Docker hired private detectives to pursue woman engineer's rape, death threat trolls Container software biz Docker hired private investigators to track down trolls after one of its popular engineers was harassed and bullied for being a woman. Jessie Frazelle, who was sent death and rape threats, last month quit the San Francisco-based upstart to work at Mesosphere. As word of her departure spread, Docker …
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British one. For starters.
I am having to (thankfully not literally) beat out what is seeded into junior's brain and vocabulary on a daily basis in a UK school. The really scary part is that I usually fail during term times, but thankfully manage to retake any lost ground during the holidays.
Some of what I see is a weird and unexpected result of political correctness and equality gone mad. Our generation still had some level of "gentlemanly behavior" drilled down into our heads at home and at school. As a result certain ideas were off-limits day one and stayed this way as we grew up. That is presently considered to be "wrong" and "sexist" leaving a huge moral void instead. There has been no attempt to fill this void with anything so the end-result can be characterized by one word: "feral".
Some of what I see is a weird and unexpected result of political correctness and equality gone mad. Our generation still had some level of "gentlemanly behavior" drilled down into our heads at home and at school. As a result certain ideas were off-limits day one and stayed this way as we grew up. That is presently considered to be "wrong" and "sexist" leaving a huge moral void instead.
This is utter bilge. You're saying that being taught to treat all people equally decently (which you characterise as "politically correct and equality gone mad" -- a red flag phrase if ever there was one) is responsible for some men issuing rape threats and death threats to high-profile women because those men are no longer being told to put women on a pedestal and treat them as the weaker sex, incapable of doing everything for themselves. Treating people equally decently. Treating people equally decently. How can that possibly translate to a "huge moral void" to be filled with threats and abuse?
This is more of an insight into your thinking than an insight into the problems covered by the article.
Treating people equally decently. How can that possibly translate to a "huge moral void" to be filled with threats and abuse?
Err... you are thinking of "gentlemanly behavior" as a ruleset directly purely "towards women" and treating them as "weaker sex". Which is exactly my point - position like yours is political correctness gone mad exemplified.
I suggest you look up ALL rules of gentlemanly behavior as you clearly do not know them. These include integrity, and protecting people who are WEAKER and VULNERABLE than you regardless of their sexual orientation as well many other things. The "weaker sex", "women and children first", etc are merely one (of many) applications of these rules. Where they apply. We (thankfully) live in a day and age when some of them are do not apply. The key word is SOME.
By the way, based on your reaction, quite clearly, your parents did not explain the rules to you in full. So any expectation that you will explain them to your offspring is not founded in reality. No surprise that they will go feral then.
I have to say I sort of get where you are coming from, I'm not sure if the idea of saying "I wish you get raped" to a woman is so abhorrent I can't see myself saying it even in the heat of the moment. Part of me wonders if it's because you know old concepts of chivalry etc.
I am also thinking of most of the females I have known in my life, and pretty sure if I said anything like that as an insult to any of them they would probably slap me so hard my teeth would rattle, and every friend would call me out on it.*
I dunno if that's chivalry, civilisation or being brought up properly. But there's definetly an element of society that could do with being taught some ff'ing manners.
*I suspect this is what would happen to half these trolls as well if they actually had the balls to say this stuff in real life.
I'm not sure if the idea of saying "I wish you get raped" to a woman is so abhorrent I can't see myself saying it even in the heat of the moment.
Wow this is what happens when you start writing a sentence then change it and well..... Let me say I actually meant to say.
I never would be able to see myself saying something like "I hope you get raped" even in the heat of the moment. My god I reread that post edit time and went oh fuck.
'Gentlemanly behaviour
- Well that changes over time, a century or so ago, 'gentlemen' (or at least, that's how they saw themselves) went around invading countries and nicking their resources for pennies. Gentlemen were men with money, men without money were not gentlemen.
There's always been a moral divergent between gentlemanly perception and actual actions (and among some 'ladies' as well).
True... but for one thing... they breed and multiply and that alone spreads the vileness. Many people here in the States have had years of the NEA and other groups pounding things into our heads that it's their job and parents shouldn't interfere. Well, schools have failed and parents don't know or understand how to pick up the slack.
And... then there's the anonymous part of using the Internet. No one knows whether you're a dog or just an ass.
Am I on a different planet? Why wouldn't tech journalists call out Docker to share what they found when investigating this? It's not just El Reg, none of the tech pubs covering this story are calling out Docker to be more transparent about their investigation. Docker issues a non-response and tech journos just shrug.
