back to article Eurofighter at last able to drop bombs, but only 'austerely'

Some of the Royal Air Force's new Eurofighter Typhoon jets have today been announced as capable of delivering weapons against ground targets, in addition to their initial role of air-to-air combat. This has been reported as meaning that the already horrifyingly expensive, long-delayed planes are "fully combat ready". However, …

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  1. Jeff Rowse

    Are you lot for real?

    Please make sure you have your facts right before commenting:

    Typhoon has to carry bombs because the MoD realised we no longer need a pure fighter at this time, and they want to be able to drop them in the right place instead of just chucking them off and hoping to get something worhtwhile.

    Apache is NOT the all-singing, all-dancing aircraft some people here seem to think. It does not carry enough chaingun ammunition for prolonged use and the rocket pod control links are vulnerable to rifle and RPG fire; they don't work if the pilot cannot fire them.

    RAF Harrier IIs DO carry "big guns" - 30mm Aden cannon in underbelly pods. We have one each side, the Yanks have one 25mm cannon with the ammunition in the pod on the other side.

    They replace flat plates as part of the "Lift Improvement Devices" hardware on the two outer fuselage stations, which are not capable of carrying bombs.

    Hawks do make decent ground-attack aircraft - just ask the East Timorese. They also make lovely targets to anyone armed with surface-to-air missiles - unlike the East Timorese (but which are something Al Queda have in large numbers).

    Canards are NOT "the training wheels of the sky"; they are more effective control surfaces than sticking them at the back of the airframe and calling them tailplanes' - because they haven't got to cope with the "dirty" air coming off the wings, they can be made smaller and lighter.

    I could go on, but me lunch is ready...

  2. fireman
    Jobs Horns

    F-22 export restrictions

    The F-22 has cost the US taxpayer is about £200 million per aircraft including development costs. Considering the reported capabilities of the F-22, this makes the Euorfighter look like a rip-off. Some one has been taking the EU taxpayers to the cleaners, there can be little doubt about that.

    Nevertheless, even though the RAF is due to buy/take delivery of the F-35 (the VSTOL version of the F-22), the RAF and anyone else for that matter can forget about buying a 'fully loaded' F-22.

    The US will NOT be exporting the full F-22 avionics suite in the near future. To note, the US aren't exporting the F-22 at all at the moment and when they do it will be an export version. The countries that do eventually buy the F-22 will be dependent on the US for maintenance and spares. A very important point.A bit like Argentina were dependent on the French for their exocet missiles in the falklands...remember that?

    My point is that we can't be buying F-22 because even if the US would let us purchase them we'd be dependent on them for the life cycle of the aircraft. I don't trust the United States. See Boeing Chinhook debacle. To be fair, I wouldn't trust Britain if I was another country.

    If we're to buy arms at all we need to be independent so that in times of conflict we can supply ourselves and not be dependent of the whims of a nation that might not like/agree with what we're doing. Otherwise we really are a 52nd state (or whatever). The French have done it without North Sea oil (see their rather independent nuclear strike capabilities). Why haven't we?

    Therefore using eurofighter as an example, although obviously far too expensive for what it is, it is still the right direction to take. Divorce from the US and anyone else frankly. Did I mention the Boeing Chinook example? Oh dear. If it wasn't for that US arms manufacturer boeing being allowed to take the UK MOD for a ride and then some, that paratrooper leader would have had his 4 chinhooks.

    Steve job because he's a complete ****

  3. cdgp

    to Craig Graham

    "My view is Europe needs to retain sufficient capability that it costs a foreign power to attack us or something of ours.....That foreign power could be the US or China or someone else"

    As nice as it is that Europe is starting to work together, and I do think the EU is a good thing, I think the chances of the U.S. attacking the U.K. (or any European nation) are far less than one European country attacking another.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    Typhoon actually does have a place

    I'm an ex-RAF engineering officer, so I have some credentials here. And in my opinion Typhoon does have a place, albeit the cost overruns are painful. Firstly to deal with the cost, the US have spent a lot more per plane on previous development projects (take stealth for example). Unfortunately, when you are the first people using a new jet, and you filter in all the development costs of that jet, it seems expensive. Take a look again in 10 years when a bunch of other people have bought the jet, and the development costs have been spread around a bit more.

