Sign in / up

back to article The Electric Car Conspiracy ... that never was

It's almost two years since the debut of Chris Paine's documentary Who Killed the Electric Car? The movie has been a success in US theatres and often comprises one half of a double bill with Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth. But what the success of the movie tells us is more alarming than any conspiracy it purports to unveil: a …

COMMENTS

House rules Send corrections
This topic is closed for new posts.

Page:

  1. Timbo
    IT Angle

    @ Neil Robertson

    Neil - no worries - when I read your O/P, I got the impression you used the 7 seater for work....

    And as another poster has said, we've all got a bit lazy nowadays expecting a car to be safe, comfy, roomy, and a joy to drive.....esp. while we're stuck on a motorway coz some idiot has gone and crashed and caused a 20 mile tailback.

    Truth is, we all have to make choices and to a degree there's a huge range of different vehicles available to suit your purpose....what the original article shows is that there may be some skullduggery going on that is restricting choices (of fuel) and choices of vehicles (in terms of basic design etc).

    More frugal, more efficient, lighter weight cars are available - but as was seen in the UK news only today, such a vehicle is not as safe when it collides with very large vehicles such as a 40+ tonne foreign truck or, as happened today, a London bendy bus....resulting in three fatalities...

    0 0
  2. p3ngwin

    backwards

    @ROLAND:

    "A reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. An unreasonable man persists in attempting to adapt his environment to suit himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw

    so it seems that the American way of short sighted living is instead of fixing the roads and making them more car friendly, make the cars adapt to the environment and say goodbye to the efficiency?

    "oh look the roads are buggered, shall we make batter roads? nah lets just build cars that can deal with it <plugs finger in hole of leaking water dam, smiles to self as problem is solved>"

    sounds like the USA has it's priorities backwards & rather like that of a child: very short sighted and selfish/naive.

    to the idiots that think "there is already a fuel infrastructure, not so for hydrogen or electric". well did you think HOW that came to be? ONE WAS NEEDED SO IT WAS BUILT !

    now the fuel idea is proving not to be as good as we thought and we need a better way, so lets build the infrastructure needed, just like any smart ass would do.

    the electrical outlets are already EVERYWHERE: THERE IS ALREADY AN ELECTRIC NATIONWIDE GRID!

    keep the existing grid lines as they are and change the generator ends.

    just need to switch from fossil fuel burning generators to more future-proof ways of generating electricity and them BAM!

    "oh look, plenty of electrical stations to charge anything you damn well please all over the place...my where did they all come from? they told us electric was not viable 'cos of the lack of infrastructure...blah...blah...bleet..bleet...."

    0 0
  3. Martin Usher

    The EV1 was quite practical

    I know someone who had one of those things, he drove it until he was forced to give it up. The problem with the EV1 is that it cost practically nothing to own and run -- apart from the lease payment and the occasional set of tires all you paid for was off peak electricity which works out far cheaper than gasoline (about a third of the cost in 2003 prices).

    Saturn also made a very innovative compact car, the SL1. This is also a dog from the car company's perspective since it pulls in 33..40mpg (US gallons -- 4 liters to a gallon), typically costs about $35 to service and lasts for ever. (Its the one that has plastic body panels over the box chassis so that you didn't get problems with scratches and dings). It was cheap, too cheap (about $12K5), and it got withdrawn for something more conventional about the time that fuel costs started rising rapidly.

    0 1
  4. Damian Wheeler

    horses for courses

    As pointed out in the article, electric vehicles may be fine for daily commutes, but long trips, hauling things or seating more people may require a different beast. A large proportion of USA have more than one car in the household, sometimes more than one per person. Many motorsport participants have their daily car(s) and a "Tow car" which is only used to pull the race car to the track. Horse racing people often the same only using the v8 to pull the horse float. For a long trip the other option is to hire a car for a vacation. I know that sounds too '80s or perhaps to touristy but for one vacation a year it makes more sense than running the bigger car all year.

    There are other considerations in the US though. The "pickup" is classed as a truck, and so doesn't need to conform to emissions or safety levels as cars do, which makes them appear cheaper. They also qualified the purchaser for tax concessions/rebates in many states, seeming cheaper again. Their government has encouraged people to use these 7ltr petrol v8 American built monsters instead of light japanese or european diesel trucks where haulage is needed, or simply a family car and a trailer for occasional use. My point being it isn't necessarily the consumers fault. The options presented to them are skewed towards what the manufacturers have colluded together to "push" on the market. No overseas companies make a pickup (closest thing is the Aussie ute, or the old Subaru Brumby) so they don't need to compete with imports in that class.

    I think in most 2 car households, there is room for at least one efficient commuter car be it electric, hybrid, small turbo diesel or even .... the bus.

    0 0
  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Join the Re-VOLT-lution

    Agree with Tom..the Chevy Volt is the same idea only done properly.

    Join the community of enthusiasts who are watching GM produce this car with scrutiny at http://www.gm-volt.com.

    0 0
  6. Mike Bremford Silver badge

    Re: It's all about TCO

    Nope. I'd love to know where that 80% figure first came from - I've heard it several times now, but it's a long way from reality.

    There's an exceptionally well-researched answer to this question at http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=433981 - but in 10 words or less, roughly 9% of a car's total energy requirements is from manufacture/recycling.

    0 0
  7. Martin Huizing
    Jobs Halo

    oil oil oil

    James,

    <Rant>No one can convince me otherwise that the reason for abandoning the electric car project(s) is because of oil oil oil. The stuff that keeps a big (not great) nation running and puts the fear of not needing it in hearts and minds of its citizens.

    </Rant>

    Although true but seriously; The first car was fuel inefficient, slow and dangerous. Because it was innovative more people wanted it and was slowly over time perfected into the beast of beauty we are happy to drive and feel safe in today.

    If only the electric car could receive the same treatment... Yes. It would be slow at first, but after a while modern developments would lift the hunk-of-battery packed road menace into a economic, fast, clean and more importantly; fuel efficient vehicle with all the positives the internal combustion propelled automobile could not provide.

