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back to article FBI iPhone unlock order reaction: Trump, Rubio say no to Apple. EFF and Twitter say yes

A moment of mass collective commentary is upon us following the response of Apple CEO Tim Cook to a judge's demand that the computer company unlock the iPhone of San Bernardino shooter Syed Farook. Since it's been only a few hours since Cook's letter in which he called the request "an unprecedented step which threatens the …

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  1. djstardust

    Well played Apple

    I'm not an Apple fan in the slightest, in fact I detest them as a company.

    However they have played this one 100% correctly. Well done Tim Cook. Your open letter explains perfectly why the phones are encrypted and I take my hat off to you (metaphorically speaking of course)

    44 4 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Well played Apple

      And let's not forget Obama - after all, as part of the Executive Branch, aren't the FBI following the President's orders?

      Obama can stop all this with one simple Executive Order - why hasn't he?

      12 3 Reply
      1. Eddy Ito
        Reply Icon

        Re: Well played Apple

        I don't understand. The FBI is essentially following his orders. I don't see how he could compel Apple any more than the judge who issued the order.

        0 0 Reply
        1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Well played Apple

          He has a large number of troops, almost unlimited supplies of electricity and the authority to ex-judicially execute US citizens anywhere in the world by drone strike

          1 6 Reply
          1. Wzrd1 Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: Well played Apple

            ".. and the authority to ex-judicially execute US citizens anywhere in the world by drone strike"

            Which is why a certain group of "militia" were all killed in a forestry center not too long ago, right?

            Oh wait, they were stopped by a roadblock and arrested.

            Don't be a tosser and ignore what a war is. Citizens were also targeted during WWII, when they were working with the enemy.

            Or are wars different now and they're really pillow fights? It sure didn't look that way to me, or to our allied forces when we were fighting them.

            Still trying to figure out the Iraq thing, as the US gained no oil, that's largely going to Europe. Maybe it was what I first theorized, "He tried to kill my dad".

            0 0 Reply
            1. Mike VandeVelde
              Reply Icon
              Paris Hilton

              "Don't be a tosser and ignore what a war is."

              I'm sorry, I could have been paying closer attention maybe it slipped past me, but has someone declared war? I thought that was a quaint old tradition that has been neglected for the last 75 years?

              0 0 Reply
            2. Anonymous Coward
              Reply Icon
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Well played Apple

              Still trying to figure out the Iraq thing, as the US gained no oil, that's largely going to Europe. Maybe it was what I first theorized, "He tried to kill my dad".

              The Iraq war seems to have been over money. Euros, to be precise. The US ability to borrow gazillions from other countries to sponsor its own habits is based on the US Dollar being used as default reserver currency, and as energy currency. Sadam had started to sell oil in Euros, and that was such a profitable exercise that the Americans needed to show all the other ME players the severe consequences of doing that instead of dollars. Now, even the US can't just start a war somewhere, which is why they dreamt up the WMD excuse.

              Wars are very profitable for some people, and if you want to see what certain people in the UK were up to I would suggest you get hold of the Worricker trilogy which is a very clever way of talking about the events without being accused of leaking secrets and which may have lead to some serious cursing in a newly established private bank...

              0 0 Reply
        2. circuitguy
          Reply Icon

          Re: Well played Apple

          actually Obama can screw apple by reversing his decision that stop Samsung import ban on apple products it won. or order the treasury to freeze all apple bank accounts, etc.. under the nation security act.....

          But Al Gore still represents Apple, Obama usually listens to the political side of advice from Gore verses national interest....

          1 0 Reply
          1. Wzrd1 Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: Well played Apple

            "or order the treasury to freeze all apple bank accounts, etc.. under the nation security act....."

            What is rm -rf / again?

            How difficult is it to make thermite and set it on the SAN units?

            That's a whole lot faster than a warrant can be served.

            0 0 Reply
      2. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Well played Apple

        Obama can stop all this with one simple Executive Order - why hasn't he?

