not a legal issue here?

    3. More broadly, when sharing computers, BT have no way to discern consent from individuals, only from computers. They are making an unwarranted assumption that one computer equals one person.

    4. The data is still being intercepted in this trial. It is still illegal to intercept my data if I have not agreed to this. BT have no way to know whether I have agreed or not, due to point 3.

    5. An observation - I've yet to see an end-user of this technology make a positive comment about it. BT appear to be relying on apathy and a large amount of spin to present this as a benefit.

    6. How will this affect utilities like wget and apt-get? I seem to rememer that the user-agent will be parsed to prevent the page from being returned to them. But in that case, are they opted in or out? If the latter, changing the user-agent string in the browser might provide a temporary workaround to having to put up with the page.

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  10. JCL
    Stop

    Alternatives

    I've about had enough and my 12 months is up this month.

    Soo, I'm emigrating in 6 months, know anyone that will provide a similar service to BT but without Phorm, and not require a 12 month sign-up?

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  11. Rob
    Alert

    On the positive side, at least this sorts out the P2P debacle.

    After all, one of the main the ISP arguments has been "What if it's not the subscriber, but one of their kids or a stranger using their open WiFi."

    Well, it would appear to be fine with BT for your kid, or even a stranger using your open WiFi to opt you in to Phorm.

    So, under the well known legal principle of what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, should we expect BT to introduce 3 strikes you're out in parallel with this scabrous bag of puss?

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  12. michael

    cokies?

    so if I have 2 diffrent borwerses and I say yes on 1 and no on the other will they only profile my browsing on the one I say yess on ?

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  13. b
    Flame

    Clear informed consent?

    How can that page possibly be construed as giving a user any idea of what's happening to their web traffic? I realise that BT are above the law but they might make some kind of effort.

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  14. Mr Jolly

    Just a thought

    According to the technical analysis of Phorm at http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/080404-phorm.pdf (point 15+16) At some point in the redirection process, a request will get redirected to webwise.net which sits inside the ISP's network.

    webwise.net is the bit that checks to see if you've got a cookie or not, if not it issues a UID then does a 307 redirect to point you to the real page.

    What would happen if someone in the trial resolved webwise.net to a local address and started issuing their own cookies in the Phorm format and doing their own 307 redirects? Would it be possible to generate random UID's every time or completely bypass their redirection system?

    Or would their system get stuck in a loop referring you between the ISP's webwise.net and your own local webwise.net?

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  15. Scott McMeekin
    Thumb Down

    Do NOT want!

    BT, what part of this sentence do you not understand?

    First time I get this opt-in page, I'm switching to another provider. I mean, I could understand (and tolerate) a system like this if I was getting a free service, but I'm not. I'm paying a service fee for a clearly defined and pre-agreed service. It's a bit like the cheeky b'stards at Sky who charge me a fortune for several hundred channels of crap laced with incessant adverts every few minutes.

    Marketing/advertising executives - the first against the wall when the revolution came.

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  16. amanfromMars Silver badge
    Alien

    For SMARTer Enabling of Deserved Choice

    "I fear that whatever happens, BT (and the others) have gone too far down the Phorm road to back out now." ..... By Andy ORourke Posted Monday 29th September 2008 10:59 GMT

    What they have dDiscovered may be Nothing to Fear, Andy. Can you Imagine a Virtual Search Engine which dDelivers Dream Needs to Feed and Propogate Dream Feeds? Is that Good Phorm and AIGreat British Service?

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  17. FoolD
    Pirate

    A 3rd illegal trial - brave or stupid ?

    As many have noted, with the opt-in being cookie based the consent is irrelevent - data is still intercepted, just not 'processed', even if opt-ed out. This means that this 3rd trial still intercepts traffic without consent - a clear creach of EU privacy laws, if not UK ones. In fact now things will be worse as the data of users who *explicitly* do not to give consent (by clicking no) is still intercepted, just not profiled.

    BT are opening themselves up for even more legal problems by rushing this trial before the non-cookie based system is active (where traffic not opt-ed in would not go through the profilers).

    One wonders why the rush to push the trial through now - maybe afraid of future EU policy changes or are they just simply running out of cash ?

    Pirate icon cos they like taking what doesn't belong to them too.

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  18. Sir Runcible Spoon
    Happy

    MAC code shennigans

    "BT advisors will claim (and have done to at least 2 people I know) that this substantial alteration to their terms and conditions is not a substantial alteration, even though we all know it is. This is quite important, as it is the difference between paying up the rest of your contract with BT, or not"

    They can claim all they want. A contract is between two parties, you only need to assert your view that there has been a change to the contract and that, as they say, is that. They are welcome to take you to court for breach of contract, but considering they that

    a) they have changed the contract and

    b) they won't do this

    I don't think it will be a problem.