    Large battery? Waiting to be charged? Here in China people are riding battery powered motorcycles (eh... batterycycles. hehehe). These people (and I will be one of them soon) have no problem changing the batteries as they are quite light-weight. Who says, just like notebook batteries, their size won't decrease over time and provide more energy for value?

    My two cents. Thanks.

    Martin

    Jobs iCon 'cause I believe he will invent an iMoped soon!

    0 0
  8. Philip Gray

    Automotive technology is running in reverse.

    Previous poster on the new Volt electric:

    * It will have an electric range of 40 miles but can also run on gas because it has a small, built-in gas generator. (When running on gas, it gets 50 MPG.)

    I drive a 89 Toyota Celica, between the last time I filled the tank and the next to last (three weeks ago) it managed 37mpg in the city. I routinely drive the car with the truck filled, and fully packed with passengers. I expect to beat 40mpg easily on the highway, or in the city using hypermiler driving techniques.

    I paid $500 for the car some years ago, it now has 240,000+ miles on it, and I haven't done much in terms of maintenance. I did buy new tires last month, it was the first time it had been in a shop in years. In comparison, my wife has had three cars over year 2000 in the last five years, and each one has fallen apart in less than three years of ownership.

    Please, someone tell me why my 19 year old car cost less, breaks less, gets greater gas mileage, and performs better than 90+% of the cars on the road, including the new electric models. Why am I getting better actual mileage in the city than the Prius? When the engine finally does fail, most likely around 400,000+ miles, I'll probably shove a electric motor in the thing.

    There may have not been a conspiracy about the electric cars, but the car manufacturers are surely not doing the consumers any favors. I'm glad to see Aptera, Zap, the BugE, and other vehicles starting to show up on the scene. Maybe something will finally happen and the car dealers will take notice.

    0 0
  9. Mother Hubbard
    Boffin

    You've all missed the point .. er .. points ..

    For starters, this is a marketing problem; when was the last time you saw Arnold Schwartznsomethingorother (aka: "Dutch") in the south American jungle, smokin' a big-arse cuban cigar and heaving orders out to his crew from the driver's side of a two-door electric vehicle? It just isn't cricket.

    Then there is just big arses; the average American has two chins, four stomachs and three arses - roughly the equivalent of two middle-aged Parisians with a full set of matching holiday luggage, all squeezed snugly into a brand-name jogging outfit. There's a reason these people buy SUVs, and *is* because they're all-American. No Texan wants to drive with a gear-shift in their jixy.

    To top it all off; until the US knock-off a decent Jeremy Clarkson clone, then they'll never understand the essence of *selling* a car. Lets face it, the American version of a "channel" is equivalent to the European process for making Foie Gras, and until they get a genuine geezer into the selling process, the consumer will be forever condemned to buy on cabin features and paint colour, or the sheer glossyness of the brochure.

    0 0
  10. Mark Hartman

    Hummers vs. Hybrids

    The statement by some that electrics are just as polluting as cars that burn gas is dead wrong. Even with catalytic assistance, electric power is much more efficient, even coming from a grid comprised of coal-burning power sources. Factor in some renewable assistance such as wind and hydroelectric (as we enjoy here in Washington State), and it's no contest.

    The wider issue is that we've got --what? -- 8 billion humans using ever-increasing amounts of crude oil. Who is foolish enough to believe the supply of oil with last more than another few decades, and at exponentially escalating prices per gallon?

    Finding the replacement for oil will, in fact, REQUIRE a lot of oil. Continuing the status quo will push us back into the dark ages that much sooner. Put that in your Hummer and smoke it.

    0 0
  11. Rick Damiani

    EV-1 - experement that ended, not a solution

    If my lifestyle choices don't match your lifestyle choices then it's my choices that are wrong? Things are a lot farther apart here in the western US than they are in Europe.

    The real problem with pure-electric vehicles is that they don't eliminate pollution, they export it. The EV-1, when it was running off of Los Angeles power, was doing so by burning coal in Arizona. If you think that's green, you've got really funny ideas about what green means. Factor in transmission losses, thermal, gearing, and storage losses in the EV-1, thermal and conversion losses in the recharging arrangements, and thermal losses at the plant, and you've got a pretty inefficient way to move one or two people (with no luggage, mind you) around while introducing the fine people of Arizona to smog and soot.

    What would a scalable solution look like? With current tech? I don't think there is one, actually. Converting a sizable fraction of the current vehicle fleet to EVs could easily double the load on the already over-stressed power grid. With fission and fusion off the table and all the useful rivers already in use, I don't know where that power is gonna come from. Biofuels, with the possible exception of some algae that Shell is working on, are actually more troublesome than coal (look up ocean dead zone for one reason). And don't even start with solar cells. Toxic waste from the manufacturing process and with energy break-even times of 5 to 10 years mean that's even dumber than using corn to make fuel.

    Until something can be worked out, the best bet seems to be to stretch what we have. That means oil-fired hybrids with electrical drive trains. The EV-1 was nothing more than a way to see if an electrical drive train was fesable. It wasn't meant to be a solution, because it *can't* be a solution.

    0 0
  12. TeeCee Gold badge

    @Matt

    "Engine braking is a useful technique, as practised by Police response drivers, but boy does hit the fuel bill hard"

    Wow, where have you been? That's just soo last century.

    Take a look at the fuel consumption meter on just about any modern, fuel injected car fitted with same. Now take your foot off the throttle without depressing the clutch. Note how the consumption drops to zero. Yes folks, the electronics turn the fuel off when it's not required. Clever really, but a bit old hat these days. Engine braking has cost sod all in fuel consumption since EFi became ubiquitous.

    As for the GM EV1, what killed that was it was a fugly POS. Also, while being built from the floor up as an electric car, it retained the conventional transmission and drive layout (presumably to save a few shekels by using an existing corporate "platform"). A stunningly awful design which richly deserved to sink without trace. Occam's razor says that this, rather than some convoluted conspiracy of right-wing lizards and space gnomes, is the right answer.

    0 0
  13. James
    Go

    Extra Weight = Safety Stuff

    Spot on. Its worth pointing out that a significant proportion of the extra mass added to cars, accounting for the stagnation of mpg figures despite increasing engine efficiencies, is due to all the extra safety feature that the consumer and regulators demanded.

