Do we need computer competence tests?

Can my ISP support be enrolled?

Can I submit that virgin media support staff be put through a _basic_ IT course (I'd prefer an advanced course, but lets take baby steps!). This may help relieve my frustration when dealing with them :).

Less enforcement, more education

I see where you're going with this idea, but licensing wouldn't be even slightly practical (especially with multi-user machines - family computers for example).

What is really needed is more an education on the availability of cut-down capability machines at the point of sale (with the assumption of said availability of course). The problem you're essentially highlighting is that of someone going into B&Q, asking a sales rep for something to cut up cardboard for arts and crafts (a stanley knife) and being sold a circular saw. This keeps happening partly due to the consumer not entirely understanding what is available to them (not as obvious when purchasing a PC as with a stanley knife vs saw), the sales rep wanting a larger commission and the sales rep being about as clueless as the customer and thinking that by selling them something with big numbers they must be improving their lives. Yes PC World monkeys, I'm talking to you.

This could get very messy

"In exchange, perhaps we could insist that who we send emails to, and what they contain, is entirely confidential without some evidence of criminality?"

Which would mean that this is not any kind of right but is a specially awarded privilege which can be withdrawn at any time. And of course would be the next time they plant a tabloid scare story.

More and more businesses and government offices etc. are cutting costs by dumping everything on the web. If you forbid someone to use certain functions, how to do guarantee that they have some other way to work with those organisations? Especially when it's a very rapidly moving target.

What happens when someone isn't licensed to use the web but can't find a mobile phone that doesn't have a web browser built in? Or wants to borrow someone else's phone when their battery has died?

Pots and Kettles

"to let someone load the office database onto their personal laptop and leave it in their car outside Tesco"

But it only seems to be government/MOD employees who do that, so perhaps they should get their house in order first?

Kudos to Michael for remembering the BBC interview debacle. I'd forgotten it was GK they meant to have!

The problem is

humans will remain humans. There will always be ethical and unethical people and the unethical will always find a way around "the law". To say that OS's should be made with limited functionality may be fine and dandy but what about open source Linux, where you can modify and rewrite it any way you choose? Does that mean open source should be banned or creativity chopped off at the knees? What about the hardware - Should it be hard coded to restrict "dangerous" activity? OOPS there goes my FTP to my website. OH yeah, i can get a third party FTP client to bridge a connection. As a matter of fact I can get just about any third party program to do what Windows makes hard for the average user to do.

Do we allow the ISP's to scrutinize every connection we make? Make encryption or proxies illegal? There goes my privacy.

The problem as I see it is that OS's such as Windows has enabled much of what's going on by turning things on by default and having hardware that is "stupid" to what's happening and even measures such as DEP can be circumvented.

So here comes Vista with all it's annoying security dialogs and quirks, making what used to be tolerable.... intolerable and no more secure than previous versions.

So to me it would seem it's the end user who is unfortunately stuck with security since we all want our privacy and freedom. Sandboxing is all fine and well too but what does the average joe deny or allow to write to the disk? Joe needs to be smart enough to decide that unless you want to totally sandbox everything and not allow anything to write to disk.

The virtual world is much like the real world in terms of keeping your privacy and allowing you to do your own thing, as long as it's legal. Then there's things that may be illegal here but legal somewhere else. So I go somewhere else and we all know there are a lot of "somewhere else's".

There certainly isn't any concrete answer to keeping the net alive and well, without the "accidents" or deliberate unwanted actions. Well, there may be one way but do you really care to be completely regulated and controlled?

As in real life, we are all walking or surfing targets and always will be. The best we can do is educate and train people. So maybe a license is the way to go but there will always be some who break the speed laws or drink while they surf or fall asleep behind the wheel.

Besides all that, what will happen to poor M$ if they didn't have anything to do by way of "upgrades" if everyone who surfed with a license had the ability to stave off all the nasties out there?

IT's a cruel world.

Does it have to be Compulsary?

I think too many people are concentrating on the 'compulsary' nature of Guy's suggestions, but what about non-compulsary training or licencing.

A voluntary government sponsored Internet/Security awareness course akin to the ECDL could be a useful qualification for people to have for job applications etc, and might encourage people to learn these things for themselves.

Also, at the moment Microsoft Windows (or in fact any of the other OS's) don't really include any advice on IT security, and this would be a very useful tutorial to give new PC users when they first switch the machine on.

Jonathan

We, the intelligent, DO have the right to call the shots here

1) Those people are operating machines which cause economic damage to their surroundings by spreading spam, phishing email messages and malware.

2) Everyone, them included have to pay for that damage.

