Linux risks netbooks defeat to Microsoft
Ubuntu-based things do well in tech circles, but the consumer space is different, as gOS discovered when Wal-Mart blamed poor demand from baseball caps and mullets for its decision to stop selling Linux-loaded PCs. David Liu, chief executive of Emeryville, California-based gOS, is undaunted. Indeed he is optimistic that Linux …
Nope, it is completely correct to use the absolute FACT that not everyone wants a four-door family saloon and so a CHOICE of what you want rather than being told "anything as long as it's black" is vastly preferable.
Just like OS's.
I want KDE and enlightenment.
Bob wants Gnome.
Alice wants XFCE.
So fuck off and die you coward.
The correct full name would be : 'Gnu's Not Unix Image Manipulating Program (and keep recursing the gnu...)
Might as well have called it PCMCIA . People Can't Memorise computer Industry acronyms.
Why not call it something like 'Imagine' ( short for Image Engine ) . . What i'm getting at is : we have horsepower in our computers these days , can we please leave the archaic 8.3 filenames and 2 letter commands ( because hstorically parsers were dumb and had to be small due to memory restrictions ) behind.
Try to come up with a name that explains in one word what it does. Go out in the street and and ask 1000000 people : if i give you a program called Gimp .. what do you think it does ? Ask the same question for something called 'Photoshop' of 'PhotoAlbum'.. That's what i am getting at.
As long as you try to sell a system full of made-up geeky names , cryptic commands and programs that do not give a consistent look and feel ( this program uses this graphics library, that one uses that graphic library and toolbox, buttons don't even look uniform ) you simply scare people. That is what the Mac OS work shines at ( and i am not a fanboi , i don't even have a mac or anything apple for that matter )
They simpify the gui so that all programs look the same. ( i have seen linux desktops where on window 1 the close button is left top , and on window two it is right top ... can we please keep things simple ? ) Even microsoft only updates their gui look and feels every 5 years or so. Linux ? every two motnhs there is a new gui ..
Wow! I tell you what, If Moses had to lead the children today he'd have an easy time marching through the absolute chasm between the Windows and Linux camps.
Damn I love reading this stuff. When the Sc-Fi channel goes all mundane I can always count on this site (and the "other" one) for raw entertainment.
I am a happy user of Linux *as a server*. I have tried to use it a few times as a desktop install and wiped it each and every time. Here is my wishlist for a Linux desktop (some of which may have already happened, knowing FOSS):
1) apt & yum and others are great. I have my server updating once a week without any problems. However, trying to figure out which packages/software are available, what they do, etc, etc, could be made simpler by (for example) having a, er.., product, which lists the available packages by names and/or categories and/or keywords (etc) with a description of what each package does.
2) Installation of packages should create an appropriate icon on the desktop or item in the appropriate menu list. Yes, yes, I know *some* packages do this already, but not all. And it should include an easy "uninstall" option for when you've realised you've installed the wrong package.
3) a pre-configured version of Wine or equivalent. Yes people, realise that the majority of users you want to attract (myself included) will have a stack of old MSWindows program they still want to use. Deal with it.
4) I perfectly agree with some of the comments - some packages are just too much pain to use. GIMP and OpenOffice come to mind. Did someone purposefully go out of their way to make them as un-windows as possible? Somebody *please* tell me how I can get OpenOffice to display my documents in something akin to MSWord's "Normal View"? Is it so hard to understand that some of us *don't* want WYSIWYG until we're ready to add final formating to the document? Heck, MSWord has (had?) a "Word-Perfect compatible" command which allowed ex-WP users to use WP command in MSWord.
Let's face it - Apple took a *nix flavour and customised it so that even the grand-folks could use it.
A few weeks ago I took my Asus EeePC 4G which I've converted to the desktop style interface with me when I played a music festival. It ended up being used by several non-IT people for Net access over the course of the weekend (as well as serving as an iPod charging station), and none of them noticed that they were using Linux. One of them asked "Is that Vista? It doesn't look like my XP set-up."
The only machine that I've had with literally *everyone* able to sit down and use it with no pre-existing knowledge of the OS, was an Asus eee running Xandros. Even my mother, who won't use a mobile phone, could figure it out. Sure, I don't think it's great in terms of customisability - although eeeUbuntu takes care of that - but let's be consistent about what the target audience is.
As others have pointed out, normal users do not install their own Windows or Mac OSes - it's done by the OEM. When more OEMs install Linux with the correct drivers and sensible base packages (ie. not the pox that is MS Works, and all the AV that expires after 3 months), it will resemble a level playing field.
Many of the Linux distros have solved the usability, package range and look-and-feel "problems". Yes, it is incredibly customisable with too many options for the usual punter to deal with. And so? It's the system builders who should be packaging the systems correctly. How many would be able to make use of a barebones install of Windows and the full range of available peripheral device and software installation packages? Before it gets pwnd by malware, that is. Let's actually compare apples with apples.
@Vendicar Decarian: Ubuntu 6.06 sucked, I used it and it was awful. 7.04, 7.10, 8.04 all made HUGE improvements. I don't expect you to try 8.04, but honestly it's lots better. 6.06 really showed it's old-school Debian roots, it didn't seem to "plug'n'play" jack, or make anything seamless... newer versions do.
