Nice one. Now do it for Apple Lightning cords/cables/leads/adapters. I don't know how many cords longer than 6 feet I've bought that don't charge the device (they lack the little authentication chip, apparently).
Google engineer names and shames dodgy USB Type-C cable makers
A Google engineer says some discount USB Type-C converter cables are substandard and could cause damage by drawing too much juice. One of the big advantages of the USB Type-C design is never again having to guess which way up the plug has to be to fit in its hole; the other advantage is power transmission. A Type-C 1.1 laptop …
COMMENTS
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Friday 6th November 2015 07:28 GMT Anonymous Coward
Now do it for Apple Lightning cords/cables/leads/adapters. I don't know how many cords longer than 6 feet I've bought that don't charge the device (they lack the little authentication chip, apparently).
This guy just validated why that may be, after all, not such a bad idea. If you pull 2.1A through a wire that cannot support it you end up with a fire hazard, so at 3A even more so.
I've read some reviews of cheapo power supplies a while back, and the shortcuts they take in those devices are plain scary. Of course, they have fake approval logos on them, but you're looking at something that could kill. I stands to reason that those people would not worry about the right cables either..
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Friday 6th November 2015 09:40 GMT Triggerfish
There is somewhere on the web a rather interesting comparison from and electrical engineer between a apple power adaptor and a generic chinese ebay one, he pulls it apart and goes over the design choices made, component choices etc and what makes it different, there is a lot of difference in quality.
Edit found it.
http://www.righto.com/2014/05/a-look-inside-ipad-chargers-pricey.html
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Saturday 7th November 2015 22:29 GMT John Brown (no body)
From the quoted link
"Since the chip only has four pins, I expected it to be a trivial Ringing Choke Converter (RCC) circuit with just a couple transistors inside the chip - but I cracked it open with Vise-Grips and it turns out to be a fairly complex chip. I took a picture through a microscope of the IC die, which is about 1 mm across."
Now THAT'S a tear down!
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Friday 6th November 2015 13:52 GMT ChrisC
Even worse than the ones with fake approvals are the ones where the manufacturer has presented a fully populated "gold-standard" unit for testing in order to gain a genuine approval mark/number for the product, and then proceeds to strip out all the protection components for the units actually manufactured/shipped. Doing a search on the approvals body website will then appear to show the unit meets the required standards, giving even more of a false sense of security than if they'd just skipped the testing entirely and slapped a completely made up approval number (or copied one off a different product - 'ere Mike, the UL site seems to think this charger is actually a microwave oven, what's up with that?) on the unit.
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Friday 27th November 2015 19:01 GMT Tom 13
Re: Check for the MFi compliance logo
What? You think somebody making a dodgy cable won't forge a compliance logo?
There's an actual value to knowing your sales guy isn't dodgy and isn't buy kit from dodgy oem suppliers. The problem is first finding one, and after that making sure your own PHB doesn't ditch him.
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Friday 6th November 2015 16:33 GMT Anonymous Coward
Apple Lightning cords/cables
Like Apple are ever going to allow anyone to publish a report on dodgy Lightning connectors. Even the Apple store rating say they are total pants
And fanbois, before you childishly down vote me for raining on your parade go and take a look at
http://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD818AM/A/lightning-to-usb-cable?fnode=97
Of course the reviews they show on the page are the hand full of people who think they're great rather than the massive majority that complain how total shit they are.
Still the cheap Chinese knock off you can buy easily now seem to be much better, last much longer and don't cost $19 each.
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Friday 6th November 2015 21:51 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Apple Lightning cords/cables
Leave it to Apple haters to take an article about USB-C and use it to talk smack about Apple, and totally ignore the fact that Apple having the MFi logo for Lightning accessories (which they see as Apple trying to "force" you to pay inflated prices for cables) weeds out these sort of things.
Apple can and will sue over counterfeit Lightning products that don't meet their standards, because the 5 cent chip that authenticates it to the iPhone has to be counterfeit in a non-approved device. In the USB-C world there's nothing anyone can do beyond what Google is doing here by simply naming and shaming. It's nice that they're trying, but neither they nor the USB Forum can do anything to stop the sale of these dangerously made cables.
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Saturday 7th November 2015 16:47 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Apple Lightning cords/cables
Actually I never used to be an Apple hater till all this shit with Lightning cables. What sort of marketing genius thought that producing cabled at nearly $20 each would endear you to your customers. But I could cope with that if they actually worked. The thing about Apple used to be "it just works" well you can forgive a lot when thing do. The problem I have with Lightning cables is they'd be more reliable if they were made of cheese. In the hands of my son and many of his friends they last less than 3 months on average whereas USB leads never seem to need replacing.