3) Non-damaging people are therefore subsidising those who damage

4) I'm f**king paying for your f**king internet f**king access you fat f**king dimbulb. Since I am, I get to say what you can do with it. Get over it.

QED.

Another elegant demonstration of logic. Hurrah.

The dog with the universal remit-to-bite

I see no end point to this nonsense.

We all are experts on a very few things, duffers on a lot more, and completely incompetent on huge tracts of action. And everything - from cars and planes down to computers and fire extinguishers - is capable of causing problems.

If I have to be competent before I can do anything, you've closed off the vast majority of human activity to me. And yourself. The details may differ from one person to the next -- the effect is universal.

To milk a poor analogy

Everyone seems to be forgetting that we are dealing with a (perceived) issue that crosses every border on this planet (and what with laptops in space... etc.). It has thus far not even been possible to standardise the road traffic laws across a few borders, so how does anyone think we can get agreements about something like computer networking.

Is the American inclination to think that the internet stops at the border now making its way into the UK?

Fairly simple

Javastation running from (flash?)rom+ smartcard slot for storing your bookmarks. People not licensed to properly mantain a regular computer should stick to online mail and office solutions. We require licensing for weapons. And quite frankly: Some of the users connected to the internet today are capable of weapons-grade stupidity. Given the economic cost of these drone-infested bot-farmers, for the infrastructure itself, we can quite clearly place blame for people loosing jobs on those (their behaviour creates expenses, those expenses cause companies to have to downsize to cut expenses, downsizing creates unemplyment, thus those bot-farmers are responsible for parts of the unemployment).

The only real problem with this, is that MP/RI/MAFI-AA have most of those four still buying their music, among the online population that would be forced to turn off their system, and make a nice, profit of their computer illiteracy, since these aren't capable of using a torrent client, nor are they capable of critical thinking, nor capable of seeing how paying an immoral business (who uses extortion as their weapon of choice) is just as immoral as purchasing goods manufactured using child-labour, or contributing to smuggling.

As long as the media corporations have most of their paying sheep^w^wcustomers among the illiterate, this interest group will use every method (notice: Not every legal method. Every method.) to make sure this group stays online, including keeping their buddies in the "nice-and-shiny-interface-claiming-to-be-antivirus-software"-business well-fed, and keep up the hysteria to get people looking away from the real malware like copyprotection-rootkits, DRM, watermarking, blackmail contracts for the real artists, etc.

So where are we?

The 25% of those on the internet, that would have passed a license test (and 25% is an optimistic number!) agree that the internet would be a better place if we could find a way to disconnect the remaining 75%, preferrably by disconnecting them at the wrists. This is because we are getting fed up calming them down from media-induced hysteria, and cleaning up their computer from their bad habits. The hysteria is about having the shiniest Neat-InSecurity package around, instead of handling the real problem like "clicking randomly at everything on the horizon". This 75% includes most people wearing a suit to work. This 75% usually includes "Your Boss"(TM), and here we again hit a snag. How do you explain to your boss that YOU are allowed to have a computer, because you know the difference between left and right clicking, while he is an incompetent git that has enough difficulties getting a license for humanity, let alone a license to use a computer.

So now we have two major obstacles: Media corporations and most of the suit-wearing workforce. Notice how these two groups are also known as "your company

s owners", and "your boss". Now how was this license thing going to fly again?

Ahh, the solution is simple. Issue real sysadmins the license to kill, not only to use the shell-command...

I know. Coat-time.

//Svein

Unrealistic, undesirable

Testing users or certifying their computers and software is both unrealistic and undesirable. Sorry, we got used to our reckless freedom and we EMPHATICALLY don't like anybody telling us which OS (apples, anybody?) and programs (OOomydocumentsmustbestandardized) are good or bad for us.

Other end of the stick.

How about we defenestrate those companies (starting with their entire senior executive, then working our way down their major shareholders) that deliberately and with malice aforethought derail or hold back standards and practices that would make computing more secure?

Instead of blaming the users of the crap that's being made available, how about blaming the companies that have put profit before security? If a car manufacturer did that... oh, wait, Ford did and they profited from it. Never mind. resuming...

Companies that have put crappy, poorly written, easily compromised operating systems up for sale while marketing them as "secure" to a general public that can't know better? Or perhaps blaming the governments have have repeatedly refused to take these software companies to court for lying and cheating the consumer with their practices?

As for "direct damage", talk to the pensioner who just got scammed for most of their savings, or the person who gets jailed because a computer in their classroom is a virus infested pile of unsecure crap. THEN talk about whether there is any real damage or not to allowing these practices to continue.

Heh.. my dear old dad....