    Now, look at the capabilities of the jet. Eurofighter/Typhoon was always designed to be a multi-role aircraft. Although the mistakes of the Tornado (F3 not really that great) meant that they pushed hard to get a decent modern fighter. Typhoon is definitely a decent modern fighter. Right from the start, Typhoon was supposed to replace both the Tornado F3 and the Jaguar. The Jaguar was essentially used as a bomber more than anything else, so the Typhoon was always needed multi-role. The Typhoon does not replace the Tornado GR4 though, so we still have a deep penetration bomber capability. Now, many people have claimed in recent years that we don't need a modern fighter in the RAF. I have to point out that these people don't have a clue what they are talking about. In a number of the wars that Britain has fought in living memory we have needed fighters. We suffered greatly in the Falklands War because the only fighters we had were a handful flying off through-deck cruisers (rather than real fighters off an aircraft carrier). In Gulf War 1 if Saddam had actually used his air force rather than flying it all to Iran, we would have had a much harder time in the first weeks of the war. Saddam had over 500 modern aircraft that were perfectly capable of mixing it up with Allied aircraft. We were lucky there, and our luck might well run out with North Korea, Iran, or anyone else we pick a fight with in the next 10-20 years.

    Now, the cry these days seems to routinely be, "Buy American." Unfortunately, this isn't such a great cost saving as it might seem. One of the most important things to remember here is that America does not sell top end avionics fits to anyone, including it's allies. Anyone who has worked with, or studied aircraft will tell you that the avionics fit in modern battle is the single most important thing. Since weapons delivery these days is usually stand-off, the avionics fit is more important than say agility in a fighter or the ability to fly undetected in a bomber. I've watched exercises where Tornado F3s have annihilated American top end aircraft simply because at the time the F3 avionics fit was better (JTIDS in particular). Despite the fact that the F3 has the turning circle of a battleship. If we went and bought American for our key air defence or bomber capabilities we would then spend vast amounts of money developing the avionics fit for them. The aircraft wouldn't look as great then would it? The avionics fit in Eurofighter is outstanding, we have paid a lot of money for it. It could be better in the air to ground role, something that I think will happen in Tranche 3. Finally, if you compare the cost of Eurofighter to the cost of buying an American jet, then developing our own avionics fit for it, the cost isn't that different.

    Now, in logistics roles (Hercules/A400M or Chinook etc.) the arguments not to buy American are far weaker. Here I would be happy if we did go out and buy the new Hercules and Chinook. It would help our troops a lot, and probably save us a little money. But again, in the long run, it wouldn't necessarily save as much as you think, since the Americans will fleece us on spares and upgrades.

  5. Jeff Rowse

    @Fireman

    Um, we're buying the F35B which is a STOVL version of the F35A, both of which are the ugly heap known previously as the Joint Strike Fighter (in yet another game of "call it a fighter and then hang bombs on it")

    Nothing at all to do with the F22 which is a much more expensive "Stealth" aircraft, and is not being offered for sale at this time.

    Unusually for me, I actually have to defend Boing over the Chinook saga. That was another cockup on behalf of our own MoD PE (Ministry of Defence Procurement Executive) in the same vein as the Nimrod AEW and various other "Ask for one thing, order something more complex and then keep adding Newtech to the spec whilst it's being built" projects (like Tornado, Typhoon, Astute, Type 45, Harrier, Nimrod MRA4, Merlin, Future Lynx, Watchkeeper, Rapier, Future Scout, Bowman... in fact, just about every project since the mid-80s!!)...

    Boing did offer to refit the Chinooks with the same gear as the American Chinooks have but MoDPE declined...

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @ Meanwhile, back in the spongy land of reality...

    "whilst the rest of Europe 'observes'"

    Think before you write crap will ya. The rest of europe arent just observing some of us have been there longer than you lot. We have been in helman all the time with the biggest contribution pr GPN and Population. So sod off you tea sipping git.