    0 0
  14. David Evans

    Lies, damn lies and...

    There are a lot of people here making off the cuff comments about the relative "cradle to grave" impact of internal combustion v. electric cars, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of actual facts; for instance, is it easier to make a power station (even a hydrocarbon power station) "green" (filters, carbon sequestration etc.) than it is to make make millions of IC cars more efficient? Or not? Do the economics of electric vehicles change with scale? Does it make more economic sense to invest in public transport and keep personal transport out of cities altogether? I see a lot of opinions and vested interests but very little on the way of objective research by people WITHOUT an axe to grind. Where's the science?

    All the other stuff is just marketing; even Americans can be persuaded out of their SUVs and trucks if it makes economic sense, in exactly the same way they were persuaded IN to trucks in the first place if necessary (through regualatory effects; Americans drive trucks because they're cheap, and they're cheap because of legislation that exempts them from a lot of car-related safety and emissions regs. Its not rocket science to work out incentives for electric if the will is there).

    0 0
  15. Corrine

    @Steve Todd

    Drive more than 500 miles in a day, no. Drive 350 to the ass end of nowhere that only just got electric lights, then drive back Sunday, yes.

    0 0
  16. Anonymous Coward
    Boffin

    Downsizing expectations could help...

    Many commentors here seem to have the idea that there is a choice between small, efficient cars and large, inefficient ones; for those, here's a concept. I once owned a 1981 VW Quantum/Passat wagon turbodiesel. Got me up to 105 mph (with a bit of a run-up), had enough space for a family holiday and then some, and got me 55 to 60 mpg (american) if driven sanely. I'd still have it if rising repair costs hadn't made it too expensive to maintain after 15 years and 450,000 miles.

    The problem most people, not just in the US, have is that they not only want big cars, they want their SUVs to behave like race cars. That means they want grossly over-engined cars. In the US, there are very few places where one is allowed to go faster than 85 mph; who needs a car that goes 160?

    I'm going to keep out of the energy source debate here because I don't have the numbers for an informed opinion, but I will say that much greater fuel efficiency is possible, has been possible for decades, but with many brands, just plain is not offered even as an option. Stick with the smaller engines; they'll get you there and back, too. At half the cost or less.

    0 0
  17. Frank Bough
    Stop

    I'm only trying to help you Roland

    "I live in Illinois, and with the winter weather and all it's simply not an option to drive around in a small car all the time. Ground clearance, greater distances between point A and B compared to Europe. Please do not try to compare the driving situation of the Netherlands or England (or anywhere in Europe) to driving in the US. Please take a look at a map, and see what the difference in scale is between these countries."

    Oh God, not this tired old garbage again. Roland, fire up your Google Earth and have a look at Europe, you'll find that it's nearly the same size as the US, and with a LARGER population, a MORE extreme range of climates and MORE disparate lifestyles. Just like Americans, we MAINLy live in or around major cities, just like Americans, MOST of us own and drive private cars. Driving across Spain is very much like driving across the American SW, Sweden, Norway et al are very much like the American NW, France, Benelux, Britain and Germany are very much like the American NE - Italy like the SE etc etc. The Canaries and Azores are even a passable substitute for Hawaii.

    We have the same problems, and the same solutions will be applicable. It's merely ATTITUDES (and the Atlantic) that separate us.

    0 0
  18. Anonymous Coward
    Stop

    Does gas magically appear at the station?

    Sure, burning coal to generate electricity is only x% efficient, transmitting it is y% efficient, etc. etc.

    But let's do an apples-to-apples comparison here. How much energy is expended pumping oil out of the ground, transporting it from point A to B to C to D to barrels to an oil carrier to a pipeline etc., refining it, etc.?

    What we're talking about is called "ground to wheel" efficiency and people debate it a lot but electric vehicles almost always win.

    0 0
  19. Karl Lattimer

    fuel vs. engine efficiency

    It is true that hydrocarbon fuels contain a lot more energy than you can get into a battery. However electric motors are more or less 100% efficient... I'd like to see that kind of efficiency in a petrol engine... That would give you something like 100mpg!

    0 0
  20. Stephen Ware
    Thumb Up

    Re Does gas magically appear at the station?

    'But let's do an apples-to-apples comparison here. How much energy is expended pumping oil out of the ground, transporting it from point A to B to C to D to barrels to an oil carrier to a pipeline etc., refining it, etc.?'

    so right...

    And as I stated in my last post its a lot easier to clean up a network of power stations than millions of cars with lots of invididual companies constantly sqealing foul every time new emission legislation is proposed.

    There is so much FUD going on around this thread its unbelievable...

    One other point that nobody has mentioned is that we are in the first generation of Electric vehicles. We are at the equivalent of the early part of the century on internal combustion terms. If as much money was poured into battery and or other technologies (i.e maybe not exclusively electric) as current engine design has enjoyed over the century then efficiencies would be vastly increased. This thread would then be regarded as laughable

    0 0
  21. Trygve Henriksen
    Thumb Up

    What about the UNSEEN costs?

    There are now battery/recharge technology that allows you to recharge the batteries in 5 - 10 minutes, which means the EV can be equal to the gas guzzler also on the petrol station...

    Anyway, people mention that there are gas stations 'everywhere'?

    What about the 'hidden' cost to the environment by all those big rigs spewing diesel fumes when they transport the gas to those stations?

    Start adding that to the 'fuel efficiency' calculations...

    An electric recharge station is cheaper to put up, with no danger of exploding(unless the cars use Sony batteries... ) so can be located ANYWHERE there's a power grid.

    In fact, there's no reason they couldn't be combined with parking lots at fast-food joints(Americans would probably love that.. 'want a recharge with that?') or the local grocery store...

    Just park your car, swipe your ATM card and puch the code, plug in the cord, then go for that burger.

    Incidentally, the first model of the Citroën 2CV did 80MPG(not certain if it was US or UK Gallons). Not bad for a motorized bedstead...

    0 0
  22. Anonymous Coward
    Flame

    Conservation of Energy

    Conservation of Energy is what allows regenerative braking to suck back your electric cars kinetic energy into the battery. I've not yet seen a petrol engine squirt out fuel when cranked.

