back to article US work visas for international tech talent? 'If Donald Trump is elected all bets are off'

Apart from marrying an American, the best known route for foreign techies wanting to (legally) share their expertise for a fee in the US is a work visa. But this route is overcrowded, increasingly expensive and, should Donald Trump become America’s 45th president, it'll likely slam shut for many hoping to work in Silicon …

Page:

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I don't have any issue work visas as long as the employees brought in are of exceptional quality and are paid and given the benefits that indicate that. From what I've read on many sites that is not always or even not often case. Abuse of the system by the Corporations that lobbied (read bribed politicians) for the system, hard to imagine ;)

  2. This post has been deleted by its author

  3. Shadow Systems

    Good for competition?

    Tell that to the workers forced to train their visa'd replacements. When you get fired, replaced with a visa scab the company can get away with paying a tenth of your salary, & threatened with the witholding of your severence if you refuse to train the scab, how is that good for the economy? It certainly isn't good for employment, morale, or doing anything besides lining the already fat pockets of the bastards at the top whom reap (rape?) the rewards.

    I hate Trump. I won't vote for him. But I agree the visa system needs to be stopped immediately, entirely, permanently.

    Want to do business here? Then hire someone whom LIVES here. THAT will help the economy, morale, & convince the public that you're not just a greedy fekhead whom deserves to be strung up by your nipples & used as a pinata.

    The same should go for everywhere. Want to do business in Scotland? Hire a Scot. Ireland? Hire an Irishman. England? Hire one FROM there. Don't hire some scab bastard from somewhere else, import them in at the expense of a local, just so you can pay them less, work them longer, & give them the boot (revoke their visa) the moment they realize JUST how shitty you're treating them.

    Do business in $Area, hire someone from $Area to do the work, pay them fairly, treat them as if you value them, & don't fall into the fallacy that humans are just replaceable cogs in the grist mill of your profit machine. We have this NASTY habit of throwing a monkey wrench in the gears (striking, unionizing, suing, sabotauge, etc) when you piss us off...

    (Edited because I haven't had enough caffeine yet.)

    1. Neil Alexander

      Re: Good for competition?

      But I agree the visa system needs to be stopped immediately, entirely, permanently.

      You've clearly been burned. I'm sorry for that, but that's no reason to be so insular and closed-minded. If we all looked at the world as full of opportunity instead of obstacles then we'd all be better off for it.

      I've never understood why skilled, proactive and willing people should have such a hard time getting a working visa anywhere. What a terrible thing to want to come to your country and contribute to society and pay taxes and better ourselves and the work we do.

      1. sundog

        Re: Good for competition?

        Remember that when you're forced to train some foul-smelling, arrogant, ignorant, mentally deficient fscktard to be your replacement, at 1/2 your salary, 1/4 your benefits, and none of your experience. Bonus points if they are a misogynistic prat who treats female secretaries and assistants like they're trash.

        Take comfort in the fact that you've given someone a 'chance to live the American dream' as you pack up your belongings from your foreclosed house and have to explain to your family that you were replaced by a foreigner who was happy to do the same job as you for half the pay.

        Enjoy struggling to find employment, even as an experienced worker, because companies can hire some foreign idjit who will promptly send better than half of their earnings back overseas to their family.

        No. Work visas don't need to be stopped, but they do need to be made so expensive for the companies that they aren't a viable choice vs hiring local talent. Same with outsourcing. They want to outsource the call centre to whatever-istan? Sure. 500% increase in federal taxes for every man hour they pay for out of country.

        Yes, while businesses are in business to make money (otherwise they're charities), most places tend to function on the 'GIMME GIMME GIMME' aspect of money at the expense of their employees. Whereas places that pay their employees fairly, treat them well, and give them a *reason* to work hard very quickly find out that happy, loyal employees are hard working employees. And hard working employees make you money. End of story.

        So enjoy your newfound free time, because congratulations, you're being fired and replaced by a foreigner. Oh, and I'm sorry that you can't collect unemployment benefits, because we gave all that money away to illegal immigrants. Got to think of everybody else's children first, you know.

        1. d3vy

          Re: Good for competition?

