back to article hive mind informs climate change believers and sceptics

Both sides of the climate change debate tend towards group conciousness and define their positions based, in part, on hating the other side of the argument, according to a letter published in Nature: Climate Change. Public division about climate change rooted in conflicting socio-political identities(PDF), penned by folks from …

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  1. Thought About IT

    Scientists, eh!

    The kind of people who engage in the debate about climate change below the line in comment sections are never going to convert each other, so the conclusion of this research is correct. Note though that “Strategies for building support for mitigation policies should go beyond attempts to improve the public’s understanding of science, to include approaches that will change the relationship between the two groups ...” states the obvious: AGW climate change is real and must be tackled.

    1. dogged

      Re: Scientists, eh!

      > states the obvious: AGW climate change is real and must be tackled.

      Unless it isn't.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Scientists, eh!

        I'm also a bit sick of this childish idea that something I don't agree with is the object of hate.

        For goodness sake grow up, even my youngest child understands the difference between hating something, not liking it and criticising it.

        I'm quite capable of changing my mind in the climate change debate should a suitable argument be presented.

        1. Thought About IT

          Re: Scientists, eh!

          "I'm quite capable of changing my mind in the climate change debate should a suitable argument be presented."

          Well, you didn't say what state your mind is currently in, and posting as an AC doesn't allow previous comments to be taken into account, but I'd guess that the mountain of scientific evidence that current climate changes are due to our emissions of greenhouse gases doesn't count as a "suitable argument" to you.

        2. dan1980

          Re: Scientists, eh!

          @AC

          "I'm quite capable of changing my mind in the climate change debate should a suitable argument be presented."

          I find that statement to be rather unlikely.

          If you believe that humans are a relevant contributing factor in the climate; that our activity can and does have an effect, then you already believe that the evidence is overwhelming - that 'AGW' is a suitably well-established fact.

          If, on the other hand, you believe that either the climate is not changing or, that if it is, humans are not a relevant contributing factor, then you do not accept the evidence that has already been presented or do not believe that evidence even has been presented at all.

          In some ways, it's similar to the evolution-vs-creation debate. I don't mean to imply that those who deny that humans are a cause of climate change are necessarily fundamentalist Christians (because that is simply not true*), but often the argument sounds the same, with those who believe it is true saying "the evidence is in and it's overwhelming!" while the other side says "show me the evidence!".

          Its no wonder the public is so intractable and so whichever side you are on, my cowardly friend, as you say you will change your mind (rather than make it up) I can't see that that is all that likely - you either believe the evidence is overwhelming and so it would take a lot to get you to discount it or you don't trust/accept the evidence that has been so far claimed, in which case more evidence you don't accept is not going to do anything.

          And this is the problem - those who believe it is real cry that the deniers side is blindly ignoring good evidence, while those who do not believe it is real cry that the believers are blindly accepting bad evidence.

          * - Although evangelical Christians are least likely to believe in AGW, it is also correlated with age, education, and where you live, with the most likely to reject AGW being a 65+ evangelical Christian living in the rural south. Ref & ref.

          1. dogged

            Re: Scientists, eh!

            > And this is the problem - those who believe it is real cry that the deniers side is blindly ignoring good evidence, while those who do not believe it is real cry that the believers are blindly accepting bad evidence.

            And both are correct.

            Me? Unconvinced. But happy to support using less fossil fuel because that's cheaper. Not happy to support windmills that only work three days per year. Happy to support hydroelectrics which work (though your standard hippy has a divide by zero on those because they mean CHAINING GAIA WITH DAMS). Happy to support nuclear power which works and is safer than any other form of generation. Not happy with carbon trading and taxes on fuel because that's making poor people pay for your greenness.

            Not about to vote Green because not batshit insane.

        3. Mollie Norris

          Re: Scientists, eh!

