Sage advice: Avoid the Windows 10 Anniversary Update – it knackers our accounting app • The Register Forums

Wednesday 28th September 2016 06:09 GMT Pascal Monett

"operating system updates end up disabling the framework"

Remind me one thing : .Net is a Microsoft product, right ?

So you're telling me that Microsoft created an update to its OS that knackered one of its own products and couldn't be bothered to find that out in the test phase ?

Does Microsoft really not have a test phase any more ?

I can understand knackering Norton or Avira, everyone gets a kick out of that, but your own product ?

Maybe you should be a little bit less Agile and a bit more thorough ?

"Actually hate Windows 1 0" - welcome to the club.

38 5 Reply
1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 07:09 GMT AMBxx
  
  Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
  
  Anyone know if this is widespread?
  
  No Sage here, but .Net 3.5 still available after Anniversary Update.
  
  2 0 Reply
2. Wednesday 28th September 2016 07:37 GMT K
  
  Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
  
  Whilst I dislike M$ products, I would not lay blame at their door - Its upto each developer to test compatibility with the hosting platform/underlying OS, hence this is Sage's responsibility.
  
  5 40 Reply
  1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 07:46 GMT Dan 55
    
    Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
    
    You write something targeting .NET 3.5 and the OS pulls the rug out from under your feet, but only on certain installations... how are you supposed to test for that?
    
    34 1 Reply
  2. Wednesday 28th September 2016 08:47 GMT alain williams
    
    Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
    
    Its upto each developer to test compatibility with the hosting platform/underlying OS, hence this is Sage's responsibility.
    
    But there is also a responsibility of the OS developer to not break backwards compatibility. With MS this is doubly important since users cannot stop updates from being installed.
    
    MS do not provide ISV early bird reviews of their updates which might allow them to test and identify problems; the best that ISVs can do is, like everyone else, scrabble around to find a fix after an MS update unexpectedly breaks working software.
    
    21 0 Reply
    1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 10:35 GMT mr_souter_Working
      
      Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
      
      "But there is also a responsibility of the OS developer to not break backwards compatibility" - no there actually isn't, they should certainly make sure that users are AWARE that something will no longer be compatible - at least to the extent of putting in the KB article for the anniversary update that .NET 3.5 will be disabled as part of the update. however crApple get away with ditching any sort of backwards compatibility whenever they feel like it - both in the OS and obviously in the hardware
      
      MS have bent over backwards to retain compatibility with everything, and they get roasted for it on a regular basis (after all, do we REALLY need to be able to run 16-bit applications in this day and age?).
      
      so they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
      
      i agree that the MS really seems to be letting the testing phase slide a lot - and i have no intention of moving away from Windows 7 until i replace my main computers (hardware driver issues prevent win10 from working reliably) sometime in the next 2-3 years.
      
      7 4 Reply
      1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 11:42 GMT Paul Crawford
        
        Re: do we REALLY need to be able to run 16-bit applications in this day and age?
        
        In a number of cases - yes. Companies have programs written for the DOS era that do the job perfectly, and have been for donkey's years. Replacing them would bring a whole lot of cost, risk and business interruptions so if there is not a good reason to change them, they don't.
        
        A good reason is something better for the company. Having your OS provider pull things for little reason is not seen as a good reason.
        
        Ironically for many DOS programs (as opposed to Windows 3.1 16-bit stuff) you get better behaviour from dosemu on Linux, and the options (if you need/dare) to allow direct hardware access to certain things.
        
        7 0 Reply
      2. Wednesday 28th September 2016 11:44 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
        
        "MS have bent over backwards to retain compatibility with everything, and they get roasted for it on a regular basis (after all, do we REALLY need to be able to run 16-bit applications in this day and age?)."
        
        To my mind, that's the main reason people continue to use Windows and develop for it. Stuff continuing to work without aggravation is a very good way to keep your installed base happy. When Apple went from 9.2 to 10 there was much wailing and teeth-gnashing because the compatibility mode was, frankly, crap. The XP emulator in 7 was a bit of a PITA too, but an awful lot of stuff continued to work under 7.
        