@Nick H:
What a crock. Windows is absolutely NOT easier to install. You get it installed, you have 16 color VGA, no ethernet, no sound support out of the box. On newer systems, you also have no USB and perhaps not even a bootable system (depending on how the SATA and IDE is feeling.) You can see my huge list of hardware I've installed Ubuntu onto in my previous post, all out of the box. The *entire* install: boot the live CD, click the installer on the desktop. Screen 1: language (defaults to English). 2: Time zone. 3: Keyboard layout (defaults to USA). 4: hard disk partitioning (defaults to "Guided" which just does the right thing for both blank disks and for disks with an OS already on them). 5: username and password. 6: Shows what you told it, and asks "are you sure". 7: watch the install go by. 8: reboot 9: install "ubuntu-restricted-extras", this adds java, flash, etc. in one shot -- but, if you don't, it'll ask to install flash, java, etc. for you the first time you need them! Where I work, I have this fully automated, the steps are 1) go in BIOS and set the boot order to floppy, CD, hard disk, netboot. 2) Plug into network. 3) Go work on other computers or take a break -- it does a fully unattended network install. If the install fails, the machine's probably faulty. If the machine's too old to netboot, pop a CD in, take a break -- the CD ejects when it's done.
As for the distro problem -- you're right up to a point. But, I think Ubuntu's helping -- I've had a few people actually ask about Ubuntu, and when I mention it's a version of Linux, they're like "What the heck's Linux?" To be clear, though, there's NOTHING wrong with lots of distros -- Ubuntu (and the Debian base it's based on) cherry-picks the nice stuff from them, as does SuSE. Most of the hundreds of distros, almost noone uses them, you don't have to know they exist unless you go looking for them.
@vincent himpe
Yeah I looked at Gos, it looked pants. They really should just put Ubuntu or even SuSe on there.
Internet browsing: Check.
Word docs: Check (OpenOffice 2.4 DOES support Office 2007 stuff.. Gos just has some out-of-date version of OpenOffice)
Excel: Check
HP Printer: Yes, it definitely has a driver for the multifuncs
Scan and fax: Don't know. I think it'll scan at least?
Photoshop Elements: Well, no, you'd use some other photo management setup.
Smartphone sync: Don't know, I haven't looked into it.
That at least gets you up to like 5 or so out of 7, without having to install a single app even. Scanner functionality and smartphone sync, I'm sure there's software about to do this -- don't whinge that Ubuntu isn't viable because it doesn't do 7 out of 7 out of the box, you know as well as I do Windows does 1 out of 7 (if you're willing to risk using IE) out of the box.
As for your other, essentially, demands:
Both "Get rid of 200 distros" and "Get rid of 400 GUIs". No. It's free software, if people want to write more, they can, and it's not your place to tell them not to. It's not a big deal though -- 1) most people use some few major distros, so it's not diluting users so ridiculously as you'd think. (It's nice to have a single-floppy rescue distro when you need it, but it's not for normal use). 2) Bugs flow upstream to "owners" of individual programs, then the fixed apps flow downstream to distros -- so, it's not like using all these distros slows down progress like you might think. 3) Just tell people "use Ubuntu" rather than "use Linux" and they won't be confused by choice. GUIs -- same thing..gnome and KDE are the main ones (the rest are niche.) And most newer distros, the default install doesn't even give a choice, so there's no confusion for the user. If GUIs were restricted to one, the OSX-style desktop effects would have never happened, they were implemented first in a spinoff window manager.
"Make a unified self deploying installer that works on ALL distros". It'd be nice. The rest about this needing that that breaks that, however, is the reason distros DON'T all use the same packaging setup -- the good ones DON'T break like that, and the other distros that use bad packaging setups refuse to change to use a better one. My solution, don't use the distros with bad packaging systems.
"Stop bickering about vi vs emacs and gnome vs kde in all the forums and
blogs" No, just don't read them then. Geeks will be geeks, vi versus Emacs has 20 or 30 years of..umm.. rich history I suppose. gnome versus KDE, I don't know why people care (I've used both and they're fine) but they do, so let them bicker. Gimp's not half-finished junk, and if you want to write an app, you can call it what you want -- don't tell others what to call their apps. Exchange, Outlook, Sharepoint, are not descriptive names by any stretch either.
"Get some serious software companies on board to write applications" Well, there's the catch-22 that Microsoft forces Windows onto every PC as much as possible, then pretend those are legitimate sales. They then use those numbers to "prove" everyone's running Windows. I'd LOVE some serious software companies to write Linux apps. Your example though.. Microsoft Office for Mac is in SERIOUS trouble right now, they did not port VBScript etc. to the Intel Mac version of Office.. apparently it's such a sloppy mess it simply is not portable at all anymore (if Office is "ported" to Linux, it'll be ported by wrapping it in Wine basically.)
Well, this post got pretty long, but OK....
It makes me feel dirty, what I'm about to say (defending Microsoft)....but you're not making a fair comparison.
For a start you missed out the steps of having to download or obtain a copy of OpenOffice....free or not you still have to download it from somewhere. Then you compared it to an install of a completely different product. How about describing the install process of OpenOffice on a Windows based PC? Oh, that's right, it's just a case of double-clicking the install file and following the prompts.
The unfortunate fact is that Linux is still a niche product, at least in the terms of the home PC market. Most of the target audience are almost completely PC illiterate, and don't have the competency to work with Linux. I don't see that changing in the near future, and that is why they are unlikely to sell many PC's with a Linux install.