Apple can and will sue over counterfeit Lightning products that don't meet their standards
Don't meet their standards! You mean don't die on average every 3 months. The cheap knock off ones you buy on line are now so much better than the official ones and they are now more reasonably priced. They still haven't quite reached the point with traditional micro USB leads where you look to see how many you can buy for less than $5 (I think my best buy was 8 for $5 all of which still work fine), but the $5 ones work better than the official ones.
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Friday 27th November 2015 19:04 GMT Tom 13
Re: weeds out these sort of things.
Actually it doesn't. Bought one a couple months ago from
BestWorst Buy. It didn't work, they wouldn't give me my money back because I didn't get it out of the box soon enough. Yes, it was a genuine product with the label and cost appropriately. Ironically the "dodgy" knock off I got from the $5 place works just fine.
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Friday 6th November 2015 11:31 GMT Stuart 22
Re: No more 99p shop cables for me
This whole thing is incredibly short sighted of Google not shipping a USB-A cable in the 5X box (unlike the 6P). At this early stage of USB-C deployment most of us will have to buy that cable to connect to a computer or if we need to share chargers and powerpacks.
The Google one costs £10.99. The Chinese do adaptors for 96p delivered on eBay. Hard choice. I bottled and got a CPC-Farnell cable for £2.68. The cable is re-assuringly thick so I hope they haven't skimped on the resistor. I'm too mean/poor to buy a Pixel so I can't be sure. But really Google adding the cable to the BoM would have been peanuts especially on phones not competing in the budget market. Even if they had raised the price a little both Google and the consumer would have been mostly better off.
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Friday 6th November 2015 16:21 GMT DropBear
Re: No more 99p shop cables for me
"The cable is re-assuringly thick"
If it's really cheap and you really give a #### buy two and section one somewhere. Then potentially marvel at the 0.01mm thick copper ($$$$$) wires inside the 5mm thick plastic ($0.001) - at least, if car jumper cables are anything to go by considering it's rare to gaze upon the thickness of the actual wire underneath the lavishly thick rubber without getting the heebeejeebees with most of them...
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Friday 6th November 2015 00:45 GMT Kevin McMurtrie
Er....
Old USB allows up to 5A for chargers. With such a low voltage used, it's difficult for there to be more than 2.5 W of losses before the power consumer no longer has enough voltage to function. 2.5 W lost across the length of a wimpy cable won't generate much heat. 0.5 W lost in a heavy cable with 2 W lost at a spot of fraying sill won't generate much heat due to good thermal conduction.
I could be reading the spec wrong, but it doesn't look like the resistor needs to be there except to possibly improve efficiency. USB-C high voltage mode needs a data handshake.
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Friday 6th November 2015 03:31 GMT david 12
Re: Er....
USB is 100mA, (0.5W) negotiable up to 500mA (2.5W). Apple negotiated that limit up (by ignoring it), to provide 1.8A (9W): this was why you could only do rapid charging using an Authentic Apple Charger. The new standard was called a "USB Charging Port", and it was added to USB 2. That is, it was not an original part of USB 2.0
The USB 3 specifiction is negotiable up to 900mA (4.5W), and the charging port specification is 1.5A up to a total of 5A for multiple devices.
I don't know why a USB 2 charging port is 1.8A and a USB 3 charging port is 1.5A, but I'm guessing it's because I've misread/missunderstood something.
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Friday 6th November 2015 06:47 GMT Charles 9
Re: Er....
I don't know why a USB 2 charging port is 1.8A and a USB 3 charging port is 1.5A, but I'm guessing it's because I've misread/missunderstood something.
Because USB Charging over the traditional cable was always limited by the spec to 1.5A. It's just that many devices push the envelope towards 2A. Type-C cables BTW are allowed to go up to 3A by spec.
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Friday 6th November 2015 14:40 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Er....
"I don't know why a USB 2 charging port is 1.8A and a USB 3 charging port is 1.5A, but I'm guessing it's because I've misread/missunderstood something."
IIRC, the USB 3.1 spec was more complicated than that. (off to the Google machine...) I can't find my copy of the USB spec right now, but according to Wikipedia the spec is 2.0 A at 5V, and up to 5A at 20V.
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Friday 6th November 2015 04:17 GMT Kevin McMurtrie
Re: Er....