        5 0 Reply
      3. Wednesday 28th September 2016 13:22 GMT Luna Tick
        
        Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
        
        "no there actually isn't"
        
        Yes, there actually is, here why: Windows now for all intents and purposes removes the ability to control the updates. For most ordinary users what MS says, goes and as such we are getting quite limited in our ability to "keep things going" at our discretion.
        
        For all the MS hate around the globe, Windows is not some play platform, it is the platform the world and especially the business world runs on, and MS built an empire based on that reality. With benefits come responsibilities and that of MS is to make sure that they don't break the world for no good reason.
        
        I don't necessarily think that MS does a bad job of maintaining backwards compatibility, actually it is quite superb which is one of the main reason the world does run on Windows. But because of this, deprecation or compatibility-breaking of long-standing features or frameworks needs to be 1) extremely careful 2) well documented and properly communicated to the development community well in advance, and I'm not talking about some obscure KB article.
        
        9 1 Reply
        
        Wednesday 28th September 2016 19:44 GMT Mage
        
        Re: I don't necessarily think that MS does a bad job of maintaining backwards compatibility,
        
        Till Vista.
        
        From Vista onwards they don't seem to care.
        
        They broke NT3.5 with applications for Win95 specially crafted so they would fail on Win3.x + Win32s. So I think (but may be wrong) that many got NT3.51 free, which fixed that.
        
        Applications I wrote for NT 3.5 still worked on XP, but some few Win3.x and Win9x programs and games needed patches (GST Designworks, DTP, Alpha Centauri), it was less backward compatible compare to NT4 / Win2K. Vista / Win7 were dreadful, even breaking Paint Shop Pro.
        
        WOW & NTVDM used to be quite good, but basically killed with Vista. (The DosBox VM /Emulator though was already better for DOS applications than NTVDM and works on later Windows as well as ARM).
        
        2 0 Reply
        
        Wednesday 28th September 2016 20:21 GMT hplasm
        
        Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
        
        "Windows is not some play platform..."
        
        Citation needed.
        
        0 1 Reply
        
        Thursday 29th September 2016 04:24 GMT Pompous Git
        
        Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
        
        "Windows is not some play platform..."
        
        Citation needed.
        
        Not really. Try running actual productivity software on Linux such as CorelDRAW! Suite and Adobe InDesign. Oh, that's right. I forgot. Businesses' needs are "niche" products. Academic needs? Forget the Oxford English Dictionary and the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Who needs them?
        
        Book publishing annual revenue is ~120 billion Euros per annum. Magazine sales are worth ~100 billion US dollars annually. I'm willing to bet that hardly any of that revenue can be attributed to the oh-so-professional Linux platform. FFS!
        
        1 3 Reply
        
        Thursday 29th September 2016 12:37 GMT Anonymous Coward
        
        Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
        
        That oh so professional Linux platform you mention happens to pretty much run the Internet 24/7, with very few issues. The oh-so pro Windows 10 can't run basic productivity software, or keep a shitty webcam working, or let the audio on your £2.5k designed for Windows 10 HP Elitebook work reliably, or your L2TP VPN which suddenly screws mid-morning. Personally my laptop at home runs Linux and I use it every day, it causes me no issues whatsoever and has plenty of software available for doing real work, feel free to check it out.
        
        1 2 Reply
        
        Thursday 29th September 2016 15:44 GMT Pompous Git
        
        Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
        
        That oh so professional Linux platform you mention happens to pretty much run the Internet 24/7, with very few issues. The oh-so pro Windows 10 can't run basic productivity software,
        
        First, running the Internet isn't going to help very much when what your business entails is laying out pages for publication, or running a vinyl sign-cutter for example. The fact that Apache is vastly more successful than Internet Information Server is completely and utterly irrelevant.
        