    Not useful on motorway and other long distance trips but useful as hell on urban driving, where that limited range hardly matters and gas powered driving is at its worst.

    0 0
  23. A Bairstow
    Flame

    Missing the point...

    I think this article misses the point that the oil companies have a huge grip on the car market and are literally controlling companies like GM.

    Alternative, cleaner, renewable fuel is a scientific possibility which has not be explored for a reason- it doesnt make as much money and certainly makes no money for the oil companies.

    I thought Who Killed The Electric Car? was a pretty sensationalist movie, but altogher highlights how the new global economy (i.e. capitalism) works.

    I don't give a rats ass about a stupid electric car, but I do care about pollution levels and cheaper, cleaner fuels.

    As for hydrogen fuel cells etc which the Bush administration fully backs, the benefits for them are obvious. They get to install and profit from a new fuel industry, where as electricity already exists and has its stakeholders.

    0 0
  24. Anonymous Coward
    Pirate

    Has this been said?

    Face facts.

    1. To the American general population most want huge hulking beasts that roar and go really, really fast, in excess if possible. The words "Super Size Me" come to mind.

    2. To the Corporate Entities with their fingers in this huge pie it's about money. Nothing else, just money.

    0 0
  25. Matt Bryant Silver badge
    Coat

    Nuke 'em!

    Of course, all those electrickery cars get a whole lot more carbon-friendly if they are powered from nuclear grid rather than nasty coal-fired stations..... Lol, I bet that one has the Greenpeckers in a fit!!

    0 1
  26. Steve Todd

    @Corrine

    I realise that there are places in the US of A that are still worshiping fire gods, but if Outer Bum Fluff (or whereever the heck it was that you drove to) has electric lights then they also have electric power, from which you could have recharged an electric car.

    You can site more and more wild and obscure examples of where 500 miles on a charge isn't enough, but in practice 99.99999 of all drivers will be able to live and drive within that limit. The remaining fraction can use hybrid petrol/electric cars that use the petrol engine only to generate electric power (and thus can be tuned to run cleanly and efficiently at a single speed).

    0 0

  27. This post has been deleted by its author

  28. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Aside

    I read a biography of Edison. He understood what he was up against when introducing the electric light bulb. Basically, it was: infrastructure. There just wasn't any. So he had to invent, manufacture and sell: generators, transmission lines, fuse boxes, wall switches, wall outlets, bulb fixtures, etc. He was a tireless promoter, as he was competing with other light sources: gas, oil, carbon arc, candle, etc. So in the electric car case, one (but not the only one) obstacle is infrastructure.

    0 0
  29. Roland
    Unhappy

    I stand corrected -- also a couple of things off-topic

    Ah, still trying to get used to the gallons, fahrenheit, ounces and all that... So now I find out that the US gallon is different from the UK gallon, too! Argh!

    Anyways, it's probably all about options that are offered:

    - would like to drive a diesel car over here in the US. Diesel is about 40 - 60 dollar cents more expensive compared to the sludge they call 'regular' here.

    - it's impossible to have only one car here in the US. Coming from Europe, trust me, we've tried for one year. Outside of the main / big cities, there's absolutely no useful public transportation infrastructure. All that they have (around Chicago) is going to be downsized, because of growing costs.

    - This morning it was around -3 fahrenheit (so would be roughly -20 celcius). Haven't done any research on how the batteries take this kind of temperatures. Does anyone know?. Of course, the solution would be a heated garage, but that kinda defeats the purpose ;-)

    - about the road conditions: i don't know if it's comparable. All i know is that the roads are being cut open by the snow plows, salt, high temperatures during the summer. And i'm also talking about the highways / interstates. Traveled a lot around Europe, but never have seen so many problems as I have here in Illinois. so yes, you will look for a more sturdy (looking?) car, which means a bigger car

    Slightly off-topic, but to call the V70 a 7 seater... Maybe with the small kids way in the back ;-)

    Which opens up a whole other topic: load / weight limits on cars. Funny, couple of months ago I read an article about how the 'standard' American has grown in size (no, only in circumference and weight, not in length ;-), and that when you load up a car with four 'standard' Americans, the car would be above its legal load limit. People started panicking about what this would do for their insurance, in case they would get in an accident.

    Which in turn will start another thread about how 'safe' small cars are in the US... Sounds like a good idea for a new TV show. Let's call it Ultimate Car Fights</sarcasm>

    And then my last remark: please start designing cars for people that are 6ft4 and taller. I'm 6-6, and having a hard time finding a car that can fit me properly!

    0 0
  30. Anonymous Coward
    Go

    Love to have one...

    I'd love to have a small electric car to commute back and forth to work, especially since I live in a "municipal power" town where we have extraordinarily low electric rates. The only thing that would concern me is how much of the 50-80 mile range will be left when I am running the heater a full blast to keep my nose from freezing off in the 0 degree F (~-20 C) air.

    BTW, those of who really know what is going on know that the true reason we don't have electrics or hydrogen cars has nothing to do with the science, but all to do with power. As the Bushes are known to be part of the 11 families that rule the world (also called the Illuminary) they have done everything in their power to prevent new technology from being developed and thus upsetting the status quo. In fact, the recent activities in the Middle East were not to secure sources of foreign oil, but actually just the opposite, to make sure that there were fewer sources and that the prices would go up, thus propelling those families into even more powerful conditions. The only reason Iraq was chosen as a target and not some other country is that the Hussein family was getting to powerful and threatening the other Illuminary families. The evidence for this is quite powerful: Two ME countries were controlled by Hussein's. :)

    I'd share my real name, but I am afraid that I might be taken for a one-way trip in a black van......

