back to article French woman gets €800 a month for electromagnetic-field 'disability'

Despite dispute over the very existence of the syndrome, it has emerged that a French court has recognised a 39-year-old woman’s disability claim for “hypersensitivity to electromagnetic waves”. In the first case of its kind in France, the Toulouse court awarded Martine Richard €800 ($900) a month for three years - according …

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  1. hplasm
    Stop

    Well-

    If they feel they must award money for this, then there should be a condition; it must be spent on psychiatric treatment.

    1. goldcd

      It must be spent

      on psychiatric treatment, shown to work.

      1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: It must be spent

        A suitably tuned aerial would presumably do the trick. One can reasonably say that it absorbs radiation at the offending frequencies from the environment (and sinks the energy into a resistor). If we are talking about the frequencies used by modern gizmos, the "EM sponge" would be fairly small and therefore wearable.

        Psychiatric treatment would consist of demonstrating said equipment in a proper lab and proving that it actually works. Then you sit back and let the placebo effect work its magic.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Devil

          Re: It must be spent

          the "EM sponge"

          Or as they are otherwise known, lawyers.

        2. Developer Dude

          Re: It must be spent

          I used to work at a Biotech corp. that had an onsite nurse who believed in this crap.

          Knowing I had a EE degree she gave me an advertisement for a device and asked my advice about it.

          Without going into the mumbo jumbo of the advertisement, it basically purported to convert "disordered chaotic" EM emissions into "ordered" EM emissions, thereby lessening their "harmful effects". It included a drawing showing the before and after of the EM emissions.

          My response to her was that ignoring the fact that EM emissions from simple electronic gear like computers, cell phones and such were not harmful - *IF* they were harmful, making them "ordered" would, if anything, quite possibly make them more harmful, not less. In addition, I know of no electronic circuitry that could accomplish such "ordering".

          She probably went and bought the device anyway - she also believed in black and white magic.

    2. SuccessCase

      Re: Well-

      She had Better Call Saul

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Well-

      In the US she could have simply went with the tried and true bad back (which actually does suck bad if you have one but hard to prove) and not made world wide headlines.

  2. damingo
    FAIL

    Poor choice of words?

    “We can no longer pretend it is not a real psychiatric condition.”

    "Psychiatric Condition" - A mental disorder, also called a mental illness, psychological disorder or psychiatric disorder, is mental or behavioral pattern that causes either suffering or a poor ability to function in ordinary life.

    So you're admitting that its all in her head and not a physical condition? If I say that the aliens are talking to me in my head can I have £££?

    Mines the one with the tin foil hat in the pocket.

    1. Antonymous Coward
      Holmes

      Re: Poor choice of words?

      Correct choice of words. Not meaning to get in the way of a good frog bashing... but... Other phobias, anxiety disorders, etc are all recognised and treated appropriately so I don't see any reason why "EMSS" should be excluded from that. Something being intangible or irrational really isn't grounds to deny study or treatment.

      1. james.aka.damingo
        Stop

        Re: Poor choice of words?

        I wasn't saying that a phobia/etc shouldn't be recognized, there are plenty that deserve recompense (PTSD in veterans etc). More that this is not caused by anything (unless you wish to say that EM waves caused her to have a mental condition, in which case this is fine!) external so the compensation seems somewhat odd.

        1. Pookietoo

          Re: this is not caused by anything

          Psychosomatic symptoms can be just as "real" as strictly physical ones. Some psychiatric illness is characterised by "magical thinking". This "électrosensibilité" could be indicative of something like schizo-affective disorder.

      2. Doctor_Wibble

        Re: Poor choice of words?

        It does sound a lot like a phobia - the sort of thing where logic is somewhat less rigorous and so the remarks about 'oh but sunlight is EM too' entirely miss the point as well as missing the slight difference between what you can see and what you need a radio for. Many commuters are well aware of the brief moment of silence just south of Horsham.

        But are people 'sensing' EM or 'feeling' the high-frequency sounds (try a frequency generator, top end is more like feel than hear) from the crap electronic components? This might be a slightly more revealing angle than the prove/disprove 'studies' done by both 'EM extremes'.

        And TBH given the subject is a person with a mental problem of some kind I don't think the piss-taking in the Ed's Bootnote was at all appropriate, such things are best left to the commentards.

        1. MJI Silver badge

          Re: Poor choice of words?

          I think you may be right about the noises.

          The only places I can get a complete undisturbed nights sleep is in the middle of nowhere, traffic noise is horrible, but wind in trees - yawn, zzzzzzzzzzz.

          I seem to be managing on 6 or so hours after disturbances.

