slowtime.

I wonder if the browser is as compact and well coded as quicktime and itunes.

Some people just don't get it

The problem's being analyzed backwards when the arguments go like "MS forces IE install/updates too!". THAT IS THE PROBLEM! If that logic were to apply to other things, then I would be free to do bank robberies and kill people, because "those guys over there do it too".

Having updaters installing software you do not have is wrong. This is the main reason most of us ditched Quicktime, as it was stuck in with iTunes, much like Windows/IE back in the Win95 OSR2 and Win98 days. New software is supposed to be opt-in, otherwise you're no better than those installers checking toolbars by default.

I must thank Jobs, as everytime I think about switching back to Mac, he gives me a new reason why I shouldn't do it.

@ Neil

by bundling your browser with MacOS.... BTW, I feel really limited by not being able to select Devil Bill and Devil Steve simultaneously

Safari?

I dig my macs (all three of them) - they do all I want quickly, quietly and efficiently. But they're by no means perfect.

Safari suck piles in the worst possible way. I can not use it at work because it won't play ball with an ISA proxy. It half loads pages then crashes.

The same happens with Safari for 'doze.

So - like all things, I keep the bits I like (pretty much most of the Mac OS) and ditch the rest.

Also, I dunno how the software updater runs on 'doze, but in OS X you look what's being offered, choose what you want and de-select everything else. How hard is that?

secuirty

"I didn't know I installed Safari on this computer, but if I did I guess I should update it."

this is the real issue here

how do you know that what looks like the Apple updater (or even the Firefox updater) isn't some new piece of malware that's slipped past your virus checker?

and even though it occurs to you that you don't remember installing Safari, you click the update button anyway

if it had been malware, you've just given it permission to install anything

i think the Mozilla dude brings up a very good point

we are TOO trusting of our updaters and really, thanks should be given to Apple for showing us this.

blindly clicking update is as bad as blindly clicking a link in an email

What a bunch of whiny little c*nts

Good lord somebody needs to call the whaaaaambulance.

Are you forced to install the software? No.

Is there something preventing you from reading the text and unchecking the box? No.

Fuck me the irrational Apple hate on here is absurd.

I also see a lot of people making comments about Firefox's supposed superiority to Safari. The only thing that's better about it is that it has Firebug. Firefox's font rendering is for shit, its form elements are fugly, and it sounds like Safari is being judged based on version 1 or 2, not the much-improved version 3.

I think it's great that Windoze users are being given an option besides Exploder.

If OK for Apple then OK for Bonzi Buddy, Comet Cursor & 180 Solutions

It is very arguably malware behaviour, since the box is titled "update" and not "install". That is clearly fooling the human.

I don't think many other software makers would get away with this.

Whatever definition we have for malware, and trojan downloaders, it should be consistent. This is the basic principle of common law: one law for everyone.

So, if this behaviour is okay for Apple, then it is okay for 180 Solutions, Bonzi Buddy, Comet Cursor, Hotbar and Gator.

What trust?

He thinks I trust anyone? I fail to see or feel this trust he talks about. he speaks about it as though they have forums about it. No he's just sore because someone else made it easier than they did...

On concession I give to him is the update issue regarding the safari being check "ON" by default when there is no prior install of the browser. If I have it installed I would like to to be checked "ON" by default. Would save me the time to check it.

Everything else he says is green bloody jealousy.

he gives Apple way too much credit in terms of wrecking the whole internet. Jeez...

Anyone point out that he's neglected to mention that Windows installer does stuff to my XP without my asking for it...

Re: what about Google?

The differences are that a) the Google toolbar installer is usually accompanied by the Google logo, which sticks out like a sore thumb and b) it's normally done as a software install, not as part of an update. You're right that such programs shouldn't tick it by default, though. That's bad.

I, like many others, I'm sure, just hit the Apple update continue button. It was only while it was half-way through that my brain switched into gear and I remembered that Safari was some obscure browser used on Macs.

I never really trust cancelling installs half-way through (God only knows what mess is left in the registry), so I let the Apple updater run to completion and then promptly uninstalled Safari.

Shame on Apple.

Unsuprising

This isn't suprising as markets are becoming increasingly cut-throat, Stevey boy and Billy boy are going to use whatever edge they can to get ahead, the simplest option is to simply not use any of their software.

Of course, you could always uncheck the update! Sadly being a web developer I have it already installed for testing.

Spyware

It's just spyware and an attempt to get the great unwashed to use their crappy browsers that's still in beta. (Or it was a couple of months ago - could be RC or final now)

The difference between Microsoft and Adobe and others is that the updates are security updates for products you have installed. Apple are using the patching mechanism to install new software - that is (I think) beta.

This is a very low and typically Apple-like distribution method.

Another reason not to use a Mac.

