back to article Neo-Nazi forum hacked

German anti-fascist hackers have broken into the secure forum server of one of the world's largest neo-Nazi groups, Blood & Honour, and copied more than 30,000 pieces of data. Blood & Honour, founded back in 1987 in the UK by Ian Stuart Donaldson, leader of the notorious skinhead band Skrewdriver, has been banned in Germany …

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Hitler a socialist?

>>'What is equally frightening are those of the (predominantly) American loony right who claim Hitler was a socialist.'<<

Do you think it was the Nazis officially calling themselves the National Socialists that gave that impression?

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@Jimbo

"Graham Dawson & AC - your claim that Antifa "are no better than the Nazis" is utter bollocks. How, exactly, is giving a few boneheads a good hiding equal to the systematic murder of ten million people ? You may as well say that a five-year-old boy who hits his little sister is just as bad as the Yorkshire Ripper."

Urm, these people didnt systematic murder anyone, they hold a view that it was right. I don't agree with that, but they are welcom to hold that view. I would argue that they are wrong, and try and convince them of that, but not through violence. How about we come round and give you a good hiding, as we don't agree with your view point? No? Dosent work that way? Odd...

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Anonymous Coward

@ By Hollerith

"I am delighted that these saddies are exposed."

The irony is that the only reason they weren't exposed to start with is that someone had the bright idea to make their speech illegal. Personally I think it's better to keep them out in the open so everyone can see them for what they are. Are we so insecure as to think we can't beat these idiots and their pathetic ideology in a fair fight?

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@ Julien

"If you follow the "Doing things more illegal than another group to get your way is just beating them at their own game", then perhaps you'd advocate wandering round with a set of pliers to threaten anyone who disagrees with you (or you think "needs to be taught a lesson")."

Thank you, Captain Strawman, but that's not what I said is it? I didn't say *more* illegal. You just made that bit up

"Any info that was "released into the public domain" as part of a crack is inadmissible as evidence (otherwise all the police would need to do is hire crackers to do that every time they want to snoop and say "Oh look. Happy christmas guys!"). It may have been stuff the cops were working on, in which case.. Ooops.. Can't use that anymore. May be embarrassing to the individuals, but legally, they're probably off the hook."

Again, missing the point. Antifa have no intention of bringing court cases. They just want to expose closet racists and fascists.

"If they're doing wrong, let the police deal with it (they WILL be being monitored as most extremist groups are). If you think the police need help, offer your services a volunteer."

I do apologise, I thought I was dealing with someone who inhabits the real world. I seem to remember that it wasn't the police who stopped Mosley marching through the east end.

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Funny...

...Everyone forgets U.S. and British complicity concerning nazi's during WWII. The lines are much more blurred than people like to acknowledge. Just a thought that occured to me reading all the heavily one-sided comments. Cheers.

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Bronze badge

The biggest problem...

how do you tell if someone registered on this nazi forum because they oppose nazism?

Read a copy of I Rode With The Ku Klux Klan. If one civil rights campaigner hadn't infiltrated (joined) the KKK they would still be a political force today.

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German law differs from Anglo-Saxon law

There is no "Doctrine of the Fruit of the poisonous tree." in Germany. It does not matter how the data was obtained, only if it is true or not.

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@ Mike Smith

Heh, I was reading the commentary here and thinking "Wow, this is so much more civilised than the Speek Yur Branes equivalent would be".

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@ Mike Smith

Hmm Bigot....no I just dont think its right that

a) People allow Neo Nazis the right to publicly air their disgusting views and trot out the same "free speech" nonsense...As far as I was aware Britain technically has NO free speech laws...might have changed with the ECHR (and that could only be a good thing)

b) Said people then when someone gets killed because others spurred on by the views of those mentioned in a) say "how were we to know this would happen???"

c) I am NOT a bigot (And I take offence at that comment, said in public I think I'd be considering a slander and defamation of character lawsuit), I take the view everyone has rights, but also RESPONSIBILITIES, shame that everyone seems to know they have rights but forget their responsibilities

d) I have NO issue with i) Immigration (wife comes from overseas) ii) other cultures (as long as I can keep mine) iii)People speaking other languages with the requirement to be able to speak English so they can communicate with the majority of those who live here so again cut the bigot crap.