    0 0
  31. John Daniel
    Alert

    Article sidesteps the point

    While I agree that the electric car fiasco in California was due more to economics than to a conspiracy, this article seems to me to be counter-productive. Yes, the film may have heaped more glory on the EV1 than it deserved, but the real issue is still the future. *If* we could actually recover 80 to 90% of the energy in fossil fuels there might remain a case for internal combustion engines for many years to come...as we know, the very best of them still waste 60% of the energy contained in their fuel - diesels are roughly 30% more efficicient, but both still are way behind an electric motor. The power grid is already in place, and can (or could) already support a huge number of electric vehicles. Every one that rolls down the road chips away at our dependence on mideast oil (and all the unpleasantness that goes along with our intense involvement in that region) - it takes away one more tailpipe spewing CO2 and sulfur dioxide - meanwhile, it would allow most of us to drive as we do now for no more than $8 to $12 per month's worth of electricity - instead of the $60 to $80+ per month spent now on gasoline at $3 per gallon....and these figures are very conservative. (based on 100 miles driving per week) Even if tailpipe emissions and global warming don't concern you, it's hard to ignore the potential savings over time!

    0 0
  32. Frank Bough
    Happy

    Roland...

    If you've really 'travelled a lot around Europe' then how come you never noticed how big it is? When we drive our car to the Alps to go skiing in the winter, it's about 800 miles - that's quite comparable with someone living in Chicago driving to Colorado for their winter holiday. When we drive down to Italy, France, Croatia or Spain for our summer sun, we clock up about 3000miles for the round trip - doesn't seem all that small to me.

    0 0
  33. John Werner

    Fuel Cells - Not Just Hydrogen

    @ Nexox

    Electric vehicles are just a bad idea. The best foreseeable replacement for gas cars would be a fuel cell, since those can theoretically be pushed to nearly 100% efficient. For now the hydrogen has to come from electricity, but that is a highly efficient process, so if people can figure out how to store and ship hydrogen while pushing fuel efficiency, we could see a 1:1 competition with petrol efficiency, and potentially reasonably similar range, depending on how the storage comes along.

    Why is it that everyone who says Fuel Cells thinks Hydrogen. There are other fuel cells. In fact, a small part of a very large company here in the US is developing a fuel cell that is powered not by Hydrogen, but by Hydrocarbon based fuels. There are a couple of distinct advantages of this, both related to how to produce and distribute hydrogen.

    The major drawback to the technology to use hydrocarbon based fuels (Diesel, gasoline -- or Petrol for you UK'ers, BioFuel, etc) is the weight of the fuel cell assembly. So far, they are not making in-roads into passenger vehicles. Where they are doing well is in large trucks. Recent anti-idling laws have posed a problem for long haul truckers who used to idle their engines to provide electricity (and HVAC) for their cabs while they crawled into their sleeping quarters and got a few hours of shut-eye. Hydrocarbon fueled fuel cells solve this quite well. The extra weight isn't much of a problem, and they can tap into the already existent fuel supply on the truck.

    0 0
  34. Will Leamon

    Dear Brits

    Africa just called and asked if you, the Dutch, and the French wouldn't mind cleaning your shit up there before bitching about what the Americans do to their spot on earth.

    Oh and the Americans said they would love to address this situation but still haven't quite cleared up the mess from 400 hundred years of slave economics that they were born with.

    Cheers.

    0 0
  35. Glenn
    Gates Horns

    Professor of Bull$hit

    Should be the author's degree, spare me the "the Hummer is efficient `` nonsense. Panasonic was building a factory to produce batteries for electric cars when GM sold the Ovonic (NiMh) patents to Texaco-Chevron and was told (court order) that they could not afford to license the battery production.

    0 0
  36. Jason The Saj
    Thumb Up

    What the Volt gets right...

    GM EV1

    - unfeasible for mass market (GM is not Ferrari, they only build for mass-market)

    - expensive to build (estimates were as high as $80,000 per car)

    - decent range but no ability to go beyond that range

    - limited seating

    - all this would be reduced if you added all the items now common to many vehicles: stereo & entertainment systems, added safety features (traction control, multiple airbags, GPS units, so on and so on)

    And yes, some will try to exclaim the market feasibility of the EV1. But let's look at Honda's Insight which could get up to 70mpg. It was a two-seater like the EV1 but without most of the EV1's other limitations. And it FAILED!!!! Honda pulled the model (even though it had the best MPG in the USA) because it was unprofitable and unsustainable.

    Chevy Volt

    - GM has addressed nearly ever issue that hindered the EV1

    - 4 seats (and while this may not seem important to you, this makes a significant difference for families. It means "car seat" versus no "car seat".)

    - no range limit. Volt can do a 40 mile commute on just electric. A 60 mile commute (which is what I drive every day to work currently) at 150mpg. Or a 600+ commute and a refill of the generator.

    - all the modern conveniences and safety features we the consumers demand for today

    - adaptive platform can use a gasoline, diesel or fuel cell generator

    So, where as most people keep posting that the Volt offers nothing over the EV1. You're very very wrong! Twice the capacity means the Volt can function as a family car. Something neither the EV1 nor Honda Insight could do. No being stranded - the generator provides means to re-charge from any gas station available nation wide.

    Denying the importance of these two factors is merely dogmatic religionism and irrationality. The 4 seat factor alone is why the lower mileage (44mpg) Toyota Prius succeeded over the (60-70mpg) Honda Insight. It's why when I started a new job that required me to commute and decided to acquire a hybrid. I wound up choosing a Toyota Prius w/ 73K @$9,000 over a Honda Insight w/only 50K for $10,000. We had a baby on the way. And that fact would have made us have to drive my Dodge Durango everywhere the whole family went. So we bought the Prius.

    FYI, regarding the Durango. It gets 20mpg on the hwy. It is a tow vehicle and I was also working from home at the time. Now I have two vehicles, both are very efficient at what they do. (Try carrying 7-passengers and towing a loader trailer with a Prius.)

    - Saj

    PS - "Please, someone tell me why my 19 year old car cost less, breaks less, gets greater gas mileage, and performs better than 90+% of the cars on the road."

    Because it has less safety features & less accessories.

    BTW the MPG ratings have changed over the years. The newer tests reduced the score. So many vehicles rated 35mpg 10-20 yrs ago would score lower by today's standards.

    0 0
  37. Elam

    The electric dream and £200 to fill up your tank?