... claims that the Government (Capital G) never should have let the public have personal computers. He has his points but overall I think he's wrong - never stops him from asking me to look something up on the net. Cracks me up.

About the "bottom feeders of IT", the tech support types - I was one once upon a time and used to fantasize about black helicopters landing and removing every piece of electronics (even down to the time blinking vcr's), breaking the consumer's little fingers, and never, ever, be able to access the net ever again.

Fun stuff to think about while on the phone with a total idiot bitching about why nobody ever TOLD him about using AV software and why it doesn't "do it automagically".... what ever "it" is that it does... sigh.

People ask why I don't do residential call outs instead of just business clients - I simply don't have time for folks who believe that if they pay you once, it should come with unlimited lifetime support for their machine...

Paris icon because endusers and Paris have something in common - both have no sense and something infecting their "workstations"

And if people are allowed to enter written content on websites...

...they have to pass a basic spelling test!

Obligatory car analogy

Here is a car analogy that is reasonably true.

Scene - The Midlands Car Show Room.

Customer: My friend says that I should buy a car - I want to visit my sister in Brighton.

Salesperson: We have really good cars here. Brighton is a long way, so you will need a comfortable car with a big engine - Like our WinCar. Do you have a family?

C: Yes - I have a partner and 2 children.

S: Oh, our WinCar SuperPlus is ideal for you, it has special shiney stuff to keep the children entertained.

C: Is that it? It looks complicated.

S: No, not really, everyone with children should have one of these. It is very shiney, and will be really comfortable for you all when you go to Brighton.

C: I have not driven before - Is that all right?

S: Yes, it is very easy - everyone else does it. I can teach you the basics here. This button here starts WinCar. See the lever on the floor - push that to "D" when you want to go forwards - If you want to go backwards you push it to "R". Now when you want to go around a corner turn the steering wheel. There are a couple of other things that would be useful - You can make the wipers go if it is raining - All of this stuff is in the really simple manual.

C: Are you sure? It still looks a bit complicated...

S: Oh everyone can do this - You did say you have a friend who knows about cars? They will help you.

C: Yes, but he is a bit busy - He works with cars, and can't always find the time to help.

S: Oh, you will need this book then "WinCar SuperPlus for Prats", it is very good, and will soon see you right.

C: OK - I'll take one.

S: Thank you (trousering customer's dosh), You will really like it.

S: (Sits Customer in WinCar). Oh by the way, when you leave the salesroom, remember to drive on the left...

Tim (The Car Expert) - Hat, Coat, Exit, pursued by a lemming.

Barking up the wrong tree...

If you want to compare surfing to driving, then computers are no where near the standards of a car. A car has to be fit to drive on the roads. Cars are equipped with all sorts of safety devices. You don't have to pay a monthly subscription to make sure your car doors are locked. Your car won't crash for no reason. You don't need to update your car to run on newer roads. If you buy a new car it won't have a completely different layout. Being the 'administrator' of your car is not a security risk.

save us all from.....

all this nonsense.....

i have never read such utter drivel in all my life......

the bigest issue i have with my home computer network is the kids pc, but even that took one hard lesson... opening a file someone sent her, a so called friend. The pc became so screwed up, it would not even start in safe mode.... so a format and re-install it was....

I know i could have saved all her photos, emails, homework bookmarks and other assorted stuff... but i decided to make the lesson even harder....

now, she takes the advice, close any popups via the X.... dont open anything any one sends you, unless you virus scan it... and ask first what it is. and 9 times in 10 she will ask me first..... from the hardware firewall, she only has one open port to the WAN... port 80... she only has web access up to 9-30 at night... and all msn chat logs are saved in a location that we can check them over when ever we feel like.... plus a long list of other rules regarding net access....

the upshot of it all, is a 12 year old child that will grow up with the understanding of computer security.... lol, she even reminds me about the antivirus updates, and is aware of 'update tuesday'

the answer is in education, and hard lessons, but there is no need for any new licences... bloody hell, how many licences are you going to need in this country....

so far, the number of licences i have had to obtain is 8... and that is just to run a small B & B.... the total anual cost of these licences is over 1000 quid... one of them is so i can play 'original recordings' on a CD player in a dining room... another is so i can serve hot food after 11 pm

Unwashed masses

When I got a 28k8 modem & a Demon account waaaay back in '95 I knew very little about the internet but I learnt quite quickly that it's basically a mirror, a mirror of humans and their achievments, accomplishments, failures etc.

The net was still farily much in it's infancy back then so generally the people who were online were those who knew how to operate computers becuase there was no cushy interface like Windows 98 & onwards to get email, browse the web etc.