I mentioned the 90% tax due to the attitudes of people like the Scottish Socialist Party, Socialist labour etc, whose stated goal is "redistribution of wealth" meaning take money from those willing to work (richest 2% as usual dont pay through "creative accounting") and give it to those unwilling to work (those who are willing to work or cant through illness get nothing again through dumb policies)

Freedom of Speech has its limits, If I say I want to commit murder thats an offence as its "Intent to commit murder", "making threats", "placing others in a state of alarm", "breach of the peace" and a good few other offences to boot, so the free speech argument is a crock.

@ Everyone

Anti Semitism was a very popular ideology in the USA and Britain even before Nazi Germany, Plus try an search for Mao Mao uprising to see how much blood is on British hands.....and this was in the 1950's after world war 2 when we were all meant to be so much more aware of human rights etc. Then there is also the germ and chemical warfare tests carried out on service men under the guise of a common cold cure.

Every nation is guilty of crimes against humanity, its how we act to try and stop crimes against humanity as well as how we deal with the aftermath.

And sadly allowing Nazis to spread their crap is not the right way to avoid the past

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"

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Anonymous Coward

"Harmless"

The reason why certain Nazi groups are banned here in Germany is precisely because they have shown themselves to be any but harmless.

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@ P. Lee

"To those quoting "do unto others..." as a justification for their actions..."

I haven't misunderstood it, but "do unto them as they have done unto you" is a direct corollary. It's even more fitting given the number of facists/racists that proclaim themselves to be Christian. Besides, it's not like this is new territory, activists on both sides have always been doing this. It's the nature of grassroots movements (which both are) that people get involved to the level that they are comfortable with in terms of morals and amount of time put in.

The overall tone depends on the distribution of the people within the movement. You obviously disagree with their ideas but value their right to hold those ideas so you sit at the less confrontational end of the spectrum. I fully respect that and I want to live in a society that's heavily weighted towards that view, but I don't think tutting disaproval should be the only response availabe.

"A little perspective is required. Destroy their influence by showing their way of life to be inadequate, not by trying to beat them up."

I see that False Dichotomy Boy has turned up to support Captain Strawman. If all they are doing is handing out leaflets and talking to people on the street then you counter with the same. It happened recently (Nottingham, I think) when the BNP put up a stall in the city centre and passers by started shouting them down, a crowd gathered and told them to leave. The police watched the whole thing, no-one was hurt and no-one was arrested.

If they're involved in planning an attack/action then they are more likely to end up with people outside their house trying to shame them in front of their neighbours than getting beaten up in an alley. There is probably the same proportion of violent people who claim the name Antifa as there are people registered on that site. In fact, it's likely to be less as people who are against facism run the gamut from fluffies to spikies whereas you don't get really fluffy facists.

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Left,Right,Centre

Extremist of any type, whether political, religious or otherwise are all unpleasant and unnecessary. More important is the fact that all of them are interested in personal power. If they do have an interest in what is good for the people it is always secondary to power. At hearty all politicians are oligarchists and as such to be resisted and avoided. Even the centrist governments we have in the UK nowadays as pathetic as they are with their lacklustre policies are oligarchist they have NO interest in democracy once the lip service they pay it at each general election is over and done with for five years.

Freedom of speech for all? Yes. Politicians of the left, right or centre? NO.

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Anonymous Coward

@Paul

It seems you have been misinterpretted due to your use of the phrase "are no better than the Nazis" where in fact you probably meant to say "the neo-Nazis" or "the present day facist 'community'".

Sorry... was that too reasonable for this comments section?

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Anonymous cowards

"Oh dear... what a pity... never mind! Should be the sort of thing our intelligence(??) services should be doing."

Just because they haven't left a CD for your perusal in a dead letter railway carriage, it doen't mean they haven't left laptops full of such information elsewhere.

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Hans, are we the baddies?

Any sensible person knows one thing - Surf Nazis Must Die.

And as far as I'm concerned, anybody who believes fluffy minded cultural relativism can be applied to Nazis is an idiot, end of. We saw "ethnic cleansing" less than 10 years ago in Kosovo, and that was just a pale imitation of what Nazis did, and would do again given the chance. Nazis need to be confronted head on and pounded into the dust, all day, every day, for ever. Firm but firm, thats me all over...

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Pirate

Oh my, oh my...

OK, I'm not supporting the crackers either, but some things I should say.

"No-one really believes in Naziism any more. If a few weirdos want to wear jackboots, let them -- there is not the slightest risk to the rest of us."