    I own a Honda Civic IMA Hybrid that recharges it's battery during braking. (During braking It feels very similar to a tube train slowing down) The power stored in the battery pack is then used to assist the 1300cc Gasoline Direct Injection engine during acceleration. It works very well giving your the torque of a diesel between 200 and 2000 RPM. When the battery charge is depleted you really notice the loss of power. However, the bottom line is this only gains you around 10mpg or so.

    The big issue here is weight. It is ridiculous to lug around two or more tons of SUV when a 500 kilo two or four seater - think original Fiat 500 or mini - could do the same job and achieve 100 mpg or more with a modern high efficiency engine.

    I've been mulling over the issue of the cost of fuel as I sit, with the engine in auto stop mode, in yet another traffic jam on the M25. At the moment it costs around £60 to fill up my Civic. Would I stop using the car freely hen it cost £100 a tank? Or even £200? My conclusion is that I would really stop driving without considering other options when it reached £100. I hear people complaining about road tax at £115 but it really won't be long before a single tank of fuel costs that much.

    0 0
  38. Roland
    Happy

    Re: Roland...

    Well, tis funny, I asked that myself. I think it's because the landscape is not as varied as in Europe. Also in Europe the scale of things is probably hidden because of the changes in scenery, different languages.

    I miss Europe... and French wine, and Spanish ham, and German pear schnapps, and Dutch coffee... *sniff*

    Last summer did a road trip from Chicago to Yellowstone Natl. Park. (yup, around 3500 miles) Remember the movie 'Dances with wolves'? That's the kind of scenery you'll see for one whole day of driving (roughly 800 miles. American ones, on land ;-)

    Funny thing about going green vs. more power: a comparison between the new Toyota Camry vs the Chevrolet Tahoe hybrid / flexfuel... Both had the same city MPG... Here's a link: http://www.chicagotribune.com/classified/automotive/chi-mxa1216matejadec16,0,7572566.column?track=rss

    So that's another trick the car designers are playing on people over here is that 'automatic switch-off of 2 - 4 cylinders'. Guess what? This happens only when you stay below 55 mph on the highway. And of course no one drives 55mph on the highways.

    0 0
  39. Rick Brasche
    Stop

    Save the planet, ride a motorcycle

    but don't mention the massively increased efficiency that petrol powered bikes have enjoyed over all cars for over 60 years. Rant on about how a toxic battery powered go-kart like the Prius is saving the world, but do everything you can to legislate bikes off of the roads. I'm looking at you, San Francisco. And the rest of California.

    Even without catalytics, their total amount of nasty emissions are greatly reduced compared to even the smallest street-legal 4 wheel vehicles. My 07 FJR1300, (1.3L or around 80 cubes to you V twin guys) *with* catalytics still gets me a measured (actual riding conditions based on measured mileage and fuel input over a six month period) 40 MPG. This is in start and stop traffic, as well as unreasonably fast highway sprints of over 100MPH. On long trips of highway-only at 80+MPH I measure over 50 MPG. If I were to drive reasonably (remember all those 70's gas saving tips!) I could embarass the green-weenie "SMART Car" for mileage-and it only has a 1000cc (1L) motor.

    But it's not about saving the earth, as Honda found out. It's about advertising the size of your Green Member. (they didn't sell enough "hybrids" because they looked too normal). It's about control and forcing people to buy things that Big Government can control. Remember the artifically controlled 'rolling blackouts' of a couple years ago in CA? If there was a true "power crisis", how come state and city officials could pick and choose when and where to shut down power? None of the big businesses were affected, nor were residences in more affluent parts of town.

    How do you drive an electric car when the State decides to "save the planet" by cutting power to your neighborhood? Charge it with a few verses of Kumbaya and a handful of Carbon Credit Coupons?

    I noticed over the years that SF removed the ability for scooters and motorcycles to park at greatly reduced rates on the street, removing yet another economic incentive to going two-wheeled. They don't even give tax breaks to 50cc Vespas getting 100MPG but they'll issue tax breaks to "hybrid" SUV's. Increased legislation aimed at motorcycles include laws saying you cannot install anything on your motorcycle that isn't done at the "licensed" dealer. Nor can you work on it yourself if these laws pass. All for "public safety" (Honor Harrington, anyone?) of course.

    For those of us lacking the money and parking space to own two full cars, buying or leasing some electric toy (that can't be charged at home by any apartment dweller either) for short trips or grocery runs is a pipe dream that the elitist rich love to use to force people to stay untravelled and controlled. "Let them eat cake!" will not convince anyone to buy an EV. However, an inexpensive mid 80's or even late 90's metric cruiser with under 700cc's can be dressed up with enough cargo space for short trips and grocery runs and still run well under $3K (usually you'll come well under that). And in CA, riding is almost year round. In the rest of the country, any winter weather you couldn't ride in would kill the battery of an EV anyways. Or you'd spend a lot extra in energy for the heated garage...

    the Green movement has become the biggest con-job and snake-oil sale of the century. People, government, and politicians are out to rip people off, screw over the weak and shaft the gullible all for their own power and money. Not caring that they're not only causing more environmental damage, but irreparably damaging the efforts of a very few actually doing the right thing.

    Case in point-local car dealer wants to sell you a "new" SMART car. The 07 year SMART car is the first to be reliable enough and safe enough to sell in the US. This local dealer doesn't tell you that they're selling "converted" older model SMARTS (converted at a premium so you're paying over $24 THOUSAND for the go-kart) instead of the 07s which will sell at closer to $14K. Take into account that the previous years of SMART were so unreliable and such poor build quality the company went out of business in Europe and was bought out by Daimler-Chrysler. This "dealer" (also selling ZAP street legal golf carts-read up on the shady activity that ZAP's in trouble for) fails to mention that little fact, hoping to lure people in who've seen the small press blitz for the 07's and sell them a vastly inferior and overpriced product.

    This becomes a serious problem when it goes from a "buyer beware" situation when CA government gets involved with either taxpayer-subsidized tax breaks or even forced purchase by making larger cars "illegal" or taxed separately. Then, government is forcing people to get scammed, and the scammers operating with government blessing.