"some packages are just too much pain to use. GIMP and OpenOffice come to mind. Did someone purposefully go out of their way to make them as un-windows as possible?"
Uh, well an earlier poster told the writers off for aping windows and failing. Here you're saying that they MUST ape windows.
Freaking strange...
"i have seen linux desktops where on window 1 the close button is left top , and on window two it is right top ... can we please keep things simple ? "
And why is it that the close box on windows changed from XP to Vista and YOU SAID NOTHING???
Mac OS has the close in a different place. Maybe people like them in a different place and, while there are lots of distros (unless we get rid of them all as per "user demand" here) you can pick one that acts like Vista or XP, Mac or Amiga, Win95 or Dos.
Calling it "Imagine" wouldn't work: there are already several commercial apps called that. You wouldn't know that Firebird was going to be the name of Firefox but *a database app* called Firebird threatened them with a lawsuit for having the same name.
Irrespective of whether the trademark was valid across different applications.
And nobody now needs to go to the command line, except to do things they could not do on Windows either.
PS Change your surname. It's stupid. Something like "Smith". It doesn't cost anything, just change the name so people won't wonder how to pronounce what you're currently called.
What? It's none of my freaking business? Well turn that around, boy.
All of Vincent Himpe's points were valid, yet like a typical Linux zeolot you don't want to listen.
Until the Linux community starts taking constructive critisim on-board it'll never produce an OS that can compete with Windows or OSX. Let's face it, if Linux can't make significant gains against the disaster that is Vista, then it really isn't "ready for the desktop".
So, Henry, why don't you do the Linux cause a favour and go buy yourself a Mac?
The comments about Linux not bering ready fro the average user are 100%. People are replying with "No, that's wrong. I installed Windows, Ubuntu, Exchange...." YOU are not average users.
The AVERAGE USER wants to buy their PC, switch it on and have it work. No bullshit. They want to buy a new sound card and have it work. No Bullshit. They want to fit a video card, and have it work. Fit a TV card and have it work. Fit a whatever and just have it work. Linux CANNOT do this. Sorry, but its can't.
In the Linux world you have to read under the hood, understand the vagaries of the file structure and hack a way at the script files. This is totally unacceptable to the AVERAGE USER who, at most, will be able to check a few option buttons and then press "OK".
I do not (yet) use Linux in anger but I'd dicked around with it. It has come a long way in recent years and that advance it to be applauded. But for the AVERAGE USER (read: non-IT, basic consumer) it is still far too tech heavy. I have no doubt that specialised/stripped down versions are in use every day (e.g. PVRs and what have you); but all the distros available today are still to clunky for the AVERAGE USER. e.g. when I installed Windows it auto-detects my mouse and sorts it out. In Linux I had to hack away at a script and use trial and error. Unacceptable.
I was about to order a Dell with ubuntu linux on it. Next week sometime.
I may not now if the top poster of this thread is correct. The dell I want to get without the MS tax , dell still pay ms? That seems totally wrong to me. I demand an alternative - competition laws and all that.
Sparking the ps3/xbox/wii debate. This is why I hate xbots. MS are far far far more evil than sony. MS are halliburton part 2. Regardless of how good/bad the box is - I hate M$. My friend at work used to think like this , he was an apple fan. Now he has an xbox he is converted to a Bill Gates fan.
"The AVERAGE USER wants to buy their PC, switch it on and have it work. "
That is what Linux will do if pre-installed (just like Windows).
Now, two months later and what's changed? Your antivirus signature needs updating.
If you're on Windows.
Not really "have it work", is it?
"when I installed Windows it auto-detects my mouse and sorts it out. In Linux I had to hack away at a script and use trial and error. Unacceptable."
What is unacceptable is that is complete and utter bollocks.
Linux accepts the mouse automatically.
In fact, if you take your mouse out and plug it into another USB slot, Linux continues without a pause. Windows? Well, it has to stop, look for the driver for the mouse, install it for this new USB port and THEN starts working.
"In the Linux world you have to read under the hood, understand the vagaries of the file structure and hack a way at the script files."
Compared to the other one, this one isn't as unacceptable. It's still wrong. Or at least as wrong as under Windows. After all, if you put your game in your DVD drive on E: when it was installed on your DVD RW drive on F:, your game will often complain that the game DVD isn't in the drive.
"For a start you missed out the steps of having to download or obtain a copy of OpenOffice."
Only under windows or in specialist distros (like Puppy or DSL which are for small, low-power machines, rather like Windows CE was. Now get your HL2 installed on your WinCE device...).
For Red Hat, Fedora, SuSE, Ubuntu, Debian, ... Open Office is on the DVD and you don't have to download it. In most cases, it is installed by default (unless you don't install a GUI desktop).
Why do anti-Linux Shills make so much arrant nonsense up???
"when I installed Windows it auto-detects my mouse and sorts it out. In Linux I had to hack away at a script and use trial and error."
I have a Windows Intellimouse that was immediately recognized by Ubuntu 8.04 and all the buttons and scroll wheel work perfectly. To be fair, Ubuntu 7.10 didn't automagically recognize the extra buttons/wheel. Although I had to remap the extra buttons on my keyboard as BTC didn't provide a linux driver. Thankfully, the remapping was identical to the one I've used in every game I've played so far... press the button for Media Player, Volume Up, Volume Down, Browser... click "OK" in the end and that was it.