          The science is indefensible; the IPCC has lost credibility, and US, UK and Australian government climate agencies have been caught in data-altering frauds, climategate, statements pulled out of thin air, etc. In spite of censorship and professional retaliation against scientists who refuse to support the fraud, the science scam has failed. The paper is one of a genre portraying ethical scientists as anti-social people who are aligned with their professional cohort and have no interest in the common good or the welfare of the planet. The support for climate change, in addition to scientists who want to keep their jobs, is from people with no scientific knowledge who have no clue regarding the fraud and who read only liberal media. The 97% consensus of scientists i really 41 out of the 13944 abstracts that skepticalscience's John Cook found using 'global warming' and 'climate change' as search terms. This link is the paper he published and shows that 2/3 of these abstracts didn't even mention AGW, but it doesn't include abstracts subtracted because they were written by psychologists or economists or scientists who had mot of their research rejected by journals, and those misclassified as supporting AGW when the authors didn't support it. The "97% consensus" is really a 0.3% consensus.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Scientists, eh!

        "Unless it isn't."

        That AGW is happening hasn't been in any scientific doubt whatsoever for at least a decade now.

        1. dogged

          Re: Scientists, eh!

          > That AGW is happening hasn't been in any scientific doubt whatsoever for at least a decade now.

          Everything is in scientific doubt. That's the whole point.

          Dammit, I hate religious fanatics.

    2. Mark Pawelek

      Re: Scientists, eh!

      If everyone agreed CAGW was happening, we still wouldn't agree on how to stop it. So the same problem arises - no agreement - in a different context.

  2. John Arthur
    Thumb Up

    "As a right-thinking Reg reader"

    "As a right-thinking Reg reader you may well think that this social science stuff is rubbish and simply isn't to be trusted".

    Yup!

    1. Chris Miller

      Re: "As a right-thinking Reg reader"

      The only possible interpretation of any research whatever in the 'social sciences' is: some do, some don't.

      Ernest Rutherford (Baron Rutherford of Nelson) 1871-1937

    2. Vladimir Plouzhnikov

      Re: "As a right-thinking Reg reader"

      Are there any left-thinking Reg readers lurking about?? I wonder...

      1. Ute Man

        Re: "As a right-thinking Reg reader"

        All the left thinking ones are increasingly irritated by the Registers continuing campaign on the side of AGW skepticism.

        I mean, it's one thing to be suitablly skeptical, it's another to be circling an ever shrinking drain of denialism. As a result, my register reading has gone from daily to once a month.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: "As a right-thinking Reg reader"

          @ Ute Man

          "All the left thinking ones are increasingly irritated by the Registers permission of discussion on the topic of AGW instead of blind obedience."

          FIFY

      2. Scott Hodgins

        Re: "As a right-thinking Reg reader"

        I came here from Google News and I'm somewhat of a lefty.

        Social sciences are broken. Here's my rendition of every sociology study's conclusion...

        "Our hypothesis could be correct or wrong - But it's certain we'll need more funding to be sure."

        As for global warming, the science behind it makes sense and the numbers back up the claims. I'm mostly fine with carbon taxes too. But the truth is, this isn't a problem we'll solve through taxation or penalties. The market will adopt electric vehicles once they're affordable. People want the future - it just needs to be within reach. Governments should really step in when it comes to deforestation. We need to plant more dense forest with rich biodiversity. We can turn that excess carbon into plant matter and wood. And if we run out of room to plant more trees, we just burry some and plant new trees on top. (Cutting down the old ones, of course, and burrying them anerobically so they don't rot)

        But hey, just in case you think I'm not really a lefty, I think everyone should get a basic income, all health care and education should be completely free, and I think the richest people should only be 100 times richer than the poorest people. (Extremities of wealth are problematic and often result in exploitation and increased crime rates)

    3. The Dude

      Re: "As a right-thinking Reg reader"

      Worse than merely Rubbish - much of this "social science" is proven to be lies and libel and slander, intended to shape people's opinions into acceptance of some particular collectivist ideological agenda. And yes, I do have the court documents and transcripts to show where this was proven.

  3. plrndl
    Holmes

    As icon

  4. Fading
    FAIL

    Small self selecting sample..

    Proves conclusion predetermined by researchers. Film at 11.

    1. Vladimir Plouzhnikov

      Re: Small self selecting sample..

      No, it's actually true. They are stating the obvious. I've come to the same conclusion myself, long time ago.

      Once one group starts to hate the other - there is nothing that the other says that can be right. They will then go to great lengths trying to rationalise how even an obvious truth stated by the other side is simply a cunning deception or an outright lie.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: No, it's actually true. They are stating the obvious.