But then slowly the unwashed masses appeared bit by bit and then in droves and now we're flooded with the fuckwits, mainly started out with people (mainly kids) getting modems for christmas and then the Eternal September decreased the average IQ of all internet users: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

I don't know what can be done about educating users not to click on bad links, how to avoid becomming a bot zombie etc. but something does need to be done by someone with the ability (not Microsoft, they've caused enough problems already)

BTW, I still use the same email address since joining Demon, my spam levels aren't great but I'm not flooded by them, partly because of the Brightmail filter Demon use.

Q: What's the difference between intelligence and stupidity?

A: There's a limit to intelligence.

Competence test before "Use"

C'mon Guy. Some people ought to have a "Competence test" before they're allowed to procreate.

No, but I also think we should eliminate speed limits and seat belt laws.

I don't agree at all, but I also think we should eliminate speed limits and seat belt laws. If the road is empty why can't I drive 120MPH?

Aside from SPAM that I've had moderate success at filtering, none of these people has caused me an issue. Haven't had a virus since 1988 (damn floppy disks.) SPAM is a specific problem that needs a specific solution.

Come again?

"Surely, if ISPs limited CC emails to 20 a day and charged 1p per email CC thereafter, most spam would dry up?"

Who uses CC these days except cardigan-knitting office women? Not to mention, a large number of people use Gmail and such for their email, not their ISP's service.

Surely the author wouldn't pass this computer competence test he himself suggests.

We need some sensible restrictions now...

... before the terrorists that govern the country bring in some utterly repugnant piece of stupid, moronic, misconcieved legistlation to control the "terrorists/peodophiles/criminals".

We should start by mandating that all PCs should start life in a locked-down state.

If the user lacks the competence with a PC to open it up to de-neuter it, they aren't savvy enough to be allowed to use it in an open manner.

Email White Lists - Only permit users to send emails to those people that they know

Digital Signatures on email should be mandatory.

PGP would be nice, too.

ISPs to be made directly responisble for BotNets on their systems. Make it hit their pocket, then they'll control their users. £1000 per incident per connected node - That will definitely get their attention.

URL Whitelists that will limit the users access to any dodgy domains.

-

And before any bleeding heart liberal starts bleating; most of the neutered won't even notice anything anyway - except that they won't be able to get anymore cheap V14gr4 anymore!

@Robert Cross (re: no su on XP) and ECDL

First off, I've taught the ECDL. It's eminently basic - how to open Word, how to format bold and italic, how to check for and send an email. We need something broader - into security apps and the theory of viruses, perhaps.

As for "OMG HELPZ0RZ tehre's no SU on XP and I have to runz0rz as ADMINZ or not at all!!11!!1!!!", that's what the context menu is for. If you need to run an executable with admin priveleges under a limited user account, simply right-click on said executable and select the option "Run as...". Then you get to input your admin login and password to run said executable. Just the same as, *gasp*, Linux. I'm constantly surprised at how often this is thrown up as a defence against Windows/for Linux. Education before speech, my friend. Grow up.

Alas

Alas , I always remember a certain tale of a French Industrialist in post war France running a certain large European Car Company whose unfortunate founder was beaten to death as a collaborator by an enraged misinformed mob of twerps and the idiot doctor who refused to treat him at the time for the very same reason leaving him to die in agony , nice doctor indeed(I hope he died ashamed of his stupidity when the truth about the company in question during the troubled times eventually emerged) !

Anyway to cut a long story short one night whilst driving home in the companies car with his heavy case he carried with himself everywhere was put on the back rear parcel shelf ! To avoid some obstacle or drunk lying on the road he swerved and then ran off the road and came to rather sudden stop with very minor front vehicle damage and the unfortunately for him the unrestrained case flew forward like a lethal missile to strike him on the back of the neck and head killing him instantly !

A good hint never to place any object on the rear parcel shelf or carry it unrestrained on the back seat either any car at any time , for speed does not kill but the sudden heavy deceleration forces do the deed !

'Allowed to live' test?

A short list of people whose stupidity and ignorance either directly or indirectly causes avoidable human and suffering deaths:

People who don't recycle.

People who voted for Tony Blair.

Daily Mail readers.

Owners of diesel cars (particulates from dirty diesel engines cause hundreds of deaths in the UK every year).

Anyone who has ever bought anything made in China.

There are more, but I think that pretty much covers the entirety of the rich part of the global community.

Clicking the wrong link costs us money, but it doesn't cost lives in the way that the above activities do.

@ Shabble

Well, I only fall foul of one of those (after all, who can honestly say that some item they've never bought wasn't made in China - it's damn near unavoidable), so am I still condemned to death?