<Sigh>
And there we have it.
Do us all a favour Mark, go read, then re-read Simpson's "Linux Therapy" comment. Keep reading it and thinking about it for however long it takes to sink in.
There are so many people out there with so much common sense to bring to bear to help you and who'd just love to see you come good, but unfortunately, to you they're all f*cktards whose only decent opinion are the ones you endorse.
"Useability is not a barrier, it's a red herring. If useability was an issue, we'd all be using Macs." - Lintard
And that my little children is why Linux/Unix has been a loser for the last 30 years.
Lintards are seemingly uncapable of learning
Why all this going on about installing the OS? I know loads of Windows users and not one of them (other than professional engineers) has installed the OS. Very few of them would even consider doing so. People want to buy something that works out of the box.
Apart from that, inertia is a gigantic problem. When I got my first PC (pre-Windows) it was important for me to get something that I could get advice on from people I knew. And where in the UK are the local councils offering free Linux-based "get started in computing" courses? For all the people trying to get the masses on the Interweb, Computers=Windows.
Why? That post was complete and utter drivel.
Should I exhort you to go to the Xenu site? The Flat Earthers' Society?
No, I read it and it made no sense. It was a completely negative and erroneous rant against Linux and had no worthwhile content at all.
Therapy? Only in so far as chopping your head off stops your toothache.
A few requests:
". . .product, which lists the available packages by names and/or
categories and/or keywords (etc) with a description of what each
package does."
In Ubuntu, you can click "Applications>Add/Remove" and it gives you a nice clean list of categories with apps that you can browse through, complete with icons for all the apps and a 1 line description of it's purpose. Put a tick in the box and it installs automatically.
2) Installation of packages should create an appropriate icon
on the desktop or item in the appropriate menu list.
Oh come on, 90 percent of them do that. The ones that don't are generally obscure little trinkets that haven't been actively developed for years. Anyway, if you install using the method above then you will always get an icon. At least it's better than 'doze where the setup process goes and makes a folder on the start menu called "Name Of Developer" and then puts all the icons in there. Gee, that's helpful, thanks for that "Crap Software Developers Inc."
And it should include an easy "uninstall" option for when
you've realised you've installed the wrong package.
Go back to Applications>Add/Remove and untick.
3) a pre-configured version of Wine or equivalent.
Not sure what you are asking for here. On my default install, I double click an exe and it installs. Sure, not all apps work, but many do. Wine, by it's very nature, is always going to be hit and miss
4) I perfectly agree with some of the comments - some packages
are just too much pain to use. GIMP and OpenOffice come to
mind. Did someone purposefully go out of their way to make
them as un-windows as possible?
OK, so you don't like gimp and OO. Fine. But thats got nothing to do with Linux. Adobe and MS could make versions of their apps for Linux if they wanted to, it's not Linux's fault that they won't.
Let's face it - Apple took a *nix flavour and customised it so
that even the grand-folks could use it.
That's just inane. Look at your own points 1-4.
1) Apple don't provide an app repository from which you can install apps AT ALL.
2) When you do install an app, apple don't create an icon on your menu or desktop (that is up to the app provider, just like it is on Windows and Linux.
3) Apple don't provide wine, either pre-configured or not.
4) Apple don't provide you with Photoshop or Office, Adobe and MS CHOOSE to support them on that platform, and by all accounts the latest Office on mac is not so crash hot either.
So, what you have done here is list a whole lot of criteria where Linux allegedly fails, only to present apple as the supposed gold standard when they don't pass your criteria either.
Try to engage your central cortex next time you put hand to keyboard, OK?
My experience is that Windows has had far more testing on unusual configurations and installs better. Linux tries to be too clever and fails.
At least OpenBSD or similar doesn't try to be clever. It Just Works. A few questions (yes, reasonably technical ones) and then it generally just sits and does its own thing.
Linux? First most of the distributions try to boot into graphical mode - which might fail (try doing it on VirtualPC - not a rare configuration. It doesn't support 24bit colour). It doesn't detect that it's failed, it doesn't offer alternatives, you have to hack config files yourself.
Once it's finally installed, on many installations it's not obvious how to install software, some of the software respositaries appear not to work at all (I think it was a version of Mandriva that claimed its own repository didn't exist).
XP? Vista? They support pretty much everything. I've never seen a system where USB isn't supported, and frequently it boots into a high resolution 3D accelerated mode - not 640x480. (Granted it won't be the best driver, but it will work).
Finding decent software that's complete and stable is time consuming and prone to error on Linux. In many ways it falls between having vast numbers of resources (Windows) or having only one or two well informed ones (OS/2 when it was still alive). There are decent Linux sites on the Internet, but the distributions really aren't highlighting them effectively.
Linux has come a long way in the last 16 years, but really it's still not quite there yet.
most seem to be closed source!
thier web sites are down or empty, with no content!
if they opened them up, we might see them increase sales
of instead of the adverts of unhackable (by obscurification)
thier software is out of date, with lots of errors in not only the OS but the setup of the defaults of the software. (anyone speak chinese???)
I bought a CnM maplin notebook last week(£180 inc silly case), i took it back the next day.
No updates(just patches, cos the installed software is bugged to hell) No alternative software available. no easy way to get a compiler to the CPU they use and the install extension is incompatible with everything available?