As some already pointed out, wake up and smell the coffee... You obviously do not read the German-language news. They are quite interested in these issues, for obvious reasons. Neo-Nazis are a BIG problem there, specially in the former Eastern Germany areas. In Russia too, the violence against anyone who the NNs don't like (foreigners, gays, whatever) is extreme and POPULAR. That's the worst, "common people" (some granny or whatever in the streets, hardly people you'd label extremists) pretend they don't see it, and when speaking anonymously they support the NNs' actions.

The political arms of these organizations are in the parliaments, and getting *low double digits* already in some regions, if I remember correctly. Don't for a moment think they are gone and not a risk. We are still naked monkeys, genocide and its relatives are alive and well, and we'll do it as soon as we can get away with it. Count on it.

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Anonymous Coward

Live by the sword - die by the sword

Same goes for both sides.

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Stop

Now the "free speech" stuff...

OK, this is not as simple as some apparently simpleminded absolutists around here seem to think...

Since when is "free speech" an absolute? It's never been and it will never be and rightly so, most probably. Sure, I too believe everyone should be able to say and publish whatever they want -- and then suffer the consequences. Read again that last bit. The one about consequences. I'll wait, go ahead...

No censorship of what's will be said, but once it's said, and if found by society to be harmful, it should be punished. So while technically you could say whatever you want, you might not get away with some things.

So, it all depends on what is said, and whether it causes harm. I don't know the UK laws, but don't you have some anti-libel, slander and defamation or whatnots there? Can you send bomb threats at your heart's content to everyone and sundry? Why the hell not, isn't that a free country? So, with this little straw man of mine I hope you got the point.

- some idiots say they hate X, Y and Z? Fine with me, that's their opinion.

- some idiots say X, Y and Z should be exterminated. Crime. Or should be. Incitement to violence, or whatever is the name, in case you have such a law already.

It's not easy, of course, but whomever thinks it would be is either sick in the head or very badly informed...

I did not write anything about physical actions, of course, because it's obvious. But direct physical action is not the only way to hurt people, is it?

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Anonymous Coward

@ Now the free speech stuff

As a member of society I find your words harmful - by your own logic you should be punished.

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@Steve

"but "do unto them as they have done unto you" is a direct corollary."

You didn't study logic much did you.

"Do unto others" means behaving in the way you want others to behave toward you. That doesn't translate into, as others have put it, sinking to their level if you don't get your way. That vengeful act negates the act of taking the superior road in the first place.

If you are going to do unto others then you have to bloody well stick to it and not throw a tantrum of revenge merely because the other side acted like arses. You can't throw away your convictions about law when they become inconvenient otherwise you are really no better than the people you say you're standing against. You have to draw a line, and say "I will not do these things."

And so back to my original point: Breaking the law whilst claiming to protect the law makes a mockery of the law. Not so long ago people on this very site were rightly berating the illegal activities of several western governments, actions taken in the name of protecting law and liberty. Where is that demand for the rule of law now? The fact that this group are undesirable to you doesn't mean you can throw away all that high talk of justice and the supremacy of law. It works both ways.

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Pirate

Up the antifa

So we have people planning attacks on immigrants, spreading holocaust denial, whatever. And we have people who have cracked their server and made their sordid crap public.

Seems to me like a clear-cut case of self-defence.

But we get a torrent of folk telling us "left as bad as right", "freedom of speech for all", "respect the rule of law". It's not a very sophisticated understanding, is it?

-> Antifa are mostly anarchists, and definitely not-Stalin era state communists

-> Why freedom of speech for those that would deny it to you?

- -> then why not give them freedom to plan firebombings?

- - -> the blood and whatever members haven't been gagged, they've been exposed. Tough fucking shit. If you believe in your politics, share them with your neighbours. If you think that foreigners should be deported or put in death camps, your neighbour might like to know that. Especially if you live in Rostock.

And for the Americans, calling something "National Socialism" does not make it socialist. We're talking about politics here, not variable type declarations.

https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4370344/indymedia_blood__amp__honour_hack

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No moral equivalence

Claiming moral equivalence between fascists and anti-fascists is like claiming moral equivalence between rapists and feminists, it is a specious argument that indicates you have no experience of either group.

15 years ago I spent an afternoon talking one of my apprentices out of a far-right group. He had been ostracised by his peers but responded to logical argument. I was recently car-jacked by a local 'white-power' gang of similar lads and was drugged, held-hostage for a day and threatened credibly with murder. The UK extreme right has expanded and is more murderous than any other political grouping and sites like this should be taken down by anyone capable. Well done the hacker and the 'house-visitor' - a term which could just imply an undercover visit to watch a password being typed despite the assumptions of some comments.