    I think there are more details on the https://nodpi.org website about successfully getting your MAC code.

    @JCL : Not sure about the others like 'Be' internet, but Zen is on a monthly basis.

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  19. fords
    Thumb Up

    Vote with your wallet folks

    We did - we joined o2 who don't throttle and want nothing to do with Phorm.

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  20. Andrew Culpeck
    Flame

    Im with Ash

    If I catch Vigin doing the same I am off. Its bad enough the govenment wants to spy on my internet access but my ISP can get stuffed.

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  21. alan
    Happy

    @Chris Williams - and Joe :)

    Yey! reg = win XD

    Hoped it would be something like that, thanks for the link - should've read them myself beforehand :S

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  22. Ed Blackshaw Silver badge

    Am I the only one thinking

    that now would be a great time to short-sell BT shares? Maybe a sharp drop in their share price would be the only message that their board would understand?

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  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    RE Anyone know how to confuse

    well you can try trackmenot a plugin for firefox

    but best answer is to leave any ISP supporting phorm

    this way they are bound to loose :)

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  24. Mark H
    Go

    Don't see what all the fuss is about?

    Well if I were a BT customer I'd just opt in. There are far more important issues to worry about at this current time.

    Do all of you complaining about this not use Google then - as they store far more about you than this Phorm server ever will? From what I've read in the past this data is stored anonymously and used by the Phorm system to serve what it thinks is relevant advertising. No one is going to be searching through this data, and even if they did it's anonymous.

    There really isn't much to get worked up over in my opinion.

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  25. Anonymous Coward
    Boffin

    Interactive

    I've said it before and I'll say it again -

    There is a clear assumption that ALL http protocol traffic is interactive web browsing. There are a lot of applications, including web-hosted services and tools which use http as well you know. Surely this interception and meddling of traffic is going to cause problems with these?

    At the very least, its going to have access to senstitive data related to the internals of these applications, even if Phorm do say they filter out certain stuff.

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  26. Richard Tobin

    How do I opt my site out?

    I don't use BT, so my web browsing won't be tracked. But I have a web site. How do I opt out of having acesses to it tracked?

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  27. Eponymous Cowherd
    Joke

    @Mark H

    You are a troll and I claim my free El Reg Troll-hunter t-shirt.

    Troll Hunter t-shirt. Actually, that's not such a bad idea. How about it?

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  28. Tony

    Consumer's Association

    For what it's worth, I sent an email to the Consumer's Association (the group behind Which?) I had the following reply.

    "Thank you for your email to Which? of 22/09/2008 concerning Phorm.

    Thank you for expressing your concerns over BT and Phorm. This is something Which? researchers have an interest in and it is great to receive such considered feedback and opinion from members. I have passed your email forward to our Computing Research Team for their interest and consideration.

    For your interest, we have mentioned Phorm in a few articles, namely in Which? Computing. "

    Basically anything that hepls get the message over has to be A Good Thing.

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  29. Anonymous Coward
    Alert

    @JCL : Not sure about the others like 'Be' internet, but Zen is on a monthly basis.

    yes 'Be' is no contract month by month...

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  30. Andy ORourke
    Unhappy

    ISP - New definition

    ISP - Internet Subscriber Profiler?

    @ amanfromMars - Glad to see you back to your old self

    @MarkH - I'll bite. If I use Google it is my choice to do so given that I know what they do with my data (like I choose which "loyalty" cards to use) if BT is my ISP then I get NO choice in the matter, if I opt out using the current system all my traffic still gets deep packet inspection, they just dont act on the information (honest Guv)

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  31. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    @@Anyone know how to confuse the damn thing??

    Akshully it may be moot rather soon. Given the dire economic situation that seems to be unfolding like a slow, black flower I wonder how viable the business of advertising is going to be. Amongst many other businesses.

    Not a pretty thought. Let's see what today brings.

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  32. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Word of mouth..

    As a direct result of their involvement with Phorm, I have for the last few months been actively advising new broadband subscribers to avoid BT and the other ISPs that have a declared interest in Phorm.

    It may be only a drop in the ocean, but a lot of little drops from all of us will soon become a river.

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  33. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    @Mark H

    If I do happen to use Google, it's through freely-exercised choice on a case-by-case basis. Sure I have a choice of ISP, but typically only after a pre-defined contract period - so the choice is no longer free.