Am I on a different planet? Why wouldn't tech journalists call out Docker to share what they found when investigating this? It's not just El Reg, none of the tech pubs covering this story are calling out Docker to be more transparent about their investigation. Docker issues a non-response and tech journos just shrug.
Yes you are on a different planet. It's great that both Frazelle and Docker have spoken publicly about the impact of trolls and it's even better that they have shared some best practise for dealing with them.
That doesn't entitle us to the personal details of their investigation, which might a) be more distressing for the victim if they are out in the open b) constitute a libel of an alleged troll who hasn't even been investigated by the police yet, never mind arrested, charged and convicted.
Ask yourself why you want those investigation results. We already have enough information to understand what happened and what we should do if it happens to someone near us. Anything more would just be voyeurism.
Why should Docker share the results of private investigations? Aside from the fact there's a good chance it would do little good, there's a significant chance it would do a lot of harm - naming people who weren't guilty, prejudicing cases against those that were...
It seems like a very positive thing to me that Docker took additional steps to try and deal with this problem. I'm more concerned about the fact that we're entering a situation where corporations have to take care of law enforcement for their employees rather than the State being able to provide this service.
"Am I on a different planet?"
You seem to be.
"Why wouldn't tech journalists call out Docker to share what they found when investigating this?"
Because they're sufficiently well-informed to realise that (a) investigations proceed best when the subject isn't warned of progress and (b) if the investigation results in court action such action might have to be dropped if prior publication were to be ruled prejudicial.
"This industry is fucked," she wrote
I would not blame the industry. It is that, unfortunately, the internet is an outlet for sociopaths. These are the people on forums that have no interest in sharing ideas and only feel pleasure at hurting people. It's a mental health issue, which also makes it a parenting issue.
What these people desperately want is to be taken seriously. The best psychological defense really is to laugh at them. It drains their venom which stops them cold.
Also a very small number of sociopaths, angry narcissists, antisocial loners (or teenagers - same difference probably) using an anonymous broadcasting platform with unlimited reach can have a hugely disproportionate influence. While not wanting to minimise the impact of hateful behaviour on victims, I wonder if the term 'endemic' is used wisely here. Even a small degree of fallout for the perpetrators (who are by definition cowards) would likely solve the problem.
Then move underneath bridge. From on high.
Misquoting Pratchett from memory:
"How long can you hold your breath?"
"Is that relevant?"
"It is, in the case of being nailed by your kneecaps upside down under the Brass Bridge for two whole high tides, which is, I'm afraid, the traditional punishment for this..."
Starting or being a member of support and education organizations is important. One such group is Association for Women in Science (AWIS) http://www.awis.org/
I know of one that is called Brookhaven Woman in Science https://www.bnl.gov/bwis/
I personally feel that in this day and age we still need support groups to help our society grow and mature. Hopefully we will get to the point where these hostile environments will no longer exist.
I find it very sad that "Women in xxx" groups feel the need to exist. I don't know if that's out of a genuine need or a perceived need.
I do worry when Women in Computing troll out stats saying that a female at school today has only a tiny chance of becoming a CEO. It may be true, but ignores the fact that anyone, of any gender, at school today has only a tiny chance of becoming a CEO (unless that school is Eton).
Personally I don't think I've ever encountered sexism or racism on a personal level at work. Four of the seven CIO/IT Directors in my career have been female. We do, unfortunately, have "positive" discrimination in my current job (the females who report to me are paid more than their male colleagues because they are rarer in the market) so I suppose we do have discrimination.
I'm sure this post will offend huge numbers numbers for reasons I don't understand, but I'm a geek at heart and find all this social stuff very difficult.
>>Personally I don't think I've ever encountered sexism or racism on a personal level at work.
Well see, here's one problem with that; you're not a woman.
Unless you are in their shoes (literally), you will never ever see or experience that offhand remark, the subtle but inappropriate touch, the leering, the sneering, the utter outrage from some men who yell obscenities at women who choose not to acknowledge them when 'all they did' was to tell them how pretty they were, as if the women exist merely to make some guy's boner happy.
It is really easy as a man to say you've never seen or experienced it, and that might be why it gets dismissed or ridiculed when brought up; most women who are harassed don't even speak about it, usually for fear of retribution, getting fired, being pushed out.
You having never seen or experienced it sadly means nothing, maybe it will mean something to you when it's your daughter or girlfriend whom it happens to.
>>Have you ever experienced being a man in a 99% female workplace?