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They got what they desereed

Well the Nazi's got what they deserved and i hope someone goes round their houses and beats them up in front of their families.

But then, they know what thats like...

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Boffin

@ Now the "free speech" stuff...

You say it should be a crime to say "X should be exterminated", I trust this extends to people who say that about neo-nazis. In fact at least two of the comments above amounted to as much. Several more voice approval of committing crimes (like hacking) against them.

No I think the line must be drawn just a bit further. It's getting darn close, but that's still just stating an opinion.

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Freedom of speech

I love all these people bleating about the infringement of the Nazis' freedom of speech, when actually the hackers have *disseminated* their views to a much wider audience. Can't get more free than that.

And that's the way to fight bigoted speech - give them enough rope to hang themselves, and point out the total f#ckwittedness of their views to as many as possible. Bullies tend to go away when people point and laugh at them.

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More civil liberties

Gents... I'm not worried that much about what happens to Neo-Nazis, since I'm not one. But I'm much less sure that similar tactics won't be used on us all, once they become acceptable.

What I worry about is the rest of us. Nazi-style oppression of this kind of an unpopular minority is acceptable, it seems, to a lot of people here. After all, the most appalling bigotry is apparently OK in this forum, so long as you can call the victims "Nazi's"!

It makes me shiver. Who's next on the witch-hunt list? Me? Or you? How can we be sure that these nasty bigots -- who really do enjoy a lot of establishment support -- won't one day decide that WE need to be targetted? "When they came for the Nazi's, I said nothing because I wasn't a Nazi. And when they came for me, there was no-one left to speak out for me" -- is that how some future Niemoller will record our times?

What kind of society do we want? One where unpopular minorities can be targeted for extreme violence? One where a legal group can be demonised by its enemies and its members deprived of their human rights?

I don't. Let the jackboot lovers do their thing, if they want. If they break the law -- I don't mean laws invented solely to oppress them, or on encouragement from agents provocateurs (which is illegal anyway) -- then let them face the same justice as everyone else; not for their political views, but for their crimes.

Or does the terrifying lust of hatred so visible in many of these comments blind everyone?

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Black Helicopters

Its just gang vs gang

This is all small scale stuff, gang vs gang. The traditional Nazi is a SA member -- Brownshirt, into marching, inflammatory speeches, beer halls, fighting with Communists and so on. This is just cosmetic, a feature of time and place, and they're not worth bothering about. What you should be worried about are the Fascists proper because what's passing for government these days is very close to Fascism. It doesn't look like the 1930s because its not the 1930s but the social elements are there, even in the US.

This is a tech site so I don't want to waste a ton of bandwidth on this -- your local library should have lots of material on it (assuming its not been withdrawn, your taste in reading isn't reported to the relevant authorities and so on). (Reading about Petain and Vichy France is useful.)(Mein Kampf is also worth a look -- it tends to go on a bit.) The downside of reading is that you're going to look around you and you'll get one of those "Oh S**t!" moments....

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@spam

So....Nazis go round and beat people up in their homes, in front of their families.

Anti-Nazis will, err, go round and beat people up in their homes, in front of their families.

The phrase "philosophical contradiction" comes to mind, better known as "double standards" or "blatant hypocrisy".

The fascists were (are!) in the wrong. No one is contesting that one iota. Thing is, in this story there just happens to be two sets of fascists. Both want to censor free-speech, both hate people for their world views, both advocate violence against the person.

@chris

The Nazis were left-wing and had many socialist policies. If you were the correct colour. And the correct ethnicity. And the correct sexual persuasion. And the correct religion.

@Danny

False analogy. Feminists do not rape to make their point. No more needs to be said.

@Old Painless

'We saw "ethnic cleansing" less than 10 years ago in Kosovo, and that was just a pale imitation of what Nazis did'

...and then...

'Nazis need to be confronted head on and pounded into the dust'.

You really couldn't make it up!

Those against fascism are just so happy to engage in the same tactics so long as the target is a fascist who disagrees with their world-view. They are no different to those they claim to despise. They just wrap themselves in the flags and honour of the fallen, in an idealised history of the past. They are cut from the same cloth.

Intolerance and bigotry is just that. Intolerance and bigotry.

I hope one day you can work that out.

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Anonymous Coward

@Steve (@Julien)

Julien said:

"If you follow the "Doing things more illegal than another group to get your way is just beating them at their own game", then perhaps you'd advocate wandering round with a set of pliers to threaten anyone who disagrees with you (or you think "needs to be taught a lesson")."

