back to article Hello? Police? Yes, I'm a car and my idiot driver's crashed me

New cars sold in the EU will soon be able to call the emergency services without human intervention. A new law approved by MEPs on Tuesday will make the so-called eCall system obligatory for all new car models sold in the EU from April 2018. eCall uses the Europe-wide 112 emergency number to call the emergency services …

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  1. Vimes

    Given that US law both forces US companies to provide information and provides no opportunity to tell the customers that such demands have taken place, does this mean US car companies will be locked out the European market?

    1. The Crow From Below

      Huh? I have re-read your comment and the article multiple times and I am still none the wiser as to what you are trying to say or what point you are trying to make.

      US car companies have been fitting this sort of system to vehicles for years (OnStar). All the EU have done is make this mandatory.

      1. Vimes

        Using systems provided by anybody even remotely connected to the US means leaving yourself open to abuse by the US government, at least for non-Americans at any rate.

        This means that US government could potentially demand that the provider allows for this location functionality be switched on without the users knowledge and without the public authorities for the country concerned ever knowing what has happened.

        This rather makes a mockery of any suggestion that this will never be about watching us IMO, and given the sharing arrangements between organisations on both sides of the pond it will probably be a real boon for agencies keen to spy on people here too.

        1. The Crow From Below

          "Using systems provided by anybody even remotely connected to the US means leaving yourself open to abuse by the US government, at least for non-Americans at any rate."

          Any system? Like the internet that you are using right now?

          "This means that US government could potentially demand that the provider allows for this location functionality be switched on without the users knowledge and without the public authorities for the country concerned ever knowing what has happened."

          Like the US controlled GPS satellites everyone currently uses? Or the mobile phone in your pocket?

          "This rather makes a mockery of any suggestion that this will never be about watching us IMO, and given the sharing arrangements between organisations on both sides of the pond it will probably be a real boon for agencies keen to spy on people here too."

          You think they can't already via the smartphones that Google (American) and Apple (ditto) saturated the market with?

          I'm sorry but this sort of tin foil hattery is even more crazy than normal, especially when you could compare what you have said to ANY product with electronics inside (at some point they ALL come into contact with some company heavily connected to the USA). Your concerns are valid but are WAY too late to fear this sort of system when you already cart around everything they need to track you 24x7 anyway.

          1. Vimes

            You think they can't already via the smartphones that Google (American) and Apple (ditto) saturated the market with?

            I can always remove the battery if I'm that desperate, at least with my S5 at any rate.

            Will we be able to either remove or disable this system?

            1. fruitoftheloon
              Happy

              @Vimes - how to disable it...

              Vimes,

              as per usual, there will be a fuse somewhere which if removed would disable it, BUT it will probably knock-out other systems; plus I suspect that in the event of a claim, if it were not working, your insurers would use it as an excuse to refuse a claim.

              Or some clever folk will figure out how to reprogram it via OBD to disable it.

              Or if viable, isolate the antenna...

              Cheers,

              j

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: @Vimes - how to disable it...

                > Or if viable, isolate the antenna...

                And then die because you crashed at night, in heavy rain, in the middle of nowhere, and none noticed until three days latter¹.

                Back in my emergency services days, sometimes I really wanted to kick the shit out of some of the Darwin Award aspirants we came across, but we were there to save lives, not judge them. Which is why I won't say "be my guest".

                ¹ Seen that happen.

                1. fruitoftheloon
                  Thumb Up

                  @Ac: Re: @Vimes - how to disable it...

                  Ac,

                  Yup, that's each persons choice to make.

                  As a (former) risk consultant i have a body of knowledge about people and their stupidity.

                  Trouble is if no one ever pushed the(ir) envelope how would we innovate and evolve?

                  Cheers,

                  J

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: @Ac: @Vimes - how to disable it...

                    > Yup, that's each persons choice to make.

                    What would that be? If you mean intentionally disabling the thing, and someone else is involved in the accident, both were I used to be in the emergency services and in my current country of residence (and a few in between) you would be guilty of a crime known in French as "non assistance à personne en danger".

                    But I'll just say this: anyone seriously thinking of tampering with the thing is an utter idiot. That is indeed your problem, but if you end up in an accident and make life more difficult than it could have been to the rescue party, they will not be happy. You might have taken someone else's life because they could not respond in time because they were out there still looking for you. If you or someone else involved die, even if it's obvious that it was because of your own stupidity, it is still going to inflict frustration and maybe some degree of guilt on your rescuers. Not to mention everyone that you'll leave behind: family, friends, employer, the tax office, ...

                    So just don't fucking do it. If you're that paranoid about being tracked, work to get the laws changed and privacy strengthened instead of trying to get around it, which doesn't work anyway. And if you do have reason to be paranoid (activist/freedom-fighter/terrorist depending on your skin colour and the length of your beard), then you should have received training from your fellow conspirators on the relevant counter-measures and have the self-discipline to apply them strictly.

                    Says me who don't own a mobile phone, mind.

                    1. fruitoftheloon
                      Happy

                      @Ac: Re: @Ac: @Vimes - how to disable it...