Firefox auto-update + safari thumbs down

This program (Firefox auto-update) just looks after updates for ONE product. IIRC It's the same with Thunderbird which just pops up to say "we've updated it". Maybe this starts a debate which says should each application take care of it's own updates, but this might be deemed inefficient. Anyhow, I rate that - if you're happy with a browser (easy to reinstall if something breaks - just make sure you use foxmarks to backup your bookmarks), surely relatively inobtrusive security updates taking place whilst you get on with your business are a good thing. Remember you don't HAVE to restart the browser until you're ready (to apply the update) too.

I'll also agree that Safari is utter b0ll0x. Whilst I'm looking at getting a 20" iMac later this year (I'll furnish it with some kind of VM tool for running windows networking experiements), it'll be like my iBook - Firefox as default. I've found the rendering by safari to be so unreliable on some sites that it's not true.

They've set up the board rules, so play by them

It is now perfectly ok, to add an apple-deinstaller as a bundle to your software, and make sure the bundled version is a second or two newer than the version without it, and then automatically upgrade the version without apple-remover to the one with. Afterall, this is what Apple does to poor sods installing quicktime (not bundled with iTrash or safari): They "upgrade" the customer to a version that replaces their applications with apple-trash (read: Changes file associations to a piece of crap software that is known to mess up your filesystem, AND automatically "convert" all sound/video-files that are incompatible with iPuke to a format incompatible with all other players on the market).

I disliked Apple after having had the misfortune of needing their lack-of-service system ("good old" dc-board plug. The hybrid between RCA and mini-jack. I wore out the plug in the machine end. Since the machine was out of warranty anyways, I didn't feel like paying the service-shop about as much as the machine costed to have them replace a board that costed less than 1/10th of that, so I tried buying the board to replace it myself. "No, sir, you can't replace that as it would void your warranty" "That warranty is no more, anyways" "You need to send it in for servicing, and since the machine is out of warranty that will cost..." "Didn't you just say that replacing it myself would void the warranty? This implicitly states that the machine still is under warranty. Quit using loopback statements", etc. In the end I replaced the Apple-thingy with a thinkpad, transferred my data, and set the apple-toy on fire. Literally.), back to the thing at hand: I disliked Apple after this run-in with their service dept. On my replacement for the Apple toy, I had the second misfortune of being disturbed while installing quicktime (I had to leave the house). When I got home, the quicktime had upgraded itself to quicktime+itunes (which I did not want), and the iTunes crapware had "sorted my media files". I spent an hour on the phone with Apple giving them the option between cleaning up their mess, or getting in touch with the police (unlawful computer trespass.) They threathened me with lawsuits if I didn't just let them continue. The police was a lot more empathic, and smilingly accepted my report. This is still under investigation. And this run-in was when I stopped disliking apple, and started loathing them on principle.

After that I've had a few run-ins with Apple iBrainwashed users, who for all intents and purposes should be compared to fanatic, religious, nutcases. Each and every run-in with Apples semi-militant drone-army has left me with the impression that Apple must add something to their equipment, that chemically removes any shred of logic from people being exposed to it. And each and every one of these run-ins has left me comparing Apple's Militia with the Spanish Inquisition, and considering the Inquisition pure amateurs.

So, over the years, my dislike for Apple has been replaced with the impression that anyone using _ANY_ of their products has shown sufficient lack of judgement to be eligible for storage in a facility to house the criminally insane. _ANY_ of their products.

I also consider that anybody trying to recruit MORE Apple-slaves should be shot. On sight.

Church of Jobs makes other religions seem like wannabes when it comes to excusing every wrong their church has ever done. Isn't there some laws regarding theology, requiring atleast a license? Has any of the Apple-crowd got such a license? If not, CAN WE PLEASE SHUT THEM DOWN?

//Svein

@ xSc0de

I have to agree with MARCO, Firefox's "update in the background without permission" is much worse! On my laptop, when I'm not at home, I pay a premium for data transfer. I don't want to download large updates when I'm on a premium rate service, I'd much rather wait till I get home to my "all you can eat" (within our

FUP... but that's another rant) wired service. What with the ridiculous international roaming costs on 3g (yet another rant!), how much would an unasked for firefox upgrade cost an unsuspecting traveller (oh my network connections a bit slow... the internet must be slower in this country ;-) ).?

Was it just me, or was this ironic...

"But, being British and thus or at least average inteligence I first red what I was updating made a choice, and decided I was more then happy using Opera (you know the browser that started things like tabbed browsing)."

Red, reed, read, reap.....

Worrying thing is Apple are always slow to patch their systems, and they've potentially added millions of new "winDoze" customers (not usually the sharpest tools in the box, if we're being fair....). The two together is a scary though.

Btw, how many people will switch to Opera just because "apple iz well cool at da moment innit" (because they make portable audio devices).

