back to article Feds tell court: Apple 'deliberately raised technological barriers' to thwart iPhone warrant

The US Department of Justice has filed fresh claims against Apple in the ongoing battle over whether the FBI can force the iGiant to help agents unlock a killer's iPhone. In a brief [PDF] filed Thursday to the US District Court of Central California, the DoJ said Apple had made a "deliberate marketing decision" to develop …

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  1. David Kelly 2

    There Is No Freedom In China

    Its so sad the US Government has to revert to the childish observation that "Apple accommodated China." The Chinese government owns everything including its citizens. Once Upon A Time the USA the Land Of The Free And Home Of The Brave. Perhaps one day it will once again.

    1. bazza Silver badge

      Re: There Is No Freedom In China

      Hmmmm, and what do you suppose it is that makes America the land of the free and home of the brave? What is it that guarantees that?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: There Is No Freedom In China

        If Apple are forced to comply with this warrant this case creates precedent which means Murrika is no longer the land of the free (for speech, privacy etc.) Constitution or no...

        But you'd have to be an idiot to have believed that you were free anyway.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: There Is No Freedom In China

          If Apple are forced to comply with this warrant this case creates precedent which means Murrika is no longer the land of the free (for speech, privacy etc.) Constitution or no...

          It will also become a land with an industry predicted to be worth $170B by next year that won't be able to sell as much as a patch cord. Do they honestly think anyone with either half a brain or with a need to comply with Data Protection laws would buy US kit or services after that?

          Not that the FBI cares, it will get its funding anyway as it's the (remaining) tax payers who get to cough up, but I hope that someone realises that this is equivalent to stop asking car manufacturers to sell powerful cars because they keep getting away from the police when chased.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: There Is No Freedom In China

        Hmmmm, and what do you suppose it is that makes America the land of the free and home of the brave? What is it that guarantees that?

        Ooooh, a guessing game. Let me guess! Is it:

        - that thing they now happily ignore called the constitution?

        - the fact that race makes you more likely to get shot by law enforcement?

        - because everyone has guns as they are all afraid of, err, people with guns?

        - because they can claim following their own laws by simply planting a prison somewhere abroad?

        The US has got a lot of potential, but it's presently acting like a teenage bully on crack complaining that nobody likes it. Well, duh.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        TheDonald (tm)

        Makes America Grate again

      4. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

        Bloody obvious; dummy!

        > What do you suppose it is that makes America the land of the free and home of the brave?

        Since they are all armed to the teeth, no deputy sheriff would dream of picking a fight with a USanal.

        I can't wait for them to invade Canada and force the Canute to ipwn source Blackberries and turn them into Redneckberries or Whitehatberries or something so we can just pop along to an iFBi doughnut parlour, knock over a M iBlacksuit and read all the unsavoury goings on in pink tutuland.

    2. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: There Is No Freedom In China

      Freedom aside.

      It is very simple - no certification, no sale. Apple complied with the requirements to certify its hardware and software for sale in China. It could have chosen not sell there, but it decided to sell a country specific version.

      There are no such certification requirements in USA. No western country has them at present.

      If FBI wants them, it should go and make them a law same as they have with Calea and various telecoms regs. Until that is the case, any technological measures on the phones and their services are not directly against them. They are simply the last in line of the attackers behind all kinds of crooks, fraudsters and thieves. They are not being specifically singled out as an object of countermeasures.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: There Is No Freedom In China

        Apple is exactly leading to that. If law enforcement agencies will face the risk they can't access a *single* phone with a valid warrant, politicians will ask, and will obtain, legislation to access *every* phone. There are clear risks Apple will obtain just a Pyrrhic victory, which may sustain its business for a while, but will lead to every phone being accessible.

        It would be far better to ensure *only* criminal devices are accessible a valid warrant, after being legally seized, and under controlled conditions.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There Is No Freedom In China

      Yes, it was the land of the free and home of the brave. But then they started exterminating the braves, took the resources from the remaining ones and put them in piss poor reservations so they could be equally free.

      And let's not forget 'they' were largely European immigrants, and Europe had been doing just the same for a few hundred years in South America, the Far East and later Africa.

      Completely off topic, of course, but I just thought I'd mention it anyway.

    4. JaitcH
      Happy

      Re: There Is No Freedom In China

      Ever been to China or any 'authoritarian' country?

      The average Joe in such countries doesn't usually have dealings with police, etc. in their ordinary daily life. Even Foreigners can go almost anywhere unhindered and poke around without drawing official attention.

      If the Chinese government 'owned' the people, things would be very different to what they are.