        Lovely bit of self-satire there, Vlad, ... you agree with the study on pre-existing beliefs because it fits with your pre-existing beliefs. Fantastic. Have an upvote from me!

        1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

          Or maybe he has tried, time and again, to have a discussion with posters of a different opinion only to regularly find his points ignored, his mother insulted and his masculinity put in question.

          Whatever "side" you may be on on the question of AGW-now-rechristined-Climate-Change, you have to admit that no forum discussion is possible outside of people who agree with you. The entire subject is void of any more reasoning, it's just shouting louder than the other guy.

          A pitiful state for such an important question. Thankfully, it does not keep scientists from doing their job and continuing to gather data and analyze it.

          1. Mark 85

            Well reasoned. Now the commentard attacks on each other as to the validity of Climate Change, etc. will start and thereby prove the correctness of the study. Even if you take no stance, you will be attacked by someone who thinks you don't believe as you do and that you are an imbecile.

            It doesn't just apply to Climate Change. Pick almost any topic.. Microsoft, Apple, Linux, even Kim Dotcom, ad infinitum... there will be the same results.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Thankfully, it does not keep scientists from doing their job

            Except that it does. I've been in the room when the decision makers have discussed budgets at one of the agencies that frequently comes under fire. And it is clear that they are making their decisions on the basis that supporting the climate change agenda will get them more money and more people and increase their power. The science never comes into play.

          3. JohnMcL

            The problem is that far too many people who are incredibly ignorant about science and data analysis think themselves qualified to tell the public their misguided and ill-informed (and often baseless) opinion.

            It doesn't help though that those who comment on blogs usually need to condense their argument into 100 words or so rather than show their detailed reasoning or supporting material.

      2. dan1980

        Re: Small self selecting sample..

        One of the big problems is when people start accusing others of having an agenda - the 'deniers' are just corporate shills looking to avoid or repeal legislation that might eat into big-business profits and prevent growth, while the 'believers' are part of some leftist-elitist bully mob forcing some doctrinal belief on everyone else or after grant money or, as with the deniers, corporate shills, but for the 'green' industries that stand to gain from regulations and legislation.

        Once you do that, you have immediately moved from debating truth or science to an attempt to 'poison the well' - your opponents are selfish people pursuing selfish ends and so you can't trust anything they say.

        Both sides do it and, the sad fact is that both sides have a point and some of those who heavily push one way or the other are indeed in it for the money and do distort the facts and discount good evidence or truss up bad to make their point.

        But, just because some greedy, unscrupulous dicks are willing to discount positive results, doesn't mean that all discounted results are actually good results that have been unjustly discounted and just because some other greedy, unscrupulous dicks are willing to inflate or misrepresent neutral or negative results doesn't mean that all positive results are actually invalid.

  5. Vladimir Plouzhnikov

    Solution?

    “...to include approaches that will change the relationship between the two groups,”

    So, give them a flower?

    1. Vladimir Plouzhnikov

      Re: Solution?

      What, downvoter, you disagree with the God of Hellfire?

  6. Paul Shirley

    what's most depressing

    ... Is the reality or not of agw hardly matters. The technology we could have started creating 25+ years ago to deal with the problem would have made us all better off *even if there's no problem*. Instead we ended with denial shortchanging us of investment and believers pushing through any desperate political fix they could as time ran down.

    We know it's worth dumping carbon fuels, it's probably really worth bankrupting many of the suppliers along the way and taking out their corrupt states and terrorist support. None of it depends on agw. But we just have bickering aresholes delaying like it was an Olympic sport.

    Sickening tribalism.

    1. JohnMcL

      Re: what's most depressing

      Paul, the gaping flaw in your argument is that to take the action that you say we should have taken would very likely have incurred enormous costs for little if any benefit. You also seem to think that global warming (or whatever you like to call it) will be overwhelmingly negative. Should any global warming happen there will certainly be benefits to some people, such as increase agriculture further north (Canada, Europe, Asia) and statistics show that the deaths from cold far out-number deaths from heat.

  7. codejunky Silver badge

    Shocked

    So the MMCC co2 theory, AGW, global warming, global cooling, climate change, we all gonna die, we all gonna fry, we all gonna drown, nothing ever changes debate between those with absolute certainty based on their choice of 'scientific' cherry pick is actually 2 cults arguing which religion is right? I am not surprised.