The mind boggles.

Paris says hello.

EU should look

The EU should take a very close look at Apple. They use deceptive practicies that make Microsoft look angelic. They lock down their OS so it can only be sold on hardware they provide (no competition - I've already filed a complaint with the EU over this) and now they try to force their browser onto people who use their inferior software.

Microsoft has its issues, there is no denying this, but if MS were to do such a deceptive practice, you can bet your bottom Canadian dollar (not US dollar, they worthless these days) that they would be hauled before the DoJ and the EU fined billions of Euros and vilified by the Mac crowd.

Yes it has security implications, people who unknowingly install it as an update now have another piece of software from Apple, the company that will quite happily ignore a Critical Security for months on end, do you really want a company like this to put a browser on your computer?

The sooner the EU stop Apple's uncompetetive and deceptive practices the better, and the sooner people stop using their rubbish formats and switch to open standards, the better.

CACK OS Browser on Windows

Safari is cr*p! It does a bad job displaying websites, its annoying, it crashes and above all I wouldnt have itunes on my pc in the first place.

If people are thick enough to buy an ipod or worse an iphone and have installed inoise then you deserve everything you get!

You should have bought a zune!

@MARCO

I find this rather curious, are you

a) too lazy

or

b)too stupid

to click Edit->Preferences->Update

and select the 'Ask Me What To Do' option?

You're either an idiot or a troll. Perhaps a little research would benefit you next time? Firefox will not automatically install updates UNLESS YOU LET IT.

Mine's the one with RTFM written on the back.

Uninstall Software Update

I just uninstall Apple software update anyway. It is as bad as some of these other pop up's. One of the reasons I like the Apple platform was that they did not try to pull crap like this, or have their software break other people's software. Unfortunately, Apple has lost sight of this when they became just a manufacturer of iPod's and latest gadgets.

@Grant Mitchell

Stop whining... xSc0de - if that really is your name ;-) has explained this... you musn't have understood, so...

Firefox Update:

Menu -> Tools -> Options -> Advanced -> Updates

You've three items (Firefox, Installed Add Ons, Search Engines) that can be updated automatically, with an "ask me what to do" prompt or, guess what? Unselect all three and (drum roll) Not at all.

Sheesh!

Of wet fish and CEOs

Someone who defaults your search engine to Google (the search engine that defaults to CliquiPedia) complains about someone else undermining security and trust on the web?

Har-de-har-har - slapstick season is with us again - Ballmer, Jobs and Lilly in the same old slapping each other with wet fish routine - plus ca change.

Good Move...

Anything that lets the average user know that there is an alternative to Internet Exploder is a good thing.

Anything that gets the average user to think about what they are clicking on is a good thing.

Safari itself is NOT, as some people have implied, Malware, so there really isn't an issue if it is installed and then never used.

Whether or nor this is really a positive move for Apple's credibility is something that we will need to wait and see - the readership of El Reg may have a small say in that, but we are not the majority.

@Michelle

Oh no - you had to do it didn't you.

Do you hear that rumbling noise in the distance - it's the sound of the legions of ubuntu users (yes - all four of them) rattling their keyboards to tell you exactly how to permanently deinstall IE

Quicktime

Yeah, itunes was the reason quicktime vanished permanently from my windows machine, therefore it is the reason I'm using alternative movie players to play quicktime (I don't even own a stupid IPOD, and have no need for itunes).

Actually I did that with windows media player too, as when I upgradede it to the lastest media player, with all that wonderful DRM junk in it, half the movies I had downloaded (free clips, and trailers from the net), stopped working, so I downloaded alternative players and now they all play properly again.

Half the upgrades you receive atm, are infact downgrades, breaking compatibility and so forth, and installs lots of unecessary update programs, and other junk.

BTW use rythmbox on Linux, it will install your MP3's happily onto your IPOD, without filling your machine with spyware, DRM managers etc, and it has a nice simple interface :-). I found this out because I had a visitor who had bought a CD from a shop, and wanted it onto her IPOD (quite legal here), but didn't have her computer with her, quick and easy to do on Linux, (I wasn't going to let itunes come within a mile of my system)

Personally I hate the way most problems sneak some kind of stay resident junk onto your machine when you install it, I keep using msconfig to disable all those autostart, autoupdate junk programs, so far I think I have 30 odd barred from starting - makes your machine a real lot faster, when you disable all that junk.

Firefox shouldn't be concerned over their market share

As said before you have geeks and users. Users are generally the sheep of the world, they get a windows PC and use whatever they ar egiven (IE) Don't get me wrong some geeks use IE too and that is fine, it's their choice too. Generally speaking Geeks will use Firefox or Opera, Very few users will go to the trouble of downloading a different browser when they are surfing the net just fine with IE.