          Perhaps I need to see the doctor and get a prescription for a holiday in Cornwall.

        2. Unicornpiss
          Meh

          Re: Poor choice of words?

          While I think that this is a psychiatric condition, and that EM fields are NOT affecting her, you can't realistically use the argument that "sunlight is EM too", though it certainly is. I can bask in the sunlight and slowly get a tan, or sit under a dedicated UV lamp and get burnt to a crisp. I can listen to my radio all day, even stand somewhat near a 50KW transmitter tower (though arguably maybe not healthy in the long term), or I can defeat the safety interlocks on my microwave oven and cause myself serious harm.

          1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

            Re: Poor choice of words?

            I can bask in the sunlight and slowly get a tan, or sit under a dedicated UV lamp and get burnt to a crisp.

            Actually, that is an interesting example as light hypersensitivity is a well known condition which in the worst cases can make your life so miserable that you would rather commit suicide than continue:

            http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2001/jul/12/healthandwellbeing.health

          2. Paul 195

            Re: Poor choice of words?

            Thank you for making such a sensible comment. Too many people on the El Reg forums get carried away with a tiny bit of knowledge. The fact that everything from ultra-low long wave to ultra-violet and beyond is an EM wave patently does not mean that they all have the same effects.

      3. Kubla Cant

        Re: Poor choice of words?

        Something being intangible or irrational really isn't grounds to deny study or treatment.

        But it might be grounds to deny a handout of €800 a month.

        1. Kubla Cant

          Re: Poor choice of words?

          Thinking about it, it all depends whether the €800 a month is supposed to fund treatments that will enable the sufferer to live a normal lifestyle, or whether it's a subsidy for her off-grid lifestyle in the Pyrenees. In the first case, it's a provision of treatment; in the second, it's participating in a neurotic fantasy.

          There's a tricky ethical issue here. Supposing that subsidising the off-grid lifestyle is cheaper than treating the neurosis, and given that it's the course of action the patient would prefer, is it acceptable to withhold treatment from somebody who is ill?

      4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Poor choice of words?

        "Something being intangible or irrational really isn't grounds to deny study or treatment."

        But what about legal liability? Surely that should rest with those who implanted such an irrational idea in her head.

    2. Richard 26

      Re: Poor choice of words?

      “We can no longer pretend it is not a real psychiatric condition.”

      My French is pretty rusty but I'm with Google translate which gives: " We can no longer say that it is a psychiatric illness." for "On ne pourra plus dire que c'est une maladie psychiatrique"

      1. Antonymous Coward
        Facepalm

        Re: Poor choice of words?

        Oh!

        Good grief!

        Bash away..

      2. Warm Braw

        Re: Poor choice of words?

        Indeed. And the man rejoicing over the alleged vindication of his "Robin des toits" campaign is apparently called "Mr Ashtray". Sounds like a wasted opportunity for nominative determinism.

      3. diodesign (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

        Re: Re: Poor choice of words?

        Fixed. Can you please please please email us when you spot something wrong with a story? We rarely have time to read all the comments, and I hate seeing errors lingering on the site for 10 hours.

        C.

        1. Ben Tasker
          Joke

          Re: Poor choice of words?

          I hate seeing errors lingering on the site for 10 hours.

          Simple solution: don't write bugs into the article...

    3. Fraggle850

      @damingo Re: Poor choice of words?

      "If I say that the aliens are talking to me in my head can I have £££?"

      If you do actually have alien voices in your head then yes, you can have money (probably even in tory-run GB). You can also have the attention of the NHS and a long-term course of heavy meds for paranoid schizophrenia.

      Evidence suggests that electro-sensitive types are likely suffering from a psychiatric condition and psychiatric conditions can be debilitating. As long as the French aren't saying that the condition is anything other than psychological then I fail to see the problem with giving some form of support. The danger is that plonkers will use this as justification that the condition is physical rather than mental, which the alternative translation provided by Richard 26 further down the comments suggests might be the case here.

    4. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: Poor choice of words?

      Indeed.

      As there is also a _REAL_ condition too. Long term exposure to high frequency high power electromagnetic field can have some very nasty effects.

      For example, old time (pre-health and safety era) radar operators (both military and civilian) have way above average rate of heart and arthritic conditions. That, however, is a completely different ball game - we are talking exposure to fields which are orders of magnitude more than Joe Average user would encounter in his average ordinary life.

      1. Charles Manning

        Of course radar danger was real

        Sitting next to unshielded radar is basically the same as sitting in a microwave oven. Radar operators would use the devices to warm their food. Smash out the glass on a microwave an put your hand inside and bits are going to get cooked.