    I wonder why we bother being allied with cuntries like the Brits and the US all the do is complain about oone helping them. Well either that or shooting/bombing there allies.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Black Helicopters

    @N

    Chinooks have the disconcerting effect of setting off landmines due to the pressure generated by their rotors... one of the posthumous Royal Marine decorations won in Afghanistan was for some poor bastard killed during an ambush evac; he died from his wounds AFTER the fight because the Wocca could not land, having set off more mines and injuring more Bootnecks...

    More helicopters would help, but they are too vulnerable when used alone; we don't have enough cabs capable of the Escort role to protect them all, and Merlins cannot carry a decent self-protection squad, a medical squad *and* the casualties back home.

    Apache is a tank-killer; it does not fare too well in the up-close and personal ambush arena for a variety of reasons.

    We could do with more Lynx and Future Lynx but that'll never happen; Future Lynx will probably be dropped soon due to some REMF deciding we need to spend more money on shit back home (like more "anti"-discrimination propoganda, bigger payrises for MPs, more cash thrown at the NHS to make things look shiny while the medical staff get shafted again... need I go on?)

    Black helicopter, because the Army and Marines need as many helicopters as they can get.

  8. Steve Mann

    Bah!

    This "Eurofighter" is a waste of time and money! Let us return to tried and trusted, battle-proven airframes that proved thier worth time and again.

    We beat back the savage hun with the noble Spitfire, and gave them a bloody nose with the mighty Lancaster. Let the skies darken with their shapes once more as they take the Ordinance of British Democracy to our enemies!

    Chocks away!

  9. Stuart Van Onselen

    @Andy Bell

    I try to explain everything, and I write long screeds that no-one has the patience to read.

    I try to be concise, and I leave out vital info.

    Yeas, I realise that bombing Afghanistan back to the stone-age (very short trip) had UN sanction. And I realise much of the griping in Lewis's articles are about problems there, not in Iraq.

    But what I meant, was that if Blighty had not diverting so many resources to an illegal, unnecessary war resulting in hundreds of thousands of casualties, directly and indirectly, they'd be having a much better time of it in Afghanistan.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    the inside word

    I have a relative who worked on Typhoon... Even the engineers said that it'd be overpriced and outclassed long before it hit a runway - and that was said a few years ago. Typhoon is a political fighter - basically developed in order to keep EU aero design skills reasonably up to date.

    The same thing applies to many UK military projects sadly - we don't buy best performance, or even best value, just anything as long as the UK gets some investment. Anyone complaining about it should remember that the UK gov sadly sees all military personnel as essentially expendible. "They'll get what they're given". Eventually. And be grateful for that.

  11. ton

    well duh

    "Apache is NOT the all-singing, all-dancing aircraft some people here seem to think. It does not carry enough chaingun ammunition for prolonged use and the rocket pod control links are vulnerable to rifle and RPG fire; they don't work if the pilot cannot fire them.

    RAF Harrier IIs DO carry "big guns" - 30mm Aden cannon in underbelly pods. We have one each side, the Yanks have one 25mm cannon with the ammunition in the pod on the other side."

    The aden guns carry only very limited amount of ammo which is why the yanks only put one gun in (extra ammo) that they use 25 mm is to standardize on 1 type

    the apache (dutch ones) have been quite succesful in afghanistan, needed some new tactics but these thinks are scary

    as for the eurofighter, all modern air combat is governed by one simple rule: if you see your opponent before he sees you, he is dead.That simple, eurofighter might be able to run circles around anything, most of the time the kill will be by a missile fired by a plane not even seen by the other pilot. Command & control, electronic warfare are area's the uk needs to do better in.

    as for the claim that the uk would be able to mount an attack on syria or iran, don't be daft. No land bases, not enough tankers and no e-warfare or control

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "...overpriced and outclassed..."?

    Pricey, perhaps. But outclassed? Hardly. It's at least as capable in air-to-air as any current competition, by pretty much all accounts I've seen.

  13. fireman

    @Jeff Rowse

    I am mistaken on the origin of the F-35. Sorry about that and thanks for pointing it out.

    With regards to my Boeing comments, the MOD has rightly taken a roasting for it's part in the infamous Chinook cock-up but Boeing has been let off lightly and once again the disadvantages of 'out-sourcing' for kit seems to have been glossed over.