So Firefox won't be too concerned over their market share because if one of their users will inadvertantly download Safari then they will simply Fire up their trusty firefox and tick the use Firefox as default browser tickbox. Problem resolved.

They are right to be concerned over security with users downloading SW they don't want but it's been happening for years. I have been to many a friends "slow" computer to find a boatload of toolbars, popup blockers and not to mention good old fashioned pr0n! (Ok that last one probably found it way onto that computer intentionally).

Working on a Helpdesk I have seen a rise of customers leaving a message saying I've got a Virus HEEEEELLLLP! Only for me to call back and find that it was a popup telling them they have a virus and that they need to download this SW to protect themselves. End of the Day users are at a greater risk of breaking their computers because they don't fully understand how to use them and what is good to install and what is bad to install.

If you liken the Geek/User relationship to the Mechanic/Motorist.

The mechanics car will run better/be more reliable because he knows how to look after it service it regularly and not drive it like an idiot.

Similarly a mechanic will tinker with the car to make it faster/better. Same as a geek with a computer.

3 step solution

1. Remove Apple software from PC.

2. Destroy iPod.

3. Get on with life*.

* Assumes prior possession of same.

Apple Defenders

What serious mental problem keeps you people defending Apple with your life whenever they screw up? It's always the same thing

MS,Sony etc (insert large corporation of choice) make crappy product - boo hiss evil megabucks corporation shitting on the customer

Apple make crappy product - it's a first release/it will be fixed in an update/run out and buy the next product because Apple have promised the problems have been removed

(large corporation of choice) use underhanded tactics to get software on your machine/installs something without permission/breaks something that worked fine before the update/will not release the code for independent checking - boo hiss evil megabucks corporation I hate them Ihate them I hate them

Apple do the same - It's all good, anything Stevie does is perfect and for our own good so we accept it while flaming anybody who dares disagree with us

You are constant victims of your own double standards and are happy to keep forking money out to Apple for the privilege. It's about time Apple got dragged through the courts for anti-competitve, anti-consumer behaviour like all other corporations instead of being treated like they can do no wrong.

@Grant Mitchell

Er, the point is, you have control over this in Firefox. READ what people post maybe?

Well...

...you know, I like to use Firefox(Mac), but the trouble is a lot of the ads on the Register cause it to just vanish. So maybe if the Mozilla CEO and his mates could just fix that for me then I wouldn't be using Safari right now. Better be quick before I grow to like it...

How to bring Apple Update to heel

I agree that offering an update of a product you don't have 'sucks', as you yanks would say.

However I've managed to get Apple Update under my control. I don't let it automatically check for updates, but have changed the preferences so that it only checks for updates manually (to change the preferences launch Apple Update, then press 'cancel' to stop it checking for updates, then select the preferences from the menu bar).

Meanwhile I do allow iTunes to check for updates - thus when it launches it will inform me if there is a new version available. I am thus informed of iTunes updates but not about "updates" to products I don't have such as Safari.

I can of course occasionally check Apple Update at my leisure to see if there's a security patch for QuickTime for example. But I don't really ever use QuickTime as a standalone app, so I don't really see this a big issue.

UPdates and choices

Surely, people should read what is on the screen. If they don't then it is their fault. If users don't have the nouse to search in the menus of their application (eg FF) and find the check boxes for tuning on/off automatic updates, then they need to take computer lessons. You are not allowed to take a car out on your own until you pass a test. You have to be taught how to use it. Should be the same for computers. That's why there are so many computers out there with viruses and trojans on them, plus all those that are in botnets. If the users had enough intelligence they would make sure their computers were clean.

You just don't click on popups any more. Or ads. Unless you really trust where they came from... No telling where they came from or whether they are cosher or not. So when these updaters pop up on screen people should read what they say. If it has an option for updating software (safari) you haven't installed, either you deselect it, or maybe it did sneak onto your computer without you knowing. Or maybe, just maybe, it is something else pretending to be that software (safari). And yes, it's bad timing, with that phorm thing going on right now.

Apple should change the updater so any software you don't have that is available in the updater is shown as available as new software and is unticked by default.

Paris, because she will probably click on install anyway.

Here's a good reason why it should be withdrawn

Note the Highly Critical portion of the advisory below, note the complete lack of patches.

How you can justify a browser being included with media players is hard enough to understand, but when it has a highly critical security hole in it, then it's just plain stupid/evil/greedy.

VERIFY ADVISORY:

http://secunia.com/advisories/29483/

CRITICAL:

Highly critical

IMPACT:

Spoofing, System access

WHERE:

From remote

SOFTWARE:

Safari for Windows 3.x

http://secunia.com/product/17978/

At a minimum it should be withdrawn until it's fully patched, all the n00bs need is more security holes.

@Ivan Headache

What are you missing in Firefox? Everything that was in Opera 2 years ago...