    If you want to give away your browsing habits for free, feel free - my habits are my business and I don't broadcast them widely (as will inevitably happen with Phorm as sure as CDs go missing in the post)

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  34. Dave Stark

    Injection

    Anyone up for replacing the UID in their cookies with:

    '; DROP TABLE uids;

    ? Also, anything to look out for in the Apache logs? After all, consent is required from both sides of a tapped conversation if the tap is to be legal.

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  35. RobMc
    Pirate

    website "optout"

    from http://www2.bt.com/static/i/btretail/webwise/help.html

    I own a website which contains private/sensitive information which I don't want to be scanned by Webwise. What can I do to achieve this?

    <snip> silly nonsense</snip>

    Alternatively, you may request specifically that your website is not scanned by Webwise. To request that your website not be scanned by Webwise, please email:

    website-exclusion@webwise.com

    That's going to be a busy email address lol.

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  36. Mark H

    @ Andy ORourke

    Your ISP currently logs all of your internet activity. The Phorm server looks at this anonymously to see which of it's advertising criteria you may fit into. It then serves a relevant ad if you happen to be browsing a web site which uses the Phorm system (I use Adblock so never see any adverts anyway).

    It isn't storing every website you've ever visited, every email you have sent through a web mail interface etc. It's simply having a quick glance and ticking some internal 'ad preference' boxes - all anonymously. If you opt out it doesn't even do this.

    Seriously now and all accusations of trolling aside, what is the problem with this?

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  37. Adam Foxton
    Thumb Down

    @MarkH

    The point is that you _CHOOSE_ to let Google see what you search for.

    Does this only work on HTTP? Or would it also record SNMP/FTP/Torrents/other such protocols?

    To a lawyer:

    Does this mean that BT just lost their Common Carrier status and can from tomorrow be fined for every byte of kiddie pr0n/terrorist stuff/"extreme porn"/pirated software that passes through their network? I mean it's not common carrier now, is it?

    To all sys admins:

    Please enforce the use of HTTPS at the very least on your servers.

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  38. Anony mouse
    Pirate

    T&Cs

    changes to t&cs from 16th June 2008 to new webwise enabled ones

    para 11. "your material disadvantage" becomes "your significant disadvantage"

    para 14. "at least five working days before" becomes "at least seven days before"

    para 18. The biggy.. all new para 18 and 19 deals with webwise including the award winning

    19. We will endeavour to keep our list of suspected fraudulent or illegal sites as up to date as possible and to warn you about any sites on this list if you attempt to view them However, we do not accept any liability for any loss you incur in the event that the BT Webwise service fails to warn you about a fraudulent or illegal site.

    so fucking useless then

    other changes seem to be correcting spelling mistakes and grammer.. apologies for anything i've missed

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  39. JCL

    Ta very much

    Cheers Sir Runcible Spoon and AC, I'll look them up this afternoon.

    JCL

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  40. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Cookie Opt Out

    Isn't that a sh*te system?

    Now maybe I'm being cynical, but could it be that this is a way of pestering people to opt in? Opt out and you get the opt in page frequently. Opt in and you never get the page again. So what happens? People opt in just to stop the page appearing all the time.

    Especially annoying for those who delete their cookies after every session to keep things tidy.

    Block cookies from the webwise domain? That's hardly a solution for the non technical user is it? I doubt they've considered their poor helpdesk staff when they designed this process. I'll bet the poor sods are innundated with calls from tomorrow onwards. I wonder if they've even bothered warning their call centre about this.

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  41. Piers
    Alert

    "Virgin" on the Websie site...

    "Plus, all of our data processing for our clients BT, Talk Talk and Virgin

    will be done in the UK. The system has been built from the ground up to

    ensure that there is no way user data can be accessed or stored in any way."

    From here:

    http://www.webwise.com/how-it-works/faq.html

    So watch it folks!

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  42. Anonymous Coward
    Happy

    @ JCL - Alternatives

    >> Soo, I'm emigrating in 6 months, know anyone that will provide a similar service to BT but without Phorm, and not require a 12 month sign-up?<<

    The majority of ISPs now operate on only 1 month contracts - you pay for the month in advance and cancel whenever you want to.

    The only possible issue with signing for only 6 months is that they will probably charge you for the connection fee - minimum of 12 months and the connection fee is waived.

    badphorm.co.uk have a section on various ISPs that are currently phorm-free. Take your pick.

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  43. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's all

    The reason the government and filth arn't making a whimper about Phorm is becouse they don't want to jepadize their own spying plans. Once we're all used to phorm spying on us so we can have "better adverts" why would we not allow the government to watch everyone - so they can capture terrorists and peadophiles?