        I responded to a comment about Windows, not Windows 10. I have been severely critical of Windows 10 and ran it for less than a day before consigning it to the scrapheap where it belongs. For more than a year since MS screwed me over I have run Linux Mint on three machines not 24/7, but most (95%+) of the time and I'm mostly well pleased with the changeover. But...
        
        There are as I pointed out before no suitable FOSS alternatives for some productivity software. I mentioned here the other day how creating a simple video DVD took the best part of an hour when the same took only a minute using Windows software. Do you really believe customers are going to wear a 15x increase in chargeable time just so you can say "I'm using a professional OS rather than a toy OS"?
        
        This thread is about accounting software. Here in Oz small biz use MYOB a lot. Fortunately, unlike a lot of my software, it runs under WINE just fine. And that's just as well. One of the small businesses I recently suggested try Mint also tried Manager as a possible substitute for MYOB. Everything went swimmingly until she attempted to restore from a backup. Whoopsie. How professional is a package that can't restore its own data? Do you think the taxman is going to believe a dog ate your homework?
        
        I had the same problem with the email client Evolution the other day. It suddenly lost all of my contacts. Restoring from the backup didn't work. Reinstalling and restoring didn't work. Creating a new contacts list doesn't work. Basically it's fucked. I shall try Zimbra and if that doesn't work I'm seriously thinking of canning Mint on my main machine and going back to Windows 7. I might be retired, but I really don't want to have to fart around to get basic things to work. Let's face it, I don't get paid to do this shit these days.
        
        0 0 Reply
  3. Wednesday 28th September 2016 15:22 GMT K
    
    Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
    
    You can't constantly maintain backwards compatibility.. Its one of the reason OS's have become the bloated pieces of.crap they currently are!
    
    Whilst I accept a certain level must be maintained, where something does break, the developer of software than runs on that platform has responsibility for fixing it..
    
    2 4 Reply
3. Wednesday 28th September 2016 07:45 GMT Oengus
  
  Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
  
  Does Microsoft really not have a test phase any more ?
  
  Of course they do. They are called Windows 10 Users...
  
  37 0 Reply
4. Wednesday 28th September 2016 11:09 GMT Wade Burchette
  
  Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
  
  "So you're telling me that Microsoft created an update to its OS that knackered one of its own products and couldn't be bothered to find that out in the test phase ?"
  
  Not uncommon. To date, I have logged 23 Windows 7 updates that interfere with a Microsoft program I use every day.
  
  6 0 Reply
  1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 11:37 GMT sabroni
    
    Re: I have logged 23 Windows 7 updates that interfere with a Microsoft program I use every day.
    
    Tried updating to 10?
    
    2 3 Reply
    1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 14:50 GMT Doctor Syntax
      
      Re: I have logged 23 Windows 7 updates that interfere with a Microsoft program I use every day.
      
      "Tried updating to 10?"
      
      I think he was taking the view that 23 was too many, not too few.
      
      7 0 Reply
5. Wednesday 28th September 2016 12:14 GMT Mark Dempster
  
  Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
  
  Sage isn't an MS product. It's well-enough established in the UK that you'd think one of them would have tested it, though...
  
  2 2 Reply
6. Wednesday 28th September 2016 12:55 GMT Nick Ryan
  
  Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
  
  but, but, but... .net was promised as an end to DLL hell. Also, all .net versions would be forward compatible. So, DLL hell, caused by Microsoft's abject failure to do anything sensible with libraries, for example such terribly difficult to comprehend principles as a standardised version scheme built into the "open library" code, hasn't been fixed by DLL hell x 100 with added registry stupidity built in, or .net/COM as it's otherwise known which is of course the bastard descendent of ActiveX, OLE and DDE before it.
  