      The key to a peaceful existence is to ignore the political classes and just do your thing. Even the citizen 'spies' located on almost every block are harmless these days, besides we know who they are.

      When I go on a buying trip I spend my first week or two orienting myself and locating products I want to buy. I leave my money in the hotel. Finally, when I have refined my shopping list I hire a 'heavy' and go out and spend my money.

      In ViietNam the government structures are interesting. Every province is a replica of the national Ha Noi government. except for the military and ministry of foreign affairs. The police, part of the military, have two bosses - the local People Committee (council) and Ha Noi.

      Ha Noi doesn't trust the provinces, for good reason, so it has a duplicated police/security function whose sole remit is to monitor the provincial activities. They look at the big picture - and keep an eye out for crime in the regular police and the Peoples Committees.

      They don't have time to bug the whole population or to monitor every Foreigner. They know who their targets are.

      And the average Joe citizen in VietNam simply ignores the politicians and gets on with Job 1 - making money.

      Sure, we have city level inspectors for health and buildings bit many of the jobs are consigned to the bureaucratic handy people called Peoples Police (Cong An). They do many civil type functions from registering people in their homes, pollution control, crane inspection, etc.

      And it works.

      I am amazed as I drive my 3,000-4,000 kilometres a month around Ho Chi Minh City/SaiGon just how functional things are when compared to the West. No licenced outlets for alcohol, no petty minded wanna-be Plods being bossy.

      In the West everything is monitored. Smartmeters are obviously the latest way to control the population (read the UN documentation on it). You are scanned, added to databases, tracked. Hardly a life of freedom.

      I have been to over a hundred countries in my lifetime and some of the most oppressive regimes are in the West - the USA and the UK being near the top.

      So before you go knocking other countries, take a hard look at where you live.

      And when was your last interaction with Plod or the Cops? Mine was over a tear ago. That's freedom.

      VietNam has been my home for 23 years and I hardly have any dealings with officialdom

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: There Is No Freedom In China

        Ever been to China or any 'authoritarian' country?

        The average Joe in such countries doesn't usually have dealings with police, etc. in their ordinary daily life. Even Foreigners can go almost anywhere unhindered and poke around without drawing official attention.

        Yup, Thailand, HK, Singapore, but not yet mainland China or Vietnam, and by that I mean working, not wandering around as a tourist (well, OK, initially you do both :) ) so you get some feel for the culture and working life (that is, if you're interested - some people I worked with mainly remained in the foreigner's ghetto :) ). Vietnam sounds interesting, must find something to do there.

        Thailand was different though, because I was driving around in the car of the deputy major :).

      2. DropBear

        Re: There Is No Freedom In China

        So if you make damn sure you have nothing to hide, you probably have nothing to fear...? Is that it? Is that supposed to convince me how "non-oppressive" authoritarian countries are and make me feel safe? Look, are you f#####g serious...?!?

      3. Jaybus

        Re: There Is No Freedom In China

        The problem is, while the current regime in the authoritarian country may have things running smoothly now with little influence on the ordinary daily life of its citizenry, what is to stop that from changing, either by a change of mind of the current regime or by a future regime? The same was said of Nazi controlled Germany in the early 1930's, so the fear of authoritarian government is not without legitimacy.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There Is No Freedom In China

      If you believe that you live in a free country, then start eating your double-patty cheeseburgers, held vertically -> (||) , in public. Ignore all complaints. See how long until you're electroshocked and tossed in prison.

      1. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

        Re: There Is No Freedom In China

        > f you believe that you live in a free country, then start eating your double-patty cheeseburgers, held vertically -> (||) , in public. Ignore all complaints. See how long until you're electroshocked and tossed in prison.

        I read that... Pardon?

  2. Oengus
    Black Helicopters

    Single case Today --- ?? tomorrow...

    The DoJ, meanwhile, says that the order would do the opposite, and would only be applicable in a single case. "The court's order is modest. It applies to a single iPhone, and it allows Apple to decide the least burdensome means of complying," Uncle Sam's lawyers wrote.

    "As Apple well knows, the order does not compel it to unlock other iPhones or to give the government a universal 'master key' or 'back door'."

    How many other "single" cases will there be?  Demonstrating that they can do it for a single case can open the floodgates.

    I would almost bet that the FBI don't give a "rats arse" about the information on the Syed Farook's phone as they already know that there is nothing of use to them.  It was, after all, his work phone. The phones that would have had useful information were destroyed.  The FBI just want to use the "terrorism" trump card to get public opinion and pressure on their side and to get Apple to prove that they can make the phone accessable.

    Once Apple prove they can do it all bets are off as to how many "single" cases there will be.

    1. Old Used Programmer

      Re: Single case Today --- ?? tomorrow...