          @sundog

          Sounds like US employees could do with fighting for better employment laws...

          I always thought that the two weeks holiday you guys got was bad enough but now your saying that you can be replaced at the whim.of your company?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Good for competition?

            >Sounds like US employees could do with fighting for better employment laws...

            >I always thought that the two weeks holiday you guys got was bad enough but now your saying that >you can be replaced at the whim.of your company?

            They de-unionised years ago so this is the overall trend - USA is about the only democracy which has refused to sign up to ETI/ILO Freedom of Association so it's not even a right - weird thing is it's often those who would most benefit who are aggressively against it.

            (real) statutory maternity leave/pay is also an alien concept. Worked (in the UK) with a US colleague who got pregnant a few years ago - we had to explain her Statutory maternity pay/leave over and over because simply wouldn't believe it - initially she assumed she'd probably lose the job!

            1. Jaybus

              Re: Good for competition?

              Such a horrible place to work, and yet hundreds of thousands are queuing up for work visas. Perhaps Trump is just a humanitarian then? Trying to save those people from the horrible conditions in the US?

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Good for competition?

                You got it. I am not saying anything in praise of Trump, or for that matter, any other scumbag pol. But:

                The H-1 system is a despicable system of modern slavery which harms everyone involved, except the companies that are pimping out the slaves. It would be much fairer and easier to simply increase the quota of visas for India under the green-card lottery system.

          2. Mark 85

            @d3vy -- Re: Good for competition?

            Sounds like US employees could do with fighting for better employment laws...

            I always thought that the two weeks holiday you guys got was bad enough but now your saying that you can be replaced at the whim.of your company.

            Exactly that. The unions have been eviscerated and the power now lies with the corporates and their lobbyists. Most states have what is called "work at will".

            Here's a link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

            Thus, they can fire anyone, at anytime, without any reason.

          3. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Good for competition?

            What? You say U.S. employment laws are relatively worse, than, presumably, the U.K.? Or Europe as a whole?

            Right now, in the U.K., an I.T. worker can be replaced by an Indian onshorer, whom he has to train while he is being "offboarded", and the grounds for the visa application for this onshorer is that the guy who is training him is not good enough for the job. This is perfectly lawful and going on continually.

            Every visa application for onshorers thruout Europe basically is made on the premise that "local skills are not available". And therefore, every one constitutes criminal fraud. Outside the U.S., none of the onshoring companies have had any significant legal problems with this, while in the U.S., there have been a few hundred court cases.

            And you tell me that U.S. employment laws, or at least, their enforcement, are somehow worse than the U.K. or other European country?

            1. d3vy

              Re: Good for competition?

              "Right now, in the U.K., an I.T. worker can be replaced by an Indian onshorer..."

              Example?

              I've worked in several large UK based companies for the last 14 years and have not heard of this happening.. (Whole departments being made redundant and outsourced yes but not the way that you describe) the whole trend for outsourcing seems to be turning round now anyway as companies see that it's not good business sense.

              The point I made was that in the UK there are better protections, you cannot simply be replaced by someone doing the same role for less money, if you are you can go to tribuneral and would likley win.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Good for competition? @D3vy

                Astra Zenica.

                There's one..

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Good for competition?

                Example: me, right now, and I'm suing. What planet do you live on? No, the employment tribunal does *NOT* cover this for contractors, which is who the victims most frequently are, having been forced into contracting by employers who refuse to fairly hire them on staff.

                BTW so far my costs are 35 thousand pounds. I have had to source that money from my savings. I have not yet been allowed to give evidence because defendant onshoring company has billions of pounds to pay for a superb legal team who have blocked me from submitting a statement. BTW, they have a court record of simply forcing these cases to either give up altogether, or settle for pennies, because the court award comes nowhere near the legal costs which are not fully covered by judgement. I have been told countless times by London Financial services companies "I would like to hire you, but my manager insists on "offshore resource" (LOL! "offshore" means onshore, except if you say "onshore" too loud it might cause problems). If you walk round any London FS shop, you will see entire floors of onshorers, who have replaced local staff for no other reason than lower wage costs.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Good for competition?