Steve said:

"Thank you, Captain Strawman, but that's not what I said is it? I didn't say *more* illegal. You just made that bit up"

No, he didn't. The article says that they engaged in cracking and housebreaking. You appluaded them for doing so.

Julien said:

"If they're doing wrong, let the police deal with it (they WILL be being monitored as most extremist groups are). If you think the police need help, offer your services a volunteer."

Steve said:

"I do apologise, I thought I was dealing with someone who inhabits the real world. I seem to remember that it wasn't the police who stopped Mosley marching through the east end."

Again, we're in free speech vs violence territory.

The fascists, while being vile racist bigots, were not engaging in violence and the police allowed a non-violent march to go ahead. The violence was started by those opposing the march.

This caused a watershed in political thinking: while the US continued to proclaim free speech above all, we developed the notion that some acts of expression while seemingly legitimate serve only to cause offense or aggravation.

So yes, we are now culturally and politically inclined to reject the notion of free speech as inalienable -- however, the legislation introduced as a result explicitly acted against the actions and expressions of large bodies and not the political leanings of the individual.

So while you may use this to justify Blood & Honour as "fair game", nothing in our political, social or legal history justifies the members of said body as "fair game".

Stealing the details was a crime against the organisation -- publishing them was a crime against the individuals.

Not on.

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So, to summarize ..

Stop facist violence. Kill (or at least maim) all violent people.

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@ the litigious AC

So you don't think you're a bigot? Good. You certainly came across as one though. Wikipedia gives the definition as, "a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own." OK, it's not from the Oxford Dictionary, but it's a pretty good definition nonetheless.

Let's look again at your original post:

"Frankly I feel that holding Nazi views or being a member of a neo nazi group should equal lifetime hard labour or if the labour camps are full......hanging or a bullet....whats ever cheaper"

That, my son, is exactly the approach taken by totalitarian regimes across the globe. The Nazis hounded the communists. So did the Falangists during the Spanish Civil War. Zanu PF in Zimbabwe did (and do) the same thing to the MDC. The Burmese junta isn't exactly tolerant of their political opposition. During the Cold War, political opposition in Eastern Europe would earn you a spell in chokey for a trivial offence. In Pinochet's Chile, you would simply disappear. I didn't notice Saddam Hussein facing political opposition when he ruled Iraq. Neither did the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Or the Taliban in Afghanistan. And so on.

"I loathe Nazis and I also loathe so called "communists" same idea just wrapped up in different words"

I agree with you there. The difference is that I don't feel they should be put up against the wall and shot just for holding different views than I do.

"Frankly I think the BNP etc should be banned"

And driven underground. Which would make it much more difficult to monitor them.

"and any past or present members should be rounded up and dealt with as above"

And make some instant martyrs.

Let's say Comrade Brown did decide to outlaw the BNP. Nick Griffin and all the leadership are shipped off to Tristan da Cunha in the South Atlantic after a show trial. How happy you would be.

And then - whenever there's a race crime involving minorities attacking whites, whenever the Daily Mail fulminates against immigration and EU bureaucracy and whenever the White House says shit and Downing Street starts straining there would be an increasing level of sympathy for the poor sods slung into exile for standing up for Britain. The cold hard facts don't come into it; that's how it would appear.

"as well as the "socialist hardcore" parties (SSP, socialist labour, Respect etc)"

Another group of people with different views who need some re-education, eh citizen?

"Why should I pay 90% tax solely because I work hard and spent time studying??"

If you don't want a socialist government, vote for another candidate come election time. If you're not prepared to vote at all, don't complain. An MP will always be elected, even if they only get one vote. That's how the system works, for better or worse.

"They arent banned though as they make the govt look better and a "saner" option"

If that's the case, why is the BNP attracting increasing levels of support?

"Though at this rate I wont earn enough to pay tax given the amount of jobs being sent overseas or reserved for "ethnic groups" or "young single mothers" or "religious minorities" rather than anyone qualified to do the job properly"

Jeez. Is your real name Alf Garnett, by any chance?

"Though makes sense given the amount of hand wringers who worry and fret about being "fair" to everyone and end up only being fair to those who dont deserve fairness"

In spite of the half-arsed "targeted" legislation introduced over the last ten years, we are all supposed to be equal before the law. That explains why anti-terror laws can be (and are) abused by over-zealous police officers and local authorities, BTW.