      Officials in New York City said that they have 175 iPhones they'd like to get into.

    2. Pascal Monett Silver badge
      Flame

      Re: Single case Today --- ?? tomorrow...

      Absolutely. And saying things like "the order does not compel it to unlock other iPhones" as if it is a valid point for Apple to comply is just insulting our intelligence.

      I find it hilarious that the FBI is accusing Apple of "raising barriers deliberately" to "thwart the law".

      It's called progress, you asshole. And it's the law that will have to adapt, because encryption ain't going away any more.

      Maybe if you hadn't been so greedy about data collection, maybe if you'd thought about it a bit and only took what you could use, maybe then this world would still be surfing in blissful ignorance.

      But you didn't do that. You acted like a hog at a buffet and now you're pissed that there's a guard at the door that won't let you in any more.

      Well tough if up, Suit Man. Go back to tailing actual suspects, like you're supposed to. Maybe some criminals will escape you, for a while, but there will be a lot less innocents that will be harassed, and that is a Good Thing (tm).

      1. Charles 9

        Re: Single case Today --- ?? tomorrow...

        "Well tough if up, Suit Man. Go back to tailing actual suspects, like you're supposed to."

        Well, Mr. Oh So Smart, how do you do that when they're in a country hostile to any and all westerners? IOW, how do you arrest someone who's protected by sovereignty?

        1. Moonunit

          Re: Single case Today --- ?? tomorrow...

          Guide me here, please. I'm trying to work out quite what your point is ... it could well just be that I have insufficient caffeine in my veins and arteries. Probably.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Single case Today --- ?? tomorrow...

          Well, Mr. Oh So Smart, how do you do that when they're in a country hostile to any and all westerners? IOW, how do you arrest someone who's protected by sovereignty?

          The FBI only have jurisdiction to operate within the borders of the USA. If a suspect is "in a country hostile to any and all westerners", that isn't the USA, then that's not the FBI's bag.

          And the CIA, whose job that would then be, generally doesn't give a monkeys about anyone's laws.

        3. Pascal Monett Silver badge

          @Charles 9

          "how do you arrest someone who's protected by sovereignty?"

          Thank you for revealing that you work for the NSA.

          Because only the NSA thinks about arresting people in other countries.

          The rest of the world writes an extradition request - because the "suspect" is PROTECTED BY SOVEREIGNTY. Way to demonstrate that you forgot to engage your brain when posting. Which explains how you could think of having his phone when he's in another country.

          You must live in Colorado. Go on smoking, it's apparently good stuff.

    3. Richard 12 Silver badge

      Re: Single case Today --- ?? tomorrow...

      No, there have already been two cases in court.

      The other was refused by the judge.

      Perjury is a crime. Time to prosecute the DoJ.

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Single case Today --- ?? tomorrow...

      You mean that after the iPhone is invulnerable there won't be any more crimes in the US?

      Just wait for one of your dears to be killed, and to know the name of the killer is only in a phone nobody can access...

      1. I. Aproveofitspendingonspecificprojects

        Wait....

        > Just wait for one of your dears to be killed, and to know the name of the killer is only in a phone nobody can access...

        Isn't that just the point?

        According to the only American security expert I trust the FBI are "respectfully" telling fibs again. There are decades of examples of them telling lies. What makes you think they are telling the truth now?

        And what did they tell you so convincingly about the names that are actually known to be on the bloody phone you have obviously only just heard about?

        I am tempted to call you a shmuck you shmuck but that would be name calling. So I will resist the urge.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Wait....

          "I am tempted to call you a shmuck you shmuck but that would be name calling. So I will resist the urge."

          And an insult to real shmucks.

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Single case Today --- ?? tomorrow...

        "Just wait for one of your dears to be killed, and to know the name of the killer is only in a phone nobody can access..."

        And if nobody can access it how would one know?

        Even if you're going to create straw men as the basis for emotional arguments you still need to retain some traces of logic in there.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    14 people. So what? Mass shootings are part of American culture. There's no point in getting all indignant about something that's a weekly spectacle. Part of being a true American is accepting that you're probably going to be gunned down at Walmart one day.

    Sit back and enjoy your 2nd amendment and mass shootings.

    1. LaeMing

      Yes, though even in the US, the chances of being gunned down by a terrorist or a local nutter are still pretty miniscule.

      1. Michael Thibault

        >miniscule

        but not 0, and that's where the fun begins.

        1. RIBrsiq

          And when the NRA gets their way and every school kid is issued a gun at 6th grade or something, there will be even more fun!