  While I'm happy to criticise MS (to be fair, all IT vendors), Sage has some responsibility here as they should code their applications defensively and clearly inform users of any prerequisite failures and give them the information to deal with the problems. Checking for prequisites at install time only is not acceptable. Unfortunately from experience the quality of Sage coding has often left rather a lot to be desired but this isn't helped by Microsoft's VS environment which tends to promote hard linked dependencies without easy and graduated dependency failure handling.
  
  1 5 Reply
7. Thursday 29th September 2016 07:41 GMT Sirius Lee
  
  Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
  
  It is a shame that Microsoft disabled .NET Framework 3.5 by default.
  
  However, version 3.5 is now nearly 10 years old. Almost anything that will run against version 3.5 will run against the current version 4.6.1 - because it's backwards compatible - and for the developer it's a minor config file change to make that happen.
  
  That a commercial software company with the reach of Sage is relying on an ancient (by software standards) version of the .NET Framework is asking for trouble and they - or more specifically their clients - seem to have got it in spades.
  
  By all mean, berate Microsoft. But don't hold back your ire for the software company either.
  
  I imagine the argument Sage will advance is that .NET 3.5 is installed on more machines. This may be true but its not difficult include with your software's installer a module to update the version of the framework. That may leave people still running Windows XP - unsupported now for half a decade - but is that really Microsoft's problem?
  
  Not in my opinion. In my opinion the blame for this issue lies with Sage.
  
  2 1 Reply
  1. Thursday 29th September 2016 12:57 GMT Hans 1
    
    Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
    
    >Almost anything that will run against version 3.5 will run against the current version 4.6.1
    
    Almost ... well, at the very least, Sage won't.
    
    Had this discussion on here more than once, .Net apps are supposed to be forward compatible, on paper, yes ...
    
    0 0 Reply
  2. Thursday 29th September 2016 16:12 GMT Missing Semicolon
    
    Re: "operating system updates end up disabling the framework"
    
    Don't forget that Sage had no version that worked with Windows10 for many monthas after the official launch of Win10. Even though the previews had been available for months before that. They really had not started until enough customers complained.
    
    0 0 Reply
Wednesday 28th September 2016 06:17 GMT Anonymous Coward

C'mon, son!

Sage - "Testing our app on pre-release version of the OS? No, never heard of that!"

8 16 Reply
1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 08:57 GMT Doctor Syntax
  
  Re: C'mon, son!
  
  MS - "Testing your apps on pre-release version of the OS? No, never heard of that!"
  
  FTFY
  
  12 1 Reply
2. Wednesday 28th September 2016 11:16 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: C'mon, son!
  
  As far as I can tell, Sage have never tested their products on anything other than their development machines. For everything else they just wait for the customers to ring support.
  
  4 0 Reply
  1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 11:38 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    It can't be Sage's fault
    
    because MS!
    
    2 0 Reply
    1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 12:51 GMT Preston Munchensonton
      
      Re: It can't be Sage's fault
      
      Since the update came out on 8/2, why hasn't this been caught before yesterday? That's not MS fault. Sage has always been lazy around everything, including their own app.
      
      0 1 Reply
Wednesday 28th September 2016 06:44 GMT Mage

Ironic

Programs like Sage Line 50 are the main reason small Business have stuck with Windows since the Vista débâcle. MS needs to simply produce an updated version of XP rather than all these GUI and Marketing experiments driven by people with no interest in legacy software and clueless about GUI design. Forget Phone / tablet / Worstation / Console universal apps and copying Adobe and Google.

Don't call the OSes for Tablets, console or Phone or embedded "Windows". Differentiate and support the core business, desktop, properly!

This is Microsoft's fault. All XP and Vista drivers and programs should work on Win 10 otherwise it's pointless and people are better migrating to Linux.

20 8 Reply
1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 07:03 GMT A Non e-mouse
  
  Re: Ironic
  
  MS needs to simply produce an updated version of XP...
  
  They did. It was called Windows 7.
  
  22 0 Reply
  1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 07:30 GMT Anonymous Coward
    
    The important Win7 patch folks is KB3172605.
    