                      Yup,

                      Such is free will.

                      Or perhaps don't buy a new/used car that can be used to track your movements/speed etc...

                      Cheers,

                      J

                    2. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                      Re: @Ac: @Vimes - how to disable it...

                      To me, liberty is more important than safety. Clearly to you safety is more important than liberty. Why should you get to impose your beliefs on me? By what moral or ethical right?

                      1. Vimes

                        Re: @Ac: @Vimes - how to disable it... @trevor_pott

                        It's odd that we have the right to refuse life saving medical treatment, yet on the other hand we're given no choice in the matter here.

                    3. Intractable Potsherd

                      Re: @Ac: @Vimes - how to disable it...

                      AC - merely because you have "seen some things" doesn't give you,or anyone else, the right to dictate how anyone else lives their life. I have said before on here (and elsewhere) that compulsory seat-belt and crash-helmet laws were and are bad, because the state is imposing its views on individuals who risk harm to no-one but themselves (and don't give me the "cost of care" argument - it won't wash). This is another situation where the state is deciding what risk I can take, when it is likely that I am the only one that will be affected by it. Your bizarre assertion that it will somehow be to the advantage of someone else - presumably who spun off the road on the wet and dark and wasn't found for three days - doesn't make any sense, and your appeal to some odd law in France (which suggests that it would be illegal not to have a mobile phone with sufficient charge to make an emergency call on your person at all times) just makes you sound ... well, mad, or an ex-policeman (since it is generally police officers complaining about "the horrors I've seen" - not ambulance/paramedic or fire-and-rescue officers who actually do the real work).

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: @Ac: @Vimes - how to disable it...

                        "I have said before on here (and elsewhere) that compulsory seat-belt and crash-helmet laws were and are bad, because the state is imposing its views on individuals who risk harm to no-one but themselves (and don't give me the "cost of care" argument - it won't wash)."

                        The same ones that allow smokers to access the health services for their self inflicted illnesses, but that's different cos the state can tax tobacco so yield a profit, plus save paying smokers pensions because they die before getting old enough to claim win-win for HMRC and the chancellor.

                        1. Trevor_Pott Gold badge

                          Re: @Ac: @Vimes - how to disable it...

                          Smoking affects more than the smoker. Second-hand smoke is a very real problem. A car that doesn't phone home after an accident doesn't cause the death of others. It just doesn't help save the idiots without it.

                2. T. F. M. Reader

                  Re: @Vimes - how to disable it...

                  > Or if viable, isolate the antenna...

                  And then die because you crashed at night, in heavy rain, in the middle of nowhere, and none noticed until three days latter.

                  With all due respect to your emergency services experience, the decision of whether or not to take that risk should be made by the car owner, not by an EU bureaucrat.

            2. tony2heads
              Black Helicopters

              Encase the box in a Faraday Cage

              Of course that will negate the safety excuse^W feature

          2. Vimes

            Your concerns are valid but are WAY too late to fear this sort of system when you already cart around everything they need to track you 24x7 anyway.

            So we should just sit back and let a bad situation get that little bit worse?

          3. T. F. M. Reader

            @The Crow From Below

            The American GPS satellites do not know where you are. You seem to not know the difference between GPS receivers and GPS trackers.

        2. Tom Samplonius

          "This means that US government could potentially demand that the provider allows for this location functionality..."

          And so could any European country. Search warrant law isn't that different in Europe.

      2. Vimes

        US car companies have been fitting this sort of system to vehicles for years

        The US aren't supposed to spy on it's own citizens.

        Foreigners on the other hand...

        1. Mad Chaz

          "aren't supposed to spy on it's own citizens."

          I think the last few years as shown us the difference between what they are SUPPOSED to do and what they actually do is about as big as the solar system.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Stasi State with enlightened self-interest ?

            The cars will then proceed to snitch you to the Police when it believes you are exceeding the speed limit by 2 mph.

            You will then receive an invitation to attend a "National Speed Awareness Scheme" course at £100 a pop or else get 3 points on your license, but the Police are under no obligation to produce any alleged incriminating evidence against you unless you challenge them in Court.

            The Association of Chief Police Officers appears to have a monopolistic pecuniary interest in the arrangements for the "National Speed Awareness Scheme".

        2. Angol

          Please, Vimes, that should be "its" not "it's".

    2. John 98

      US company's Europen subsidiary

      IF the US company (GM, Ford) uses a local subsidiary, that company is bound by EU law. The US can order the US owner to deliver, but the local staff and board will have a legal duty to refuse.The end ...

      1. Richard Taylor 2
        FAIL

        Re: US company's Europen subsidiary

        and where do you think thedata will be stored?

  2. zaax

    The local Police control centre gets enough hoax calls as it is with out this.

    With 40% of crash involving fire, do we need another source of ignition?

    1. John Arthur
      WTF?

      "With 40% of crash involving fire"

      Do you have a reference for that?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "With 40% of crash involving fire"

        "Do you have a reference for that?"

        Watching too many Hollywood car crashes

    2. Anonymous Coward
      WTF?

      Really?