        Because he uses his brain. Although I can't comment on any other occasion, in this case he's been smart to let the law play out instead of interfering.

        6 1 Reply
        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Well played Apple

          Because he uses his brain. Although I can't comment on any other occasion, in this case he's been smart to let the law play out instead of interfering.

          Sorry, that seems like a copout. This is a blatant attack by the Obama administration on the 5th and 14th Amendments on self-incrimination and right-to-privacy. If Obama is the constitutional scholar that he claims to be, he should stop this right now instead of seeing if the FBI is successful in subverting the Constitution.

          Remember "Blame Bush"? Now it's "Blame Obama"!

          0 0 Reply
    2. Wzrd1 Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Well played Apple

      As usual, the press gets it wrong.

      Apple unlocked his phone - gladly, once a court order was obtained and presented.

      Apple refuses to write a new OS that disposes of the cryptography, thus undoing all encrypted Apple telephones.

      Let's review now, the FBI asked Apple to write an entire new operating system, to unlock, allegedly one telephone that was already unlocked.

      How much do we have to pay for a new commercial operating system, but the department of justice wants one for free?!

      In short, enslave corporation, acquire a free product and allegedly use it once. Just like GCHQ and the NSA only slurped once.

      Frankly, I'd make rapid plans to move the entire company offshore.

      0 2 Reply
  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Twitter

    What a lot of noise

    4 3 Reply
  3. Pavlov's obedient mutt

    Twitter..?

    wait, people are still using that? Didn't that British dude, oh, what's his name.. french potato thing.. um. Fry - declare it to be dead and over?

    3 3 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Twitter..?

      Sort of. He went full hipster and said it was cooler before it was popular.

      4 0 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Twitter..?

        Yeah, but Fry's got form for spouting techno bollocks....

        Sat Navs that beam their signal back into space is just one example..

        * I like Fry, he's a funny, well educated bloke but he is not technologically adept...

        Why do you think he uses twitter, only 150** (??) CHR$ to type.

        **no idea, don't use it. Cant be arsed to google it. The saddos amongst you will know...

        1 0 Reply
  4. aaaa

    Why is this even necessary?

    Can someone tell me why this is even necessary? Presumably the iPhone encryption algorithm is a known one. Why can't they just clone the device (by extracting the flash chip if necessary) then run the desired brute force attack on equipment of their own choosing. Once it's decrypted they can put I back in the phone if they really need to - which I doubt they do. AFAICT whilst you *can* use a complex passcode on iPhone - this particular one is protected with just a 4 digit key. It's not going to be hard to crack once the data is off the phone. If I'm right then this is clearly NOT about 'just this one phone'. I guess I must be missing something obvious - maybe someone at El Reg can write an article explaining it to me.

    6 3 Reply
    1. ckm5
      Reply Icon

      Re: Why is this even necessary?

      There is protection on the phone for brute forcing the passcode. After N tries, it deletes the decryption key AFAIK. I think N=10, but it could be more. After that, the only way you can recover is to wipe the device.

      That said, if you image the phone, you could brute force it N-times with no issue (just re-image). Also, there are known vulnerabilities in iOS, I don't see why the FBI is not able to exploit them. AFAIK, a ton of iOS 8 vulnerabilities were exposed when they released iOS 9... Finally, you can brute force the keys - if this is so important, instead of waiting, the FBI could have used the time to run a brute-force attack - it's not like they have to preserve technology secrecy because it might be exposed at a trial.

      But I agree, I think the FBI is trying to score political points, not get anything of actual value. It seems to be part of a wider fight around encryption.

      15 3 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why is this even necessary?

        Earlier El Reg articles today have explained how there is apparently inherent protection against cloning. Basically if you take anything out of the device then it no longer has its necessary relationship with other components in the phone. It's a jigsaw puzzle that only works when all the pieces are in that particular phone.

        One of the interesting things is that the phone was the guy's work phone. He had destroyed all his personal devices. The implication is that he had made sure he had never compromised his work phone.