WAP anyone?
you cant even get a POST/BIOS screen up before they boot thier mashed gnome variant.
so installing a alternative OS is impossible(unless someone has managed to hack one)(good luck)
(if i could get one running opera and thunderbird(eudora) for mail i'd be happy, along with few other apps would be real nice) even usb/wi-fi printer support would be a nice addition.
These notebooks could be realy hot, they are the perfect size, and with a bit of tweaking thier specs could be boosted without much loss of performance.
If they are not opened up fully to deveolpers, then they are going to become roadkill left in the wake of the M$ monster.
as it is my only option is to go for a Eee of some flavour, just a pity they are so much more expensive.
But I had to support it. Outlook, the Vista OS in general, having to buy software yet never owning it.
...and then 1 or 2 things that just annoyed me, the xbox 360 controller for windows drivers, and their own updates not working in SP3.
So I went to ubuntu and there is a steep learning curve if you want to do anything beyond just working.
But as an end user it is straight forward and out the box.
I have since got a ubuntu, Mandriva and opensuse triple boot and struggled with the various differences, but they are pretty much the same when you get down to it.
The only differences I found were the front end which is either gnome or KDE and the way it lays onto the disk (LVM or grub) and that is no use to the end user.
Using add / remove is straight forward but not as easy as a double click.
Marketing is therefore the only real problem I see, and M$ buying it's way into the market of everything. I want an M1000 with SDD and linux but only the XP and HDD are available in the UK, that speaks volumes for the market.
Actually if you read it correctly (metaphores and all) it talks as more about the linux evangelists and their attitutudes as it does about the various aspects of the operating system itself.
Any normal person reading this comment thread and any other like it across the internet shall draw the same conclusions. Linux fanboys need to wake up and communicate with people as oppose to spout their demented rhetoric.
I think you could do with some operating system orientated therapy, I really do.
As an aside people keep babbeling about buying ms office and photoshop when on linux they can use gimp and open office. I gotta burst your bubble kids - you can use gimp and open office on windows too (I shit you not), but you can also use photoshop and ms office if you need them instead.
Shocking I know.
On purchasing a EEE PC for the wife, and getting permission to purchase it
New EEE PC Linux - Out of the Box
BBC iplayer - does not work, needs flash - not an automated install
ITV Catch Up - does not work, needs Silverlight - not suppported
Channel 4 on demand - does not work, needs Media Player 11 - not supported
Itunes - does not work - not supported
XP/Vista PC - Still on the desk at home
BBC iplayer - yes after automated install
ITV Catch Up - yes after automated install
Channel 4 on demand - yes after automated install
itunes yes on automated install
hurrah, I gain a new gadget and she loses out ( for the moment )
For the non technically minded and the patient, how many EEE PC's ( Linux ) have either sailed back to the place of purchase, or have been 'filed' with the breadmaker and the foot spa.
Many people are now being introduced to Linux by the ultra-cheap Chinese SCCs.
The killer here is the lack of x86 compatibility. Lots of people will be put off Linux by the fact that most "Linux" software won't run on their "Linux" computer.
It's time for a serious fork: we must acknowledge that "Linux" as we know it is an x86 OS, and ports to other architectures are not truly Linux. Either that or Linux needs to become truly cross-platform -- but that's never going to happen.
Unless Linux = Linux = Linux, "customers" will never be confident in what they are getting, and they'll never "buy" in.
Yes, all the AC's with the out of date FUD and copious wailing.
For the joe sixpacks who might stumble across this thread, if linux was really as bad as they paint, how come so many people with decent IT skills flock to it? How come manufacturers such as Dell and ASUS are going against their Microsoft masters and installing it for consumers?
It's just so funny to see them come here, some of them fresh from trolling usenet with their sad bile and try and tell everyone linux is soooo bad. And yet, all their issues are generally shown to be uninspired FUD generally within minutes. Why do they persist? Some might think a company with lots to lose if Linux takes off on the desktop pays them to poison discussion pages like this. A company for whom the term 'astroturfing' was coined.
An lo, they will retort, that I'm a 'zealot' for suggesting that rather than continue to pay a convicted monopolist for your operating system, that you might like check out a open and free distribution such as Unbuntu. NOOOOOO, they will shriek, it's too different, too hard, copies windows too much. All simply aimed at stopping you from getting hold of a live CD and having an hours play with a different operating system, because they fear that you might like it and, shock horror, install it over windows.
Too true.
Linux doesn't do what I want, so I don't use it. *shrug* That's about it.
How many Pocket PC's with Windows CE/PocketEdition/Whatever will run their "Windows" software???
You ignore that, don't you.
So even second time through Simpsons' post passed you by? Mark, go back and read it some more, pause for though as you finish it and try to find a little empathy with all those people who'd love to be your friend really.
So you didn't get it? You thought it was drivel? Read and re-read it!
Keep banging the rocks together fella... ;-)
And the Windows Shrills are eloquently showing that they are SHIT SCARED of a "hobby" OS overcoming a multi-billion-pound behemoth. So much so that they make any old shit up in the hope that someone will be scared off or predisposed to see the problem and ignoring that they get the same (or worse) problem on Windows.
BSD????
What are you smoking, kid???
With Linux there are FAR MORE drivers for FAR MORE products than for BSD. And the only reason why Windows has more drivers is where the manufacturer produces a driver disk. Mind you, find a driver disk for a GeForce MX440 for Windows Vista...