      From a very long report: (http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/807675.pdf)

      Fires per 1,000

      passenger cars: 2.9

      light trucks: 2.9

      school buses: 2.4

      And EU car reg's tend to be a lot stricter than US one these days.

      1. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

        Well, I'd bet that more than 40% of motor vehicle crashes involve combustion. Does that count?

    3. Dave 126

      >With 40% of crash involving fire, do we need another source of ignition?

      Well, given the huge number of sensors, junctions and actuators on modern cars' internal networks, I can't see what difference this device will make re fire risk.

    4. Velv
      Boffin

      86.8% of statistics are made up on the spot (Vic Reeves)

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    FORD SYNC

    Meh, My ford has its new SYNC system in it that pairs my phone over bluetooth. It has a feature called "emergency assist". I believe if I wrap my little Ford around a tree the car uses my iPhone to inform the police of my stupidity on my behalf.

    My iPhone tracks my every move in much more detail anyway, who cares if the car is doing it too!?

    1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

      Re: FORD SYNC

      Yep, spotted than on new Fords. Seems to be something similar on some new Peugeot models as well.

      Does anybody know if this part of the same scheme or is it a separate initiative?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: FORD SYNC

        > Does anybody know if this part of the same scheme or is it a separate initiative?

        eCall applies to cars manufactured after October 2015, so not the same scheme. OTOH what I don't recall is whether the car is supposed to have its own on-board SIM.

    2. John 110

      Re: FORD SYNC

      Mine too, at least it would if my stupid smartphone bluetooth app would pop up the passcode box so that I could pair the phone to the car.

      (feel free to go off-topic to help...)

    3. Richard Jones 1
      WTF?

      Re: FORD SYNC

      I'm not sure if this is an incentive not to get a Ford or not to get anything apple. Since the last Ford I mistaken bought needed new automatic gearboxes more often than it needed an oil change I will never get another Ford. Since the apple range offers me only things for which I have no need at all, ditto for not having one of them.

      I do wonder how well the system will cope with the not spots which is where such assistance would be most effective and needed.

      No doubt I will need to ditch my old Nokia one day, but will I still need a mobile anyway by then? Hopefully usable but otherwise dumb phones will still be available.

      1. fruitoftheloon

        @Richard Jones: Re: FORD SYNC

        Richard,

        I suspect that a bit like the Amazon 'whispernet' the system will have a preferred network, but also be able to piggy-back onto others if needed.

        J

    4. Scott Wheeler

      Re: FORD SYNC

      > My iPhone tracks my every move in much more detail anyway, who cares if the car is doing it too!?

      Your iPhone tracks you because you have allowed it to do so. Mine doesn't because I've turned off that option.

  4. Sgt_Oddball

    How does it know for certain that you've wiped out as opposed to driving with enthusiasm?

    Also if it's a minor prang does let you cancel the call or at least state that you're fine and need a tow rather than a mobile bed?

    1. Colin Miller

      RTFA

      It uses the deceleration sensors that trigger the air-bag. If the airbag(s) are triggered, it phones 112 for you. If you are just driving with gusto, it doesn't. Simples.

    2. YetAnotherPasswordToRemeber

      The article states it calls the emergency services if the airbag sensors have triggered, so if you're driving with enthusiasm and the airbags have gone off then I suspect you're going to need the emergency services soon enough

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Of course...

        ... the NSA and GCHQ probably already have a backdoor to trigger setting off the Air Bags at the most opportune moment.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      > How does it know for certain that you've wiped out as opposed to driving with enthusiasm?

      If your enthusiasm reaches the level where airbags are triggered, it doesn't.

  5. James 51

    In theory it's a good idea but it's only a matter of time before it will be abused. How many times have agencies like the NSA and GCHQ promised they weren't doing it and then got caught doing it? And that's before you get into various police agencies as well. The hardware and software will need to be absolutely rock solid.

    It's a pity that things have gone so far that obvious advances in safety get thought of in the ways they will be used against us instead of to help us. Otherwise you could start thinking about things like weight sensors that could detect the number of people in the car, accelerometers that gave some idea of the force of the impact etc etc. Not spots might still pose a problem.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    MS car, in an emergency

    Select the "Crash icon" then chose "Do not crash", from the drop down hit "Apply brakes safely", when challenged say "Yes you are an authorised driver" and then wait while the license for "Emergency braking service" is checked.

    Do not power down your vehicle during this process.

  7. alain williams Silver badge

    Will it be easy to disable ?

    Will it be legal to rip it out of your car ?

    1. The Crow From Below

      Re: Will it be easy to disable ?

      Why would you want to? I know the whole "nothing to hide nothing to fear" counter arguments but seriously this is a system that can genuinely save your life and you want to get rip it out of a brand new car just because you forgot your tin foil hat today? it's 2015 and if you haven't worked out that all the worlds countries governments are spying on everybody 24/7 through every device that we have then you need to catch up.

    2. Anonymous John

      Re: Will it be easy to disable ?

      You're a UKIPPER or a Daily Mail reader, aren't you?

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