    Why wouldn't you want it eh? Terrorists and Peadophiles running rampent, hiding under your bed, living in your street? Maybe you're one of them eh? Anti-Phorm then you must be Pro-Peadophile/Pro-Terrorist. That's how it'll work. Anti-NuGov Silo, Anti-Nugov Gestapo? Then you must be Pro-Peadophile and Pro-Terrorist.

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  44. Eponymous Cowherd
    Thumb Down

    @Mark H

    ***"Your ISP currently logs all of your internet activity. The Phorm server looks at this anonymously to see which of it's advertising criteria you may fit into. It then serves a relevant ad if you happen to be browsing a web site which uses the Phorm system (I use Adblock so never see any adverts anyway)."***

    This is *not* the way Phorm works. I suggest you do some research before commenting.

    ***"Seriously now and all accusations of trolling aside, what is the problem with this?"***

    Again, I suggest you do a bit of research into how Phorm works, how it is different to Google and why it is considered by many (me included) to be illegal. As a starter I suggest you read Richard Clayton's analysis:-

    http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2008/04/04/the-phorm-webwise-system/

    http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/080518-phorm.pdf

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  45. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    Umm..

    "Alternatively, you may request specifically that your website is not scanned by Webwise. To request that your website not be scanned by Webwise, please email:

    website-exclusion@webwise.com"

    So how exactly do they prove that the person sending this email is the owner of the site in question?

    Surely someone could grab a list of every single site available on the Web and email it to them for exclusion? *snigger*

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  46. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Privacy

    Where's International Rescue... er er Privacy International when they are needed

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  47. Paul Buxton

    What if I don't opt in or opt out?

    If I don't opt in or opt out when prompted and simply browse away from that page (which I assume is an option as there is the text "You may have left this page without choosing to switch BT Webwise on or off last time, so we are showing it again to ensure we record your choice." on the options page), will my defaulted option be opted in or opted out?

    Will my data still be passed through Phorm servers? What will Phorm do with the data? Parse it or not?

    I'm asking here because you're bound to have more of a clue than BTs technical helpline, even if you have absolutely no clue whatsoever.

    BT are already aware that I'll cancel if they bring Phorm anywhere near me. I don't think I'll have any issues with early termination fees. If I do, I'll sue. :-)

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  48. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    website-exclusion@webwise.com

    Auto response from this address:

    "Thank you for your submission to the Phorm website exclusion list. If there are no obvious grounds to doubt the legitimacy of the request the URL will be blocked as soon as possible, usually within 48 hours.

    To ensure that this request is from the legitimate owner of the domain Phorm will contact the domain administrator by email for confirmation of this request. If the request is not confirmed within 10 days the url will be removed from the exclusion list and an email will be sent informing you of this decision.

    Please ensure that you Administrative Contact details for this domain are up to date.If you need to update them please resubmit your request when the amended details are visible in the WhoIs database - (use a public whois service such as http://who.godaddy.com/whoischeck.aspx if you are unsure it has been updated)"

    Read receipts tell me that 12 people have read the e-mail I sent to the website exclusion address. Wonder if they're real names or fake ones to hide the guilty?

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  49. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Up to the website owners

    and copyright holders to stop Phorm then.

    An addition to the terms and conditions preventing Phorm or BT from using copyrighted material to profile should do it, then one hell of a class action over mass copyright infringement.

    Someone must be doing something about this, if not then in the next week or so, I will put something up so people can band together.

    The user's data is quite small in all of this, the actual main copyright infringement is happening to the website owners, whose copyrighted material is now being devalued by the actions of Phorm and BT.

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  50. The Other Steve

    @ Mark H of CDR

    "Seriously now and all accusations of trolling aside, what is the problem with this?"

    It isn't anonymous, and it's illegal, being a prima facie violation of both RIPA and the DPA as well as various EU legislation. (See the links provided further up this thread)

    The mechanism for gathering consent is insufficient to determine whether consent has been granted by the account holder, and giving such consent constitutes entering into a new contract with BT.

    The description of the service given to potential consumers is extremely misleading.

    The company providing the service to BT is a spyware outfit best known for installing rootkits on consumers machines without their consent, an activity for which it was under investigation by US federal authorities in a previous incarnation. To my mind, they are also Reg S scammers, although clearly that didn't work out for them, and nor is it likely to now, but that's just an opinion.

    So take your pick, really.

    And your "it's like google" argument is factually incoherent (it isn't like google in any way shape or form) and logically fallacious even if it weren't, because just saying "it's OK because someone else did it" makes it OK to murder people.

    m'kay ?

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