Now: new EEE PC Windows - out of the Box:
No DVD playback.
No MP3.
No AAC.
No iTunes.
New EEE PC Linux - Out of the Box
> BBC iplayer - does not work, needs flash - not an automated install
Yes, you are right and if you look in the back catalogue of Register articles you will see the Free Software campaign against the BBC supporting only Microsoft which led to Flash and a (new) promise to get downloadable working for Linux.
Flash is proprietary but is a one-click install for those that want to, then there's Gnash.
> ITV Catch Up - does not work, needs Silverlight - not suppported (sic)
> Channel 4 on demand - does not work, needs Media Player 11 - not supported
I think you'll find that project Kangeroo has been reported to the Competition Commission.
When the playing field is level the issues will be different. Time is on Free Software's side and you will be free too.
> Itunes - does not work - not supported
Yes, of course, but let's take a moment to think "why?" Could it be part of that general lock-in to our products used by both Microsoft and Apple?
But there are alternatives including DRM free music from commercial providers and wonder MP3 management systems such as Amarok.
Never going anywhere???
What about the Asus laptops that don't need booting to play media? Uses Linux on the BIOS. What about the top500 list of computing power? Dominant linux. Rednerfarms (Disney, ILM, Pixar et al) used to be IRIX shops. Now Linux rules.
Windows is so drop dead simple in supporting hardware that a brand spanking new Inspiron puked on a Dell support requested reinstall after it kept puking running Eclipse, but Fedora Core 9 Installed and Works...
Good grief Niall, either you are the most magnificently sarcastic bastard on the face of the planet or monumentally befuddled by the Redmond Kool-aid.
I can run Linux on a MIPS processor, an ARM processor and a PowerPC processor (just to name a few)
Can you say the same for Windows?
No, I thought not.
I don't suppose I could persuade you to cull those long URL's in the AC post above? They're stretching the page width here to 150% *and* causing all the comments to flow into the blue bar on the right, black on blue is nigh on unreadable ;)
Pretty please? Ta!
Dead birdy cause it's killed your page layout ;)
@Mark
"And why is it that the close box on windows changed from XP to Vista and YOU SAID NOTHING???:
Gnome desktop . 2 programs open. simultaneous on same machine: Windows look different , buttons are different , menu bars are even different, different locations. Can we have some uniformity. I don't care. For a lot of people it is a problem. Where is the close button ...
Here is another problem : installers not making a shortcut. I installed an ubunutu program (i think it was etherape) through the nice graphical interface. After installation : where the heck is it ... and how do i uninstall ... can we have some uninstallers ?
When i finally found it , i had to do some editing in some config file to get it to work.
Take apache for example. Will someone please write a nice graphical installer and configurator , instead of archaic text file editing to get it to work ?. Everyime i need to mess with it something breaks.
All i want is a friggin file and webserver that can take automatic backups of my pc's on the network , centralise my pictures, video, music and documents and serves a webpage so that my family can look at my pictures. I did the ubuntu LAMP installation. After installation you stare at a black screen with a blinking cursor... not very friendly are we ?
It took a full day and a lot of web reading to get only the webportion up and running. I finally gave up and installed the minimalistic gnome so i could at least use a mouse and have a workable texteditor instead of 'vi'. It's almost 2009 you know ?
After fiddling with the Ubuntu thing for over a year to try to get my various other devices to work (Medialounge , roku soundbridge, Media Center Pc,) i finally gave up. Last week I shelled out 170 dollar for Windows home Server licence , Popped in the CD click next next next , i agree , punch in the 12 digit keycode , wait half an hour for the install to complete and everything works. And i can even get to my files from anywhere in the world. It comes with a free dyns forwarder. It snapshots my 3 other computers automatically. If i need more storage space : plug in a harddisk and click 'Join to the storage pool'. Done.
It doesn't get simpler than that.
And as for your fascination with my last name : You are just jaleous that you don't come from a very large Belgian family. Drank any Belgian beer lately ? You should try it. It opens your perspective.
@henry Wertz : Last time i played with openoffice ( 6 months ago ) it could not execute any of my excel macros ... pretty frustrating.
I have to be interoperable with people that use microsoft office. ( that is until some other program becomes the dominant bussiness spreadsheet )
As for your distro comment. I agree, diversity is good, and people are free to develop what hey want . But can we first complete the ones there are before we fork more ? All this stuff is in perpetual state of development. There are more 'eye candy' developers than application developers. Whenever someone doesn't like a feature of program 'x' they fork it, make 'y' and tweak it a little. Firefox , iceweasel and some other 'clones come into mind... and then z and 25 others pop up too.
I had a comment a few weeks ago about that cube spin desktop. ( forgot what it is called ) Why do you run this desktop manager ? This one is much better because you can spin your applications on a cube ... Unless you can give me a real 3d monitor ( and even then i fail to see the point ) big whoop. All i need is a basic windowing system that lets me do things with the machine. It's like that aero thing on Vista . On the only machine i have with Vista, i turned that off , and reverted to the XP look and feel. Basic simple GUI that is pretty much uniform across applications. (unless you have some half whack developer that insists on rendering his own controls.