        As you say, that've a few orders of magnitude higher than Wifi.

        But Mlle Batshit clearly does not understand EM at all. She's gone reclusive and is living off grid in the mountains. EM radiation is worse high up.

        1. Doctor_Wibble

          Re: Of course radar danger was real

          > EM radiation is worse high up.

          And if there's anything like granite kicking about in them thar hills then she also gets a double-bonus radiation score! And a grant for lead-lined undies...

      2. Paul 195

        Re: Poor choice of words?

        And radar, essentially microwaves, known to be hazardous. Electric cables running at 50 Hz, not microwaves. Not even long-wave radio.

  3. Haku

    There's a special place for people like that...

    It's called a Faraday Cage.

    Or she could move to the United States National Radio Quiet Zone.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: There's a special place for people like that...

      The quiet zone is OK as long as its only man-made fields that are the cause.

      Its a great place to get a natural electromagnetic tan though...

      1. Sir Runcible Spoon

        Re: There's a special place for people like that...

        my wife an I used to live in an old thatched cottage that was rebuilt with wire-mesh and concrete between the beams - made a really good Faraday cage (for certain frequencies).

        For example, I couldn't get a mobile signal in the house, nor a wi-fi signal outside the house (from the wi-fi router in the house). Wi-fi was also tricky inside the house to be honest due to the effin great double inglenook fireplace smack in the middle of the house, but hey ho.

        However, this didn't stop my wife from registering EM waves from the nearby village transformer which did seriously affect her sleep - she says she could hear it, and also confirmed that the noise was absent during the odd power cut we suffered whilst living there.

        Not quite sure how to prove it, but since leaving that house it hasn't been an issue, so if it was purely a psychological condition I would have thought it would have continued (my wife was unaware of the location of the transformer initially and just complained about a high pitched oscillating noise, like a sine wave, so I don't believe it was psychosomatic).

        1. MJI Silver badge

          Re: There's a special place for people like that...

          Could this be the real issue, high frequency noise, not the RF?

        2. Michael Strorm Silver badge

          Re: There's a special place for people like that...

          @Sir Runcible Spoon; Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but why would you expect the "Faraday cage" in your house to affect that? If your wife was talking about "hearing" noise generated by the transformer (#), I'm assuming she was sensing high frequency *sound* waves, not electromagnetic ones, which are something completely different.

          (#) I'm quite prepared to believe this as many people can pick up very high-pitched noises, generally when they're younger (and their hearing isn't *****d). I used to be able to tell when a CRT TV in the room was on from the faint and very high pitched noise they made. Similarly, extremely low frequency sounds can have an effect on people. Both are possible from electrical or mechanical equipment.

        3. nsld

          Re: There's a special place for people like that...

          Not wanting to insult your wife but the old bat may just have the hearing of one!

          Rather than it being EM it could be very high frequency noise she hears or possibly a short term bout of tinnitus.

          1. Sir Runcible Spoon

            Re: There's a special place for people like that...

            Whilst I agree that it's more likely high pitch noise rather than EM, the problem with that is that my wife detected it as a very low frequency 'feeling' rather than just a noise. (Ear filters made no difference).

            I've no idea what it really was to be honest, but the effects were real.

            1. stephanh

              Re: There's a special place for people like that...

              Perhaps the wiring in the house was functioning as a low-frequency radio receiver. Low-frequency sounds would be more felt than heard. Earplugs would not be effective in such a case.

            2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: There's a special place for people like that...

              "my wife detected it as a very low frequency"

              That makes more sense than high frequency given that the source is presumed to be a mains transformer. Maybe it had a resonance at 50/n Hz for some integer value of n.

            3. Anomalous Cowturd
              Boffin

              Re: There's a special place for people like that...

              Dynamo hum?

              ;o)

        4. CrazyCanuck

          Re: There's a special place for people like that...

          it's real, it's not the field per se however it's the frequency, it can disrupt you circadian rhythm. Just the other day I had to leave the office because about 10 to 15 minute later I was having real bad chest pain. I told my family member i was leaving. I started feeling better as I got further away from it.

          I saw a cell phone tower being install and within a week I was in more pain than before. For me wifi is less painful and something i can deal with. However with cell phones it is 10 times worse. i can't even go out to a restaurant because most people carry cell phones.

          The reason how I find out was when i was visiting my parents who live out in the country side. At that time they didn't have a cell phone or wireless tower.

          Water fasting has helped me somewhat from the pain. I fast 24 hours once or twice a week, eat stop eat style. Nothing else seems to help. I know what your wife is going through and I feel her.