    Windows 7 'has become' the new swiss army knife - XP, but only after 250+ security and optional updates and the fact peripherals/device drivers covering a 5 years period will have Win7 drivers.
    
    Win7 was the new swiss army knife until Microsoft broke the blade purposely, during the Windows 10 free rollout.
    
    Thankfully, Windows Update on Windows 7 now works again (and quickly) with the September 13th re-release of the July roll-up too (which fixed June's roll-up) KB3172605. No, I'm not making up that convoluted fcuk up of patch releases.
    
    Now Windows 10 upgrade is out of the way, funny how Win7 Windows Update now works again. Hope the UK's SFO is reading, needs a proper investigation gvien the number of people affected.
    
    The important patch folks is KB3172605, if you want your life back from endless 12 hours waits. But if you are still managing to run Windows 7, without a forced upgrade to Win10 you probably already knew this patch was the one.
    
    Just to add, it works as of now, that is. Tested with fresh installs of Win7SP1 and restored Win7SP1 systems. (Restored images were the big problem upto now)
    
    8 0 Reply
    1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 08:59 GMT hamiltoneuk
      
      Re: The important Win7 patch folks is KB3172605.
      
      Good comment. I gave up on Win 7 for that very reason, the updates took forever. I suspect they prioritise PCs that have more recent CPUs. Not sure if that's my paranoia or not. Definitely Sage were always pestering me to buy their pricey upgrade so that it would work with Win 8. Of course I never bothered with that and their old version works fine with Win 10 both with and without the happy anniversary update.
      
      3 0 Reply
  2. Wednesday 28th September 2016 07:32 GMT Pompous Git
    
    Re: Ironic
    
    They did. It was called Windows 7.
    
    Then like a two year old having a tantrum, they broke it :-(
    
    15 0 Reply
  3. Wednesday 28th September 2016 19:48 GMT Mage
    
    Re:It was called Windows 7.
    
    Garbage, that was a bug fix of Vista and should have been free to Vista Users. It was not an updated XP as it still depreciated GDI based apps (almost everything not a game or multimedia) in favour of the "new" Gamer and Eye candy orientated APIs.
    
    Printer & Graphics GDI support should never have been moved into the Kernel (at NT4.0).
    
    1 0 Reply
    1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 20:09 GMT Anonymous Coward
      
      Re: Re:It was called Windows 7.
      
      Garbage, that was a bug fix of Vista and should have been free to Vista Users. It was not an updated XP as it still depreciated GDI based apps (almost everything not a game or multimedia) in favour of the "new" Gamer and Eye candy orientated APIs.
      
      Our recollections are different. Windows 7 still supports GDI. In fact, they added hardware acceleration for it.
      
      Gamer APIs? Like DirectX, included with Windows 95?
      
      Also, not sure what the "Eye candy" API is. Do you mean Aero? or do you mean GDI+? GDI+ was introduced with XP.
      
      1 0 Reply
2. Wednesday 28th September 2016 10:37 GMT mr_souter_Working
  
  Re: Ironic
  
  "All XP and Vista drivers and programs should work on Win 10"
  
  seriously???????
  
  hang on a second, i will get a hose, as you seem to need some air piped to where your head is
  
  2 4 Reply
3. Wednesday 28th September 2016 11:24 GMT phuzz
  
  Re: Ironic
  
  Back in the days of XP: "ugh windows bluescreens all the time, why do microsoft allow drivers full access to the kernel?"
  
  Now: "why won't my driver from XP work on Windows 10? this is all microsofts fault!"
  
  See also "windows is so insecure, every user has admin rights" vs "omg UAC breaks everything"
  
  7 1 Reply
  1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 19:55 GMT Mage
    
    Re:BSOD
    
    Back in the days of XP: "ugh windows bluescreens all the time, why do microsoft allow drivers full access to the kernel?"
    
    That happened since NT4.0. Fixable by using decent graphics cards / Printer and drivers. But it should NEVER have been done.
    