Anyway. Everyone is free to run whatever OS / dekstop / app he wants. I don;t care. I am happy with Win XP Pro and the applications i use daily. I dabbled with Linux ( I had red hat , Suse and Ubuntu. ) and gave up. Too complicated. 20 years ago i handcoded in TASM a TSR mouse driver for dos. and i could recant the option table for int13 and 21 in the bios by heart. I still have the two 720K floppies with linux 0.89 on it. Hey look it even hase 4 more floppies with X-windows and you can run x-eyes !
Now .. i just want a button to click that does something that makes my life easier. Let the computer do the boring work. That is what those machines are built for. The computer has eveolved froom ' a tinkertoy' to a 'tool'.
Take a set of screwdrivers.
Some people have an odball collection of different brands, shapes, handle styles, old rusty ones , ones with a chipped blade , the one that falls apart but they can't let go off because it has 'sentimental value', sometimes they use a penny or a dime . Some people (very few) make their own screwdrivers .. Some die hard's bicker days about brand x being better then brand y, instead of putting the screw in the wall. Some like the yellow handles , some like the red handles. Some buy a set because they like the box it comes in.
Me ? I'll get the electric one (preferrably the pre-charged one).. It requires the least effort on my part, it puts the screw in in no time, and i can finally enjoy looking at the painting i made, that now hangs from it.
It just seems to me like some of the the linux die-hards would use their screwdrivers as paintbrushes, just to prove it can be done .. and the real hard core ones would rather nail the screwdriver to the wall. and look at that.
"....but you're not making a fair comparison."
Oh yes I am!
"For a start you missed out the steps of having to download or obtain a copy of OpenOffice"
I didn't leave out any steps, obtaining a copy of the software is taken care of by the computer (as it should). It's called "innovation", I beleive.
"Then you compared it to an install of a completely different product."
That would be "equivalent product".
" How about describing the install process of OpenOffice on a Windows based PC? "
Add two steps "Download OpenOffice, double click installer". Still 8 steps and $500 easier.
"Most of the target audience are almost completely PC illiterate, and don't have the competency to work with Linux."
Overall, Linux is easier than Windows, especially for beginners. The problem lies in the informal support network that only has MS Windows experience. MS Windows experience is so hard won that who'd willingly to let it go?
(Note that my kids used to prefer my laptop running Linux over the household desktop running MS Windows until we got a Mac.)
As far as I can see, the major complaint against OpenOffice is that "it's not the same as MS Office" and that against Linux is "it's not the same as MS Windows". Of course their different! If they were the same then we'd all be stuck with MS Windows, wouldn't we?
Another Windows/Linux flamewar with hardly anything relevant being said.
I'm really, really looking forward to the point where there is a viable alternative for the home user to Windows. Linux isn't it, yet.
Because, despite what several hysterical mouth-foamers are saying, the vast majority of people can simply walk into a Staples, buy a copy of Office for *much* less that $500, load the disk, install the software with a click and (Vista users only spend another 45 minutes trying to register the thing and having to set up a passport account but hey, that's Vista, doesn't happen on XP, which should have been a clarion call to SOME Linux vendor out there years ago), and you are up and running.
Someone mentioned GIMP. Gimp. The benchmark for maddeningly unintuitive intefaces that is thrown up time and time again as a "viable" alternative to well-established packages like Photoshop (the full-blown thing). I've had people patiently explain to me that the *problem* in Madison Avenue is that all the graphic designers for some reason refuse to dump a package that they have used for years so they can move into the Linuxy goodness of GIMP. When I suggest that perhaps the evangelical effort would be better spent lobbying hard for a Linux port of Photoshop, I am condescendingly told that I don't understand the issue. Riiiiight.
Suse. I was enthusiastic when I saw this in action, demonstrated by some eager young things who were salivating at the business market assembled before them. Like many others there I was slightly *less* impressed when the tech lead for office systems integration sardonically related that "one person had baulked in using Open Office because of lack of pivot table support, so we put it in even though we don't see why anyone would use it". Once again a know-nothing-outside-his-narrow-field techie blew off his own size ten and he didn't even realise what he'd done. I wanted to grab him by the neck and scream "Geat a f*cking clue and do some research, dimwit!".
But then he went on to say that he couldn't see why a firm in New York would want digital camera support either (Goodbye medical market, newspaper market, insurance market and those are just the three waiting at the top of Mr Head).
What puzzles me is that it is largely the same crowd that bleat over the horror of having web-site choices forced on them as being the very anathema of what the modern computer user experience should consist of, that then turn round and say "Well, you should stop using whatever tool you've been doing business with for x years and switch to <linux "equivalent"> just for the pleasure of using Linux". When the inevitable list of shortcomings of that "equivalent" mounts too high for them to answer, they generally fall back on "what do you expect, it's free?" which, of course, is the death of what they're trying to argue for. Can't use *that* one in front of the Board of Directors.
Until the major third party software vendors start producing for native Linux, there will be no sea change in the way people in the street view their computers.
Stop whining about how the other guy doesn't do it right. Make the alternative a better choice FOR THE USER.
I've been building a media centre over the past few days. I thought I'd try installing linux on it with MythTV - it's free and I though that if I could get it working then that'll be cool, if not then I could always pick up a copy of Windows. I chose the Mythbuntu Ubuntu / MythTV combination. Installation went extreemly smoothly, and only took about 15-20 mins or so. And then it just worked. I didn't have to spend another few hours installing video drivers, sound drivers, anti-virus, patches, service packs. Just 20 mins on a blank system to fully working media centre. TV card, remote control, LCD fornt panel all working. I have yet to type a single letter into the command line. It *really* could not have been easier.