    Hybrid systems allow multiple charging options and allows the public independence. Proper electric car design using current technology can give us superior performance. Sell people a fair deal, home biodiesel generators, or range-extending generator trailers, and a car that costs close to it's petrol competition. Sell electrics on performance (I've driven both the EV1 and Honda's EV Plus extensively-it's fun to spin the tires on the Impact!) and you'll make inroads. You'll go farther than the con artists even if it takes a bit longer to make the huge profit.

    And the truth to "who killed the electric car?" the Lawyers, and the lawsuit-happy, irresponsible society they infest. That's the true reason the Impacts had to be destroyed. Anyone who refuses to believe that is a big enough fool to buy into the rest of this BS "conspiracy", probably also believes in the AGW religion and is a "911 Truth-er" too.

    0 0
  40. Anne van der Bom

    Better than most people think

    To all the electric car sceptics: The electric car is an exceptionally good idea for the following reasons:

    1. Mechanical simplicity. No oil changes, leaks of whatever kinds of fluids, worn out belts, clutches, gearboxes. An electric car probably wouldn't need any service at all except for tyre change. Even brake pads can be excluded as an electric car would do electric (regenerative) braking most of the time.

    2. Less noise.

    3. Better performance. Smoother ride.

    4. Less time spent charging than filling up your gas tank. In practice, most people will charge their electric car overnight at home, and will hardly ever have to stop at a charging station.

    It seems a lot of the posters here have probably lived under a rock for the past 5 years. Battery technology is improving fast. Long charge times are a thing of the past, lithium batteries are available that can be charged up to 80% in 10 minutes.

    The battery may be heavier than a full gas tank but you will save weight on the engine + drive train. And because of regenerative braking, the extra weight doesn' t increase fuel consumption as much as it would in a conventional car.

    People saying that an electric car is less efficient clearly don't know what they are talking about. At first glance it seems more efficient to burn fuel in a car directly, instead of burning it in a powerplant, then converting it to electricity and use that to drive the car. The well-to-wheel efficiency of a modern car is below 20%. Modern powerplants can reach 50% efficiency. Even with the grid and battery losses, the overall efficiency of an electric car is better.

    The environmental impact of the chemicals in the battery is greatly exaggerated. The risks can be easily contained. This world is awash in batteries: phones, laptops, mp3-players, toys, power tools, shavers. The list goes on and on. These large numbers of small batteries pose a far greater risk of ending up in the environment than smaller numbers of large batteries. The disposal, dismantling and recycling of cars is an industry already responsible for handling nasty stuff (lead-acid batteries, oil, brake fluid). So with the right laws and proper oversight, car batteries should pose no threat at all to the environment.

    I would say the only thing that currently holds back the electric car is price. The batteries are simply too expensive, by a factor of 5 I would guess. Most other arguments are nonsense.

    By the way, the electric car will not arrive with a bang. My guess is that the Prius will become more electrical with each generation. The current Prius is a gasoline car with some electric stuff. Word has it that the next model will have plug-in capability with an all-electric range of about 20 km. This will improve with each new model, until one day the gasoline engine will become a range extender. Then this range extender will become optional. As less and less people see the benefit of spending money on a range extender, what remains in 20-30 years is an all electric Prius. We will get our electric car by evolution not revolution.

    0 0
  41. Ed3

    The oil angle...

    No conspiracy? An oil company obtains the patents for and forces the shutdown of efficient NiMH battery pack manufacturing. Why is this not a conspiracy??

    According to the EPA, the 2002/2003 Toyota RAV4 EV costed around $360/yr in electricity, Compared to the Toyota Prius which is around $900/yr in gasoline, and around $1500 to $2000/yr for the typical conventional sedan.

    The RAV4 had a range of 80 miles on a 5 hour charge. Battery life has been proven to be around 150,000 miles... Why are EVs bad again?

    0 0
  42. Nexox Enigma

    @John Werner

    """Why is it that everyone who says Fuel Cells thinks Hydrogen."""

    I just went there because so far they're the best developed, plus they run cleanest. If you pull energy out of hydrocarbons, the carbon atoms have to go somewhere - probably the atmosphere. At least you could theoretically get a far higher efficiency for a hydrocarbon based fuel cell than an IC engine.

    One point I also forgot to mention about the electric car deal is the grid, which is generally in a state of near collapse. At least here in California it is. If a significant portion of the state/country started charging their cars from the grid while they run their A/C at full tilt all day the electric companies would be in trouble, at least until they could build some more baseline capacity plants, which is generally a slow process.

    0 0
  43. Anne van der Bom

    @Brasche

    hahahahahahaha. Thanks. It was hilarious!

    0 0
  44. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Lateral thinking

    I'm no crystal gripping tree hugging hippy, but if I were that and bright too, I'd say that you lose roughly 25% of the energy between the trasmission and the road in the rubber. Therefore: what we need is solid wheels.

    / ponch and horse-blanket are in that yurt

    0 0
  45. Bounty
    Flame

    stuff

    Honda Van for mom and 2 kids + groceries etc, Toyota pickup for camping, furniture et, dad. Not getting 50mpg here. Not really being excessive either. I'd love to have a 3rd vehicle, say a 10,000$ ultra cheap electric vehicle just for going to work. But since that's not gonna happen for a while, I'll have to keep waiting. I'd like if they would continue integrating hybrid tech into everywhere that's effecient. Those of you who are really zealous about green tech, should get together and build a green car company. If you can build a green car for under 20k $ with a 200+ mile range with a fast recharge and/or gas generator you would do well. I'm looking forward to plug in hybrids, and greener tech and hardier infrastructure on the power generation end. Maybe solar roofs on all houses? I'm all for killing off the desert tortise if it will = survivable global temperature for my grandchildren. We could dump any toxic spilloff from solar panel manufacturing or nuclear in Nevada, western Pakistan and ?

    0 0
  46. Noah Monsey
    Go

    The movie was biased.

    Truthfully, the movie was very biased. By the time that I saw the movie General Motors had a very successfull fuel cell project under way. Currently most car maufacturers have fuel cell projects in progress. It sure seems that a lot of the comments about have been using out dated information.

    http://www.fuelcells.org/news/updates.html

    There are fuel vehicles cell being leased to the public in California.