        11 0 Reply
        1. sisk
          Reply Icon

          Re: Why is this even necessary?

          Basically if you take anything out of the device then it no longer has its necessary relationship with other components in the phone.

          Could that not be counterfeited in a virtual machine once you've extracted and read the flash memory?

          3 1 Reply
          1. Palpy
            Reply Icon

            Re: Why is this even necessary? "counterfeited in a VM..."

            Mmmm, I don't think so. As mentioned before, even in the 5C iPhones without Secure Enclave, the passcode is combined with a hardware-generated key -- and that key would not be known to a VM. From the TrailOfBits blog:

            "Devices with A6 processors, such as the iPhone 5C, also contain a hardware key that cannot ever be read and also 'tangle' this hardware key with the phone passcode."

            To recap, the phone will erase everything (actually, it will permanently "lose" the encryption key) if the passcode is incorrect for more than 10 guesses. Only Apple can flash the firmware for the phone, and the FBI wants them to flash a special iOS system which will overwrite the limitations on brute-forcing. In that case, according to TrailOfBits,

            "However, there is nothing stopping iOS from querying this hardware key as fast as it can. Without the Secure Enclave to play gatekeeper, this means iOS can guess one passcode every 80ms."

            At least, that's what I think I get from the tech explanations.

            (If it was as simple as jailbreaking the phone, or pulling the guts and hooking them up through a VM, it would have been a done deal a long time ago. The FBI are not THAT stupid.)

            2 0 Reply
            1. Anonymous Coward
              Reply Icon
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Why is this even necessary? "counterfeited in a VM..."

              Having seen the forensic tools used by UK law enforcement for recovering data from flash, SIM and other data storage related to mobile phones, it really can't be as simple as popping a chip off the board and reading it out to a VM, they go to some quite surprising lengths to extract that data.

              If it was possible, it would have been done.

              I have to applaud Apple for this, it seems a truly secure application of technology and of all the phone companies they're the one most able to resist this sort of attack from the government, let's hope it sets some solid precedents in law..

              0 1 Reply
            2. circuitguy
              Reply Icon

              Re: Why is this even necessary? "counterfeited in a VM..."

              first, if u sale hardware , software and services to the US or the DOD, u have no secret code. And u can not mass product ics and complete products without a boat load of special diagnostics tools the average tech people can use safety. the 256 cyp is more noise than a real problem. Seriously, mobile computing vs battery power vs storage access vs response time vs "system overhead" = limited encoding......256 becomes 32 bit....

              but Apple the extra hardware for cyper of the ic..... the above still applies to power/heat/storage..... plus getting the data to cpu....

              0 3 Reply
              1. druck Silver badge
                Reply Icon

                @circuitguy

                What have we said before about arranging words in an order that makes sense?

                1 0 Reply
                1. Wzrd1 Silver badge
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: @circuitguy

                  "What have we said before about arranging words in an order that makes sense?"

                  That's a hell of a thing to say to someone who has dyslexia!

                  Fortunately, that only strikes me when I'm severely fatigued.

                  0 0 Reply
        2. Wzrd1 Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Why is this even necessary?

          "Basically if you take anything out of the device then it no longer has its necessary relationship with other components in the phone. "

          It's called TPM. It can still be faked, with a hell of a lot of effort. As the FBI works routinely on national security matters with the NSA, it's likely a filling in a few minor blanks operation and hence, not worth the effort.

          But, oddly, they're insisting that Apple should write an entirely new operating system that undoes encryption, all by fiat, rather than via a court order.

          1 0 Reply
          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Why is this even necessary?

            "But, oddly, they're insisting that Apple should write an entirely new operating system that undoes encryption, all by fiat, rather than via a court order."

            Will you stop with that BS about writing a new OS? The feds asked and the judge order Apple basically to provide a way to bypas the '10 strikes and you're out' for one specific device.

            Get the court documents and see for yourself.

            1 0 Reply
        3. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Why is this even necessary?