No, I have however heard anecdotally about men who feel uncomfortable and like they're being treated as a piece of meat in such a situation. Certainly harassment can go both ways, the difference however in all those instances were that women generally do not behave like predators and are nowhere as aggressive in their pursuant harassment. Nevertheless let me be clear, harassment is not ok and everyone has the right to feel safe in their workplace, free of worrying about what to wear or how they look for fear of someone who wasn't raised to treat people decently.
That said... Have you known a lot of tech companies with a 99% female workforce? Thought not.
Certainly harassment can go both ways, the difference however in all those instances were that women generally do not behave like predators and are nowhere as aggressive in their pursuant harassment
I don't know about where you live, but here men generally don't behave like predators either.
Well-behaving men behave well? Also, water wet. Are you talking about men in general, or men who harass in general? I was under the impression we were talking about the latter. If over there, the men who harass don't behave like predators, kudos, I guess? Now if you could only get them to stop harassing too...
Well let me rephrase for you - a person who sexually harasses another is predatory, it's traditionally been helped by the unwillingness of the victim to come forward out of fear of retribution, in this environment predators thrive, and yes traditionally this dynamic has men being the predator, by far. I thought my last post made that clear, most men are not people who harass women, but you don't get a cookie or a medal for being a decent human being, it's simply expected.
>>Have you ever experienced being a man in a 99% female workplace?
I've worked in a place with 90% female staff, 99% female users (students). Apart from the odd inappropriate comment from a teenager* all the abuse, harassment and accusations of being a feelthy peedo** came from.... men. Mainly parents, and a relief teacher who's subsequently turned out to be pretty dodgy.
At the universities I worked at a the ratio was about 3-1 female to male, and also no real harassment from the ladies, and the various vendettas carried out seemed to be more about politics and less gender.
If you've not been an obvious target, then it's easy to assume it simply doesn't happen. I grew my hair long, and suddenly I get random guys yelling at me, ranging from the funny to scary. Walk around holding hands with a women, no comments. Take a stroll holding your boyfriends hand, and you get assaulted.
While I've told this tale before, it bears a quick retelling. Chap on the service desk with me was cracking a series of "jokes" about rape and prostitutes, including the claim that "you can't rape a whore, that's just theft". So I told him that a) prostitutes are still people, and often a tad vulnerable to sexual assualts, b) rape is not an OK subject matter for joking about in the office and c) fucking a passed out woman is rape, and yeah, that does make you a self confessed rapist.
He reported me to HR, who dragged me out for a bollocking which lasted about thirty seconds when they realised that they had gotten the wrong end of the stick, and that the person making the complaint was the one who had been making the NSFW comments. Watching the prick squirm when he was trying to defend his "humor" at the meeting where he and I where the only chaps, HR and big boss being both female. He shortly afterwards decided to seek opportunities elsewhere.
Just to be clear, most men are civil and decent. It does behoove us to call out the ones who aren't, in case they take our silence for consent or agreement.
* I'd gotten another engineer to come help me out for a week, and he rode a motorbike with full leathers and looked like a greek god. Got a couple of requests for the "sexy IT guy" to come by more often. Oh and some flirty texts when they got hold of my mobile number, but they got to talk to their dean about respect and whatnot.
** Not the sensible stuff, like ensuring your behavior is of in loco parentis and above reproach at all times, keeping a door open when you're alone with a student, and handling the inevitable teenage crushes with care and dignity.
The anecdote time then.
Twice I've witnessed this event:
Hot guy from marketing makes lewd flirty comment to girl about her appearance. Girl giggles and flushes, is flattered and tells her mates about it.
Creepy guy from IT makes a comparatively innocuous (compared to previous hot guy) comment complimenting same girls appearance. Girl is appalled, creepy IT guy finds himself in hot water with complaint against him for sexist behaviour.
Well yes. Comes-ons from people you find attractive who know how to come on to you, are received differently from people you don't find attractive and whose come-ons feel kind of threatening. If a good-looking guy says something flattering to me and seems confident and casual about it, I'm usually okay with that. If an unattractive guy who has clearly been planning out the scenario of coming on to me - typically with a transparent disguise of trying to do me some favour to show what a good friend they are to me - for the past two weeks does it, I react differently. Especially if it makes me uncomfortable to the point I think it's going to be a growing problem with someone I have to work with.
That's how flirting works. Different reactions are given to different people.