    The Toyota Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicle (FCHV) recently completed a 2,300 mile trek from Fairbanks, Alaska to Vancouver, British Columbia proving that fuel cells operate in extremely cold climates.

    Most automobile manufacturers will be mass producing fuel cell vehicles in the next couple of years. The fuel cell vehicle trials have been conducted for several years. Now that the trials have gone through several generations, fuell cells are ready for general use by the public.

    Some companies have complained about the lack of fueling infastructure. The are a small number of hydrogen fueling stations throughout the world. The automobile manufacturers are liiting sales of fuel cell vehicles to locations where fueling infrastructure is available.

    Some of the recent automobile shows have shown fuel cell vehicles. There have also been some articles about how normal the fuel cell vehicles are.

    Please stop being so pessimistic about the future of electric vehicles. The will be coming over the next couple of years. The only difference between the GM EV1 and the full cell vehicles like the Honda FCX Clarity , Ford Focus FCV, GM Equinox FCV is that the fuel cell electric vehicle have made it past the early trials to the point that automobile manufacturers are ready to start mass production.

    We still have the problem of the infrastructure not existing yet. With the Honda "Energy Station IV" you can generate the hyrdogen at home. California is one of several places that have subsidized the building of a few hygrogen stations to get the transition to hydrogen fuel cell cars started.

    Noah Monsey

    0 0
  47. MIc
    Go

    Where is the street legal four wheeler and Segway-itis

    So one problem I see with the EV1 is the same problem I see with the SmartCar and the Segway (which I call segway-itis) and that is it looks lame as hell. The segway never lived up to its dream because you look like such a dork riding, and don't underestimate the power of vanity combined with one's insecurities to 86 a environmently friendly product like the EV1.

    On to my next Point : The street legal four wheeler.

    Motor cycles are great! the Kick ass they are fast, they are cheap (relatively speaking), they get great MPG, they take up way less room on the road, and they put less wear and tear on road surfaces.Simply put: THey have sex appeal, are efficent, and make more efficent use of out very expensive road resources.

    BUT most people do not feel comfortable riding them especially in bad whether and for good reason. Something I think a steet legal quad would solve. Same cool-fator, efficiency, and road foot print but it would be more familiar of a driving experiance for most riders and safer in the rain. Moreover its a slam dunk to produce. No boffinry required!

    http://www.polarisindustries.com/en-us/OurCompany/News/PressReleases/PolarisRevolverConcept.htm

    So maybe we should ask "Who Killed the street legal Four-Wheeler?"

    0 0
  48. Jim Noeth

    I can hold my proverbial tongue no longer

    There's another angle that I haven't seen addressed in this lengthy chain of responses. That is that there is a tax built into the cost of gasoline, diesel, petrol, etc. that (in the United States anyway) helps to pay for the roads (and line some people's pockets). While this can be built into an electrical charging infrastructure, it wouldn't be as effective. If I had an electric car, I could quite easily recharge from the mains in my home. But, it would be pretty impractical for me to manufacture my own gasoline at a reasonable cost. Yes, I know that there are some people who recycle grease from restaurants as a substitute for diesel, but, that's pretty small scale.

    The same problem occurs when vehicles start getting better mileage, the tax revenues drop off. So, it's in the best interest of the government to keep the existing system in place.

    As for me, though, I'll keep on driving my full size pickup truck as I want at least a little protection from those 40 ton (US) monsters that I have to share the road with.

    0 0
  49. Herby

    But what will they do on CSI-Miami?

    Those guys go around everywhere in silly white Hummers and stop the crooks in only an hours time. They could convert to a battery powered goodie and do everything within the time it takes for the battery to be used up. Then they get a week to recharge it. Pretty simple, eh?

    The problem is that nobody is realistic. People buy the vehicle that they want, for whatever reason they want. My mom has a Prius, and while she likes the vehicle for its economy, that isn't the reason she bought it. She bought it because she doesn't need to go to the [gas|petrol] station as often. If there was a Hummer that had a 100 gallon tank (US/UK it really doesn't matter) and would take her as far on a single tank of gas, she would probably use it.

    I have a nice Ford Explorer and since my wife seems to want to fill it up when we go on trips it is quite necessary. While it takes about $65 (this week) to fill it up, one tank of gas will take it from sillycon valley to the "ELLAY" area, and it is easier than taking a plane to travel the same distance (who wants to check bags, and sit idle around airports for silly window dressing security??). Besides I get a vehicle at my destination without renting one.

    Yes, some people will use electric cars and like them. Maybe even me for my 12 mile commute (each way). The big problem is that a vehicle in the USA is an expression of "freedom" and we don't want to give it up.

    p.s. Don't get me started on 100 watt light bulbs. That is another rant.

    0 0
  50. Morely Dotes
    Flame

    This author lies by omission

    The fact is that there were more people clamouring to buy the EV1 than GM ever made cars; the same is true of the Ford Electric Ranger pickup, and the Toyota electric RAV-4.

    The car makers *refused* point-blank to sell the vehicles; it was lease, or nothing, and when the leases expired, the cars reverted to GM's possession, with no possibility of an electric replacement.

    The vast majority of Americans drive less than 50 miles per day; the vast majority of American families also have 2 (or more) cars. An electric commuter vehicle is ideal for economy (cost of operation is roughly one-fifth or less that of a similar-weight vehicle with an internal combustion engine, and may be even better with the current costs of oil products, eliminates pollution problems at the end-user point (it's easier to control pollution on a single, large plant than on millions of tiny ones), and never, ever suffers from a spilled-fuel fire hazard in a crash (no matter what Hollywood tells us in movies, it's almost impossible to make a gas tank explode, but spilled fuel burns quite merrily).

    Electric auto makers other than the major are thriving. Of course, they actually sell cars, and don't field them in a deliberate effort to "disprove" demand.

    Electric cars may also become a means of smoothing peak electric power demands on the grid; please see http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/dn13000-electric-cars-could-act-as-batteries-for-the-energy-grid-.html

    I am a charter member of the National Electric Drag-Racing Association, and I tried to buy every electric vehicle offered by the big auto makers in the past decade or more - and was refused for every one of them.

    0 0

Page:

This topic is closed for new posts.