...not an end in itself.
I primarily use Ubuntu, and really like it, but it's not quite desktop ready yet. It's really come a long way (since my last Linux experience in the late 90s), but it's not quite ready. Like others have said, DVD playback isn't out of the box (yes, I *know* you can install decss or whatever), and WMVs don't play well. Yes, I *know* they're a MS-specific format, but I'm interested in the content, not format.
People (including me) watch to check email, listen to music, edit photos, watch DVDs and do things with their computer. The OS should really be invisible. Linux does have enormous hurdles to overcome, since the market is Windows-dominated, but that's the standard by which it's going to be judged...
"Me ? I'll get the electric one (preferrably the pre-charged one).. It requires the least effort on my part, it puts the screw in in no time, and i can finally enjoy looking at the painting i made, that now hangs from it."
Unless the torque isn't enough. Then you're fucked.
Or if the battery holds charge enough for fifteen minutes use.
Or it uses a propriatory screw head (so that you have to take it to an authorised dealer).
"And why is it that the close box on windows changed from XP to Vista and YOU SAID NOTHING???:
Gnome desktop . 2 programs open. simultaneous on same machine: Windows look different , buttons are different , menu bars are even different, different locations. Can we have some uniformity. I don't care. For a lot of people it is a problem. Where is the close button ..."
I notice that, even though you *included the quote* failed to answer it.
Vista changed the close button.
No noise from you.
Try this: Windows. Office 97. Where's the Preferences (language, etc)? Now Windows. Office 2000. Where's the Preferences (language, etc)? Now Windows. Office 2003. Where's the Preferences (language, etc)? Now Windows. Office 2007. Where's ANYTHING?
Install Windows Media Player.
Everything is in a non-standard place and looks like no other Windows application.
"You come in here every few months and say that you want to make more friends...."
Nope, Linux doesn't say that (even under those conditions where you are talking metaphorically.
"You go to the party and you expect everyone to love you, just because you are there. If they don't tell you how great you are, you get angry and start calling people names, knock things over, cause a scene, and storm out."
This sounds like Microsoft (cf Brazil, Massachusetts, ISO, etc).
"Then you come in here and start complaining on how bad they treated you, and say you are never going back."
Ballmer: "Linux is a cancer" "Linux stole 235 of our patents" "Linux stole our code"
"You kept insisting to play linopoly, but they didn't know what that was, because you just made it up yesterday."
cf Hasbro, Scrabble and Scrabulous. IP tells us we can't MAKE a program called monopoly.
"When Joe asked what the problem was, you started screaming "JOE SIX PACK", "JOE SIX PACK" "
Ballmer: "Developers Developers Developers" and "Linux is a cancer"
"When none of the guests at Mr. WalMart's party would talk to you"
Wallmart still sell Linux.
"You always tell me what great friends you are with Mr. R.P.M. and Mr. D.E.B. But just the other day, Mr. R.P.M. was in here and he said that he saw you and Mr. D.E.B. out together. He went over to say hi, but you pretended you didn't even know him... You told him that you didn't remember him... That you might know him through Mr. Package, but that you wouldn't even talk to him if Mr. Package wasn't at the table with you and Mr. D.E.B. That's just crazy."
Talking of crazy!!! What the FUCK is this about???
"While you my friend, are an arrogant, prick."
Assertion more appliccable to Microsoft: cf "ODF can't do what we need it to do in Microsoft Office". THAT is arrogance. Their ONE VERSION of a program is the be-all and end-all of what an Office Suite MUST do?
yes, the retard was chewing on the whacky baccy and you french-kissing got a huge hit of the mind-bending chemicals too.
BSD doesn't have as wide ranging support as Linux, but in my experience the install is more solid - precisely because it doesn't try to be too fancy when it's not up to the task. I'd rate Slackware on Linux as one of the few distributions not making the flash over functionality mistake.
Niall is completely right about non x86 Linux - read carefully what he's saying. A non trivial amount of software that works fine under x86 Linux either doesn't work on non Linux unixes or fails to compile when it finds anything other than x86 architecture.
Sure, the kernel works, and bits of gnu might work (don't make any bets on gdb, for instance..) but many other bits of software probably won't (or haven't you seen the situation where you run a ./configure and it has no knowledge of the architecture, even given an up to date configure file?) . Given that situation it's better to productise 'cut down x86 ubuntu that works on an eee' to a friendly name that means it's easy for people to check compatibility rather than trying to get 'Linux' software which may not actually work.
You're a poor student of history Goat Jam. Can it be said that Windows runs on MIPS, ARM and PowerPC. Well, yes, you can say that. XP, Windows 2003, Vista and Windows 2008 run on x86, x86 64bit and Itanium. NT4 ran on Alpha, MIPS, PowerPC (PReP). Windows CE runs on a shedload of platforms...
"...then turn round and say "Well, you should stop using whatever tool you've been doing business with for x years and switch to <linux "equivalent"> just for the pleasure of using Linux"
Bingo. This seems to describe the majority (or at least the most vocal) of linux advocates - myself included!
But it's not enough of a reason for everyone else.
h264 support is shite aswell.
Jeez those are some lovely artifacts and a nice consistant green.
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