              >And you tell me that U.S. employment laws, or at least, their enforcement, are somehow worse than the U.K. or other European country?

              Nice infographic here on maternity/paternity rights here:

              http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/04/maternity-leave-paid-parental-leave-_n_2617284.html

              The US concept of At-will Employment is another thing which it is IME quite hard for UK/EU folk to get their heads round...

              Right to free assembly of workers - no such concept in the US - but a fundamental right in the EU

            3. Andrew Ansell

              Re: Good for competition?

              How are US employment laws worse than the UK?

              Maternity/paternity leave:

              UK 52 weeks split however you want between both parents, Several months of it paid and a slowly decreasing amount.

              USA 6 weeks unpaid for the mother. (12 weeks each parent with some pay in California)

              Job security:

              UK any professional job is will have a 4 week or more bilateral notice period. There is a legal minimum redundancy payment.

              USA your notice period is the time it takes to escort you to the door. No required payoff for laying someone off. (If on an H-1B this gives you 2 weeks to get out the country)

              Time off:

              UK professional jobs will typically have 25 days time off per year. The legal minimum is 20 days. Employers will encourage people to use them up.

              US no legal minimum. Typically ~20 offered for silicon valley tech companies however some companies strongly discourage people to use them.

              Sick pay:

              UK if you are sick you don't come in to the office. This does not come off your holiday allowance.

              USA if you are sick you either use your time off or come in and infect your coworkers.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Good for competition?

          Whereas places that pay their employees fairly, treat them well, and give them a *reason* to work hard very quickly find out that happy, loyal employees are hard working employees. And hard working employees make you money. End of story.

          Not quite. The problem is that those that seek to treat their employees fairly and equitably are squeezed out of the market by those that make a profit by exporting those jobs or abusing the visa system to push down their staffing costs. That's where your real problem hides. Similar to tax avoidance, the few big abusers ruin it for the rest of the market but they're the ones who get given all the leeway in the world because they bought a free pass during campaign time.

          As soon as a company starts shipping its MONEY overseas it's time to lift up the lid and audit them edge to edge, certainly when they can seemingly afford to sponsor politicians - you want to examine the exact ROI on that.

          There are, however, two ticking time bombs between all of this. Time bomb 1 has already been alluded to: when more and more people are pushed out of their job through cheaper employees, that has a direct impact on the country the business resides in (housing, benefits, local economy, taxable income). Politicians who allow this are effectively assisting in killing the country (let's not forget that a cheaper member of staff also pays less tax), and should be examined for what exactly they drag out of this because there is a secondary impact: as soon as that game is over, the locust, sorry, company will up sticks and move elsewhere leaving nothing but barren land behind. They don't care. Long live capitalism (which it isn't, it's disguised monopolism as there is no level market and competition)..

          Time bomb 2 is that the more people are unemployed, the more people will start wondering why. Unlike the Romans, they don't have access to bread and plays - they even lose their homes - so they'll find other things to do. This can't go on, especially if we keep in mind that these ones have guns. They may come to regret the NRA :(.

        3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Good for competition?

          "Remember that when you're forced to train some foul-smelling, arrogant, ignorant, mentally deficient fscktard to be your replacement, at 1/2 your salary, 1/4 your benefits, and none of your experience. Bonus points if they are a misogynistic prat who treats female secretaries and assistants like they're trash."

          That's an excellent reason for reforming the existing corrupt and abused system, but considering the founding principles of the USA, it's NOT a good reason to abolish the system either short term, long term or especially not permanently. Work visas are supposed to be for growing industries where the local education system isn't producing enough people to do the required jobs. It was never intended to be used to replace existing workers or even to minimise "local" recruitment. That is pure and simple abuse of the system by greedy people.

          1. sundog

            Re: Good for competition?

            Ah, read a bit further down in my post, and you'll see that I didn't call for a cessation of the work visas, but to make them uneconomical for business to use for 'cost cutting' measures. It will *help* ensure that the best and brightest still have a chance, but they need to be good enough to justify the expense.

            I don't want to stop immigration. Hell, almost all of us here in the US are immigrants. I want the visa system reformed. I want the number curbed, and the costs raised. Dump that extra money into primary and secondary education. Fund programs to help those that can't afford an education to get one.