          1. Martin Summers Silver badge

            Re: There's a special place for people like that...

            "I know what your wife is going through and I feel her"

            Somehow I don't think he's going to be very happy about that!

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    KU the pedants

    I'm not sure the transmissions from satellites can really be compared to local RF sources, inverse square law and all that.

    We must at some level be affected by electrical impulses or we'd be dead. RF itself is not necessarily bad as many ancient radio ham can attest but the pulsed combinations and RF bath we live in just might.

    The human body can be quite a good antenna at some frequencies, who is to know what affect the combined RF soup and local topology has on any particular spot and over a long time?

    (Note. Some strange affects can be had mixing superhigh frequencies - see "john hutchison".)

    1. Mage Silver badge
      Alien

      Re: KU the pedants

      Ku band DTH are maybe the most powerful satellites. Twice a year for a few minutes the reception is really poor as it's not much more than the RF radiation from the sun. It needs an unbelievably sensitive receiver and a big dish to collect enough RF.

      Even 100W, with 22,500 miles of inverse square law ... Point the dish at a wall and you get more signal due to thermal induced microwave radiation!

    2. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Re: inverse square law and all that

      I get my TV from satellite transmission. If it can reliably get a signal to my satellite dish, then I do believe that my body is also "receiving" the signal.

      I have no idea about the power of the satellite TV signal compared to that of my mobile phone or a WiFi transmitter, and I am quite ready to believe that the local sources are more powerful. However, I do seem to recall that only microwave ovens work at a frequency that can actually affect living matter; phone, satellite and radio pass through us and do not affect us.

      Her condition is not physical, it is mental - but that doesn't mean she is not entitled to treatment, if there is any.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: inverse square law and all that

        but that doesn't mean she is not entitled to treatment, if there is any.

        These sort of beliefs seem to be very deep seated. At the expense of coming across as unsympathetic, there's a clinic in Switzerland that could help?

        Or aversion therapy, by building a one seater microwave next to a mobile mast within the precision approach radar beam of a major airport?

        But the Frenchies have banned the obvious solution, of a tin foil burqa, which would have served as a personal Faraday cage.

      2. Cynic_999

        Re: inverse square law and all that

        "

        However, I do seem to recall that only microwave ovens work at a frequency that can actually affect living matter; phone, satellite and radio pass through us and do not affect us.

        "

        I'm afraid you recollect incorrectly. The human body will block (i.e. absorb) EM over a wide range of frequencies that encompass cellphone, WiFi and satellite broadcasts. Walk in front of a satellite TV dish and the signal will be lost, for example. If the body is absorbing the energy, then that energy is being dissipated inside the body and will cause changes. Whether the changes are sufficient and of a nature to cause any damage or symptoms depends on the field strength as well as the frequency. I would not want to stand next to a WiFi router or hold a cellphone to my ear if they were running the same transmit power as my 800W microwave oven!

        1. stephanh

          Re: inverse square law and all that

          The EM radiation of a cellphone is absorbed by the skin and does not penetrate further into the body. The skin is (slightly) heated, which appears[1] to be completely harmless, at least at the levels emitted by your iphone. Swallowing your phone is thus not recommended as it will lead to bad reception. Also make sure you are not holding it wrong.

          [1] As demonstrated by countless studies, which you may want to believe where all funded by the big conspiracy for corrupting our precious bodily fluids.

      3. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: inverse square law and all that

        "I get my TV from satellite transmission. If it can reliably get a signal to my satellite dish, then I do believe that my body is also "receiving" the signal."

        True, but the only reason your satellite dish can pull the signal out of the noise is by restricting itself to an impressively narrow band of the spectrum. It is "unlikely" that any part of your body is as well tuned to any frequency as the satellite dish. For any reasonable width of spectrum there's probably much more EM noise coming from the Sun than the satellite.

    3. Small Furry Animal
      Stop

      Re: KU the pedants

      '(Note. Some strange affects can be had mixing superhigh frequencies - see "john hutchison".)'

      I call bullshit. To quote Marc Millis: "The 'Hutchison Effect' has been claimed for years, without any independent verification — ever. In fact, its originator can't even replicate it on demand."

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: KU the pedants

        I'm not convinced about Hutchison but like a lot of things I like to consider possibilities I welcome the reasoned arguments and proof either way.

        Thanks for your well thought out "bullshit" response.

        Just in case anyone got confused by my straenglish I believe the satellite power received at the surface to be low, hense the need for high gain dish antennas.

        RF sources of even 100mw a few meters away would be more affective, just not convinced they would cause the sort of affect this lady experiences.

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