          Its not even like its a new idea, try swapping a dvd drive from an xbox360, unless the correct key that's married to the mainboard is present, it wont work, matters not if the drive is identical.

          yes I know it's easy(ish) to circumvent, my point is that the tech locking parts together by software is old hat.

          0 0 Reply
    2. Geoff Campbell Silver badge
      Reply Icon
      Boffin

      Re: Why is this even necessary?

      iOS uses AES 256 bit encryption, as I understand it. This is essentially uncrackable with current computer architectures. From Wikipedia:

      "Breaking a symmetric 256-bit key by brute force requires 2^128 times more computational power than a 128-bit key. 50 supercomputers that could check a billion billion (10^18) AES keys per second (if such a device could ever be made) would, in theory, require about 3×10^51 years to exhaust the 256-bit key space."

      GJC

      0 0 Reply
      1. Roland6 Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Why is this even necessary?

        iOS uses AES 256 bit encryption, as I understand it. This is essentially uncrackable with current computer architectures.

        Interestingly, this request to Apple, would seem to support the view that AES 256 is (currently) uncrackable. Whilst I accept the intelligence agencies would want to keep this knowledge very close to their chests - in the way the UK kept very quiet about Bletchley Park and what it enabled them to do for years after WWII; I would of expected to see some indication of this capability (if it existed) in the Snowden disclosures.

        1 0 Reply
        1. Wzrd1 Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Why is this even necessary?

          "Interestingly, this request to Apple, would seem to support the view that AES 256 is (currently) uncrackable"

          Well, the NSA uses AES (which level, I cannot discuss) and has directed that the US DoD use it.

          I'd still not call it uncrackable, just not crackable within a length of time that'd be operationally useful.

          If it takes a year to crack encrypted data that is needed this week or this month, it's reasonably secure. Add in layers, as 3DES did, add in further great lengths of time to totally decrypt data needed "today".

          2 0 Reply
          1. sisk
            Reply Icon

            Re: Why is this even necessary?

            "Uncrackable" encryption doesn't exist. Given enough time and computer power they can all be cracked. "Enough time" might be a million years, but it's still there. Plus in another 10 we'll have quantum computing tech reliable enough to render all current encryption useless. Really we need something new, and soon given the progress Google's making with their quantum computer.

            0 0 Reply

  5. This post has been deleted by its author

  6. Number6

    Franklin

    This is one of those cases where the Benjamin Franklin quote is relevant.

    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

    While he was talking about a tax matter, the freedom to encrypt stuff against prying eyes is a liberty worth preserving even if it means the occasional bad guy gets away.

    26 2 Reply
    1. Wzrd1 Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Franklin

      ""Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.""

      Franklin was speaking of raising tax money to raise a militia during the beginnings of the French and Indian war. He later lied to Quakers about money for a fire engine, while instead purchasing cannon. But then, a cannon most certainly is an engine of fire.

      Especially to a freemason trying to help someone, despite their worst efforts to not be helped.

      Things were a bit weird back then, but in the end, the Native Americans lost, the French lost and the militias largely had their butts handed to them by both the French and Native Americans, with the British rescuing those militias repeatedly.

      3 Scots had members at our NCO open mess, where my unit at the time was formerly a militia and now is a US Army National Guard unit.

      1 0 Reply
  7. ckm5
    Big Brother

    Founding fathers rolling over in their graves

    So much for the Republicans upholding the constitution...... The founding fathers would be rolling over in their graves at this.

    On a side note - we need a 'rolling over in grave' icon....

    6 2 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Founding fathers rolling over in their graves

      "So much for the Republicans upholding the constitution[..]"

      I thought the Republicans, particularly the hard line elements, were the ones who want "small government" that doesn't try to interfere with their lives.

      11 0 Reply
      1. MrDamage Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Founding fathers rolling over in their graves

        You are correct. Republicans want smaller government that doesn't interfere with their lives. Bugger everyone else who isn't in the top 1%.

        8 2 Reply
        1. Roland6 Silver badge
          Reply Icon
          Pint

          Re: Founding fathers rolling over in their graves

          Bugger everyone else who isn't in the top 1%.