      2. noh1bvisas

        Re: Good for competition?

        you can better yourself in your own country and not harm the USA doing it.

      3. constance szeflinski

        Re: Good for competition?

        It is not the good people who want to come to the USA that are the problem - the problem is greedy employers who see those good people as a way to pay less for the job. "I can get a foreigner to do the same job as a US citizen and only pay them two thirds of what the citizen will cost - sign me up."

        It is unfair to the US citizens who had to pay their way through college only to find that their jobs are being taken by foreigners willing to work for less than it takes to live (how they do it is beyond me - no college graduate should be forced to live like a poor starving student their entire working career - they are entitled to be paid what the job they trained for is worth - not get by on what someone who will do just about anything to live in the US is willing to put up with.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good for competition?

      That's quite a rant. Why not have everyone confined to their parish at birth, to eliminate the risk of their jobs being taken away by "scabs" from the next village who can do these jobs better than the inbred locals ?

      1. frank ly

        Re: Good for competition?

        This is a local company, for local people. There's nothing for you here.

        1. Charles 9

          Re: Good for competition?

          And if there's NO ONE there who can do the job, and it's not the kind of job you can do on-the-spot training for?

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Good for competition?

          "This is a local company, for local people. There's nothing for you here"

          At least outside the US our cans of cant don't contain HFCS

      2. Rich 11

        Re: Good for competition?

        Why not have everyone confined to their parish at birth, to eliminate the risk of their jobs being taken away by "scabs" from the next village who can do these jobs better than the inbred locals ?

        Ah, serfdom, how I miss it. At least everyone knew their place. Take Gobbo the village idiot, for example. He could sleep safe at night, confident that no other village idiot would creep across the parish boundary at sunrise and dance for scraps at the manorial breakfast table before Gobbo had even worked out how to put his boots on. Happy days.

        But it's all gone now. I blame the Black Death. We never had it so good.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Good for competition?

        "Why not have everyone confined to their parish at birth, to eliminate the risk of their jobs being taken away by "scabs" from the next village who can do these jobs better than the inbred locals ?"

        This is how it was in England - until the Black Death, after which the more intelligent landowners started poaching land workers with higher wages and better conditions. The result was the concentrating of power in the hands of fewer people - but the surviving peasants benefited.

    3. DavCrav

      Re: Good for competition?

      "Do business in $Area, hire someone from $Area to do the work, pay them fairly, treat them as if you value them, & don't fall into the fallacy that humans are just replaceable cogs in the grist mill of your profit machine."

      Yeah, Harvard: Only employ professors from the Cambridge, MA area. And Google: don't think about hiring anyone outside Mountain View. Wouldn't want any companies outgrowing the specialist population of their local area. And if you live in a country/city without the industry you want to be in, well fuck you. Learn what the local companies do, and hope they have vacancies.

      For the love of God, where do these people come from? Social mobility: they've heard of it. Bloody immigrants: sod off back to Africa where you, and every other human being, came from.

      1. macjules

        Re: Good for competition?

        They are what are know as 'Trumpies'. Close the gates, build walls, shoot anyone who might be a Muslim and deride anyone who dares to suggest that Apple make all their computers and phones outside of the USA.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Mushroom

          Re: Good for competition?

          @ macjules:

          So will you be attending next counsel meeting in San Bernardino? If you do, hold back on the cup of paranoia!

      2. Peter Simpson 1
        Stop

        Re: Good for competition?

        Obviously, at some level, you need to look outside the local area. But there's an obligation to provide employment for people in the area, where that is a reasonable option.

        I'd argue that importing IT people from India (or, in general, overseas) is in the long term, detrimental to the local economy. The H1B program is being blatantly misused to do exactly that. These are IT people, not professors. IT is a job doable by any graduate of a 2-year trade/technical school with a few years' apprenticeship. There is no reason to import people to do a job which has been done by locals for many years...except to lower costs. If you are a corporation who values your environment, you should offer jobs to your neighbors, because, in the long term, you want to be a good corporate citizen.