There's a specification for dumb chargers where the data lines are shorted together and current is negotiated by monitoring voltage droop. Despite some warnings that exceeding 1 amp may not be a good idea, many chargers provide 4 to 5 amps. USB 1 and 2 data devices are limited to ~1 amp because you don't want the power lines to have less voltage than the data lines.
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Friday 6th November 2015 08:48 GMT John Tserkezis
Re: Er....
"That's not how I remember it. Maybe you meant 5W ?"
Less than that. 500mA max, and that's with the devices "asking nicely" (there's some USB negotiation before it'll do that.
1A is however, routine, if not out of spec, and I've seen them squeeze 2A out of it too. Standards are treated like suggestions, if it doesn't fit your needs - just ignore the documents and do what you want.
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Friday 6th November 2015 19:51 GMT Crazy Operations Guy
Re: If I had a nickel
Had a $1000 logic analyzer that did that (well, missing pull-down resistors)... You get all sorts of results when the other end is left floating (the lead was the perfect length to adsorb harmonic frequencies off the AM radio tower nearby and generated enough noise that the analyzer thought it to be the 1.25V signals we were working with...)
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Friday 6th November 2015 01:40 GMT Phil O'Sophical
a Type-C gadget could attempt to draw 3A from a USB 2.0 host or charger
A USB 2.0 device could attempt to draw 3A as well, it's up to the charger to limit the current drawn to whatever it can safely supply, either by a fuse or something more sophisticated. The real problem here is the device manufacturers who just connect the USB power pins to the raw 5v and assume that the conected device will 'play nice'.
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Friday 6th November 2015 04:45 GMT Scoular
Depend on a cable?
Surely in a sane world the charger would be self protecting including from a dead short, it is quite possible to do.
Similarly at the other end the device should limit the current drawn to whatever limit the designer intended and that is also possible.
Why would anyone in the right mind depend on a cable from an unknown supplier to protect their expensive kit. The pullup resistor as part of a signaling scheme? Why not have that in the device so you know it is there.
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Friday 6th November 2015 07:32 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Depend on a cable?
Surely in a sane world the charger would be self protecting including from a dead short, it is quite possible to do.
That is only ever going to happen if the components to do so would be cheaper than the parts involved in NOT doing it. That industry goes for large volume, and every cent saved counts. Your life doesn't.
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Friday 6th November 2015 08:12 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: every cent saved counts
That argument is just as effective for cables, except the cable manufacturers often don't have a brand to protect.
The op is right, expecting the cable to be anything other than a basic piece of wire with the right connectors is stupid. Make the £300 device do the job. You can absorb the cost at the device end more easily than with the cable.
Seriously, engineers came up with this design? They're allowed to blindly trust their input? It'll end in tears....
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Friday 6th November 2015 14:54 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: every cent saved counts
The problem is that the power delivery spec needs to be backwards compatible with existing USB cables. In order to allow for fancy stuff like charging at 100W, there needed to be some way of having the cable indicate its capability. How else do you let your iWhatever and your beefy charging station determine that they can charge at the "fast" rate? Keep in mind, you also need to make sure a port can supply OR consume power.
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Friday 6th November 2015 11:05 GMT Dave Horn
Re: Depend on a cable?
Why would anyone in the right mind depend on a cable from an unknown supplier to protect their expensive kit.
I suspect that would be because the new Nexus series of phones only come with a USB type C cable. Good luck copying anything to/from your phone unless you're willing to sit and wait while it goes over WiFi.
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Friday 6th November 2015 16:46 GMT DropBear
Re: Depend on a cable?
"Why would anyone in the right mind depend on a cable from an unknown supplier to protect their expensive kit."
So what should happen when your exquisitely crafted $500 3A-capable power brick and equally exquisitely crafted $500 3A-guzzling USB device get hooked together with the first USB cable you can get your hands on, possibly originally sold with a self- and / or micro-powered gadget slurping not even 100mA, with its power leads sized accordingly...? Attach device -> "I need moar power!" -> "Roger, I'm fine with that!" -> "Bleurghhargfraggh... braaaaains..."
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Friday 6th November 2015 04:53 GMT Christian Berger
So... the news is USB doesn't work in real life...
... I always thought we'd knew this since the Microsoft demo which crashed their Windows 98.
Seriously, USB has so many flaws. For example the electrical side is not properly symmetrical. There is no galvanic separation which makes ground loops a problem. The software side is highly complex and uses 16 bit Unicode as the text encoding, probably the last place left doing so.