Your attitude - "abu hamza and his ilk, nick griffin and his crew of nazis in suits, traitors to Britain like George Galloway" - is a perfect illustration of why that principle needs to be upheld. Ahborrent views or not, they need to be protected from the sort of lynch-mob mentality displayed by your post. If Abu Hamza, the BNP or George Galloway break the law, they should be dealt with appropriately.

Whether the law is weak in some areas is another matter. But either way, that doesn't condone anyone appointing themselves judge, jury and executioner.

"This country has lost its mind well and truly, feral children running wild everywhere (If you dont have them in your area, must be nice living in a gated community safe from "reality")"

No they're not, and no, I don't live in a gated community. I live and work in a big city.

Yes, there are gangs of youths around, but they're no more common than they were in the late 70s and early 80s when I was a teenager. The main difference I've noticed is the generations don't seem to communicate as much as they used to; and when they do, it's often in a confrontational manner. You don't gain respect by shouting at people, be they youths or mature adults.

From your second post:

"I am NOT a bigot (And I take offence at that comment, said in public I think I'd be considering a slander and defamation of character lawsuit)"

Well, you could have fooled me. Although on reflection, perhaps "incoherent confusion" (aka "Unfocused Rage" on Speak Your Branes) might be a better definition perhaps? All I can see is that you're wanting to suppress certain groups using the violent methods you profess to despise because said groups endorse them; and if that isn't a case of the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.

And threatening to sue is both pathetic and cowardly, particularly as you haven't got the balls to give your name.

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Anonymous Coward

@Stephen Gray

Comparing a small bunch of moronic mindless thugs with the Third Reich really does show a complete lack of perspective. As various people here have suggested, persecuting them will only result in them gaining sympathy and support.

Hate is a despicable emotion no matter what political colour you paint it and I still maintain that both groups are as bad as each other. However, there is supposed to be a rule of law and if the anti-fascists broke the law then they should be brought to book for it.

Having extreme views, and being permitted to voice them, IS part of the freedom for which our fathers and grandfathers fought and once you erode that, you start to erode all our freedoms.

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Ahistorical nonsense

Someone said to someone about the Battle of Cable Street: "The fascists, while being vile racist bigots, were not engaging in violence and the police allowed a non-violent march to go ahead. The violence was started by those opposing the march."

Come on.

What the fuck was Mosely's /purpose/ in marching his anti-semites through the overwhelmingly Jewish East End?

"Hi, we'd like to march down your street shouting 'kill the yids' but don't worry we'll be peaceful, it's nothing to do with empowering my blackshirts for a British Kristallnacht"

We should be pleased that we (appear to) have the safety to spout such dangerously unrealistic ignorance of history but it doesn't mean we should forget who the enemy is/was.

I think this "equivalence of left & right" canard is promoted by the establishment / government, who've always seen fascism as a convenient means of controlling inconvenient people. Witness the Daily Mail and their "Hurrah for the Blackshirts," the plot for a UK military government in the early 70s.

Leaders. They hate our freedoms :)

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Extreme commenters

Holy crap - why does every story have to be taken to its most extreme conclusion?! Whoops, there now follows flame after flame about the need to get to the crux of the issue, even if it means cobbling together the last hundred years of human history - on an IT Website. It's alright, below follows some excellent hypocrisy on my part:

The most reasonable argument I have seen here so far was from someone who reminded us that people have responsibilities as well as rights.

If you want me to go into it a bit further (which I know you all love), that logic applies to anything, and I do mean anything.

If it swings too far one way, you would have morbidly obese people (another favourite Reg comments subject) suing McDonald's because they're so hideously fat, which I realise has happened before.

If it swings too far the other way, you have morbidly obese people being refused medical treatment for their fatness because they allowed themselves to get hideously fat.

What is needed is balance, people. And the million dollar/euro/pound/yen (sorry, didn't want to offend anyone) question is: Who decides where the balance lies?

And if by some miracle the masses end up deciding (apologies for being so idealistic), then they've got no grounds to complain if it all goes tits up!

In the case of the original Nazis (and here's where my 'C' in A-level history comes into its own), despite the ground swell of support the National Socialist Party had by the early thirties, the Nazis swept to power, with Hitler being appointed chancellor in 1933, without winning a majority vote.

Incidentally, the brown shirts first won the war on the streets by giving their commie opposition a proper kicking.