        1. SA_Mathieson

          Re: Good for competition?

          I'm writing an article about immigration and IT for The Register. Interested in hearing from those who make the case for preferring to educate locals rather than bringing in staff from overseas. If you can help, drop me a line - mail [AT] samathieson.com.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good for competition?

      Shadow:

      Are you referring to companies like Disney or Southern Cal Edison? Who have broken the law and now being sued by DOL and others in California. While lawsuits are in the works, but like any bloated "blubberment" it takes time. Tell that to the displaced workers!

      1. Shadow Systems

        @sux2bu, Re: Good for competition?

        Those were precisely the corporations I was thinking of, the Disney article still fresh in my mind.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @shadow.. Good for competition?

          ;) some of us are still pulling the splinters out of our ass over Disney. I did have a ray of hope and a major FU moment. A recruiter (rolleyes) contacted me and they would hire me back to work on their wireless and do some in-depth training with some of the H1's for 60% less than I was making. Response was GFY, contact the OEM.

          If I could find a way to tell SCE to FU, I would. But typing without electrons is tough. :o

    5. diego

      Re: Good for competition?

      Dr. Michio Kaku speaks about how America's poor educational system has created a shortage of Americans who can perform high skilled technology jobs. As a result, America's H-1B Genius visa is used to attract immigrants who are skilled enough to perform these jobs.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM

      1. MD Rackham

        Re: Good for competition?

        There is no shortage of qualified IT personnel in the US. It's all a product of wanting to pay very low salaries and not even interview people over 40.

        Hire some "olds" (i.e., experienced workers) and raise salaries to attract more people and the problem is solved with local talent.

        I pay well over the market and am always amazed at the quality of applicants I get. The extra salary expense is easily recouped from having extremely low turnover, thus little downtime getting new hires up to speed. But then, as a private company, I'm allowed to think beyond the current quarter.

        1. noh1bvisas

          Re: Good for competition?

          "But then, as a private company, I'm allowed to think beyond the current quarter."

          .

          Heresy!!! (joking)!

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Good for competition?

          I pay well over the market and am always amazed at the quality of applicants I get. The extra salary expense is easily recouped from having extremely low turnover, thus little downtime getting new hires up to speed. But then, as a private company, I'm allowed to think beyond the current quarter.

          It also allows you to employ people who "don't fit in" which is typically the area you'll find the creative thinkers. I'm one myself, and as the mainstay of my work is rescue operations where the people that DO fit in come unstuck, I couldn't do without my merry band of unfits.

          The hardest job is to get them to wear a suit on client sites, but as for problem solving skills they are more than 200% worth the cat herding effort and their salaries. Once you have shown them where they fit in the picture (because you have to integrate this bunch with people that do a normal 9 to 5 or you won't get any admin or financials done) you'll have a cauldron of magic that needs very little stirring. You do have to plan for the occasional explosion, but that is what true leadership is about and it's never boring. Besides, I *know* how they think :).

      2. noh1bvisas

        Re: Good for competition?

        "Dr. Michio Kaku speaks about how America's poor educational system has created a shortage of Americans who can perform high skilled technology jobs. As a result, America's H-1B Genius visa is used to attract immigrants who are skilled enough to perform these jobs."

        LOL! so skilled they have to be trained by the americans they are replacing. kids today aren't stupid. they see tech wages falling. why invest in a IT degree?

      3. Jaybus

        Re: Good for competition?

        "As a result, America's H-1B Genius visa is used to attract immigrants who are skilled enough to perform these jobs."

        Nonsense. H-1Bs are NON-IMMIGRANT visas, and so have nothing to do with attracting immigrants. Employment-based immigration visas are designated E1, E2, E3, or EW3.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Good for competition?

          Not nonsense, and this is precisely the point. H1-Bs are officially designated "non-immigrant". But in practice, they have *ALWAYS* been used as a deliberate immigration route. How do I know? Because I and many friends used it for exactly this. We had no intention of leaving the states after the H1-B expired. In practice, everyone who applies for an H1-B sees it as a foot in the door which will eventually result in a green-card.

      4. constance szeflinski

        Re: Good for competition?