So anyway, anecdote time if we're doing this. My general impression, as I've said before on this topic, is that most men I've worked with have been entirely decent nice people. I think it does vary by sector and country. In Germany, I have never encountered discernible sexism ever. I'm sure it must exist, but nowhere I've been. Absolutely great. In the UK, I've only a couple of times encountered real sexism in the IT sector. And in both cases, the attitude of everyone else in the place nipped the sexist people's behaviour in the bud (for which I was very grateful). Amongst Marketing and Sales people, incidences of sexism has been much higher. I think that is a general symptom of the kind of sleazy circles and old-boy network environments of this sector. You get a lot of sexism in marketing and sales departments or companies. The worst sector in the UK, ime, is the financial sector. Here sexism is high and especially, in my brief overlaps with it, in The City. There is a long way to go in eradicating sexism there. But in IT departments in the UK, mostly fine imo. Good, in fact.
The USA has more of a sexism problem. In fact, outside of the Middle East, I think it's the worst. MOST of the people I've worked with in the USA have been alright, but it's definitely a much greater incidence of sexist attitudes I have found there and I've worked in a couple of places where the sexism is very real and has very definitely adversely affected women's career opportunities and earnings. I'm sorry to say it, but I wouldn't particularly want to work for a US corporation again based on some of my experiences there.
Anyway, all the above is anecdotal and only ONE PERSON's experience (mine). So please only take it as that. (Paris, because she's the only discernibly female representation we have in the icons. ;) )
>>"Different reactions for different people" as an attempt to explain away that double standard really does not cut it.
What double standard are you referring to? That someone reacts differently to someone they find attractive and non-threatening to someone they don't find attractive and do feel threatened by? That's the example I gave and I think as explanations go, it's a pretty clear one. What explanation for reacting differently to sexual advances from two different people do think is more likely, than how welcome they are?
Keep in mind that the situation you've raised is not one of sexism. It's not related to the difficult situation this woman faced with rape threats, it's not about career opportunity or discrimination. You posted a story about someone coming onto a woman sexually in the workplace. You held it up as wrong that in one case she flirted back with the "hot guy" and then treated the other guy "from IT" differently. So yes, my "explanation" that the difference is down to whether the advance was welcome or not is likely the right one. That's not a "double-standard", unless you think that someone should respond equally to sexual advances regardless of whether they're welcome or not.
Basically, you've gone off on a tangent about something that isn't an issue of sexism. A man is equally entitled to respond differently to two different women flirting with him.
@h4rm0ny
What double standard are you referring to? That someone reacts differently to someone they find attractive and non-threatening to someone they don't find attractive and do feel threatened by?
You've concocted a lot of specious circumstances to try and justify what boils down to:
"This guy is attractive so he can say whatever he likes" and
"I don't like the look of this guy so if he so much as puts a foot wrong I'll try and wreck his livelihood".
Which is at least as bad an attitude as any of the perceived sexism, in fact it damn near is sexism.
There was no threat, the guy was just not attractive. In the outcome of both cases, the complaint was not upheld (by the female HR people), and in the second one the person involved was a persistent stirrer and made herself unpopular by her actions.
As for going off a tangent, no. I followed the tangent off from a previous comment.
@werdsmith, re h4rm0ny - I get the impression you are being obtuse. No doubt h4rm0ny can speak for herself, but ISTM she is talking about the everyday realities of 'human relationships', not the everyday realities of manoeuvring and manipulation in the dog-eat-dog world of clawing your way up the greasy pole of notional 'status'.
Too many of us are far too easily offended, it's part of our unhealthy approach to life. Far too many of us are willing to cause offence, it's part of our unhealthy approach to life. Some of us manage to combine both weaknesses.
Thankfully many of us generally (even almost always) keep ourselves in check, are considerate and caring towards others, and willing to give others the benefit of the doubt, or just let stupidity and crassness go, on the basis that it's actually their problem, not mine.
There are a few who imagine that being crass and stupid and downright objectionable is their prerogative. They need taking down, for their own sakes as well as for the sake of those who have to deal with their abject failure to learn that they are not the centre of everything.
>>You've concocted a lot of specious circumstances to try and justify what boils down to: ""This guy is attractive so he can say whatever he likes" and "I don't like the look of this guy so if he so much as puts a foot wrong I'll try and wreck his livelihood".