Now for my opinion (and this is just my opinion, of course): You can't ignore Nazis - because they certainly aren't ignoring you - so lets all get together and give them a right good shit kicking. It'll be fun.

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Anonymous Coward

@Chris

"Leaders. They hate our freedoms :)"

You're not wrong

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@AC

"I am NOT a bigot (And I take offence at that comment, said in public I think I'd be considering a slander and defamation of character lawsuit)"

You've already had a trouncing at the hands of some readers, and deservedly so. I just wanted to ask whether you'd actually read your post before hitting send (or indeed since then). How do you think your litigation would go when your post was exhibit A?

You are seriously confused. Maybe you should consider joining the BNP or a local fascist organisation, you'd fit right in.

I don't like your opinion. Does that mean I should have you killed? After all, I'd only be playing by your rules, would that be ok? Of course it wouldn't.

You are a bigot! (so sue me - I dare you).

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Paris Hilton

"Kill all Extremists!!!"

yes: "!!!" - for those who didn't get it at first.. ;)

Paris, for being stupid but peaceful (when not in bitch-mode)...

Shalom, all!

nils

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Joke

@AC

"As various people here have suggested, persecuting them will only result in them gaining sympathy and support." from whom? Other racist tossers? Dont care! However I for one would pay to see some yoghurt weaving, dream catcher types marching down Pall Mall protesting about the persecution of fascists, just imagine the banners....LOL

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Wow

What a lot of bile and vitriol!!

The sheer quantity of people claiming to hate Neo-Nazism and then wanting to cause harm to those who indulge is shocking.

There is only one cure for *all* extremist views - education.

Someone said further up, talking to people and using logic works far better than pushing any group underground.

As for the Mosley march, it was done for the same reason as every single march, to gain publicity for the position of the people involved in the march. It's the reason for Gay pride marches, for peace marches, for anything - they have a view and want everyone to know what it is.

And contrary to some comments, we do have freedom of exression, it's enshrined in the ECHR (article 10, IIRC).

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@ EvilGav

"we do have freedom of exression (sic), it's enshrined in the ECHR (article 10, IIRC)." yeah right up until the moment you want to protest about an illegal war...

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Flame

Some bile & vitriol for EvilGav

"As for the Mosley march, it was done for the same reason as (...) Gay pride marches,"

Because "kill the yids" is less threatening than "we're here, we're queer, get used to it" ?

A quasi-militaristic, thinly-veiled threat to peoples' lives is just the same as an oppressed group finding strength in communal assertion of their rights(*)?

People who think this is just an abstract exchange of views in the spirit of the Athenian academy need to get out more. B&H is a forum for people to organise and support racist acts. The Register demographic tends to not be the victim of those attacks so perhaps people should think twice before pronouncing on the equivalence of all political viewpoints and methods. Recognise that you're privileged before telling threatened people how they should act.

Moral relativism as anti-social fuckwittery. Would all this ink be expended in defending free speech if it were a "jihadist" website that'd been cracked?

Neo-nazis in Russia have killed tens of people in recent years. Perhaps we should leave it to the state to deal with that... oh. wait. they don't care.

(*) - yes I know that Pride is *now* a big corporate jamboree.

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ye but

Last I recalled being a neo-Nazi was not a crime

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gfy

"No-one really believes in Naziism any more. If a few weirdos want to wear jackboots, let them -- there is not the slightest risk to the rest of us."

At a guess, I'd suggest you probably aren't Jewish, or a trade unionist, or gay, or Roma. You might not think that there's not the slightest risk to *you*, but that's not true for everyone else, and that doesn't mean that others who wouldn't be first up against the wall share your tranquility.

"Any info that was "released into the public domain" as part of a crack is inadmissible as evidence (otherwise all the police would need to do is hire crackers to do that every time they want to snoop and say "Oh look. Happy christmas guys!"). It may have been stuff the cops were working on, in which case.. Ooops.. Can't use that anymore. May be embarrassing to the individuals, but legally, they're probably off the hook."

I'd like to know what information/expertise you're relying on to make that statement. The information may have been obtained illegally, but the state wasn't responsible for that. If the state had hired crackers to do it, then it would have been responsible for that. Admissibility is a complex (and tedious) part of legal practice. What's your familiarity with German law on it?

"We saw "ethnic cleansing" less than 10 years ago in Kosovo"

I'm not sure if Kosovo is the example you want to give here, given that the Kosova Albanian political leadership was perfectly happy to see Serbian civilians driven out of Kosova, and that NATO has not shown any serious interest in insisting on their actual return.