          Can you imagine the excitement when a nutcase opens fire in, say, a dark movie theatre full of armed, ill-trained, civilians?

          1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

            We've seen that already

            Remember the Chechens who took over a Theatre in Moscow? How many 'citizens' got mown down then the Special Forces stomed it. There won't be much difference in the body count with your scenario.

            1. Charles 9

              Re: We've seen that already

              Then again, just yesterday, a couple held hostage in Mississippi managed to use their home gun to take out an escaped killer (capital murder at that) who was holding them hostage. So we have a certified self-defense case that made the mainstream headlines.

            2. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: We've seen that already

              "Remember the Chechens who took over a Theatre in Moscow? How many 'citizens' got mown down then the Special Forces stomed it. There won't be much difference in the body count with your scenario."

              Since you mentioned that it's worth pointing out that if Apple win this one then such an act could be planned in America and there'd be very little to stop it being carried out.

              What Apple and everyone else seems to be forgotten is that the most useful laws, the ones that keep us safe, are the ones that talk about "conspiracy to commit....". The remaining statutes are all about what happens after everyone has been killed in the theatre, after it is too late to prevent it.

              Stopping such a thing mean arresting and jailing someone. But the FBI and the courts cannot put someone in jail for conspiracy to commit a terrorist attack if there isn't any evidence to support that. People driving somewhere with guns is not unusual in America. It only becomes a criminal conspiracy if there's something else (beyond guns in cars) to suggest that a criminal act is planned (emails, texts, etc). In the future those might be locked up nice and safe in an iPhone.

              In the San Bernadino case the attackers destroyed their personal phones. Seems they'd needn't have bothered.

              In countries where possession of a gun is itself a criminal offence it's easier to prevent such an attack. No evidence beyond the existence of the gun in one's possession is needed.

              1. Charles 9

                Re: We've seen that already

                "What Apple and everyone else seems to be forgotten is that the most useful laws..."

                ...are completely useless against a lone wolf who conceals everything until the act itself, after which it's too damn late. Some things you just can't predict or prevent, like the passenger jet pilot who chooses this day to lock the cabin door after the copilot goes to the can and suddenly plunge his get into the sea (and I think this actually happened about 10 years ago).

                ...are also the easiest to abuse by someone(s) trying to subvert civilization. Which is why it's a tradeoff. Do you restrain your government and allow your world to be destroyed from without or give them free reign and let your world be destroyed from within instead?

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: We've seen that already

                  "...are completely useless against a lone wolf who conceals everything until the act itself, after which it's too damn late. Some things you just can't predict or prevent"

                  Oh it's very easy to predict in a land where anyone can go get a lethal weapon that there will be idiots who go out and use them on other people. What's crazy is that, knowing this, people still campaign for that idiots' right to go and do that. They're practically saying "shoot me, shoot me, I defend your right to shoot me!". Getting shot really, really sucks. Perhaps they should introduce that into school curricula?

                  Some things you just can't predict or prevent, like the passenger jet pilot who chooses this day to lock the cabin door after the copilot goes to the can and suddenly plunge his get into the sea (and I think this actually happened about 10 years ago).

                  The GermanWings flight 9525 crash in the Alps 24 Mar 2015 has been attributed, ultimately, to too great a respect for medical privacy in Germany. Turns out lots of people (his doctor) knew the guy was crazy and unfit to fly, but due to medical privacy rules didn't do anything about telling his bosses. Their unwillingness to break the rules cost hundreds of people their lives. Doctor heal thyself. It was utterly predictable.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    FAIL

                    Re: We've seen that already

                    "due to medical privacy rules didn't do anything about telling his bosses. Their unwillingness to break the rules cost hundreds of people their lives. Doctor heal thyself. It was utterly predictable."

                    A) It wasn't "utterly predictable" that the GermanWings pilot would suicide into the Alps. If it was, I am sure that German law allows for the doctor to have the patient/co-pilot committed as a danger to himself or society. You have to remember that Germany has a really horrible and somewhat recent history of sending the mentally ill to the gas chambers by the thousands. So I can see why Germany might have a high level of subsequent societal regret and resulting protection for mentally ill people that might even be more strict than you would find in Britain or the U.S.

                    B) "Unwillingness to break the rules". You say that as if the "rules" were just half-assed together yesterday as part of a drunken dare. The rules are in place to A) afford some privacy to the patient suffering from a treatable medical condition in a social environment where others may ostracize or criticize him if they knew about his health B) to allow this patient to earn a living without his employer being able to look at his health records and decide that they would rather hire someone from a healthier background C) to prevent the government from making judgments about the patient's legal, political and property rights without due process.