Have I? I wasn't there and your post begins by complaining that a "hot guy" (your words) made sexual comments to a girl and she was okay with it but that an "unattractive, creepy IT guy" came and commented sexually on her appearance and she did not like that. You then got annoyed, saying that treating people differently based on whether their advances were welcome or not wasn't an "explanation". Now I don't know whether or not her going to HR and complaining about him was justified or not - like I said, I wasn't there. But I can say a few things about it. Firstly, if this thing by itself results in "wrecking his livelihood" there's some context missing from this story. Was his livelihood actually wrecked? Or did he just get called in for a chat about workplace etiquette? Secondly, you well know, or should, that there is a lot more to communication than just words repeated on a page. You complain that his comments were less lewd than the "hot guy's". But that's not the criteria by which such things are assessed. They're assessed by the intent behind them, by the person delivering them. Like it or not, that's the facts of life. Nobody gets to go "He said she had a nice arse and she didn't mind, so she has to be okay when I tell her how soft her skin is", or whatever.
Maybe she was jumpy and over-reacted and he would have taken a mild rebuff and never bothered her again. Maybe she didn't and he wouldn't. But either way, what has this to do with the story we're talking about or the general case? Is it your position that women shouldn't be able to file a complaint about a guy who bothers them sexually in the work place? Or that a woman should be mandated to complain when she doesn't want to? Is it that you feel women have too much power over male colleagues by means of being able to report them for sexual advances in the workplace? If so, are you saying that a male employee is not allowed to file complaints? What exactly is your contention here? Because you seem to just be complaining about a double standard between attractive people and unattractive people. Which, you know...
Making sexual advances to someone in the workplace is a risky business. Is there really anybody that this is news to? You don't do it unless you have a reasonable expectation that it wont bother the recipient, and if you do do it, you try to do it in such a way that it minimizes embarrassment and allows a get-out for all concerned. It sounds like your "hot guy" has such skills and that your "creepy IT guy" came across as, well, creepy and threatening. And for all we know, he did. So I refer you back to my middle paragraph - what exactly is your complaint here? That women shouldn't be able to voice complains to HR if someone makes a creepy and threatening advance to them? That they should have to complain even when the advance is welcome? That a specific person reacted in a way you didn't like and you think this is representative of women generally? Because all of this is how it comes across.
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I wasn't there and your post begins by complaining that a "hot guy" (your words) made sexual comments to a girl and she was okay with it but that an "unattractive, creepy IT guy" came and commented sexually on her appearance and she did not like that.
No, he said the "creepy" guy made "comparatively innocuous" compliments. That his statements were of a sexual nature was your assertion, and that is not a fair assumption to make. As you say; you weren't there.
Or that a woman should be mandated to complain when she doesn't want to?
Many professional responsibilities regarding standards and ethics include things which an individual (of ANY gender) may not want to do, or personally feel no need to do.
what exactly is your complaint here? That women shouldn't be able to voice complains to HR if someone makes a creepy and threatening advance to them? That they should have to complain even when the advance is welcome?
If making sexual advances is acceptable in a workplace, then she has no grounds to complain (to HR) when she doesn't like it. If sexual advances are *not* acceptable in a workplace, then she should not accept such behaviour, even when she likes it. That's called professionalism.
I have, worked in a lot of textile environments, not quite 99% but definetly near it. Never really got sexist harrasment, attempts to be set up on date, many more questions about every daily facet of your life and friends and family than a bloke would care to ask, burning ears from some of the conversations (still take notes it might come in handy), but thats it. Although technically pretty sure if the situation was reversed and some men talked like a group of women can talk about about sex it would make them uncorfotable, pretty sure some blokes would be as well.
I managed a 90% female team once a few years back and I have to admit I have never dealt with so many bullying issues before or after. All the bullying was of other females I hasten to add and all by the younger members.
And this is a company that values diversity and equality very highly. We did resolve it (or did it just get hidden by the perpetrators better?) but it was quite an unexpected shock for me I can tell you.
"Have you ever experienced being a man in a 99% female workplace?"
Yes. And there were sometimes inappropriate things said but never about physical attributes and almost always followed by a very embarrassed silence; in some cases an apology (almost always unnecessary), and only in one case a very nasty "now you know how we feel" comment that the other women shouted down so fast .....
Out of the work place, one of the most fun teams I've worked in. In the work place, very professional, with occasional close-to-the-line (but never over it) jokes. The only time it got stupid was when US visitors came and had to have humoUr explained as they couldn't see that line .....
1) How endemic is it? I mean, what percentage of males in IT commit these crimes (and yes, I consider it criminal behaviour)? A single sociopathic, misogynistic lose has a huge "force multiplier" nowadays and can reach hundreds of women anonymously. Is this the same minority of sick weirdos responsible for as many as 50% of women in IT receiving this sort of abuse?
2) Is vigilantism an answer if the police won't deal with it? >.<
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