    The problem unfortunately is that one cult has power and are doing the best they can to sacrifice as many people as possible to appease their beliefs and force it on the rest of us. The other cult sound just as mad but hold no danger.

    As for science it continues on trying to understand the way things work. The conclusion is not available before the work is done and our understanding about our little world is increasing. Like most religions both cults will justify their beliefs regardless of whatever facts are actually discovered whenever that happens.

    The only thing I am certain of is that the term 'scientist' has had its reputation very badly damaged by the snake oil pushers. Especially from the group who are currently pushing their beliefs on everyone else.

    1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

      Re: Shocked

      The only thing I am certain of is that the term 'scientist' has had its reputation very badly damaged by the snake oil pushers. Especially from the group who are currently pushing their beliefs on everyone else.

      This gives absolutely no hint as to which side of the fence you're on. Well played.

      1. codejunky Silver badge

        Re: Shocked

        @ Sorry that handle is already taken.

        "This gives absolutely no hint as to which side of the fence you're on. Well played."

        Good because I dont have a side. I trust in facts and science, I have no interest in joining either cult. Either cult pushing its beliefs would be bad for fact and science and of course the planet.

      2. Mark 85

        Re: Shocked

        Why does one have to announce their stand other than believers from both sides will pounce and clobber the poor bastard for not believing one way or the other. This much like the old experiment where a guy stands on a street corner with a blank sign and takes crap from nearly everyone for what's not on the sign.

      3. JohnMcL

        Re: Shocked

        Can we take legal action against certain "experts" for scientific fraud, after all they seem to benefit from the porkies they tell?

        The problem is that I can't see scientific bodies taking such action because it would have a negative impact on most, if not all, of their members because research funding would be cut and reputations trashed. I also can't see governments taking action because the politicians fear what disgruntled brainwashed voters might do.

    2. Thomas Steven 1

      Re: Shocked

      The only worthy sacrifice is a blood sacrifice, and the most worthy blood sacrifice is a human sacrifice

  8. mememine69

    34 years of needless CO2 panic and CO2 death threats is a pure war crime in history

    You "believers" exaggerate science's "could be" consensus because not one CO2 scientist has ever said their scientific method won't allow them to say it's "proven" even though it's a "possible threat to the planet" and it "could be too late".

    So how close to unstoppable warming will science drag us before they finally say it's "proven" that the end is near so we can end this costly debate to SAVE THE PLANET from evil Human CO2.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: 34 years of needless CO2 panic and CO2 death threats is a pure war crime in history

      Remember though, you can't pick and choose. If you don't like these "scientists" with their "method" you need to avoid anything derived from the scientific method. That certainly includes using a computer, which will save the rest of us from having to listen to your tosh.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        This AC's post is a perfect example of what the article was talking about

        Ah, the old "if you don't like science, you can't use anything created by science". As much as I loathe the anti-vaxxers, I don't suggest that because they don't trust their doctor's recommendation on vaccinating their children, that they should visit witch doctors or whack jobs that heal using crystals instead of MDs if their child has a broken arm or pneumonia.

        The debate for many people is religious, you are either on the side of AGW or you are against it. I guess that's true even for me. Religiously I'm agnostic, and I think that defines my position pretty well on AGW. Maybe if I was strongly religious I'd be on one side or another, either screaming "the end is nigh unless we reform our evil ways!" from the rooftops or claiming it is a gigantic conspiracy to control our economic future.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          re. anti-vaxxers

          The vaccination debate reminds me very much of the AGW debate: scientific consensus battling unshakeable doctrine.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: re. anti-vaxxers

            There's a big difference between something absolutely proven like the efficacy of vaccines, and conclusions based on a combination of proven facts (like CO2's effect) and unproven theories about how the atmosphere works plugged into complex and constantly updated computer models. Even a climate scientist would admit equating the two is unreasonable.