                    And regarding your first paragraph:

                    C) "What's crazy is that, knowing this, people still campaign for that idiots' right to go and do that." Hmmm, I have lived in the U.S. all my life, and I haven't seen anybody campaigning to let the mentally ill go out and buy guns. What I have seen is people saying that we can't always tell who is mentally ill, and whether they are so mentally ill that they will snap and go on a shooting spree, and whether they are that mentally ill NOW, but they might recover their health and be able to exercise their gun rights responsibly given time and proper therapy, or whether they seem pretty healthy right now, but could snap if put in a sufficiently stressful personal/economic/political situation at some point down the road.

                  2. Charles 9

                    Re: We've seen that already

                    "Oh it's very easy to predict in a land where anyone can go get a lethal weapon that there will be idiots who go out and use them on other people. What's crazy is that, knowing this, people still campaign for that idiots' right to go and do that. They're practically saying "shoot me, shoot me, I defend your right to shoot me!". Getting shot really, really sucks. Perhaps they should introduce that into school curricula?"

                    Except the worst massacres in American history didn't use guns!. 9/11 was box cutters and hijacked passenger jets. Oklahoma City was homemade ANFO (which can still be obtained today if you're a farmer and then renatured like these guys did), and Bath Township was legal excavation charges (again because the killer was a farmer).

                    "The GermanWings flight 9525 crash in the Alps 24 Mar 2015 has been attributed, ultimately, to too great a respect for medical privacy in Germany."

                    The one I was thinking about was Air Egypt Flight 990. It was the copilot who did it. Based on flight data, best theory was that he did it deliberately and TTBOMK he had no prior record prior to the incident. Some even speculate this was the inspiration for 9/11.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: We've seen that already

                      Native Americans may object that the worst massacre in American history didn't use guns...

                      1. Dave Hilling

                        Re: We've seen that already

                        Except most native Americans were killed by small pox and other disease not guns.

                2. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: We've seen that already

                  "...sea... ...(and I think this actually happened about 10 years ago)."

                  You spelled 'mountain' and '1' incorrectly.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: We've seen that already

                Since you mentioned that it's worth pointing out that if Apple win this one then such an act could be planned in America and there'd be very little to stop it being carried out.

                What Apple and everyone else seems to be forgotten is that the most useful laws, the ones that keep us safe, are the ones that talk about "conspiracy to commit....". The remaining statutes are all about what happens after everyone has been killed in the theatre, after it is too late to prevent it.

                BS, and I'm talking from a perspective of someone who lived though the IRA's use of fertiliser in London for less flowery purposes which the Met Police was still able to thwart repeatedly without such deeply invasive powers.

                The key aspect of a CONSPIRACY is that it takes multiple people, and the relationship between those is established by meta data, which happens to be the sort of information the FBI already has access to without too much effort (there are some controls on it, but they're pretty weak because they managed to convince law makers that it's not "real" data).

                If FBI and agencies are critically dependent on what is held on private devices, I think the US taxpayer is due a refund to the tune of quite a few billion dollars because all the other resources and privileges are obviously not sufficient. Time to stop the mass surveillance then, and the spying.

            3. Mark Burgum

              Re: We've seen that already

              Except as far as I can recall at the Moscow Theatre most of the deaths where due to a 'chemical' weapon based on a narcotic which the special forces released into the theatre which dulled the senses. except the concentration got to high and people died of it, partially because it was secret so the SF didn't tell the medics what was going on.

          2. Michael Habel

            What does the National Recovery Administration have to do with anything?

          3. Dave Hilling

            Thats how it used to be

            Except when I was a kid thats pretty much how it was. We all had bb guns, real guns, nerf guns and we knew which ones we could point at each other and which ones got your ass beat. If you removed the gang violence in like 4 cities, and suicides the USA would have one of the lowest gun violence rates in the world...pretty amazing for a land with over 300 million guns.

          4. Michael Thibault
            Trollface

            Let me FTFY...

            "Can you imagine the excitement when a nutcase opens fire in, say, a dark movie theatre full of armed, ill-trained, nutcases?"

            I think I get the picture, no?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Let me FTFY...

              "Can you imagine the excitement when a nutcase opens fire in, say, a dark movie theatre full of armed, ill-trained, nutcases?"

              I think I get the picture, no?

              Yup. Aforementioned nutcase would only have to fire one bullet into the ceiling to cause a massacre involving many innocents. As far as I can see, that's a terrorist's wet dream.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Sweet Irony

        Probably about the same as being gunned down by your own kid.

        http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jamie-gilt-profile-who-is-the-gun-rights-activist-shot-by-her-four-year-old-son-a6922661.html

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Still higher than in more advanced countries...

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