    Win7 / Win8 / Win10 are no more stable or secure than properly set-up up NT3.5, NT3.51, NT4.0, Win2K or XP when they were supported.
    
    Win3.0, Win95a, Win ME were garbage. Win3.1x, Win95b, Win98, Win98SE were all far inferior to any NT version, Vista included, but at least could be set up reasonably properly, though practically zero security and no ability to create named pipes.
    
    1 0 Reply
Wednesday 28th September 2016 07:06 GMT Anonymous Coward

Red Hat v Fedora model.

SSD installs of Windows 10 AU 1607 still freezing randomly, two months on...

Red Hat v Fedora model, when will Microsoft learn?

Microsoft's model is something akin to Fedora Beta (Win10 release) v Fedora Alpha (Win10 insider) and I'm probably insulting Fedora and over complimenting Microsoft, in saying that.

There needs to be a much bigger distinction/gap between Windows 10 insider builds and release.

10 1 Reply
1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 08:28 GMT yoganmahew
  
  Re: Red Hat v Fedora model.
  
  I haven't had the SSD freezes until the Anniversary edition. I've rolled it back (problem fixed), but can't ignore it forever. Chance of being hear by Microsoft? Zero.:(
  
  The missus reckons we should bite the bullet and embrace the penguin.
  
  11 0 Reply
  1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 11:42 GMT sabroni
    
    Re: The missus reckons we should bite the bullet and embrace the penguin.
    
    Wish my missus was that dirty. I'm lucky if she dresses up as a nurse. I suggested bullet biting once and had to sleep on the settee for a week, so I'm loathe to bring up bestiality.
    
    11 0 Reply
    1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 11:45 GMT Paul Crawford
      
      Re: The missus reckons we should bite the bullet and embrace the penguin.
      
      No point in asking then, you'd be flogging a dead horse.
      
      3 0 Reply
Wednesday 28th September 2016 07:33 GMT Dwarf

Both at fault

Both vendors are at fault here

Sage - Who need to update their software to use something mildly current generation, the software has loads of wierd dependencies, legacy components and custom things that do not use the standard OS functions - this helps to force the mandatory support agreements as nobody else can understand what's going on inside the software when it invariably breaks.

Microsoft - Why cut out older software functionality that is already installed on the machine when it's doing an 'upgrade'. If it were a fresh install, then drop the option and people can install it if it's needed.

10 0 Reply
Wednesday 28th September 2016 07:37 GMT Tezfair

I ran version 19 of instant accounts for years until I went to W10 and it refused to work. I had to upgrade to v22 (or stop supporting W10) so this is almost old news to me

3 0 Reply
Wednesday 28th September 2016 08:18 GMT Anonymous Coward

please clarify

Is it Windows 10 or is it Windows 1.0

8 0 Reply
1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 08:29 GMT Anonymous Coward
  
  Re: please clarify
  
  No, no, it is Windows 0.1.0
  
  7 0 Reply
  1. Wednesday 28th September 2016 19:22 GMT Nunyabiznes
    
    Re: please clarify
    
    NEIN! Windows 1.D'OH
    
    2 0 Reply
Wednesday 28th September 2016 08:35 GMT GeezaGaz

Small Businesses....and old people

>Essentially, users who have updated to the latest version of Windows 10 are knocked back with weird password errors when trying to log into *Saga* 50, a financial management package aimed at small businesses.

Saga 50? So you are saying this only affects the older generation of business owners??? :)

5 0 Reply
Wednesday 28th September 2016 08:37 GMT Shufflemoomin

Not limited to Sage

I recently (stupidly) upgraded to the anniversary update and I'm also having issues with .NET 3.5. It keeps popping up telling me that some programs or features require .NET 3.5 and when I click install, it fails. Apparently the work-around is to install it directly from my install media. It's 2016 and Microsoft are telling me to dig out an install disk so I can install *their* product on *their* operating system.

12 0 Reply