    From this issue of Private Eye (on why there are 8 mark 3 chinooks mothballed in bournemouth):

    In the original purchase of the Mark 3 Chinooks, the NAO notes: "Although Boeing met its contractual obligations, the avionics software could not be shown to meet UK standards."

    The MOD forgot to write access to the Boeing computers source code in the contract, and so could not test the avionics.

    Boeing was in no hurry to help and "resisted the department's (MOD) requests for access to the source code", the NAO then goes on to say that the MOD had no "leverage with Boeing". But Why not? Boeing is on of the worlds biggest arms firms and part of the international security establishment. In the UK its boss is Sir Roger Bone, a former private secretary to the Foreign Secretary; and it has partnering contracts worth £1bn looking after other Chinooks. none of this could persuade Boeing to help the MOD even in the middle of two wars....

    My point isn't who is to blame so much as that this is the kind of thing that can happen, and at the worst possible time, when we give such work and orders to a foreign company....even a US company. There may be some advantages to doing so, such as cost, but they must be viewed as short term gain for middle to long term loss. Like farming, it's important to try hard to keep our industries working, even if it does cost more in the short term.

    Dealing with the United States is madness. They simply do not take the UK seriously and they don't like Europe at all. The French split from America...we should have done the same some time ago. Oh, and by the way, as an aside, the Americans GAVE Germany a lot of money after the war and invested heavily. Because we voted in a labour government, they decided to delay any loans and then charged us through the teeth for them - and decided to call in the war debt as well. We've only got ourselves to blame though haven't we? I mean it was us (Europe) that shipped off all the nutters to Australia and the US in the last couple of centuries wasn't it? And now look what they're doing....but I digress.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    UK arms

    Apparently the UK is the world's #1 arms exporter, so we should be making more money from this war/death thing than anyone else (unless the bribes have got out of control) - so we should be able to afford all this stuff so we can kill even more people shouldn't we ?

    I'm sure this money could be better spent on giving our MP's unlimited expense accounts, erecting a speed camera every 3 paces, and painting our arses blue.

    </wibbble>

  15. Jeff Rowse

    PRIVATE EYE???

    Whilst I applaud that noble rag's digs at Government and Celebrity personalities, I am not sure I trust them too far as a source of technical knowledge.

    Yes, Boing (sorry, deliberate mis-spelling - think 757 at Heathrow for partial explanation!) wouldn't give us the source code for some of the avionics, but the MoD didn't want American kit on "our" Special Forces helicopters to begin with. UK avionics companies basically couldn't come up with the goodies to keep up with the changing requirements coming out of Whitehall and the whole shebang fell apart in a rather untidy mess (one source suggests Thales kit nearly went in but MoD is keeping rather quiet on the subject).

    The source code in question was for the (digital) engine control units (FADEC, or Full-Authority DEC); 4 of the 8 Chinooks are still missing their flight instruments which is why they cannot fly. I believe the other 4 were "reverted" back to a near-HC2 standard and are trolling around quite happily...

    Oh, and for all those who seem to think that Typhoon must be bad since it's had so many upgrades since it started flying, can you think of ANY front-line military aircraft (or even second-line) that has not had upgrades and modifications performed since it entered service?

    Fact of the matter is, the upgrades for Typhoon have been developed as the things were being built, rather than having to be retrofitted years after manufacture as happens with most aircraft.

  16. Scott
    Thumb Down

    @Jeff Rowse

    RAF Harriers with guns? Doubt it. The Harrier GR.5 was intended to carry a new 25mm Aden gun, but (to summarise) it never worked properly and eventually they gave up trying to make it work... In theory the old Harrier GR.3 30mm pods or the AV-8B's GAU-12 guns could possibly be used instead but don't think there's been any attempt to do that operationally.

  17. Jeff Rowse

    @Ton

    Dutch Apaches are kept sensibly clear of short-range engagements so are doing better than the UK and US ones; long-range attacks are what they were designed for, except they are being used against insurgents hiding in rocks rather than AFVs on the German plains (but yes, they *are* scary and I for one do not wish to get on the receiving end of one).