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Anonymous Coward

Oh the spirit of the Antenian Academy

when slaves were well slaves, and women didn't have the vote.

Where Alexander the Great createed living space for the Greek people, who took power by quashing a rebellion, and slaughtered well quite a few more than tens of people. Oh, and not to mention the forced execution of the one of the greatest scholars, for inciting the youth.

Seriously, I think you need to stay in more and read up on the past.

There is always an ist or an ism, them versus us, the biggest one is race primarily because it reflects culture, is easily identifiable, and is linked directly to family. But, don't think for one moment that is the only divider, there are many more in the making, and Labour seems to be the most 'ist of political parties in recent history, never has there been so much division caused by their actions.

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Boffin

er, AC

It's not clear but I think you think I was advocating a return to ancient Greece. Whereas I think you've bolstered my point that there is no debate devoid of social context, whether that is acknowledged or not.

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Anonymous Coward

What about the SNP

Scottish Nationalist Party.

Looks like they will have Scotland come next election, which will mean devolution, and I cannot help think that was the real plan all along; get a couple of Scots into power in number 10, and then drive the country into the ground so Scotland can devolve into a Nationalist state, where they whack up a wall, and kick all the non-Scotts out.

So, what is our response to this, the Tories, oh this is gong to be so amusing.

Plaid Cymru, is the Welsh National Party, with about 1/4 of the Welsh seats, I suspect they may move into the majority seats in Wales next election, so goodbye Wales.

So, are we going to be left with Northern Ireland, if you check your history, they may go Scottish or not, or hell why don't they just devolve as well, separate state is probably best for them.

Then you are just left with England, who will have all the immigrants from Wales,

Scotland and N.Ireland, hmm I wonder if we will be forced to go nationalist then. We will just be knee deep in people and traffic.

Oh wouldn't it be funny if Cornwall broke away as well, there are a few grievances there. Norfolk might do it as well. Along with Yorkshire and the South divide.

And frankly devolution would be great for all of us, a lot of us have Welsh and Scottish blood, and the ability to put on both accents, we could sneak into the place we have true allegiance to, and trade would be less restricted, and wouldn't it make life far more exciting.

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@EvilGaz - reasonable actions

"Someone said further up, talking to people and using logic works far better than pushing any group underground."

I think you are referring to my two contrasting anecdotes, and I agree but you have misunderstood my point. The NeoNazi fora don't encourage free debate because they carry the threat of deadly violence. I believe there is more hidden fascist violence than any antifascist group claims, as my own threatened murder was to be a faked suicide and there were other strangers threatened that night simply on the basis of their race. The smartest of you would find it hard to reason with someone who considers Cubans as Asians, especially with a knife to your throat. This was unprovoked as my assailants never knew me whereas I have also deeply insulted the hardest antifascists without similar threat.

Antifascists do not go around threatening and killing strangers despite what some here falsely imply, while fascists really do. Sites like these sow ignorance and create an atmosphere where such behaviour is acceptable and even admired. It is not like for like. Antifascism is more like societal chemotherapy, a somewhat damaging potential cure for a certainly fatal illness. I would never kill a fascist I could talk to but I would oppose a fascist rally using minimal force.

I'd appeal for the folk here who have the technical wherewithall to help remove the most inhumane and discriminatory sources as peaceably as possible, in other words to moderate, to stop things getting more dangerous for us all. At some point fighting back becomes inevitable for all of us.

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Anonymous Coward

Getting back to the story for a mo.

Germany is still one of the only countries that requires a person have German lineage.

I do hope Antifa are going to crack into that database, that surely is the main one, then Germany can have all the immigrants. Perhaps they can all hang out at Antifa's pad :)

Germany is quite well protected using Nationalist ideals, so in someways they don't need a Nationalist party, all their parties are already. And so much is enshrined in law that protects them from immigration. Their society is also very pro Germans, they don't tend to hire from abroad if they can help it.

So Antifa, want to sort out your own country first perhaps, because as soon as you get a lot of immigration you will see what it does to your country. Some of it is ok but too much and there are a lot of problems.

Oddly enough when East Germany merged with West Germany, that was a biggie for Germany, it sent the economy tumbling, and that's when the immigrants come with their land attached, imagine what happens when they don't :)

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Linux

Always the same crap...

The story should have been "Blue monkey team steals red monkey team's cave paintings, grey monkeys give large but impotent response".

*mumbles and drinks more absinthe*

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