Apple's Tim Cook and Salesforce's Marc Benioff DECLARE WAR on anti-gay Indiana

Re: It's never black or white.

The state hasn't banned gay people, they've allowed private business to decide who they do business with. This is more freedom, not less, and less government, not more. This leaves business to operate as they see fit, and to succeed or fail depending on the will of the people who transact with them. That's more democratic than having a government tell us what we can and can't do, and far more democratic than having a CEO tell a government what they can and can't tell people to do. Are you sure it's a good thing when CEOs use their influence over government, rather than over the public?

Re: It's never black or white.

"Is Apple's influence such a good thing when thinking about corporate tax laws, the 100+ billion they're hiding in tax heavens?"

It's interesting how erroneous memes start with loose thinking. Apple are frequently cited in articles on tax avoidance (perfectly legal) these days, so it seems reasonable to make the sweeping statement they are hiding 100+ billions in tax havens. Except they aren't. They are keeping their money in the jurisdictions where they earned it and not moving it to the U.S. because when you move money doing so attracts tax. When no tax is due, there's no point in moving money back to the U.S. or any other place in the world, until you need it there for a reason. Otherwise if you later need to move your money elsewhere in the world you will have needlessly paid tax where it simply wasn't owed in the first place.

Indeed Tim Cook is on record as stating Apple do not use financial instruments for side-ways effects on tax (do not use instruments for effects other than their intended purpose - so no loans from one Apple subsidiary company to another to reduce profit margins in higher tax jurisdictions ) and they do not move money to to jurisdictions it isn't needed other than for the purpose of tax reduction. Those are actually pretty strong statements and deserve to be acknowledged. Especially when certain competitors who are trying to claim the moral high ground and do make use of financial instruments purely for their sideways tax effects and do move money to tax havens when it is not required there to cover any genuine operational costs. Google I'm looking at you.

Re: It's never black or white.

Suppose you're a photographer and you turn down a gay couple because you're already booked for the given weekend or you decided in advance to take that weekend off.

Suppose you turn them down because the other couple pays more, or you decide to cancel the vacation because a friend comes by asking for that specific date.

They sue you for discrimination.

You lose the lawsuit because that's how things roll.

--

Think about it. If you *can* win that case, then businesses have all the right to discriminate against anyone they don't want to serve. It's just that they need to provide a different reason for refusing business.

However, if you can only lose that case, then gay couples can walk to any photographer and demand pictures being taken for one dollar (or at cost), and if you refuse, they'll sue you to bankruptcy. And don't even think about turning up at their wedding and taking lousy pictures. They'll sue you for that, too.

Re: It's never black or white.

Really? That's what business is for or should even remotely be involved in social issues? Because Halliburton was interested in securing freedom by supporting our troops for our country and our allies but I bet you were a nut job over that weren't you...

Liberalism is a mental disorder!

Re: Torn

Peopl with no ethics throw money at the democratic process, like big polluters, tobacco, etc. So why not someone promoting rights?

Re: Torn

But they're private businesses, exercising their freedom to discriminate against State governments belonging to a weird cult.

Re: Torn

You raise an interesting point. If next week, a law is passed to tell these two CEO's that they must do "something" that goes against their grain, such as (and I'll be off the wall) "pay the employees more equitably", do you think they would stick up for this? Right now, it's in their interest to be socially responsible, maybe next week... not so.

Re: Indiana, WTF?

The side effect of this is that there is a booming trade in stickers saying 'We serve Everyone' being sold to businesses.

Then those that aren't are going to start to suffer with reduced business.

Do they deserve it?

The words

you reap what you sow

Seems to be quite apt IMHO having had a few incidents in the US over the 40years I've been going there. Common Sense is almost totally absent in a large part of the US especially (IMHO) amongst those who watch Fox News.

Re: Indiana, WTF?

My exact thought.

Moral issues aside this creates a contradiction between contract, company code (something every large company has) and local law. This automatically raises a red flag for a large company in terms of operating there (as I said - this if we put the moral issues aside and look purely at the liability aspect).

Large companies have provisions to deal with this in on a country basis and they are quite expensive to maintain. If they have to do the same on a per-state basis they will scream murder. And in this case they did.

Re: Indiana, WTF?

As I understand it, they didn't pass a law that explicitly says that discrimination is legal. The law they passed was phrased as a means of allowing shop owners and employers to protect their religious beliefs. The enablement of discrimination is a loophole result (which may or may not have been the original intention of those that riased the bill) by not forcing them to serve people who's belief/lifestyle-choise/way-they-were-born offends the religious sensibility of the store owner.

Indiana is a very 'bible-belt' kind of state though. Pro-religion and pro-replublican, for the most part.

Re: Indiana, WTF?

The law allows private businesses to pick and choose their customers without the risk of being sued by publicity hungry political groups. essentially this is already the law in the UK

Should a synagogue be allowed to refuse to rent a room for a neo-nazi meeting?

Can a church hall turn down a booking from satanists?

Can a French restaurant turn away a UKIP member

Re: Indiana, WTF?

>>>

Do they honestly think a law like this could do anything but harm, could do anything but cause further divisions and unrest? Who actually benefits from this?

<<<

There is an odd subset of politicians (mainly Right Wing) who seem to think that Bad Things can simply be legislated out of existence. The thought process seems to be that if you ban gays, then homosexuality (which they see as a choice) will some how disappear. Some of them have banned reporting on climate change, or even using the phrase "climate change".

You can judge how successful these campaigns to deny basic human nature are, because for many years we have had laws against murder and prostitution. And if you look around our society, you will surely agree that no-one ever gets murdered or becomes a prostitute.

Re: Indiana, WTF?

"Putting rich, egocentric, media hugging CEOs aside for a moment, if Indiana really has passed a law that legalizes discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people, then what the hell were Indiana's lawmakers thinking of?"

You _do_ know that Indiana was the state which passed a law making pi equal to 3.2, don't you? There is nothing too bizarre for Indiana to do. Nothing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill

Indiana lawmakers do not, cannot, think.

You think this is more true now than in the 1920s when Carnegie and Rockefeller ran thing?

Or the 1950s when "what was good for GM was good for the USA"

There are usually loud voices arguing against corporate influence of government. They must have taken the week off.

@Jai: Is the Shiawase Corporation happening already?

I thought we still had a few years yet before that was due to come to pass? If they're getting an early start on that whole FusterCluck, I need to move hoop to stockpile as much APDS rounds, Panther rounds, MedKit Supplies, & Trauma Patches I can find.

Thanks for the tip Chummer, I'll find some PayData to sling your way in gratitude...

Mines the one with the NovaTech ComLink in the pocket... =-)p

I take exception. Corporates are not people, they are businesses. I don't believe any corporation should be involved in politics or interpreting the Constitution as to rights, etc. Just because it might be the right thing to do in this case, can anyone guarantee that for the next thing?

Part of the reason we're in the mess we're in now is due to politics and business and also politics and religion. Those mixes are bad news for those who get in the way and it's generally the people.

While I'm on a rant.... those who want to practice this discrimination, etc... are they really that much better than those who want Sharia Law? I see the same narrow-mindedness in both groups.

Yeah... I'm a dreamer.