    American and British Apaches tend to get a lot more up close and personal with the bad guys, so are more vulnerable (the first Apache engagement in Afghanistan resulted in all the Apaches suffering severe damage due to the volume of small arms fire and RPGs encountered).

    The American Harriers don't carry much more ammo than the RAF/RN ones, and the reasons for having two seperate guns should be obvious (single point-of-failure, damage to either pod either kills the gun or the ammo - you need both pods working or your gun won't play; vulnerable cross-fuselage ammo link and so on).

    Warrior APCs have a 30mm autocannon which I believe uses the same ammunition as the Harrier's pods; I'm not sure that the 25mm gun used in the US Harrier's pod is the same as the 25mm guns used on the M2 Bradley or the Apache, or if they use the same sort of ammunition - just because it is the same diameter does not mean it is compatible (ie 9mmP used by NATO and the 9mm Marakov used by the ex-Warsaw Pact countries).

    Despite what you see on the news, not every air-to-air missile launch is a kill, and many modern aircraft have missile approach warning kit; once you know someone's launched at you, you know they are out there and you can start to do something about it. And if neither side wipes out the other before running out of missiles (always a possibility), or you close to negate the effectiveness of their missiles, then the fight will come down to who can point their gun at the opposition quickest - and the more power and agility you have available, the more likely you are to get the killshot.

    The Typhoons now rolling off the production line have the PIRATE (Passive Infra-Red Tracking Equipment) sensor fitted just in front of the cockpit so have a better chance of "seeing" the other side first.

  18. ton

    check out last years attack on syria

    e-warfare took out the radar, i don't think the uk or for that matter eu have that kind of stuff

    for project power you need a lot more than a fighter you need a system, right now only the us can do that on a global scale, israel and russia might be able to do it regional.

    i doubt if any lets say bigger than brigade deployment would be realistic without us involvment, a larger heavier deployment mechanized division would be a no go from the start. The stupidity of having politics decide what equipment to get has resulted in the french getting carriers which have no aew planes, the uk getting euh the same and troops not getting the proven (chinook, blackhawk & hercules) they need

    as for the dutch apaches, yes they did, stupid spagettiwestern shootouts are for movies, the best way to kil your enemy is if he can't kill you back. Might not be sporting but hey.

    as for missiles yeh i know but amraam & newer sidewinders have upped the % a lot since the first phantoms

  19. Graeme

    Guns

    "RAF Harrier IIs DO carry "big guns" - 30mm Aden cannon in underbelly pods."

    No they do not, RAF harrier GR5/7/9's have NEVER carried the 30mm aden cannon

    there are quoted in some publications as having done so, that is incorrect

  20. Wayland Sothcott
    Flame

    So can we bomb Iran yet?

    I know that's the point of these aircraft, to attack something. If they can beat F16's then maybe we should attack the USA. Come on, skip all the nerdy part of this computer game and lets gets some action.

  21. heystoopid
    Paris Hilton

    Reminded me of another story

    Reminded me of another story of when propeller driven fighter aircraft were king of the air , when some fool suggested they should be adapted to drop bombs rather then the crude fin stabilised unguided rocket air to ground missiles munitions which had just come of the drawing boards !

    Sadly one man's blind insistence of the fact he wanted another bomber in face of reality , delayed Willy Meschersmitt's wonderful advanced gas turbine powered toy by another two years and the rest is history !

    So those that fail to learn from the pages of history are thus doomed to repeat the same mistakes endlessly in a loop !

    Thus so far , it looks like the poor Eurofighter based on the evidence as presented is doomed to be a flying coffin one chance in ten of besting the Sukhoi MKI in either naval , air defence role or ground attack role or will the doomed TSR2 or the ever versatile multi role Blackburn Buccaneer forever dog it's career trail to the bitter end of it's short frontline career role ?

    Some people just want to keep making the same past mistakes without learning why it is plain both dumb and stupid at the same time !