    2. Angry Bunyip

      Re: 34 years of needless CO2 panic and CO2 death threats is a pure war crime in history

      Mathematics and Science approach proof differently. In Mathematics, once an idea is proven it is proven for all time and all circumstances. Mathematical proof is absolute. We can be sure of this in maths because it deduces statements based on previous statements that are known to be true. Aha you say but what about the first statements. Well these are called axioms and are supposed to be so obvious that they are not required to be proven (yes yes I know, I am sorry to all you mathematicians out there) for those more interested:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_proof

      Mathematics, however, is not science. Mathematics is a tool used by science, but is not itself a Science. Generally scientists deal with evidence and mathematicians with proof. Mathematical proof and scientific proof are not the same thing at all. Sometimes if a scientific view is confirmed over a long period of time by lots and lots of evidence it becomes (rather confusingly in my opinion) known as a scientific “fact” and/or scientifically “proved”. What is really meant is that a particular hypothesis has been verified using current evidence. This is the difference between an mathematical and an empirical proof.

  9. Joe Harrison

    I don't know for sure but...

    I don't know anything about planetary climatology, how the weather works, or anything like that. So I also have genuinely no idea whether "global warming caused by humans" is true or not true.

    However - the idea seemed to come from nowhere and provided the perfect excuse for the introduction of yet another tax ("carbon tax") by people I don't trust. This does tend to colour my judgement quite a lot. Follow the money.

    1. Thought About IT

      Re: I don't know for sure but...

      "the idea seemed to come from nowhere"

      Just because you don't know (or can't be arsed to find out) where an idea comes from doesn't mean it comes from nowhere. The basic physics of greenhouse gases was first proposed by Joseph Fourier in 1824 and has not been disputed by reputable scientists since. Without Fourier, we might still be struggling to solve partial differential equations and the signal processing problems in mobile phones, so I wouldn't like to argue with him about the greenhouse effect!

      1. JohnMcL

        Re: I don't know for sure but...

        Fouriers notions were only theory, as were those from Arrhenius. In theory, theory and practice and no different but in practice they are. About 17 years without global warming despite all the CO2 in the atmosphere makes that perfectly clear.

      2. ElectricRook

        Re: I don't know for sure but...

        If this is the foundation of your belief system Without Fourier, we might still be struggling to solve partial differential equations and the signal processing problems in mobile phones, so I wouldn't like to argue with him about the greenhouse effect!

        Then Einstein's belief in Intelligent Design must put you directly into that camp?

  10. The Dude

    Cultural marxism

    reading between the lines, it sounds like the methods of cultural Marxism will be even more diligently brought to bear, to manufacture some consent for regulation/control/taxation. The APGW scam must be really important to somebody.

    1. Thought About IT

      Re: Cultural marxism

      "The APGW scam must be really important to somebody."

      While all attempts to prevent controls on greenhouse gas emissions must be really important to the fossil fuel industries.

      No wonder they've employed the best propagandists, who honed their skills in denying any connection between tobacco and cancer, to spread FUD about AGW, and made massive political contributions to James Inhofe, chair of the United States Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works, who is very obliging about blocking any action.

      1. The Dude

        Re: Cultural marxism

        It is important that we don't go charging lemming-like over the cliff into climate tyranny because some emotional strings have been tugged. Mostly the emotion of "fear", but the important things is to look carefully at the facts, and not let ourselves be bamboozled into foolish actions that might very well have effects that are far worse than anything the climate fear mongers and alarmists have in mind.

        If, as much of the science is now indicating, the sun is due for another Maunder Minimum, then we will all be very glad of even the tiny additional greenhouse warming provided by CO2.

        When the APGW debate got political, alarm bells went off - that we were probably being conned. Upon further investigation, not only are we being conned for things like carbon taxes and fuel surcharges, but the smart money is probably investing in land closer to the equator while the gullible sell cheap and buy closer to the pole. It is really one of the oldest con-games around.

      2. JohnMcL

        Re: Cultural marxism

        What a lot of (insert word here)! Fossil fuel companies have been big backers of Greenpeace etc and for many years an Exxon employee (Khesoggi, I think) was active in the writing of IPCC reports. You also seem ignorant about tobacco and cancer although its unclear if you mean for smokers (connection true but in legal action people are allowed to make any defence they wish and in this case there was an obligation to stockholders) or for second-hand smoke (the key studies of which were flawed, as S. Fred Singer observed).

        If you have any evidence that CO2 poses a significant danger then try posting that instead of baseless ad hominem attacks, actions that I think are very characteristic of "believers" but missing from the study reported in the article.

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