          Are billionaires that common these days in the USA?

          [I salute you with a pint of good English ale ]

          0 0 Reply
          1. Wzrd1 Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: Founding fathers rolling over in their graves

            "Are billionaires that common these days in the USA?"

            Not all that common, the trillionaires have started crowding them away from the real money.

            1 0 Reply
      2. Wzrd1 Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Founding fathers rolling over in their graves

        "I thought the Republicans, particularly the hard line elements, were the ones who want "small government" that doesn't try to interfere with their lives."

        No, they just want whatever big business campaign contributors want, no regulation on pollution, no quality control, no taxes supporting bridges and highways, no public health, etc.

        In short, no taxes for the wealthy and the populace can sod off.

        1 0 Reply
    2. sisk
      Reply Icon

      Re: Founding fathers rolling over in their graves

      So much for the Republicans upholding the constitution

      Like Democrats they're quite good at ignoring the Constitution when it's inconvenient to their political agendas. Just look at the collective temper tantrum they're having at the thought of Obama getting to appoint a SCUSA justice, despite the fact that the Constitution quite clearly states that it is his job and right as President to do so.

      11 0 Reply
      1. Wzrd1 Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Founding fathers rolling over in their graves

        "Like Democrats they're quite good at ignoring the Constitution when it's inconvenient to their political agendas."

        Indeed, what party created the Patriot Act, which undermined the greater part of the US Constitution?

        Here is a small Cliff Notes version of US politics today, Citizens United means wealthy benefactors get to pay as much as they want to to get the candidates that they want in power, as money is free speech and that leaves the populace speechless.

        1 0 Reply
  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's a 4 to 6 digit passcode, why don't I save everyone the trouble, it's 911911.

    Why don't they just wait until a new vuln is spotted and use that? They are obviously in no rush as they got the phones back in December.

    Also, I'm pretty sure the NSA can get into it, not being funny but if they capture a spy with an iPhone do they just go ok well it's encrypted and leave it at that? Unlikely.

    Finally if they have access to the iCloud account can they not remote install apps? (I don't know as I have never used them and don't know if this would work) Remote install an app that disables the lock or automatically uploads all the data from the device.

    0 2 Reply
    1. Tim99 Silver badge
      Reply Icon
      Coat

      $5 wrench

      Also, I'm pretty sure the NSA can get into it, not being funny but if they capture a spy with an iPhone do they just go ok well it's encrypted and leave it at that? Unlikely.

      Obligatory xkcd link

      6 0 Reply
      1. Old Handle
        Reply Icon

        Re: $5 wrench

        Unfortunately, the police themselves made the person who knew the PIN well and truly wrench-proof.

        5 0 Reply
        1. MrDamage Silver badge
          Reply Icon
          Coat

          Re: $5 wrench

          The suspect may be wrench proof, but given how the FBI and other TLA's rely on pseudosciences such as polygraphs, there is no reason why they cannot subpoena John Edward to make contact with the suspect to obtain the passcode that way.

          4 0 Reply
    2. Wzrd1 Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      "Finally if they have access to the iCloud account can they not remote install apps? "

      Why bother with iCloud when the tower can be had for far less effort? Own the tower, own the phone.

      1 0 Reply
  9. Lysenko

    What no-one seems to have explained yet is exactly what power the court is invoking to force a private company to do actual "work". This is a totally different proposition from requiring that something be handed over or disclosed as part of a search. Bizarre as it seems I'm pretty sure you could appeal this on anti-slavery statutes (UK Law) if nothing else.

    15 2 Reply
    1. Gnosis_Carmot
      Reply Icon

      Apple could short it out

      The government can, according to some under a 17-something or another law, compel Apple to do this.

      Assume for a moment that is true.

      Imagine it playing out....

      Apple : "We'll do it..."

      FBI : "Hand it over"

      Apple : "....for US $10Trillion. Payment in advance. Oh, and it'll be years before we complete the research needed."

      6 0 Reply

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