  22. Anonymous Coward
    Dead Vulture

    @ton; UK anti-radar capability

    BAE's ALARM - Air-Launched Anti-Radiation Missile - is cleared for carriage by Tornados for SEAD/DEAD. Even the later Vulcan raids on Stanley in '82 carried American-built AGM-45 Shrike ARMs. Tornado, Harrier and Typhoon all have on-board electronic self-defence systems from radar warning receivers to missile approach warning systems to (limited) jamming capability and chaff/flare dispensers - Typhoon also has towed radar decoys. The RAF has several types of EW pods that can be carried on the underwing stores pylons of the aircraft.

    And those who keep making comparisons between Adolf's Messerschmitt 262 "mistake" and Typhoon's bomb-carrying capability seem to be forgetting two things:

    Firstly, Typhoon has had a LIMITED combat capability for a year or two now - but it was limited to *air-to-air* use only which, funnily enough, was what EuroFIGHTER was meant for in the first place.

    Secondly, Nazi Germany was in the middle of a war where a fighter aircraft would probably have made a big difference. As far as I am aware, the UK is not currently under attack by streams of bomber aircraft dropping bombs all over the country.

    The closest anology I can think of is complaining a Ferrari isn't finished until they add a caravan tow hitch to the back...

    Dead duck cos we've got the things now, it's too late to cry over spilt jetfuel

  23. Lars Johansson
    Coat

    You could, ofcourse...

    ...buy the SAAB 39 Griffin, now partly (49%) owned by BAE. It will give you air-to-air, air-to-gound and recon capabilities (it was specifically designed to do all three from the start), all in a 4th generation fly-by-wire airframe, while keeping roughly the same amount of spending within the British economy as buying more Eurofighters would.

    It has a fixed gun, can carry drop tanks, does in-air-refueling, carries NATO-standard munitions, etc...

    But then, it's designed by those pesky Swedes... ;-)

  24. Jon G

    Buy Britsh !

    I seem to recall that Britain used to have an excellent record of developing its own planes without the endless "partnerships" with Europe or America. These joint ventures always lead to compromises, which the RAF then tries to rectify by throwing yet more money at the project. Perhaps if we just developed our own aircraft then the initial cost may be higher but they would more likely be fit-for-purpose from day one

  25. Wesley Parish

    some points

    One - military hardware's always going to be expensive. And it's got trade-offs connected with it - Guns and butter "Hurrah! The butter's all gone!"

    Two - you can pay someone else to do it for you, or you can do it yourself. The US has traditionally gone for "do it yourself"; they don't like their allies taking that same attitude though. A trap for young players.

    Three - if you've after the current best fighter-bomber, want to build and customize it yourselves, and so on and so forth, why not do what the PRC and India are doing, buy a production license for the Sukhoi 30, and give the US the finger? It'll probably cost less than either of the options I've seen in either this article or its comments. But we're not talking about "cost-effectiveness" are we - this is "alliance solidarity" which also means, letting the superpower-monopolist shaft us royally.

  26. ton

    i was talking about

    a complete e warfare system that includes specialized equipment much more that the alarm missile

    this includes "wild weasel" aircraft, electronics combat aircraft (like the ef111) and support aircraft (special version of hawkeye most of the time)

    alarm gives an aircraft a reactive option (at the cost of normal ordinance) the stuff i'm talking about is active and part of operational planning

  27. Anonymous Coward
    IT Angle

    @ Lars Johansson

    Couldn't agree more. When Saab built the Viggen they were asked how they managed to build such an immesely capable aircraft for such a low price. In their typically understated Swedish style they simply said "because we don't have the luxury of building bad aircraft"

    I would be prepared to wager that the SU35 would easily be the match of the Typhoon in air to air combat. Why don't we buy them? After all, if Europe falls out with Russia, we're all screwed anyway because we won't have any oil or gas. Oh, yeah, because the Typhoon is really about creating jobs, nothing more.

  28. Graeme

    Multinational projects because

    "Perhaps if we just developed our own aircraft then the initial cost may be higher but they would more likely be fit-for-purpose from day one"

    Supersonic hunter- cancelled, supersonic harrier- cancelled, TSR2- flying......then cancelled

    from the RAF's viewpoint at least with multinational projects they actually you get an aircraft in the end

    Now if we could just build the next project without the Germans

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