        Yes, our education system is so awful that over 70% of those foreign employees were educated at US colleges. There are plenty of great people available for employment right here the problem is they know how much money they should be making and companies are loathe to pay them what they are worth. The funny thing is that I've never seen a development project come in on time or at budget using these cheap workers - in general when things get in real trouble they hire some very expensive old fart consultants (all US originals) to fix the problems the in the outsourced/foreign contractor code for more than it would have cost to do it right in the first place. Executives only see "I get x number of people for y number of dollars" - they never see that the x number of people just muck things up when fewer better people could bring the project in for fewer dollars in the end. Throwing more and cheaper people at a development project generally does more harm than good - but I've never met an executive that accepts that fact.

    6. Phil O'Sophical Silver badge

      Re: Good for competition?

      But I agree the visa system needs to be stopped immediately, entirely, permanently.

      Great, so instead of importing people do do the jobs in the US, they'll just offshore the jobs to wherever the people are. That way you lose not only the job itself but all the work and subsidiary jobs associated with it.

      1. Charles 9

        Re: Good for competition?

        Not quite because many jobs require physical presence. How do you offshore a construction job, for example? And offshoring a manufacturing job entails additional costs for transportation and perhaps tariffs and other customs fees.

      2. noh1bvisas

        Re: Good for competition?

        "Great, so instead of importing people do do the jobs in the US, they'll just offshore the jobs to wherever the people are. That way you lose not only the job itself but all the work and subsidiary jobs associated with it."

        .

        not all jobs can be offshored. if these big tech companies wanted to move, they would move. as for the subsidiary jobs, even those are less with an h1b. h1bs earn les, so they spend less. they live 6 guys to a one bedroom apt. they don't buy cars, shop (eve see an indian in a mall?), eat out (I always see them packing their lunches), they are also busy sending money back to their home country.

      3. fajensen
        Coat

        Re: Good for competition?

        Great, so instead of importing people do do the jobs in the US, they'll just offshore the jobs to wherever the people are.

        Nope: In many of those places they will cut your hand off for stealing or you get a trip to the organ banks. No bailouts in the 3'rd world, it's the chop or the bullet! Maybe a lynching. Not a good life for our bankers.

        Corporations simply want the 1'st world bennies but not any of the responsibilities that go along with that.

        Our spoiled-rotten CEx classes would simply not last very long without the protection, nursing and support from the societies and governments they publicly undermine at every speaking opportunity.

    7. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Good for competition?

      Imagine, a Hollywood where the natives had to fill every role. Dick van Dyke's legendary British accent might make a comeback.

    8. tirk
      Unhappy

      Re: Good for competition?

      "Visa scab"? Really??

      By that logic I assume you are not in favour of importing or exporting anything either.

    9. quxinot

      Re: Good for competition?

      It's a shame that technology companies can't figure out a way to communicate over a distance. Imagine, even writing code, administration, or support could be possible without even living on that side of the globe!

      Wait, we call that outsourcing and it's bad.

      It's bad when it goes to people that suck and get paid less than we do. It's good when it lets us be contractors for heaping bagfulls of gold.

      I suspect there's some whining here.

      Let's ignore the whole thing and pay attention to what matters for just a moment. Trump vs Hillary. Either we'll have a lunatic in a position of power, or a moron doing the same. (You may put those descriptions where you please.)

      Just like Zaphod, their job is to distract the public majority from the actual power taking the money and running off stage left. Let's not talk about the >500 elected folks in congress, when a majority of citizens cannot name their representatives and know nothing about their policies and decisions. The whole time, the rich and interested are buying policies ....er... lobbying.... and running to the bank, which is likely offshore someplace.

      But hey, let's go back to shouting at the singular person that's easy to hate. Let's bury our heads in the sand! It's incredible how many people can tell you that Bill tore off a piece with an intern, but can't tell you anything about what laws were passed, changed, and re-interpreted during his reign. Bill was very good at his job, clearly.

Page:

POST COMMENT House rules

Not a member of The Register? Create a new account here.

  • Enter your comment

  • Add an icon

Anonymous cowards cannot choose their icon

Other stories you might like